#dev 2025-02-06

2025-02-06 UTC
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carrvo I figured out what was wrong with trying to override the DNS on my box! So now I *can* log into external services.
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carrvo However, IndieLogin.com is not working with my MIndie and my logs are not helpful (after a few iterations). aaronpk, might there be more insight from the logs on the other side of the requests?
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_pi_r2_0[d] TIL `font-family: system-ui, sans-serif;`
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aaronpk @carrvo what's your domain? i might be able to find some logs
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carrvo aaronpk[d] turner.enemyterritory.org
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aaronpk hm, i see several errors, the most recent is: `Invalid response from IndieAuth server {"response":{"invalid_request":""}}`
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aaronpk IIRC the part of that coming from your server is `{"invalid_request":""}`
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carrvo So nothing more than it displays. I'll have to try more on my end tomorrow then. I got to the point where my logs think that the code is invalid at the last step.
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carrvo aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 56 karma in this channel over the last year (138 in all channels)
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carrvo Hmm...looks like the MinToken side is expecting a scope? https://github.com/carrvo/mindie-idp/blob/7b48896bfe31c6b022b75e26594ce045b7f1e22e/mintoken/endpoint.php#L143
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carrvo [edit] Hmm...looks like the MinToken side is expecting a scope? https://github.com/carrvo/mindie-idp/blob/7b48896bfe31c6b022b75e26594ce045b7f1e22e/mintoken/endpoint.php#L143
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carrvo I bet IndieLogin.com does not use scopes and I did not test that!
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aaronpk oh, yeah it doesn't ask for a scope because it doesn't need your name or email
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carrvo I'm a bit surprised that my code would require it.
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carrvo Yup. Stuck an untested bandaid on prod that worked with IndieLogin.com!
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[tantek] PGN has a decent set of properties, and the moves portion is nicely human + machine readable.
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[tantek] However its front matter has an awkward one-off baroque syntax that would benefit from YAMLization at a minimum
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[tantek] I think I may experiment with plain text then minimal semantic markup then minimal h-x-chess-game experimental classes and see how easy it is to convert to PGN
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[tantek] Does anyone else post "moved" of any kind of game on their site?
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[tantek] moves*
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carrvo aaronpk, I just looked at indieauth-client-php (what I tested against) and it never touches the token endpoint when there are no scopes. Is there a particular reason why IndieLogin.com is different?
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aaronpk oh, indieauth-client-php might be a version out of date
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carrvo 😢
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aaronpk indielogin.com uses the library but not the quickstart method in the library, because it tries to be more helpful in providing debugging error messages so i needed to go one layer deeper
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carrvo Then a vanilla SelfAuth+MinToken should not be compatible with IndieLogin.com. If there is no token endpoint, does it still fall back to the other one?
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Chailotl Hi, I'm having trouble trying to get indieauth.com to see my `rel="me"` links on my website, it also fails to recognize my `rel="pgpkey"` as well
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carrvo aaronpk++ I have noticed difficulties retrieving errors. I may raise a PR/MR for some log messages that I have found particularly useful.
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Loqi aaronpk has 57 karma in this channel over the last year (139 in all channels)
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Chailotl What's weird is that micropub.rocks was able to see my `rel` endpoints just fine
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aaronpk @carrvo i just checked the code and it looks like indielogin.com should fall back to the old behavior if there is no token endpoint found
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doesnm pgp is disabled afaik
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doesnm Chailotl:
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aaronpk Chailotl: those two projects use different stacks so it's possible it might be an issue with the tls certificate, what is your domain?
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Chailotl I'm currently using an ssh tunnel for local testing, the domain is nominally https://axoga.to, but I'm testing with https://0gck4r79-4321.use.devtunnels.ms/
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Chailotl The local webserver doesn't have a certificate, but I do not know if the ssh tunnel is doing anything; it's probably likely since it's using https
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aaronpk it looks like there's some interstitial on that tunnel URL, this is what I see when I visit in my browser https://media.aaronpk.com/2025/02/06090755-9021.png
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aaronpk so any curl client is not going to get through the tunnel because it requires some sort of cookie to be set first
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Chailotl Ah, I had a feeling it was something like that, but my curl command didn't show anything was off (did it pull cookies from my browser?)
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aaronpk might be matching on your IP address
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aaronpk i have no idea what MS is doing with the tunnel service
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Chailotl Probably, yeah, well thank you anyways, guess I'll just have to publish this to my VPS proper
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Chailotl I can confirm that using cloudflare's tunnel service does work instead ^^
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_pi_r2_0[d] (if you want an ssh tunnel with no complications I happen to run https://srv.us)
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btrem Syndication question. If anyone here syndicates to IndieNews, what does your plumbing look like? Bonus if you use 11ty. ;-)
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btrem I have a basic setup where syndication goes in front matter as an array of urls. That works fine for rel syndication, but there's no text for an a.u-syndication link. (Yes, I could just use the link as the link text, but I can do better than that.)
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btrem I'm thinking of an array of objects, but happy to solicit ideas.
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[aciccarello] I did that this morning with 11ty!
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[aciccarello] When I want to syndicate to IndieNews, I add to a front matter list of urls like you mentioned https://github.com/aciccarello/ciccarello.me/commit/9cebd358ef205687a132cb0af72b395738874b1f
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[aciccarello] I render that as some links with the domain as the text using a liquid template https://github.com/aciccarello/ciccarello.me/blob/main/_includes/syndication.html
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btrem So you put just the url there. What does your templage look like?
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btrem Right. Sorry, our messages crossed paths.
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btrem Also, I realized this morning that IndieNews item urls have a pattern, news.indienews.org/{lang}/{canonical url}. So I could do something special if the syndication publisher is IndieNews.
