#dev 2024-10-03

2024-10-03 UTC
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[tantek] I mean "fine" depending on context / your intent
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[Joe_Crawford] I read a value of me nofollow is "I assert that represents me but don't programmatically load it"
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[Joe_Crawford] Is that what it means?
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[tantek] problem is that misuse/overuse of nofollow means it's meaningless now
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[tantek] [mattl] I'd say "no" to "nofollow" on user profile pages
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[tantek] nofollow was meant for 3rd party links. your personal site link on your profile is not 3rd party
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[tantek] like anything a site makes you create an account / sign-into in order to link is not third party, it's first party (coming from the account owner), or at worst second party, if you consider the website owner itself the first party
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[tantek] problem is that "nofollow" got warped by Google's implementation thereof into people using it as "SEO" to "retain" more of the inbound Google "link juice", not as a way of disclaiming 3rd party links (e.g. links in comments)
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jimw they're trying to steal our precious google juices.
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[tantek] so every social media slio slapped "nofollow" on every link from everyone
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[tantek] and the original meaning / utility was lost
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catgirlin.space nofollow had a different meaning than “don’t pass on search reputation to this link”?
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[tantek] yes
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[tantek] it meant, "this is third party content / links and not to something intentionally linked to by the author of this site or the owner of this account"
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[tantek] what is nofollow
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Loqi nofollow is a rel value meant to stop search engines imputing endorsement from a link https://indieweb.org/nofollow
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[tantek] ugh
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[mattl] sticking with nofollow for now because people were registering http://libre.fm accounts and pointing their spam/porn pages from their profile and nofollow stopped them from doign that
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[tantek] "Typical use cases include links created by 3rd party commenters on blogs, or links the author wishes to point to, but avoid endorsing"
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[tantek] the answer to "people are registering accounts and violating our ToS" is not, sprinkly some tech, but rather, ban the account for violating the ToS
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[mattl] I have 2 hours a day to work on this... I'd rather not spent 2 hours a day scouring profiles.
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[tantek] or if you want a purely technical solution, require some kind of "leveling up" before they can post links. some form of (hard to game) labor or accomplishments. that will be enough for (vast majority of) link spammers to give up
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[mattl] yeah, right now they have to listen to some songs before the links show up 😉
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[tantek] hah
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[tantek] amazing
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catgirlin.space i somehow haven’t had any link spammers on splashcat…
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[mattl] sorry [Joe_Crawford]
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[Joe_Crawford] Sorry?
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[mattl] https://github.com/foocorp/hacienda/issues/39
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Loqi [preview] [mattl] #39 Personal website checkin
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[Joe_Crawford] No worries at all. 🙂 I'm aware that it's code in development Brother Doctor Matt
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[mattl] oh its just that you need to listen to some songs to keep the spammers out
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[Joe_Crawford] I added the integration with http://last.fm - I'm guessing that that is Libre -> Last and not Last -> Libre
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[mattl] correct. I'd like to make it both at some point.
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[mattl] Just added rel="me" support for Fediverse links on http://Libre.fm profiles too
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[mattl] https://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flibre.fm%2Fuser%2Fmattl
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[Joe_Crawford] I was looking at https://github.com/digitalheir/lastfm-to-librefm-exporter a few days ago and suspect it's too long in the tooth to be functional again
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Loqi [preview] [digitalheir] lastfm-to-librefm-exporter: 🎶 Easily export your tracks from Last.fm and import them to Libre.fm or Scrobble.fm
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[mattl] it actually may still work, but i do want to address this properly
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[Joe_Crawford] In the meantime I'm scrobbling with good ol' Web Scrobbler
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[Joe_Crawford] They have made it available in Safari which is so awesome! When I was contributing to it it was Chrome only.
