#meta 2018-09-01

2018-09-01 UTC
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Loqi
tantek__: gRegorLove left you a message 1 day, 8 hours ago: I forgot to follow up to get your thoughts on https://indieweb.org/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox. Maybe we could implement it after NYC, so we start with all /Leaders#Issues either resolved or marked as "next time" on the NYC Leaders Meetup page.
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Loqi
[Jason McIntosh] Rejecting the “Post-web era” while embracing The Future
ben_thatmustbeme, AngeloGladding, [eddie], [jon], GorillaWarfare6 and hvxgr12 joined the channel
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hvxgr12
Allaһ iѕ doing
[kevinmarks], calumryan, grantcodes[m], decode1, jgmac1106, [jgmac1106] and [keithjgrant] joined the channel
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[jon]
[aaronpk] asked me to shift the diversity discussion here … to start with, lots of good ideas have been suggested already:
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[jon]
2) articulate how Indieweb technology solves specific needs for underserved groups - and build support and tutorials to make it very easy to get aboard. [anomalily] has great points about the zine aspect; Jacky Alciné brought up poet
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[jon]
4) redesign the website.
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[jon]
1) commit to prioritizing diversity and inclusion and put it in your principles.
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[jon]
3) have some very straightforward instructions about how to set up an Indieweb site using Wordpress (the current instructions on the wiki focus on “generation 2 and 3” users) and Tumblr (NOT starting with “set up your own domain”, because that’s a barrier to many people)
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[jon]
5) outreach focused on *listening* to what people from marginalized communities want, rather than on the current perceived selling points
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[jon]
6) make it clear what people can do to defend against harassment
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aaronpk
[jon] is that list somewhere on the wiki already? If not, could you add it here? https://indieweb.org/diversity
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aaronpk
that will help others know actionable steps they can take without having to dig through chat logs
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[jon]
7) invest the effort yourselves instead of expecting the people advocating for diversity to make it
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aaronpk
then, anyone in the community can help with next steps for any of these efforts
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[jon]
i’d say this is a good example of behavior that’s a barrier to diversity. i took the time and invested some effort in answering your request. You asked me to do more work: move the discussion there. Once I did, you asked me to do *more* work.
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[jon]
So, yes, it’s it will potentially be more useful on the wiki. It’ll be interesting to see whether anybody other than me cares enough about it to make the effort to put it there, in a discoverable location, get the word out, and encourage others to work on these things.
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aaronpk
I didn't mean to imply i'm not willing to put effort into this, but the workflow of discussing things in chat and then documenting in the wiki is pretty well established in this community and is how we are able to make progress and allow more people to get involved
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[jon]
8 ) be willing to adopt workflows when they are barriers to diversity
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aaronpk
the key is to enable more people to be able to contribute to these things, rather than having everyone rely on just myself or tantek as bottlenecks
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[keithjgrant]
For #3 above, I'm working now on some more beginner-friendly "how to set up micropub" (and indieauth) docs for omnibear.com
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[keithjgrant]
i'd be happy to cross post relevant stuff to the wiki
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[jon]
9) especially for leaders, remember that people will model your behavior. When they see you investing effort in diversity instead of asking others to (and thanking people for bringing instead of asking for more work), they’ll do the same - helping to change cultural aspects that are known barriers to diversity.
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[jon]
ok, it’s added. here’s the amount of work you asked me to do
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[jon]
1) discover that Indieauth Twitter login isn’t working
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[jon]
2) remember how Indieauth is implemented on my web site - something I haven’t thought about in over a year
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[jon]
4) find the appropriate setting to enable another Indieauth login.
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[jon]
3) log in to the multisite network administration panel to update the Indieauth plugin
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[jon]
5) login to the wiki, cut-and-paste, change formatting to be wiki-esque
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[jon]
As you can see, it took me 20 minutes — and I’m an experienced person who already had Indieauth on a web site.
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aaronpk
thank you
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[jon]
Imagine somebody else, new to Indieweb, watching this discussion. How likely are they to make any suggestions here if this is the expected outcome?
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[jon]
you’re welcome
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[jon]
i’m looking forward to seeing how much progress now gets made on these 🙂
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Zegnat
that is always a bit of a back and forth. On the one hand, the wiki uses indielogin to encourage people to take their first steps on the IndieWeb when they want to contribute to the core documentations. On the other hand we might ask people to document their thoughts even before they have gotten to that point.
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Zegnat
(It is a back-and-forth because it was explicitly decided to make IndieAuth/RelMeAuth a barrier to the wiki.)
