#meta 2019-12-27

2019-12-27 UTC
[snarfed] and [Michael_Beckwit joined the channel
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aaronpk Good evening
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Loqi aaronpk: [jgmac1106] left you a message 9 hours, 41 minutes ago: does the wolfram alpha engine handle translations?
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aaronpk dunno? You could try it on wolfram alpha
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boffosocko.com edited /app (+16) "/* See Also */ link to app access page" (view diff)
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@ChrisAldrich I wonder how @serendeputy that's built for the open web might support discovery methods for the #IndieWeb? Is there a way to dovetail it with Microsub services somehow? @jpbutler has an interesting looking product here. https://boffosocko.com/2019/12/26/55763088/ (twitter.com/_/status/1210399977442291718)
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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boffosocko.com edited /2020/Online/Planning (+146) "+chrisaldrich; other online conference examples;" (view diff)
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@tw2113 Finished my presentation slides for an internal @webdevstudios talk on the #indieweb in a couple weeks or so. Preview them at https://apiratelifefor.me/presentation/indieweb-lunch-learn/#/ You won't get the presenter notes though, muahaha. (twitter.com/_/status/1210416730306174976)
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weblog.200ok.com.au edited /Blogger (+667) "Updated export section with details about blogger and takeout; and added a link to a nodejs tool for exporting blogger content. Added clarifying note that the existing tool is python." (view diff)
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weblog.200ok.com.au edited /Blogger (+8) "clarification about blogspot vs blogger" (view diff)
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weblog.200ok.com.au edited /Blogger (+55) "noted you can manage video via blogspot UI" (view diff)
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UserDiscord[m], cwchristerwDisco, M[AXEL]DarrDisco, sfromentDiscord[, daihpDiscord[m], junyouDiscord[m], istoOiDiscord[m], TrevorDiscord[m], humbleElitist_Di, ShadowLingDiscor, jmank88Discord[m, sbpDiscord[m], zoglesby, jamietanna[m], swedneck[m] and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
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[jgmac1106] !tell gwg, yes I made the changes on planning, working on it a bit today
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG [jgmac1106]: Hi
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Loqi GWG: [jgmac1106] left you a message 14 minutes ago: I made the changes on planning, working on it a bit today
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GWG There were a lot of good notes from last year
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GWG One of the most notable was the suggestion to adopt a timezone
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GWG A
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GWG As opposed to the split schedule
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@jgmac1106 Good list of RSS blogs to follow: https://warrenellis.ltd/isles/blog-diet-a-starter-list-for-your-rss-reader #IndieWeb (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/29a10o) (twitter.com/_/status/1210537101118394368)
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[jgmac1106] yeah that is first session, I prefer the more flexible timezones and the 23 hour window as being more inclusive but I am happy of trying to find a window that hits MOST time zones
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GWG Well, our usual attendees tend to range from GMT-8 to GMT+1
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GWG So, 6am Pacific is 9am Eastern, 2pm British, or 3pm Central European, or 4pm for me
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GWG Just as an example
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GWG It's chicken and egg...if we pick a timezone, then we might turn off people who would attend if we had it at a different time.
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GWG I think this time, being as they are going to be Zoom recordings, I post the recordings ASAP after sessions
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[jgmac1106] Let's do an hour later UTC-8 to UTC+1
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[jgmac1106] So we launch keynotes and intros at 16:00 UTC, anyone in a different timezone can pre record an intro
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GWG Who is keynoting?
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[jgmac1106] dunno yet, I have asked vika and fluffy to talk about what it is like to build their own IndieWeb platform
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[jgmac1106] I also asked [Sadik_Shahadu] to keynote about IndieWeb and OER, no confirmations yet
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GWG Maybe that should be pre-recorded and released rather than done live?
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GWG I am trying to think what is interactive vs what is not
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GWG I like the lightning talk idea in that vein as well
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GWG Using them to create a stable of quick intro videos
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www.jvt.me edited /User:Www.jvt.me (-30) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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GWG I think it's an opportunity to experiment
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[jgmac1106] Ghana is UTC-0 so the timeline will work, it is Aussie/Kiwi folks that do not get to participate
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[jgmac1106] marinin also agreed to help facilitate, going to do some sessions in Russia if interest
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[jgmac1106] Let me finish up a task for work and I will brainstorm some to-dos on planning
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[Sadik_Shahadu] I am available for that [jgmac1106]
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@tw2113 @vonExplaino 4 things. Comment approved :), kudos for the steampunk interest. extra kudos for the indieweb interest, extra extra kudos for the Copperheart involvement, a podcast I listen to. (twitter.com/_/status/1210569433426616324)
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[AlisonW] If online attendance is spread around the world and you don't have large numbers in iraq-india then 2100-2200 UT works great this time of year. Start at 6am tokyo, 7am Sydney, 1pm Pacific, 4pm Eastern, 10pm CET, 11pm Israel.
