#dev 2025-05-23
2025-05-23 UTC
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[aciccarello] What is webmention?
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Loqi Webmention is an open web standard (W3C Recommendation) for conversations and interactions across the web, a powerful building block used for a growing distributed network of peer-to-peer comments, likes, reposts, and other responses across the web https://indieweb.org/webmention
# [aciccarello] What is a static site
# Loqi A static site is a website that serves pages directly from files on the web server, which have often been previously generated by static site generator software only when created or updated, instead of for every request https://indieweb.org/static_site
# [aciccarello] (continuing from #indieweb): I have some details on how I manage webmentions in my Colophon page https://www.ciccarello.me/colophon/
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carrvo bread: you could also look at webmention.io, it would be a third party receiving the webmentions (keeps you static) and then you can inject them either with JavaScript or when you regenerate.
# carrvo What is webmention.io?
# Loqi webmention.io is an open-source project and hosted service for receiving webmentions on behalf of your indieweb site https://indieweb.org/webmention.io
# bread ok! ty
# bread if i sign up for webmention.io service, do i still need to host morris?
# bread morris as in for storing mentions in json format
# bread i think i understand it a bit more. so webmention.io is a self-hosted service that runs alongside of my static site. and i need to host webmension.io service somewhere myself...
# bread am i right?
# [aciccarello] You don't need to self host it
# [aciccarello] A community member runs it
# [aciccarello] And then you can get the list of mentions either at build time or client side
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[Jo] http://webmention.io also has an rss feed for your mentions! thats how i get a notification on my phone when i've been mentioned. on the website i use webmention.js to display the mentions on a page :^)
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# perryflynn what is cinnamon
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "cinnamon" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "cinnamon is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# perryflynn what is aperture
# Loqi Aperture is an open source Microsub server developed by Aaron Parecki https://indieweb.org/Aperture
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doesnm perryflynn: https://github.com/capjamesg/cinnamon
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# perryflynn thanks
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# perryflynn I missed some these clients mentioned on aperture and cinnamon when I looked for pub/sub clients. will try some of them out. thanks. šļø
# perryflynn "together" looks interesting for example. Writing is not big of a deal IMHO. But I look for something to manage incoming replies and approve/answer them comfortably.
# perryflynn Goal is to be 100% independent, that's why I didn't started with webmention.io und Co.
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capjamesg I am experimenting with a bookmarks list: https://playground.jamesg.blog/bookmarks.html
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jeremycherfas Nice. I like the grid CSS for the list items.
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# LadyBanana o/ I'm trying to add a comments system to my static website -- with no javascript. Is it possible to use IndieAuth without any client side javascript whatsoever? Also, is it okay to have a static `state` value?
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[tantek] There's a handful of webmention comments embeds. See how http://kevinmarks.com does it which I believe is a static page. Not sure if the embed requires JS (it might)
# [snarfed] unrelated, we're still trying to fully understand, but it seems like to use the Threads API, and maybe other Meta APIs too, you're now *required* to be a business and undergo their business entity verification š https://www.facebook.com/business/help/1095661473946872
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# LadyBanana Yes. I'm planning on having anything needing a backend go through Cloudflare Workers, though I'd like to limit the amount of requests that go through it. Comment submission flow looks like login ->backend adds row to sql db with token and 30 minute timeout, user copies token and puts it in comments submission form, then submits comment. I think that only takes two calls to my backend, the login and comment submission?
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# zachary.kai Can I ask what DNS host people recommend, with the caveat of I need it to be free? Trying to avoid single point of failure.
# perryflynn afraid.org is nice, they offer allot free Subdomains and you can bring your own as well.
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[KevinMarks] I use http://webmention.heroku.app which is js based and does some neat things (eg if you have the page open and a webmention comes in the page updates}
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# [KevinMarks] You can ask voxpelli the details - it keeps a websocket open I think
# [KevinMarks] Makes for a good webmention demo
# Loqi server-sent events is a DOM API for receiving push notifications from a server via HTTP https://indieweb.org/server-sent_events
# [KevinMarks] Have you had problems with Heroku shutting down free tiers?
# [snarfed] re DNS, https://www.zoneedit.com/ is the (or at least an) OG of free DNS services. now owned by EasyDNS
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "DNS Host" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "DNS Host is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# zachary.kai [tantek] Thanks for the recommendation! I'm going to go with that for my needs.
# trwnh huh, TIL about <link anchor="" in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8288#section-3.2 as a solution to the issue of applying links to fragments of a resource instead of the entire current resource
# trwnh wondering how widespread support for this might be
# trwnh (as in, if i start using it on articles with frag-ids, i would hope that parsers don't misattribute the link context as the bounding resource of the entire HTML page)
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# trwnh hm, some testing on python.microformats.io and go.microformats.io and so on seems to show that `anchor` is handled incorrectly; either the link should be fully ignored or the anchor should be parsed, but you MUST NOT consider the link with an incorrect link context
# trwnh i'm not sure there is one, or where to look for one. no mention of a test suite in the RFC(s)
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# LadyBanana rggghhh!! why is indieauth so hard to understand? i just want to put a login button that will result in a jwt cookie that will be submitted with my comment form for stateless logins!
