#meta 2018-09-01
2018-09-01 UTC
# 
Loqi tantek__: gRegorLove left you a message 1 day, 8 hours ago: I forgot to follow up to get your thoughts on https://indieweb.org/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox. Maybe we could implement it after NYC, so we start with all /Leaders#Issues either resolved or marked as "next time" on the NYC Leaders Meetup page.
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# 
hvxgr12 Allaһ iѕ doing
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# [jon] [aaronpk] asked me to shift the diversity discussion here … to start with, lots of good ideas have been suggested already:
# [jon] 2) articulate how Indieweb technology solves specific needs for underserved groups - and build support and tutorials to make it very easy to get aboard. [anomalily] has great points about the zine aspect; Jacky Alciné brought up poet
# [jon] 4) redesign the website.
# [jon] 1) commit to prioritizing diversity and inclusion and put it in your principles.
# [jon] 3) have some very straightforward instructions about how to set up an Indieweb site using Wordpress (the current instructions on the wiki focus on “generation 2 and 3” users) and Tumblr (NOT starting with “set up your own domain”, because that’s a barrier to many people)
# [jon] 5) outreach focused on *listening* to what people from marginalized communities want, rather than on the current perceived selling points
# [jon] 6) make it clear what people can do to defend against harassment
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aaronpk [jon] is that list somewhere on the wiki already? If not, could you add it here? https://indieweb.org/diversity
# [jon] 7) invest the effort yourselves instead of expecting the people advocating for diversity to make it
# [jon] i’d say this is a good example of behavior that’s a barrier to diversity. i took the time and invested some effort in answering your request. You asked me to do more work: move the discussion there. Once I did, you asked me to do *more* work.
# [jon] So, yes, it’s it will potentially be more useful on the wiki. It’ll be interesting to see whether anybody other than me cares enough about it to make the effort to put it there, in a discoverable location, get the word out, and encourage others to work on these things.
# [jon] 8 ) be willing to adopt workflows when they are barriers to diversity
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[keithjgrant] For #3 above, I'm working now on some more beginner-friendly "how to set up micropub" (and indieauth) docs for omnibear.com
# [keithjgrant] i'd be happy to cross post relevant stuff to the wiki
# [jon] 9) especially for leaders, remember that people will model your behavior. When they see you investing effort in diversity instead of asking others to (and thanking people for bringing instead of asking for more work), they’ll do the same - helping to change cultural aspects that are known barriers to diversity.
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# [jon] ok, it’s added. here’s the amount of work you asked me to do
# [jon] 1) discover that Indieauth Twitter login isn’t working
# [jon] 2) remember how Indieauth is implemented on my web site - something I haven’t thought about in over a year
# [jon] 4) find the appropriate setting to enable another Indieauth login.
# [jon] 3) log in to the multisite network administration panel to update the Indieauth plugin
# [jon] 5) login to the wiki, cut-and-paste, change formatting to be wiki-esque
# [jon] As you can see, it took me 20 minutes — and I’m an experienced person who already had Indieauth on a web site.
# [jon] Imagine somebody else, new to Indieweb, watching this discussion. How likely are they to make any suggestions here if this is the expected outcome?
# [jon] you’re welcome
# [jon] i’m looking forward to seeing how much progress now gets made on these 🙂
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Zegnat that is always a bit of a back and forth. On the one hand, the wiki uses indielogin to encourage people to take their first steps on the IndieWeb when they want to contribute to the core documentations. On the other hand we might ask people to document their thoughts even before they have gotten to that point.
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# [jon] right. The barrier restricts participation to the current non-diverse group of insiders. The default response of “put it on the wiki” immediately confronts outsiders people with this barrier. I’ve talked with more than one person who checked out the Indieweb chat room and had the reaction that it was a really hostile place because of this and so decided not to get involved.
# [jon] it’s differential. people with a domain and indieauth already set up and experience with wikis have a relatively-low barrier to participation. people without one or more of those things have a much higher barrier.
# Zegnat That’s also part of the age old question “who is the wiki for”. Is it documentation written for implementers, to iterate on web specifications etc? Then it is fine to require things like IndieAuth/RelMeAuth setups. Is it for everyone who has a website to share what they are doing and their experiences of their own online identity? Then we are excluding a huge amount of those people until we can convince them (or their tools) to
# [jon] Zegnat, in this case, the situation was somebody (me) who’s not in the core Indieweb community had some suggestions about how to make it more diverse. The response was to ask me to put it on the wiki. Requiring IndieAuth is a barrier to the group getting suggestions from a outside the core. No matter what the purpose of the wiki is, that’s going to be a problem for diversity
# [jon] and Aaron, it sounds like you think that barriers are the way to diversifying the core leadership of the community. Has that been Indieweb’s experience so far? Are there other similar projects that have success with this approach?
