#dev 2025-11-18

2025-11-18 UTC
barnaby, to2ds, NaomiAmethyst, rgbivvv and [Al_Abut] joined the channel
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[morganm] Ok I got ushered here again
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[morganm] Blog topic: 10 years of making websites
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[morganm] Just the continued praxis of making many small websites as a way of learning, refreshing, a praxis
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[morganm] I intend to write this
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[morganm] Skip Links: Somehow an issue to be discussed, was excited to write about it on my own website, and post there first, but then shared in the #indieweb channel and it was considered Dev Heavy so now Im here also
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[morganm] Basically my next idea is to copy the design of Indiewebify and use it for skip links, to show how whether a website has one implemented, and see if it passes the test, and give a suggstion of HT
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[morganm] HTML and CSS to implement perhaps
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[morganm] https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/bypass-blocks.html Level A WCAG kinda thing. I wouldn't apply this standard to all personal websites most definitely not, so I see now that this is a Dev topic, but I happen to be writing about it on my own website too...
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[tantek] I wonder (like I actually have not read it in depth enough to understand) how WCAG21 intersects with "mobile first" web design.
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[tantek] should be possible to do both, more a matter of what approach leads to a good mobile accessible web experience
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[morganm] What about if someone uses a keyboard with a mobile device orientation
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[morganm] I guess the impact is lessened because of the visual gap is usually smaller, usually the menu is in a hamburger... stuff like that. But I imagine its very possible some users actually prefer or choose or need to use a mobile phone with a keyboard and tabbing and other keyboard flow things would still apply
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[tantek] Would be fascinating to see a mobile web design write up that explores those possibilities!
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[morganm] I did some googlin and found there are some cases where there have been bugs on mobile because of the way focus works for desktop skip links so that is a thing that can happen
[aciccarello], [schmarty], [Trevor_Morris], [morganm], [Jo], [snarfed], [social], barnaby, DanQ, GuestZero and srazkvt joined the channel
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[tantek] Actual question is, is your domain name provider dependent on Cloudflare.
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[tantek] [artlung] ++
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aaronpk The way they want you to set it up is to manage DNS in cloudflare
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[artlung] indieweb wiki seems to be working for me again. catching a break?
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[artlung] or were changes made aaronpk?
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[tantek] same
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aaronpk Looks like they fixed it
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[artlung] > _*Monitoring* - A fix has been implemented and we believe the incident is now resolved. We are continuing to monitor for errors to ensure all services are back to normal._
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[artlung] that update has a timestamp of 4 minutes ago on their status page.
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[tantek] yeah there's an important lesson here in separation of services, keep your DNS separate from your CDN separate from your Webhost, so you can swap out any one of them as necessary
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aaronpk Well usually the entire thing doesn't go down at the same time
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[tantek] uh
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[tantek] Cloudflare << 2025-11-18 outage: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c629pny4gl7o.amp
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Loqi ok, I added "2025-11-18 outage: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c629pny4gl7o.amp" to the "See Also" section of /Cloudflare https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=105972&oldid=105970
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[tantek] Cloudflare << 2025-11-18 outage incident timeline: https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/incidents/8gmgl950y3h7
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Loqi ok, I added "2025-11-18 outage incident timeline: https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/incidents/8gmgl950y3h7" to the "See Also" section of /Cloudflare https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=105974&oldid=105972
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GuestZero https://huijzer.xyz/posts/123/do-not-put-your-site-behind-cloudflare-if-you-dont
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[artlung] much of the cloudflare usage uptick is a reaction to llm bot traffic uptick.
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[tantek] Cloudflare << Criticism: 2025-11-18 [https://huijzer.xyz/posts/123/do-not-put-your-site-behind-cloudflare-if-you-dont Do Not Put Your Site Behind Cloudflare if You Don't Need To]
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[artlung] there's some axiom about equal and opposite reactions that might be quoted now
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to2ds Certainly hope this LLM bot madness of late is just a phase.
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carrvo No way it will just be a phase 🙁
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to2ds I was all LLM bot protectionism crazy for awhile but have lightened my stance recently.
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to2ds The truly aggressive ones get to visit fail2ban Island 😄
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to2ds Figured that most of my content was micro and mini posts, not much for AI to paraphrase and hallucinate about.
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aaronpk oh i don't care if AI crawlers index my content, I would just rather they crawl respectfully instead of throwing armies of bots making 10+ requests per second to the site
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[artlung] +1 the relentlessness of the bad manners is, ahem, bad.
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[schmarty] the secondary effect of sites adding anti-crawler features that break "good" bots and crawlers makes the web more closed, too. 😞
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to2ds aaronpk - Exactly. Seems they try to swallow your website in one fell swoop.
