#meta 2018-07-20

2018-07-20 UTC
aaronpk, [cleverdevil], grantcodes[m], schmarty[m] and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
[jgmac1106] The headline is exaggerated, I said. "Attended the leaders day at the Summit not lead the Summit", but still a nice write up in my local paper
#
[jgmac1106] https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-FBV6K2L5C/img_20180719_212922-01.jpeg?pub_secret=588840753b&name=IMG_20180719_212922-01.jpeg
#
aaronpk headlines gonna headline
#
jgregorymcverry.com edited /Planning (-185) "adding meetings with two potential space partners." (view diff)
jjuran, [chrisaldrich], tantek, [mrkrndvs], dougbeal|mb1, tantek__, benwerd and [dougbeal] joined the channel
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "@evertp After having gotten Webmention working, you might consider stopping by the IndieWeb chat to ask this question of folks like @aaronpk, @t, @kevinmarks, and" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-07-20 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/evertp-after-having-gotten-webmention-working-you-might-consider-stopping
Loqi joined the channel
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "wakest shared a status by dev@microblog.pub" on 2018-07-20 https://mastodon.social/@wakest/100406076194188984
[jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
tantek.com created /events/2018-08-01-dweb-summit (+56) "r" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /events/2018-07-25-homebrew-website-club (+38) "update topics" (view diff)
grantcodes[m] joined the channel
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "I see #IndieWeb more as a community or affinity space rather than a brand. In fact there isn’t any central..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-20 http://jgregorymcverry.com/4719-2/
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "Curious as to what of the eleven #IndieWeb principles you think we do not live up to…though we have been..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-20 http://jgregorymcverry.com/4721-2/
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "When I click on the @socialwebwg in you pinned tweet I see the same faces from #IndieWeb community. Maybe..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-20 http://jgregorymcverry.com/4731-2/
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "I know, or at least feels this way since I am active in both communities, tension among #webannotation..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-20 http://jgregorymcverry.com/4729-2/
#
tantek.com edited /events/2018-07-25-homebrew-website-club (+0) "/* What */ CG" (view diff)
schmarty[m] joined the channel
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "Event" on 2018-07-20 http://tantek.com/2018/206/e1/homebrew-website-club-sf
#
tantek.com edited /events/2018-07-25-homebrew-website-club (+6) "/* San Francisco */ indie event" (view diff)
#
[jgmac1106] Maybe snarky article stubs aren't the best messaging approach??
#
[jgmac1106] https://twitter.com/csarven/status/1020256697493925888?s=19
#
@csarven @jgmac1106 It is not only disgraceful, but also factually incorrect. Notice how it turns into favoring mf: https://twitter.com/csarven/status/636599645293150208 . You will not see that same kind of attitude in mf or "IWC-centric" articles. I can assure you that this is not accidental. (twitter.com/_/status/1020256697493925888)
#
[jgmac1106] What is RDF?
#
Loqi RDF is an abbreviation for Recursive Descent Forever, a way of expressing syllogisms so that the subject, object, and predicate are all URLs https://indieweb.org/RDF
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "Cool will find you on freenode. I am @jgmac1106 there as well. Always happy to learn more, but it is..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-20 http://jgregorymcverry.com/4741-2/
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "https://indieweb.org/Linked_Data_Notifications Seems to be all we have for #LinkedData on #IndieWeb wiki...." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-20 http://jgregorymcverry.com/4735-2/
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "Thank you for the conversation this morning. Need to go feed my kids, but yes #IndieWeb willing to ignore..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-20 http://jgregorymcverry.com/4748-2/
#
tantek__ jgmac1106 note that you're able to use the indieweb, with your own permalinks, to engage in conversation, on Twitter, while the folks complaining about RDF or bias etc. are never got their own approaches to work (in practice) and thus can only respond to you with tweets. The very conversation proves the point. webmentions+microformats is scaling on the indieweb, other more academic/complex approaches, not so much.
[jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
[jgmac1106] ha ha I just said same thing in direct message
#
[jgmac1106] and its the simplicity I like. Though it did make me wonder about all the snarky article stubs we use as inside jokes
#
[jgmac1106] and his beef seemed more with the mf2 wiki, deep personal history I tried to avoid and just steer to CoC
#
tantek__ jgmac1106 microformats started as a pushback against all the dogma from XML and RDF crowds insisting that their complexity was necessary etc.