# [jon] oh i misunderstood
# [jon] ah ok. in that case, i think we’re all in violent agreement.
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# [jon] 👍
# AngeloGladding does it scale?
# AngeloGladding i've been poring over the wiki for a while and feel like there's an ad-hoc standard of use that would be trampled by an influx of contributors
# AngeloGladding anonymously edited wikis need editors -- always thought the wiki reflected the IndieWeb spirit -- you put your name, face, url behind your words
# AngeloGladding anyway, once upon a time tantek told me to bring this question to #meta and it may be relevant:
# AngeloGladding with ever-increasing implementation complexity will we not evolve to coalesce around a few known good implementations?
# AngeloGladding it seems like making use of external services for publish, subscription, authentication, etc. are merely stopgap measures to the end game -- a fully functional node that stands alone
# AngeloGladding or does everyone have the same basic needs?
# Zegnat Different goals, different needs. Not everyone needs to self-host their microsub endpoint just because they like the look of a microsub reader. Someone who wants direct notifications of people mentioning them may specifically want to selfhost a webmention endpoint to keep that connection as direct as possible. Etc.
# AngeloGladding totally love the patchwork style -- it is the true way of the web
# Zegnat I always think people are indieweb as soon as they have anywhere they call their own online. Once they have that, it is up to their own goals, needs, and priorities to see what that anywhere means to them and whether it needs connectivity to other places. IndieWeb the community then tries to have products and technologies documented to help these people further their personal goals.
# AngeloGladding i've probably read it
# AngeloGladding how do you do that *aside* thing btw?
# AngeloGladding thinks he's read such an article of yours
# AngeloGladding you have to think like smeagol
# AngeloGladding yeah i definitely did listen to that one
# AngeloGladding it was of great historical note
# AngeloGladding when did you guys record it?
# AngeloGladding lol i mean it was just so much better than an article or a speaker speaking because you could riff off each other
# AngeloGladding hah it all started with tantek once upon a time sending me here
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# Zegnat aaronpk, [jon], I tried my best to boil down the discussion to a few bullet points and quotes on the Leader agenda: https://indieweb.org/Leaders#Evaluate_barrier_of_entry_to_wiki_.2F_wiki_use-case
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tantek__ http://wilwheaton.net/2018/08/the-world-is-a-terrible-place-right-now-and-thats-largely-because-it-is-what-we-make-it/ - worth thinking about & documenting how if at all IndieWeb building blocks, community, code-of-conduct etc. would address the situations described in that post
# Zegnat As for the CoC and community aspect: being banned from a Mastodon instance would be a bit like being banned from an IndieWebCamp. So that would be: would we bar someone entry when they haven’t even had the chance to break our CoC? I seem to recall we discussed something along those lines at the Leaders summit? I.e. barring entrance to politically-controversial people? Basically if we thought they had acted against what our CoC says
# AngeloGladding you aren't you unless you own it -- the federated model implies an owner, and it isn't you -- he could have payed someone to set up a personal mastodon? not sure how that would have helped the bigger problem: the haters aren't themselves either
# AngeloGladding the 0th degree of ownership is owning what you say
# AngeloGladding i'm heavily investing in GPG for trust in the canopy
# Loqi OpenPGP (Pretty Good Privacy) is a message exchange format that uses public key cryptography to enable people to exchange encrypted and/or signed data; on the IndieWeb, you can use PGP to setup your IndieAuth without depending on any silos https://indieweb.org/GPG
# AngeloGladding fun fact: recent versions of GnuPG can be coerced into allowing the use of a domain name instead of an email address
# AngeloGladding that Loqi description leaves out the Web-of-Trust
# Zegnat True. The most recent 3 articles on https://indieweb.org/GPG#Articles_and_Guides are people moving away from GPG ... if you have some interesting articles on GPG usage, maybe add them, haha
# AngeloGladding the idea most relevant to this discussion is the web of trust, the graph of signatures
# AngeloGladding no doubt
# AngeloGladding it's all about network effect
# AngeloGladding and i think tying it into a public-facing website is exactly the kind of context shift that was necessary to solve a lot of the privacy issues
# AngeloGladding at least in a twitter-style context
# AngeloGladding yikes
# AngeloGladding levels.. if there's anything i've discovered there's many levels of privacy/publicity ratios
# AngeloGladding so if you're already exposing your links (mastodon followers) than you're not in the same privacy context as publicly exposing your e-mail address and the e-mail addresses of the people you communicate with using "military grade" encryption tools
# AngeloGladding i think PGP used to be refered to as such
# AngeloGladding ..so the web of trust you get from public associations alone should reap some indication of trust of *identity*
# AngeloGladding managing private webs of trust using private posts of signatures could strengthen the indication -- not something that was possible using public keyservers as dumb centralized repositories
# AngeloGladding it works, now -- i'll closely watch for an opportunity to IndieWebify the implementation