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[jgmac1106] Gets a little late for CET if we have a 6 hour block, but 2100 UT is one of my magical hours
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[AlisonW] Yes, the longer it's anticipated to last the worse the problem. I'm in UK and worked for west coast companies which times worldwide irc mtgs to suit themselves, meaning 2am-4am for me. Not fun!
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[jgmac1106] !calc 10 EST to CET
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Loqi 4:00:00 pm CET | Friday, December 27, 2019
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[jgmac1106] AlisonW last year we did a 23 hour window and had maximum flexibility but we got feedback people wanted a more concentrated window for sessions,
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[jgmac1106] Maybe we do ranges
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[AlisonW] Understandable. By definition most people won't stick around 23hrs continuous so maybe have set start tines for sections, sortof hour pkenary to suit majority then timed subjects at intervals
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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[jgmac1106] ooh I like that idea
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[AlisonW] Personally I tend to flag somewhat after a two-hour irc mtg
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[AlisonW] though that depends if I'm sitting at a proper keyboard and screen, or tapping on a tablet in bed (as, um, now)
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[jgmac1106] !tell GWG can you make the event in aaronpk new site?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG I will after work or on my break
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Loqi GWG: [jgmac1106] left you a message 1 minute ago: can you make the event in aaronpk new site?
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GWG Still need registration though
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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[Michael_Beckwit expect more edits as I aim to help with Chris’ draft post 😄
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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[jgmac1106] GWG I am sprinting to make an announcement for this week's newsletter
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[jgmac1106] ohh you mean ti.to, okay I will make a ticket
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[jgmac1106] if you are at work we can wait for nextweek's newletter, still plenty of lead time
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[jgmac1106] AlisonGW I think another issue we had last year was starting on a Friday for the intros, this left PST at work and too late for CET
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[jgmac1106] 21UT is a good time for Sunday demos!!
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[jgmac1106] AlisonGW++ for helping me think through timezones for remote conference
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Loqi AlisonGW has 1 karma over the last year
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[jgmac1106] I want to add a social element as well, an open mic on ZOOM, followed by an optional Switch tournament, game ofwerewolf or something
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[jgmac1106] !calc 11:00 EST to UTC
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Loqi 4:00:00 pm UTC | Friday, December 27, 2019
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[jgmac1106] !calc 5:00 EST to UTC
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Loqi 10:00:00 pm UTC | Friday, December 27, 2019
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[jgmac1106] !calc 5:00 PST to UTC
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Loqi 1:00:00 am UTC | Saturday, December 28, 2019
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /2020/Online/Planning (+459) "proposed schedule" (view diff)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jgmac1106] !tell GWG, chrisaldrich (thx for volunteering), [Sadik_Shahadu], AlisonW, marinin, I put up a proposed schedule: https://indieweb.org/2020/Online/Planning let me know what you think
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[AlisonW] (AlisonW no G, but ta for karma) jgmac106 - yes, interaction of 'weekends' with timezones can seriously affect things, especially as not all countries have Saturday + Sunday as their non-work days.
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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@ZipperHost Island in the NetAn Indieweb Podcast: Episode 4 “Webmentions and Privacy” #indieweb https://islandinthenet.com/indieweb-podcast-episode-4-webmentions-privacy/ (twitter.com/_/status/1210606486738608130)
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[Michael_Beckwit is that changed wiki pages count going to self update for the newsletter? or should I consider stop making edits at a certain time?
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[jgmac1106] I think 3pm PST is a good cut-off, but don't quote me on time
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[jgmac1106] I may take a deadline and always move it two hours back
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[Michael_Beckwit i’m in CST so I’ll be away from computer by that time anyway.