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[mattl] love web scrobbler
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catgirlin.space is there some way to do it with apple music? (tbh still not rlly sure what scrobbling is…. sounds like a funny word though :3)
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[tantek] what is scrobble
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Loqi 🎧 A scrobble (AKA a listen) is a passive type of post used to publish a song (music or audio track, including concert recordings or DJ sets) or podcast that you have listened to https://indieweb.org/scrobble
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[Joe_Crawford] https://web-scrobbler.com is what I used to put some scrobbles through to http://libre.fm just today. I am also a longtime http://last.fm user. And my http://libre.fm scrobbles now push through to my http://last.fm account as well. As to Apple Music the top google answer to that question is a reddit page which may have clients. I know I can use a lastfm iOS app that can backfill recent things I played with http://Music.app up to it.
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[mattl] do you remember the name of that app?
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[Joe_Crawford] To my knowledge it's the offcial http://Last.fm app. It has a button in the main interface called "Scan" which checks whatever Apple APIs there are are submits
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[Joe_Crawford] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/last-fm/id1188681944
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nsmsn I currently use the official Last.fm app for iOS, which also requires you to add music to your Apple Music library in order to scrobble.
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nsmsn I also use https://finale.app/ which works similarly with the Apple Music library.
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nsmsn [edit] I also use https://finale.app/ which works similarly with the Apple Music library.
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nsmsn Finale is useful for scrobbling my CD and vinyl collection, and the radio too.
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[tantek] Anyone here of this or know what protocol it's based on? https://docs.polycentric.io/
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[tantek] hear* of this
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epoch I hadn't yet. looks interesting.
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[KevinMarks] https://hachyderm.io/@jenniferplusplus/113229151523407073
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sebbu2 I miss a last.fm integration on youtube/twitch/other video/streaming sites
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Loqi misses a last too
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[Murray] I use WebScrobbler on Firefox for YouTube, works pretty well, though occasionally false-positives on podcast/vidcasts for some reason
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[snarfed] [tantek] looks like its own protocol: https://docs.polycentric.io/protocol/
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[snarfed] looks relay-based, maybe similar to Nostr
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[snarfed] maybe with gossip/set reconciliation between relays ("servers"). can't tell for sure yet
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catgirlin.space ```
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catgirlin.space [GET 302 "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_12_6) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/76.0.3809.132 Safari/537.36 p3k/XRay"] /@catgirlin.space 2.5865919997158926ms
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catgirlin.space [GET 200 "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_12_6) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/76.0.3809.132 Safari/537.36 p3k/XRay"] / 26.345918000515667ms
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catgirlin.space ```
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catgirlin.space aaronpk any idea why xray would be spamming me with these requests? [woozycat](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1183246214595092561.webp?size=48&quality=lossless&name=woozycat)
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catgirlin.space [edit] aaronpk any idea why xray would be spamming me with these requests? [woozycat](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1183246214595092561.webp?size=48&quality=lossless&name=woozycat)
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catgirlin.space ```
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catgirlin.space [GET 302 "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_12_6) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/76.0.3809.132 Safari/537.36 p3k/XRay"] /@catgirlin.space 2.5865919997158926ms
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catgirlin.space [GET 200 "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_12_6) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/76.0.3809.132 Safari/537.36 p3k/XRay"] / 26.345918000515667ms
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catgirlin.space ```
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artlung Thanks nsmsn[d] I'm going to check out Finale.
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artlung nsmsn[d]++
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Loqi nsmsn[d] has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (7 in all channels)
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nsmsn On the subject of libre.fm Is there currently a way to export scrobbles from last.fm into libre.fm?
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[Joe_Crawford] At the moment I think no. I mentioned a tool on GitHub yesterday but the endpoints aren't working. But that's something I want to explore too.
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[mattl] Yeah, I want you to be able to put in your username and we'll do the rest.
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[mattl] This morning I did a ton of work overhauling the broken UI aspects on http://Libre.fm
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nsmsn oooh that will be pretty nice.