# LadyBanana indielogin.com/api makes it seem kind of simple--except i dont even know how far outdated that is! whats all this code challenges stuff??
# capjamesg [edit] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/edit-button-rel/ is live āØ
# Loqi Web sign-in is signing in to websites using your personal web address (without having to use your e-mail address) https://indieweb.org/Web_Sign-in
# LadyBanana Also... why do all the microformats.org parsers fail on my ellefson.dev site except the rust one??
# LadyBanana i think aaron is at a conference right now
# [snarfed] https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://ellefson.dev/ looks ok to me...?
# LadyBanana Huh, it keeps failing on the subdomain parsers, like https://go.microformats.org
# LadyBanana https://go.microformats.io *
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# perryflynn works on my private installation with mf2-php: https://pastebin.com/urVgLrrb
# LadyBanana thanks, gRegor! i'm using crimson pro as my font. i want to use a djr's fern eventually but not yet
# LadyBanana hmm, well i suppose i wont panic too badly then if its just cloudflare. thanks
# trwnh it's part of the core Web Linking RFC as a normative requirement and there is an algorithm described in Appendix B, so while a test suite would be appreciated i don't think it's necessary > [16:08:29] <[tantek]> makes it harder to implement š¤·
# trwnh parsing it should be like parsing any other param pair, just that it has a default value of "whatever the current resource is"
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# trwnh i think for mf2 parsing purposes you basically need to either ignore wholesale any link which uses anchor=... or otherwise attach the link to the correct items
# trwnh otherwise that's (willfully or negligently) not complying with the normative requirements of the RFC
# trwnh i'm not sure how problematic this would end up being since i think from what i can tell the general pattern seems to be reinvent any "local rel" as a mf2 property, like rel=tag becomes .p-category or otherwise you need to fetch the canonical uri for a subresource (?)
# trwnh like rel=edit can't be exposed on items unless they are the "representative item" of the base resource (a concept which is used in some places but not fully defined afaict -- mainly with "representative h-card")
# trwnh i think the easier approach is to just disregard any link that uses anchor=
# trwnh after a bit more looking i found https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#What_about_rel_bookmark to be somewhat relevant perhaps
# trwnh emmet: html#page > (head > link[rel=tag, href=foo]) + (article#article > a[anchor=#article, rel=tag, href=bar])
# trwnh in that example, the modern advice is to use p-category instead of rel=tag
# trwnh but the expected behavior of rfc 5988 / 8288 is that #page is tagged foo and #article is tagged bar
# trwnh the actual behavior of mf2 parsers is that the base url is tagged both foo and bar
# trwnh yup, but the rfc has a (perhaps ill advised) parameter for overriding the link context to something else
# trwnh i think the issue is with relations that don't translate into an existing microformat class
# trwnh in a practical sense i'm wondering how i might expose for example an edit link on multiple items in a feed. rel=edit only works for the current resource (the feed, or more precisely the html document serving both the feed and its items)
# trwnh without defining a bunch of u-* microformats basically replicating the link relation registry
# trwnh the thing is that i have for simplicity put a bunch of items on a single feed in a single html document
# trwnh which means i can't use web links due to scoping issues
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# trwnh the way that i'm modeling my resources is that they exist separately of the document, but for convenience are served in a single document. the workaround is to 1) generate a separate document for every item, 2) attach links with relations to those new documents/resources. but i'm trying to avoid that overhead :(
# trwnh so the edit link would go to edit a source text file in a git forge
# trwnh essentially i am faced with having to generate permalinks that i don't really want for viewing subresources out of context... unless i redirect to the frag-id i guess?
# trwnh like /monologues/foo redirecting to /monologues/#foo
# trwnh but then while browsing /monologues/ i can't edit individual entries, i need to do an HTTP HEAD on /monologues/foo and get the edit link from there? which means i need my http server to respond to that request...
# trwnh i'd rather Not
# trwnh also i wasn't really aware that web linking was poorly implemented but i guess i'm not completely surprised
# trwnh (ie i didn't expect the scoping issue to be this significant)
# [tantek] basically if a spec lacks a test suite or implementation report I treat it like a W3C CR ā good idea/consensus in theory, but yet to be proven to be implementable or interoperable or even of interest to implementers (per feature). that's part of the value (difference) of between CR and REC. less so in the past, but certainly I'd say 90 (95?)%+ of W3C RECs in the past 10y have all had to have test suites, implementations that pass them, and