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[jon]
right. The barrier restricts participation to the current non-diverse group of insiders. The default response of “put it on the wiki” immediately confronts outsiders people with this barrier. I’ve talked with more than one person who checked out the Indieweb chat room and had the reaction that it was a really hostile place because of this and so decided not to get involved.
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aaronpk
that barrier restricts participation *even of* the "non-diverse" group as well though
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aaronpk
the challenge is we're not trying to just get more people set up with websites. if that were the case, there are many clear things we can do to make sure we are reaching a wide variety of people with that effort.
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[jon]
it’s differential. people with a domain and indieauth already set up and experience with wikis have a relatively-low barrier to participation. people without one or more of those things have a much higher barrier.
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aaronpk
what we actually need is more people to become core leaders of the community, who are willing to organize events, help other people, help build tools, help build specs, etc
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Zegnat
add indielogin compatibility to their websites.
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Zegnat
That’s also part of the age old question “who is the wiki for”. Is it documentation written for implementers, to iterate on web specifications etc? Then it is fine to require things like IndieAuth/RelMeAuth setups. Is it for everyone who has a website to share what they are doing and their experiences of their own online identity? Then we are excluding a huge amount of those people until we can convince them (or their tools) to
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[jon]
Zegnat, in this case, the situation was somebody (me) who’s not in the core Indieweb community had some suggestions about how to make it more diverse. The response was to ask me to put it on the wiki. Requiring IndieAuth is a barrier to the group getting suggestions from a outside the core. No matter what the purpose of the wiki is, that’s going to be a problem for diversity
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[jon]
and Aaron, it sounds like you think that barriers are the way to diversifying the core leadership of the community. Has that been Indieweb’s experience so far? Are there other similar projects that have success with this approach?
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aaronpk
that's not at all what I said
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Zegnat
[jon], my point is that the solution to the situation depends on us deciding what the wiki is for. Either we lower the barrier for wiki edits, or we stop asking people who aren't assimilated in to the community to put their feedback on the wiki.
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[jon]
oh i misunderstood
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aaronpk
I was saying that the barrier keeps a lot of people out, and that it was an intentional decision to do that. I do think we've reached a point that we need to re-evaluate the goals of the wiki now though.
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aaronpk
like zegnat is saying
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[jon]
ah ok. in that case, i think we’re all in violent agreement.
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Zegnat
I could also not have expressed myself well, [jon]. I'm on my phone while cooking dinner. Haha
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aaronpk
at the beginning, we introduced the login barrier explicitly to keep out a lot of (not coincidentally non-diverse) people who would otherwise have derailed the community a long time ago
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aaronpk
and *that* there are plenty of examples of in many different communities
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Zegnat
But we have now also seen, e.g. from [jgmac1106] onboarding people to the wiki, that it is nontrivial for everyone to get on all the community pages. So yeah. Re-evaluating wiki use and barriers seems sound to me!
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Zegnat
I’ll go add this conversation to the Leaders agenda after dinner :)
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[jon]
👍
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AngeloGladding
does it scale?
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AngeloGladding
i've been poring over the wiki for a while and feel like there's an ad-hoc standard of use that would be trampled by an influx of contributors
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AngeloGladding
anonymously edited wikis need editors -- always thought the wiki reflected the IndieWeb spirit -- you put your name, face, url behind your words
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AngeloGladding
anyway, once upon a time tantek told me to bring this question to #meta and it may be relevant:
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AngeloGladding
with ever-increasing implementation complexity will we not evolve to coalesce around a few known good implementations?
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AngeloGladding
it seems like making use of external services for publish, subscription, authentication, etc. are merely stopgap measures to the end game -- a fully functional node that stands alone
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aaronpk
I don't think they are necessarily *just* stopgap measures, as everyone has slightly different goals
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AngeloGladding
or does everyone have the same basic needs?
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aaronpk
I think part of what makes the indieweb approach different from others is that we have all these building blocks that can be assembled in different ways, so that someone who does want to own the "whole stack" can, while others can offload various parts to external services
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Zegnat
Different goals, different needs. Not everyone needs to self-host their microsub endpoint just because they like the look of a microsub reader. Someone who wants direct notifications of people mentioning them may specifically want to selfhost a webmention endpoint to keep that connection as direct as possible. Etc.
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AngeloGladding
totally love the patchwork style -- it is the true way of the web
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Zegnat
I always think people are indieweb as soon as they have anywhere they call their own online. Once they have that, it is up to their own goals, needs, and priorities to see what that anywhere means to them and whether it needs connectivity to other places. IndieWeb the community then tries to have products and technologies documented to help these people further their personal goals.