#
petermolnar it seems like I'm clear for IWC Berlin
#
tantek__ a bunch of us, including myself and kevinmarks rejected their complexity and tried to make simple things work instead, with real world experiments
#
tantek__ when we succeeded we got two kinds of responses, one was cool, let's interoperate, another was the kind of bitter defensiveness you see
#
tantek__ sometimes even from the same people at different times!
#
[jgmac1106] you did make them work
#
tantek__ so we try to ignore the bitterness, and instead keep focus on simple things lots more people can learn, build, deploy
#
tantek__ just as you experienced, comparing mf2 and h-card to RDF etc. schema-org
#
[jgmac1106] yeah the tension is obvious, I encounter it first and it seems actually with this one around fragmentions v annotations
#
tantek__ note the tension is only on Twitter
#
tantek__ not in anything actually on independent websites
#
[jgmac1106] like most of life
#
tantek__ so there's a simple answer, ignore the bitterness on twitter until folks actually step-up and post on their own sites
#
tantek__ I agree with reaching out and being welcoming to folks
#
tantek__ in this case, this is an unfortunate pattern over the years. some big post or article praising indieweb, or building blocks like webmention and mf2, and then the bitterness pours forth on Twitter
eli_oat1 joined the channel
#
[jgmac1106] I can use previous and next to go through our entire conversation. All possible due to mf2 and webmentions
#
[jgmac1106] http://jgregorymcverry.com/4719-2/
#
Loqi I see #IndieWeb more as a community or affinity space rather than a brand. In fact there isn’t any central organization governing us at all. Want to attend a leaders meeting? Plan two events in a year.
#
tantek__ [jgmac1106]: those are good challenges. because planning even one event as a volunteer requires positivity and friendliness
#
tantek__ it's a good filter
#
tantek__ just as our CoC discourages disrespectful / hateful / abusive people, the "selfdogfood" and "plan an event" challenges set a good bar for positive productive folks while discouraging those who tend to be more toxic
#
[jgmac1106] it is also one of the most democratic approaches. I hated the way MoFo/MoCo would dangle all-hands slots over different departments and different contributors. Want to work , show up, Keep showing up, Lead.
#
tantek__ agreed
#
[jgmac1106] also where edcamp went astray from barcamp. local steering committees lost open pathways of entrance
#
tantek__ interesting
[wiobyrne], dougbeal|mb1, [eddie], benwerd, [jgmac1106], [Chris_Lott], [kim_landwehr] and eli_oat1 joined the channel
#
www.timswast.com created /User:Www.timswast.com (+346) "add bio" (view diff)
[snarfed] joined the channel
#
aaronpk We should really remove the snark from the wiki tho
#
Loqi definitely
#
aaronpk Even Loqi thinks so
#
[eddie] loqi++
#
Loqi loqi has 4 karma in this channel (465 overall)
#
[eddie] snark--
#
Loqi snark has -1 karma
[wiobyrne] and [cleverdevil] joined the channel
#
tantek__ some snark yes we should remove
#
tantek__ however, if snark acts as a discouragement for toxic individuals, then it's doing a good job
#
aaronpk i'm not sure I agree, since it still makes the wiki look more opinionated than it should
[miklb] joined the channel
#
tantek__ aaronpk, some amount of opinionated is a good thing, it makes articles more readable
#
tantek__ and frankly shows the community actually stands for something
#
tantek__ instead of being just abstractly academic
#
aaronpk I guess I just don't think being snarky is a core value
#
tantek__ btw while you de-snark things, be sure to *also* mention why they are ir(relevant) to the indieweb
#
tantek__ aaronpk, depends on opinion, some light-hearted snark about ideas/technologies is just /fun
#
tantek__ being snarky towards people/groups is not a core value though
#
aaronpk but there is always a person or group behind a technology, so snark towards the technology ends up looking like snark towards the group
#
tantek__ only towards the zealots
#
tantek__ which tend to be the toxic ones, which you don't want
#
tantek__ reasonable technologists aren't emotionally tied/identified with their technologies
#
tantek__ but instead can argue/explain them based on use-cases, not based on ego
#
tantek__ to put it another way, snark toward bad tech is the cheapest (time-wise) way to discourage toxic zealots from ruining your community
#
tantek__ if you try to just "be nice" to every bad idea, you then have to fight toxic zealots one at a time, and it's huge emotional burden for admins and for a community and burns them both out
#
tantek__ that's basically what happened in #microformats
#
tantek__ a lot of past admins got burnt out dealing with toxic individuals one at a time
#
tantek__ this is a vulnerability of any volunteer driven community
[jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
tantek__ so either you shore-up your defenses so you don't have to fight everyone 1:1 like that, or your burn out your admins, and your community suffers
[dougbeal] joined the channel
#
[dougbeal] Ineresting, so you need precision snark to offend the zeoalots and not most else?