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[mattl] there's also http://savemyscrobbles.com which I want to build into the new http://libre.fm
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[Joe_Crawford] In terms of social graph stuff Nick, on Lastfm I see "Your compatibility with nsmsn is High. You both listen to They Might Be Giants, New Order and The Kinks"
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nsmsn 👍 love the Kinks
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[mattl] so much of http://Libre.fm was made listening to those bands
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[mattl] and Bishop Allen
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[mattl] [Joe_Crawford] https://libre.fm/user/artlung looking good now
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[Joe_Crawford] Great work on your part sir
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[mattl] I've done more web dev since XOXO than in the previous six/seven years
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nsmsn [mattl] ++ ❤️
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Loqi [mattl] has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (19 in all channels)
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[mattl] you should add your mastodon/fediverse profile URL to your profile, Joe..
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Loqi yea
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[Joe_Crawford] yeah, Loqi. and yeah, Matt. Added.
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nsmsn Are there directions to scrobble on libre.fm? I see Joe already has some activity
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[Joe_Crawford] I used web scrobbler on Safari and listened on YouTube (permissions must be granted) and on LiveOne (formerly LiveXLive, formerly Slacker Radio, a former employer) https://web-scrobbler.com
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[Joe_Crawford] There are settings for any particular website. And there are thresholds in WS as to how much must be listened to to count as a scrobble (usually 50% of a song). If you listen to 10 seconds and skip it ought not to count.
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nsmsn Oh so I can scrobble to libre and last at the same time?
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nsmsn I already use WS on Firefox...
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[Joe_Crawford] If you add Last to Libre, yes.
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[mattl] yes... anything you send to http://libre.fm can be posted to your http://last.fm account automatically. edit your profile
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[mattl] and you'll see a connections button
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[mattl] https://www.last.fm/user/mattl -- i haven't scrobbled to http://last.fm directly in over a decade
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[tantek] [mattl]++ for all the updates and progress on librefm++
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Loqi librefm has 1 karma over the last year
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Loqi [mattl] has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (20 in all channels)
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[Joe_Crawford] _"Your compatibility with mattl is Super. You both listen to They Might Be Giants, New Order and Pulp."_
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[mattl] you'll note we're actively linking to http://indieweb.org on most pages now
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nsmsn ah-ha! thanks, [mattl] ++
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[mattl] http://Libre.fm supports the IndieWeb mission and the Fediverse and is supported by Bytemark and The Internet Archive
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[tantek] amazing
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[mattl] http://1800www.com will be my personal appeal to get a personal website
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nsmsn Brilliant. I'm set up with my first libre.fm scrobble: https://libre.fm/user/nsmsn (listening to Bandcamp radio because I know it works wih WS)
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[tantek] [mattl]++ so good
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[tantek] would suggest making it an ordered list and adding checkboxes so people can check it off as they make progress (and have the list item light up with a subtle green background)
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[tantek] also a left-aligned (within a page-centered box) list
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[tantek] needs link to its GitHub
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[tantek] the funny thing about "1800www" is that it's 7 letters, so you could technically get the phone number +1-800-1800www as well 😂
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[mattl] remember i'm sending everyone* who does this a guitar ;)
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[mattl] • nobody
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[Joe_Crawford] I'll be a pendant about the 1. 1 is not a valid first number of a US phone number prefix. Sorry about that. I do like the idea of a GNU's not Unix type 1-800 number though.
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[mattl] 1 is the country code?
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[Joe_Crawford] In that case, yes.
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[Joe_Crawford] Though for 800 and 866 in the US a "1" might be a different sort of trigger.
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[Joe_Crawford] Strict phone number validation is a huge pain in the ass because phone number rules change with regularity.
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[Joe_Crawford] I have used https://github.com/google/libphonenumber and lived to tell about it.
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[mattl] My phone number as a child went from 3 digits to 6 and then a few million people bought cellphones
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Loqi [preview] [google] libphonenumber: Google's common Java, C++ and JavaScript library for parsing, formatting, and validating international phone numbers.
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nsmsn [mattl] Does my fediverse profile start with an @, or is it a full https URL?
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[Joe_Crawford] it is great that they added https://github.com/google/libphonenumber/blob/master/FALSEHOODS.md to their repo. I hope it does some good for some poor schmuck is adding phone numbers on accounts and has to explain to their boss why using a phone number for a particular purpose won't work.