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Zegnat
thinks he had an article about that somewhere ...
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AngeloGladding
i've probably read it
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AngeloGladding
how do you do that *aside* thing btw?
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Zegnat
In most IRC clients: start your line with /me
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Zegnat
Slack might support that too. I don’t know about the web interface, never tried.
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AngeloGladding
thinks he's read such an article of yours
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AngeloGladding
you have to think like smeagol
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Zegnat
You may have heard me talk about it too, if you have listened to Jeena’s podcast. We also touched on the subject of domain ownership there. I should probably listen back to it to see if I said anything smart :P
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AngeloGladding
yeah i definitely did listen to that one
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AngeloGladding
it was of great historical note
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Zegnat
Hahahaha
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AngeloGladding
when did you guys record it?
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Loqi
haha
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AngeloGladding
lol i mean it was just so much better than an article or a speaker speaking because you could riff off each other
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Zegnat
Lets move this conversation to the main channel instead of meta :)
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AngeloGladding
hah it all started with tantek once upon a time sending me here
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Zegnat
aaronpk, [jon], I tried my best to boil down the discussion to a few bullet points and quotes on the Leader agenda: https://indieweb.org/Leaders#Evaluate_barrier_of_entry_to_wiki_.2F_wiki_use-case
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tantek__
http://wilwheaton.net/2018/08/the-world-is-a-terrible-place-right-now-and-thats-largely-because-it-is-what-we-make-it/ - worth thinking about & documenting how if at all IndieWeb building blocks, community, code-of-conduct etc. would address the situations described in that post
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Zegnat
Except for the fact that you cannot be banned for not breaking rules when you are hosting your own thing, I am not sure indieweb building blocks address any of it.
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Zegnat
As for the CoC and community aspect: being banned from a Mastodon instance would be a bit like being banned from an IndieWebCamp. So that would be: would we bar someone entry when they haven’t even had the chance to break our CoC? I seem to recall we discussed something along those lines at the Leaders summit? I.e. barring entrance to politically-controversial people? Basically if we thought they had acted against what our CoC says
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Zegnat
even outside of IWC we could bar them? That’s kinda what happened here: people thought Wil acted in ways they weren’t comfortable with outside of the Mastodon instance and therefor asked the admin to ban him.
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AngeloGladding
you aren't you unless you own it -- the federated model implies an owner, and it isn't you -- he could have payed someone to set up a personal mastodon? not sure how that would have helped the bigger problem: the haters aren't themselves either
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AngeloGladding
the 0th degree of ownership is owning what you say
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AngeloGladding
i'm heavily investing in GPG for trust in the canopy
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Zegnat
What is GPG?
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Loqi
OpenPGP (Pretty Good Privacy) is a message exchange format that uses public key cryptography to enable people to exchange encrypted and/or signed data; on the IndieWeb, you can use PGP to setup your IndieAuth without depending on any silos https://indieweb.org/GPG
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AngeloGladding
fun fact: recent versions of GnuPG can be coerced into allowing the use of a domain name instead of an email address
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AngeloGladding
that Loqi description leaves out the Web-of-Trust
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Zegnat
True. The most recent 3 articles on https://indieweb.org/GPG#Articles_and_Guides are people moving away from GPG ... if you have some interesting articles on GPG usage, maybe add them, haha
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AngeloGladding
the idea most relevant to this discussion is the web of trust, the graph of signatures
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aaronpk
that's funny, cause that's the part of GPG that gets the most criticism
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AngeloGladding
it's all about network effect
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AngeloGladding
and i think tying it into a public-facing website is exactly the kind of context shift that was necessary to solve a lot of the privacy issues
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AngeloGladding
at least in a twitter-style context
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AngeloGladding
levels.. if there's anything i've discovered there's many levels of privacy/publicity ratios
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AngeloGladding
so if you're already exposing your links (mastodon followers) than you're not in the same privacy context as publicly exposing your e-mail address and the e-mail addresses of the people you communicate with using "military grade" encryption tools
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AngeloGladding
i think PGP used to be refered to as such
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AngeloGladding
..so the web of trust you get from public associations alone should reap some indication of trust of *identity*
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AngeloGladding
managing private webs of trust using private posts of signatures could strengthen the indication -- not something that was possible using public keyservers as dumb centralized repositories
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AngeloGladding
it works, now -- i'll closely watch for an opportunity to IndieWebify the implementation