#
tantek__ dougbeal, ideally, yes
#
tantek__ to offend the zealots just enough to discourage them from coming to your community and ruining it with their toxicity
#
tantek__ because frankly, that's all they can do. if they were actually productive with whatever ideas they're pitching, they'd be solving problems, building things, and using them, instead of being offended and so defensive
#
[jgmac1106] In a way that's like saying we bring guns bc we know you have knives. Not sure it will have desired goals. As much as I love the Dennis Leary version of Loqi
#
[jgmac1106] Snark as a rhetorical device is also one used in male dominanted spaces and may hurt larger D&I goals of an open org
#
[jgmac1106] In a I did not know history of title v namespaces. That history was fascinating
#
[dougbeal] What is D&I
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "D&I" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "D&I is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
[jgmac1106] Sorry diversity and inclusion..
dougbeal|mb1, [philbowell], jackjamieson and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel
#
tantek__ jgmac1106, indeed, we should restrict the use of snark to just gen 1 plumbing related topics for those reasons
#
tantek__ and re: desired goals, well we have two concrete real world experiences of communities that have tried different approaches, #microformats and #indieweb, that prove otherwise
#
tantek__ that is, with a little bit of snark/discouragement of toxic zealots, #indieweb has done *much* better at continuous sustainable growth (and reducing loss), than #microformats did, trying to "give mean people a chance", and thus losing so many quiet productive positive people
#
tantek__ jgmac1106, and worse yet, the toxic zealots tend to nearly all be white-ish males, and tolerating their behavior (while you're trying to treat them kindly) tends to *reduce* the D&I in your community
#
tantek__ so if you want a community to be more inclusive, you have to actively fight off toxic zealots
#
tantek__ there's plenty of writing on this, by Kathy Sierra and others
#
tantek__ links here: http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Why_to_avoid_negative_behaviors
#
tantek__ unfortunately we learned (and documented) those lessons too late in the microformats community.
#
[jgmac1106] Wow great read
#
tantek__ really should make the required reading for any/all leaders
#
tantek__ maybe I'll propose for leaders meetup berlin
#
tantek.com edited /2018/Berlin/Leaders (+322) "/* What */ suggestion reading/viewing BEFORE" (view diff)
[kim_landwehr] joined the channel
#
dougbeal tantek__++ awesome, I'm dealing with one incident in an unreleated slack, and this just what I need to clarify my thinking
#
Loqi tantek has 13 karma in this channel (460 overall)
[eddie] and [cleverdevil] joined the channel
#
[eddie] I just added a bunch of those articles on that page to my reader. Thanks tantek!
#
[eddie] tantek++
#
Loqi tantek has 14 karma in this channel (461 overall)
[ryan339], [pfefferle] and [manton] joined the channel
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "Liked: My IndieWeb story, Part 1: Jumping in the Deep End... "I hope it presents both some technical aspects of the IndieWeb but more so introduces how the IndieWeb experience is personal and is shaped by each individual." Read the full post..." by Colin Walker on 2018-07-20 https://colinwalker.blog/20-07-2018-2052/
eli_oat1, tantek and [eddie] joined the channel
#
tantek did anyone swing by OSCON?
#
tantek was there anything indieweb related at OSCON?