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marinin[t] if it helps, https://everytimezone.com is good for visualizing different timezones :)
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[jgmac1106] Here is the etherpad for proposing sessions: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/2020OnlineSessionProposals
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[jgmac1106] At first glance I think I over complicated it, but I wanted clear instructions for l10n purposes
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[jgmac1106] I think I may remove the wiki markup to make it easier to read and less scary, does mean more work later to put on the wiki
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /2020/Online/Planning (+46) (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /2020/Online/Planning (+117) (view diff)
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apiratelifefor.me edited /User:Boffosocko.com/WP_Draft (+5) "/* Next steps */" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /2020/Online/Planning (+76) "/* Proposed Session Approval Workflow */ adding feedback session" (view diff)
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apiratelifefor.me edited /User:Boffosocko.com/WP_Draft (+11) "/* FAQ */" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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apiratelifefor.me edited /User:Apiratelifefor.me (+239) (view diff)
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aaronpk oo next week I have to redo the newsletter code to pull from events.indieweb.org
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[jgmac1106] yeah I was thinking about that and Austin and 2020 online. Does it have a scheduling grid component or will that be done on the wiki?
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[jgmac1106] I went through the workflow for creating an event, it is so awesome
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[jgmac1106] Did such a good job, and I never have to record another "how to add an event to the wiki" video.
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aaronpk Thanks
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aaronpk I don't think we should use the new site for the schedule grid
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aaronpk that feels like a good use of the wiki
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GWG aaronpk: Didn't realize that wouldn't be in the newsletter yet
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Loqi GWG: [jgmac1106] left you a message 52 minutes ago: (thx for volunteering), [Sadik_Shahadu], AlisonW, marinin, I put up a proposed schedule: https://indieweb.org/2020/Online/Planning let me know what you think
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GWG [jgmac1106]: Do you still need me to do that ASAP then?
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@tw2113 Spending my #5FTF time today helping the WordPress IndieWeb plugins and their documentation. (twitter.com/_/status/1210620296685871104)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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[Michael_Beckwit i’m probably done on the wiki for the day
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
[kimberlyhirsh] joined the channel
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[kimberlyhirsh] Hey IndieWeb, long time no see. Now that I'm done with comps & writing my dissertation proposal, I have some headspace and am considering starting Homebrew Website Club RDU. Is this the kind of thing where it's best to find a co-organizer, or have other organizers pulled it off solo?
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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sknebel [kimberlyhirsh]: having coorganizers is really helpful - although a loyal attendee almost counts as one
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aaronpk definitely helps, but not nearly as necessary for HWCs as it is for indiewebcamps
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[jgmac1106] gwg, no need for ASAP. Will make sure announcement ready foe next newsletter
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[jgmac1106] Been the lone person in New Haven many a time
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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kimberlyhirsh.com edited /User:Kimberlyhirsh.com (+62) (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
[fluffy] joined the channel
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@AlisonW Been playing around with (ie forking and such) Known and IndieWeb as needing to update my tired and difficult-to-still-maintain websites. So far so interesting. @withknown @IndieWebCampUK (twitter.com/_/status/1210676256372600832)
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[AlisonW] [ /me gets surprised as wasn't expecting this to appear here ... but *was* expecting something related to happen elsewhere! back to drawing board ...]
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[tantek] [kimberlyhirsh] I definitely recommend finding a co-organizer for your new HWC. While it's not strictly "required", it will make a big difference for you and another person to commit to each other to making it happen. Don't do the "host by yourself" thing, it's frankly too emotionally exhausting and too easy to bail / give up, and you shouldn't have to bear that kind of burden for a volunteer generous act.
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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[tantek] aaronpk, been thinking about newsletter update implications for the new events setup, and the photos
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aaronpk Should be a lot easier to add photos now!
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[tantek] no that's the problem
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[tantek] I don't think you've considered the security & vuln implications TBH
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[tantek] In particular, I'm worried there's a big spam (or worse) vuln being opened with accepting photo comments from *anyone* (whereas right now the wiki-login is an *excellent* filter), and then worse, propagating those photos in the newsletter (would be pretty trivial for someone to use automation to time their photo comment webmention so no human could moderate it / undo)
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[tantek] Also there is zero ability for community regulars / admins to moderate / filter / sort / curate the photos which we *often* do for the newsletter, by commenting out some photos until after the newsletter, or re-order by which cities have the most people first, or more diverse first etc.
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aaronpk Have you tried?
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[tantek] Both of those are kinda essential features of the existing setup
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aaronpk anyone who is logged in can reorder the photos or remove any of them
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[tantek] I saw the edit button so that's good, presumed deletion (which is hard to do when it's posted like <10s before publication)
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aaronpk sure but that's no different than with the wiki
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[tantek] really you're going make that claim?