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[Joe_Crawford] I think https://example.org/@user is the intent. But functionally I also see @user@example.org sometimes. But Link implies protocol first.
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[tantek] [Joe_Crawford] that's a good list and nothing I disagree with (unlike the unsourced "falsehoods about names" essay which contains numerous assumptions and errors)
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[tantek] nsmsn either should work, mostly it's a style / semantic thing in comms, e.g. do you mean to reference an (active) entity (use an @-@) or do you mean to reference a destination (use an absolute https:// URL)
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[mattl] microformats h-card supported added! https://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flibre.fm%2Fuser%2Fmattl
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[tantek] e.g. if you meant to @-me you could say @tantek.com whereas if you only mean to cite my home page, you could say https://tantek.com/
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[tantek] they are the same
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Loqi [preview] Tantek Çelik
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[tantek] (under the covers they access the same URL, and they should webmention the same as well)
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[tantek] [mattl]++
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[tantek] what is librefm
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "librefm" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "librefm is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] wat
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[mattl] what is http://libre.fm
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aaronpk @catgirl not sure what you mean by "spamming" but it's used by webmention.io among other things so could be a number of reasons it would be requesting your site
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[tantek] what is http://libre.fm
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[tantek] sigh
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[tantek] what is http://libre.fm?
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[tantek] what is librefm
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Loqi libre.fm is a free and open source scrobbling service that is IndieWeb friendly https://indieweb.org/librefm
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aaronpk Do I need to update Loqi's what is to support URLs because of slack auto linking?
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[tantek] at least detecting http: since it's unusual that someone here would type that in a what is
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nsmsn [tantek] I think I figured out the fediverse profile field on libre.fm... I used the https link. I am just puzzled about the fediverse conventions sometimes.
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[tantek] I believe Slack is auto-linking with http:
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[tantek] nsmsn welcome to the club (being puzzled 🙂 )
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[mattl] the field is very old... it'll take any URL.
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[tantek] [mattl] stubbed, please feel free to expand! https://indieweb.org/libre.fm
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[mattl] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2024/10/dev-20241003-171044-screenshot_2024-10-03_at_1.10.39___pm.png
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nsmsn Updated my /links page with my libre.fm profile! https://nicksimson.com/links/
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nsmsn https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577430886350869/1291448056822239242/Screenshot_2024-10-03_at_1.12.26_PM.png?ex=6700223a&is=66fed0ba&hm=28ce82c61b19dd982b7f445060f851fdc4e6b50fc27a43a1c19f63a1cd463c14&
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nsmsn [edit] Updated my /links page with my libre.fm profile! https://nicksimson.com/links/
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nsmsn https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577430886350869/1291448056822239242/Screenshot_2024-10-03_at_1.12.26_PM.png?ex=6700223a&is=66fed0ba&hm=28ce82c61b19dd982b7f445060f851fdc4e6b50fc27a43a1c19f63a1cd463c14&
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nsmsn [edit] Updated my /links page with my libre.fm profile! https://nicksimson.com/links/
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nsmsn https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577430886350869/1291448056822239242/Screenshot_2024-10-03_at_1.12.26_PM.png?ex=6700223a&is=66fed0ba&hm=28ce82c61b19dd982b7f445060f851fdc4e6b50fc27a43a1c19f63a1cd463c14&
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[mattl] woohoo!
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[mattl] and glad to see you're already on https://github.com/foocorp/hacienda/issues/39
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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Loqi [preview] [mattl] #39 Personal website checkin
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nsmsn Thanks for the help. I'm excited to support this project
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[tantek] [Joe_Crawford] I opened a PR on that link you shared re: falsehoods about phone numbers: https://github.com/google/libphonenumber/pull/3663
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[tantek] aw crap it's Google OSS project with a hefty CLA that I don't have time to review or commit to. I've had this problem in the past. I wish they would simply allow creative commons based contributions to docs.