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[Trevor_Morris] I had to block massive IP ranges as they were gobbling up GB of data every month.
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to2ds At least the ones providing user agents give you options to block them. It's the stealthy ones that are nightmares.
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to2ds [Trevor_Morris] - Did you notice them repeatedly accessing the same content incessantly?
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[Trevor_Morris] I didn’t delve into it deeply. Just that certain IPs were using multi-GB of data.
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[Trevor_Morris] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2025/11/dev-20251118-182841-image_from_ios.jpg
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[Trevor_Morris] Game from Google Cloud - https://talk.plesk.com/threads/google-cloud-abuse-from-their-entire-ip-space-and-fail2ban-unable-block-it.388916/
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[artlung] trevor, I absolutely invite you to blog about that or at least document some of this on https://indieweb.org/large_language_model_traffic
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[artlung] that's a horrendous spike you're describing but par for the llm course
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to2ds Hyperlinks were once the lifeblood of the Web. Now they're just LLM crawler attack vectors 😄
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[Trevor_Morris] It was adding 5GB a day in bandwidth.
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[Trevor_Morris] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2025/11/dev-20251118-183114-image_from_ios.jpg
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[Trevor_Morris] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2025/11/dev-20251118-183114-image_from_ios.jpg
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to2ds Wow! 5GB per day is way too much.
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[Trevor_Morris] Blocked on the 23rd. (Firewall reset and it went back up). You can see the difference.
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[Trevor_Morris] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2025/11/dev-20251118-183335-image_from_ios.jpg
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to2ds [artlung] - Have you been able to mitigate the spikes you were/are receiving?
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[tantek] that's nuts [Trevor_Morris]
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[artlung] @to2ds yes I've not had any recent downtime that I noticed.
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[Trevor_Morris] I am running Uptime Kuma on a raspberry pi to track my website uptime. Works quite nicely.
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[artlung] made a waffle in CSS (and HTML, with SVG syrup) https://codepen.io/artlung/pen/dPMRZaG
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[tantek] [artlung]++ this was great to see being made
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Loqi [artlung] has 35 karma in this channel over the last year (188 in all channels)
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[morgan] I thought this was interesting, recently documented: https://primer.style/accessibility/toasts/ . GitHub no longer uses toasts, and documents why not. This sort of retrospective documentation is often hugely persuasive in guiding discussion about some features.
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[tantek] maybe they'll switch from toasts to waffles
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[morgan] 😄
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[artlung] https://ordinary.page looks simple and fun but the only account create options are Google, Figma, and X. A random ad I clicked on. There must be a pile of little web page makers with implicit silo lock-in like this.
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[artlung] I guess the theory is moving the spam account filtering to those 3 services rather than having to moderate.
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[snarfed] and moving the auth and login implementations, which are risky liabilities to build and own yourself
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[snarfed] (aaronpk can confirm 😎)
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[artlung] kudos to those persons (such as y'all) who are all in signing up for supporting customers.
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[artlung] I'm listening to Doc Searls talking from Indiana U. https://events.iu.edu/bloomington/event/2115455-after-analog-ft-doc-searls Talking "MyTerms" (IEEE P7012) and apparently conversations are occurring with browser makers to try to push it into browsers. It's an ambitious goal but uphill. https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/7012/7192/
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[snarfed] oh man, shades of P3P and VRM
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[snarfed] people have been pushing that boulder up the adoption hill for so many decades now, with admirable intentions but very little concrete results
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aaronpk there was a session about that at IIW last month
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[tantek] it's perennial
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[snarfed] the idea at least, yup. I bet Doc led a session on VRM at the very first IIW 20y ago 😆
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[tantek] here you go, 25y: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_relationship_management
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[artlung] VRM came up in the Q and A. And, yes.
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[Jo] all the images on my site are now pink
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aaronpk ...intentionally?
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aaronpk cause that'd be a weird thing to happen on its own
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[Jo] haha no yea intentionally
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[Jo] .​pi.r2.++ as it turns our css filters was the way to go. i didnt even need a matrix, that sepia + hue shift was enough
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[tantek] Loqi seems to dislike "."s in chat names for karma
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[Jo] no karma for pierre
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aaronpk that is fixable
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aaronpk .​pi.r2.++
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aaronpk or not
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pcarrier sorted?
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aaronpk .pi.r2.++
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[tantek] pcarrier++
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Loqi pcarrier has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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aaronpk wait, there's an invisible character
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aaronpk .pi.r2.++
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Loqi .pi.r2. has 1 karma over the last year
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aaronpk there we go
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[morgan] .pi.r2.++
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Loqi .pi.r2. has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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[tantek] Single Point of File? https://www.axios.com/2025/11/18/cloudflare-outage-cause-systems-down