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[aciccarello] My liquid template uses a custom filter to just show the domain https://github.com/aciccarello/ciccarello.me/blob/74b14c4cc8168f81b041d9d815753ca9c6fa1295/.eleventy.js#L138-L140
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[aciccarello] Right now I manually update the URL after it is syndicated but I have also wondered if a mention to the full URL would work. I assume not because it would probably 404 first.
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[aciccarello] Here's me updating the URLs https://github.com/aciccarello/ciccarello.me/commit/efe100b45d9d91e6e4e77c4fd891513f4bb270df
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btrem Oh, right, I hadn't thought of that. The pattern only works /after/ I submit it (and the submission works.)
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btrem In fact, submission to IndieNews is a little strange. I post an article that says it's syndicated to IndieNews, but it's not. Then I submit the webmention. /Then/ (and only then) is it actually syndicated.
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[aciccarello] Indiekit does have a way to handle 2 step syndication as part of the micropub flow. So you could write a custom syndicator for that. But that requires a database which I don't have set up.
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btrem I was just thinking I could probably set up something like that. Not sure if it's worth the time and trouble.
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btrem Probably I'll just kludge it until (unless!) I start doing the same thing all the time. ;-)
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[aciccarello] I'd love to improve the syndication flow on my site because it is nice to be able to syndicate to IndieNews. But manual until it hurts is fine
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[aciccarello] I should look more into what Indiekit offers though https://getindiekit.com/concepts#syndication
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[aciccarello] Syndicating to the Internet Archive would be good
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Loqi agreed.
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gRegor I display the domain in the "also on:" section at the bottom, example: https://gregorlove.com/2025/01/processwire-indieauth-v0.2.3-released/ I've not considered going back and using the exact indienews permalink yet.
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gRegor I think I'm OK with that, though. It's more interesting to click it and see a list of other indienews instead of a link back to the post you were just on
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[aciccarello] Yeah, definitely not necessary to update the link
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btrem gRegor: Yeah probably more interesting for the reader.
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btrem gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 34 karma in this channel over the last year (121 in all channels)
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btrem [aciccarello]++ thanks for the input.
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Loqi [aciccarello] has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (31 in all channels)
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btrem Still, it's tempting to update the link automagically just to see if I can. All it would require is a head request to the url. If it returns 200, use the link, otherwise use a(n almost) bare domain as url.
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btrem Thing is, at some point, I assume my submission to IndieNews would fall off the page. At which point the syndication link would be a bit odd for readers. ("Oh, it's been syndicated to IndieNews. [clicks link] Hmm, no, it hasn't. ?")
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btrem Or maybe not jarring. Since it's a list of links, it's probably obvious what's going on.
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aaronpk i didn't realize threads supported rel=me and shows a bidirectional arrow to indicate the verified link
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[tantek] oh yeah! for quite some time! https://tantek.com/2023/234/t1/threads-supports-indieweb-rel-me
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[snarfed] oh but I think it's new that they show that on *their own* profiles, I think they only recently shipped that
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[snarfed] https://www.threads.net/@0xjessel/post/DFvd8k4SEGq
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aaronpk yes that's the post i saw
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[tantek] oh hey, inbound is new
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aaronpk nice
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[tantek] wow there it is https://www.threads.net/@tantek
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aaronpk 💯
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gRegor cool!
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gRegor what is two-way link
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "two-way link" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "two-way link is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor two-way link is /rel-me
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Loqi ok
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gRegor noticed that's the hover text on the icon
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[tantek] not me hunting for the unicode
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[tantek] gotcha ⇄
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[KevinMarks] That's great but a green ✅ is more usual
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[KevinMarks] I'd congratulate Jesse but I X'd out my profile pic on Threads
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[KevinMarks] https://www.threads.net/@0xjessel/post/Cvu7_zyPak8?xmt=AQGzX8cq-bzzO95tm7uH3V8jPkOddXb3rKg12t0Mk_uc_A
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[snarfed] "first" 😆
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[Jo] rel=crush is pretty funny
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[snarfed] someone tell them about FOAF and XFN
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aaronpk ancient history at this point
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[snarfed] oh definitely. someone tell them _about the history_ 😁
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aaronpk back in my day, you had to go dig up HTML tags in the markup mines, you couldn't just ask ChatGPT to do it for you
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capjamesg[d] 😂
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[KevinMarks] That is the XFN spec he's quoting in 2003
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[Joe_Crawford] I think I missed that my _Goodbye FOAF_ article got added to the FOAF page. https://artlung.com/blog/2024/05/31/goodbye-foaf/
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capjamesg[d] What does "no inverse" mean in this context?
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[Joe_Crawford] what is FOAF
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Loqi RDF is an abbreviation for Resource Description Format, an early-ish part of XML-related technology, that was pitched as the Semantic Web, used in Trackback and RSS 1.0 (but dropped by Pingback and RSS 2.0 respectively), later rebranded as Linked Data, experimentally published in the past, but not used by any indieweb use-cases in practice https://indieweb.org/FOAF
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[Joe_Crawford] no reciprocal?
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capjamesg[d] But someone on whom you have a crush can have a crush on you?
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capjamesg[d] Imagine the serendipity of finding out your crush has a crush on you via HTML.
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[Joe_Crawford] I feel like I want to quote _Escape (The Piña Colada Song)_ now. "Aw it's you..."
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[KevinMarks] That was mirroring an Orkut feature, where I'd you marked each other as crushes it revealed it to both of you.
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[tantek] lol
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[tantek] capjamesg[d] are you familiar with mathematical inverse functions?
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capjamesg[d] Like negation [tantek]?
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[tantek] negation is its own inverse, sufficient but not necessary
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[tantek] added some bits to the Threads rel=me support section, feel free to add more: https://indieweb.org/rel-me#Threads