#
tantek.com created /2018/Keynotes (+175) "stub" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2018/Keynotes (+27) "see also" (view diff)
benwerd joined the channel
#
gregorlove.com edited /2018/dweb (+35) "+video" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /2018/education (+35) "+video" (view diff)
#
tantek how did https://notiz.blog/2013/06/22/like/ get into this week's indie news? it's 5 years old!
#
Loqi [Matthias Pfefferle] Great idea of Sandeep Shetty to use the u-like (microformats-2) and webmentions for federated social likes! Works like a charm! #indieweb
#
tantek actually a whole bunch of pfefferle posts
#
tantek *old posts
#
tantek aaronpk ^^^
#
tantek in case you can debug quickly before they spam the newsletter with old posts
#
tantek other than thatl, newsletter looks fine
#
gRegorLove There were a bunch of websub notifications as well. Maybe webmentions were re-sent?
#
tantek alright well it went out
#
tantek !tell schmarty in case it's not obvious in the latest newsletter https://indieweb.org/this-week/2018-07-20.html all the "notiz.blog" posts in "Posts about the IndieWeb" are years old - likely due to re-sent webmentions
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk He changed his domain again and sent all the webmentions again
#
dougbeal Hurm, is there anyway to brand HWC as Seattle Area rather than Federal way?
#
dougbeal I guess it doesn't really matter...
#
gRegorLove I think the heading "Seattle Area" is good
#
tantek oh the domain changed
#
gRegorLove oh, in the newsletter you mean.
#
dougbeal yeah
#
tantek would that result in duplicate comments then on anyone he had replied to?
#
tantek dougbeal: is Federal Way the name of the city?
#
dougbeal tantek: yes
#
dougbeal p-locality
[kim_landwehr] joined the channel
#
gRegorLove You could maybe just change the p-locality to Seattle. Google Maps still finds it if I search the address that way.
#
aaronpk Yes i got a few sent to my site too
#
tantek is that de-dupable?
#
dougbeal I will go with Seattle Area, so its technically correct, and won't change even if location does
#
dougbeal.com edited /events/2018-07-25-homebrew-website-club (+1) "Change p-locality to /* Seattle Area */ for newsletter branding" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove dougbeal: Have you heard from Salt or funwhilelost about attending?
[jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
dougbeal gRegorLove: haven't contacted them yet, was trying to get to it today
#
dougbeal a webmention to their webpage as an invite probably wouldn't be very effective?
#
gRegorLove I PMed Salt last week (he's on freenode) about it, didn't hear back.
#
kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+1) "update from /Events" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove Not sure about funwhilelost; haven't seen them around IRC in a while. Maybe an email.
#
dougbeal guess I can tweet at Salt
grantcodes[m] joined the channel
#
gRegorLove Speaking of, appears Salt is/was at OSCON, tantek. Based on tweets.
#
dougbeal AJ's site seems down
#
dougbeal What is pump.io
#
Loqi pump.io is an open source social stream server project built from lessons learned from implementing OStatus in StatusNet https://indieweb.org/pump.io
#
dougbeal Kinda sad to go to twitter to invite to HWC! Maybe we need an invite endpoint?
#
tantek dougbeal - nope, invite is a post kind, a format. use webmentions like any other kind of post.
#
tantek what is an invitation
#
Loqi An invitation is an optional feature of an event post (an event with invitations), or a reply to an event post that also notifies a list of invitees that they've been invited to the event, or a special case of that, an RSVP to an event that also invites additional people to it https://indieweb.org/invitation
#
tantek !tell snarfed up for giving a 5-10 min keynote on indiemap / bridgy / bridging in general at IWC SF / dweb hackers day? Basically what you showed/spoke on at IWS, but less rushed :)
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
[miklb], [eddie] and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel
#
tantek.com created /2018/SF/Schedule (+1340) "stub with rough schedule, a few keynotes!" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2018/SF (+0) "slight updates to schedule" (view diff)
schmarty[m], [manton], benwerd and tantek__ joined the channel
#
Loqi [superfeedr] "Serena Who? – messing around with microblogging and the indieweb" by Douglas Beal on 2018-07-20 https://dougbeal.com/2018/07/20/serena-who-messing-around-with-microblogging-and-the-indieweb/
#
boffosocko.com edited /events/2018-07-25-homebrew-website-club (-60) "Virtual on Pacific Time" (view diff)