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[tantek] publicly telling them so: https://github.com/google/libphonenumber/pull/3663#issuecomment-2391943786
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[tantek] !tell aaronpk heads-up: SocialCG/IndieAuth coordination landed into the FedID WG charter: https://github.com/w3c/charter-drafts/pull/587
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [preview] [tantek] #587 [wg/fedid] Coordination: add SocialCG/IndieAuth, drop all rel=nofollow
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[snarfed] trwnh interesting question from #indieweb re which post type is a post with name but no content. content but no name is a note, but I don't think we have much precedent for the inverse
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[snarfed] I guess strictly speaking https://ptd.spec.indieweb.org/#algorithm says it's a note
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trwnh yeah ptd says to treat the summary as content. which makes it an "article" bc it has a name that isn't a prefix of the assumed content.
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[snarfed] oh I was thinking name but no content or summary
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[snarfed] no matter
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gRegor trwnh, Is the concern how your posts will appear in a social reader?
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gRegor You could try plugging the URL into https://monocle.p3k.io/preview to see how that renders it
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trwnh name without any summary or content is also possible but i havent used it yet [snarfed]
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trwnh thanks gRegor i'll test against monocle later
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gRegor name only would be a note. Here's an example of how that looks: https://monocle.p3k.io/preview?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2F2024%2F10%2Fday-2-of-weird%2F
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gRegor And an example of an article: https://monocle.p3k.io/preview?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2F2024%2F06%2Fgiving-pop-music-a-chance%2F
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[tantek] !tell [snarfed] looks like another post of mine didn't make it into various hashtags and profiles via BF, and this time I did NOT link to https Kevin Marks 😕 https://indieweb.social/tags/w3cTPAC and https://w3c.social/@tantek.com@tantek.com (empty 😢 ) have no sign of my newest post which Bridgy Fed says it delivered to 317 instances
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] I think this was my first post attempting to federate since the weird deletion thing so maybe something is still stuck / broken?
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[tantek] All other recent posts were only responses e.g. using Bridgy Publish to GitHub
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[snarfed] Ugh, sigh. Yeah I see what you're seeing, inbox deliveries generally got HTTP 202 responses, but the post isn't visible
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[snarfed] I've sent `Create`s manually from your actor since the bug, and they showed up, so I don't know about this post
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[tantek] Sorry to always be the problem poster 🫠
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[snarfed] not your fault!
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[mattl] Updated http://libre.fm so when you're logged in with 0 scrobbles it prompts you to try Web Scrobbler and try it out.
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[mattl] When you finally scrobble 1 song, you see this...
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[mattl] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2024/10/dev-20241003-231139-screenshot_2024-10-03_at_7.11.32___pm.png
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[mattl] Both independent of each other and will go away when you add URLs to your profile
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[tantek] Nice!
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[tantek] [snarfed] trying another slightly shorter post to see what happens (and give you another data point) https://tantek.com/2024/277/t2/october-blogtober-indieweb
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] Happy October! For some reason this month has a plethora of daily blogging or other creativity prompts. Here’s a list of the ones I found so far: * #Blogtober (consider this post my first for this, retroactively day 1) * Inktober — https://inkt...
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[tantek] it's federating right now on BF in case you can see anything in real time
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[tantek] also not showing up on https://w3c.social/@tantek.com@tantek.com or any tags
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[tantek] so that's two posts
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Loqi [preview] Tantek Çelik
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[tantek] shall I try for three or is that enough data to go on?
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[snarfed] thanks for the data point
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[snarfed] it helps, but sadly I don't have any more data to go on, at least from Bridgy Fed alone. inbox deliveries are still returning HTTP 202
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[snarfed] I guess the next step would be to find a Mastodon instance admin who can dive into their logs and db and debug it with me
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[tantek] Can you file a bug on Mastodon to at least get someone's attention? That Mastodon is returning an HTTP 202 for inbox deliveries but then not showing them on profile pages or hashtag pages on instances that definitely have followers of my profile?