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aaronpk someone would have to create a wel marked up photo reply to spam it
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aaronpk which is not that much different than logging in to the wiki
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[tantek] I'll let you think about the obvious difference for a sec
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[tantek] (unless you're only allowing photo comments via webmention whitelist using e.g. /chatnames )
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[tantek] s/whitelist/allowlist
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[tantek] uh no, logging into the wiki is *very* different
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[tantek] and *much* harder to automate
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[tantek] I think you're severely underestimating the difference in barrier there
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[tantek] if you wanted to make it interesting, you could require photo comments to have a valid Vouch
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aaronpk I'm just saying if someone is going to do a targeted attack then I don't think they are that different
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aaronpk I'm more interested in lowering the barrier for people to add photos right now
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[CrowderSoup] I know I'm new here, but I agree about lowering the barrier to entry. We should worry about spam if/when it becomes a problem.
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alisonw.uk created /User:Alisonw.uk (+352) "create base" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk, nope I disagree because the magnitude of possible harm is SO HIGH
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[AlisonW] It is WAAAAYYYYY more difficult to put a stop to spam once it starts than it is to put in preventative menthods beforehand.
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[tantek] [CrowderSoup] your reasoning about spam "worry about spam if/when it becomes a problem" is horribly naive given decades of evidence to the contrary
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[tantek] [AlisonW]
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[tantek] [AlisonW] ++
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Loqi [AlisonW] has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] (not sure why Slack eats the ++ sometimes)
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[AlisonW] I ran the Mozilla wiki for a while and had to remove *many* thousands of spam accounts, each creating pages, edits, etc
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[tantek] similar experience with the microformats wiki
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[AlisonW] ( [tantek] yeah - and it ignores typos too - someone gave me a ++ earlier but mistyped my name - disappears into the ether! )
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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[schmarty] re: co-organizers for HWC, i _highly_ recommend having a dedicated co-organizer.
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[tantek] [schmarty] we really should add that to HWC / "Starting an HWC"
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[schmarty] i haven't heard from my co-organizer in a long time and i am not planning any HWC NYC in 2020 until I find another.
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[tantek] there's also the bus factor, there are going to be times that one co-organizer or the other can't make it or wants to be on vacation
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[CrowderSoup] [tantek] Obviously I think SOME protection against spam is important, but my theory is that there's a sweet spot of just enough protection vs. going overboard. Again, new here, so I don't really know where the line is but this is how I handle spam / phishing at my day job (my team delivers multiple millions of emails for our customers a day).
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[tantek] The fact that email delivery is a *paid service* is testament to how much being unprepared for spam has shaped the industry
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[tantek] and frankly, caused email to centralize
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[schmarty] perhaps this would be a good first attempt at webmention moderation UX
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[schmarty] require someone to log into the wiki to approve the photo webmention
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[schmarty] (log in via the wiki i mean)
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[tantek] [schmarty] yes, that and perhaps allow the photo if it came through with a valid Vouch
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[tantek] pretty sure that would get (at least a few) people to start sending more vouches 🙂
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[tantek] (myself included)
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[schmarty] i'd start w/ a basic allowlist
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[schmarty] vs Vouch
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[tantek] like /chatnames ?
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[tantek] yeah that's a better MVP
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[schmarty] chatnames is probably good enough to start
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[tantek] to be clear, I'm against flipping on fully automated photo comment -> newsletter without some sort of mechanism like this
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[tantek] the vuln to known attack vectors is too high
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[CrowderSoup] I like that idea [schmarty], still keeps the barrier low for SENDING but protects against spam. You could possibly get overwhelmed with having to approve/deny lots of photos if there's a ton of spam, but you can get more aggressive if it comes to that
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[tantek] usually attackers test something then give up if there's a clear gateway
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[tantek] er, gatekeeper
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[tantek] and focus on easier targets. unless they're specifically determined (rather than just drive-by)
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[CrowderSoup] [tantek] yes that is what I've found with email phishers (though with them it's sometimes a game of whack-a-mole)
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[tantek] yeah that too (whack-a-mole) 😞
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[tantek] anyway, let's reconvene about this next week, give aaronpk some time reflect on which of those ^^^ are easier to implement
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[tantek] for now - wasn't there a photo from the HWC St Petersburg?
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[schmarty] a bonus with approval is that we can have a log of who approved a given photo, bringing back one of the accountability features tantek mentioned about the current system.
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[tantek] yes https://twitter.com/marinintim/status/1208779761142681600
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@marinintim Начинаем HWC! Пока добрались irkka, Artem Shar, и Андрей Гурылёв! Успели обсудить OAuth 2 и Project Xanadu :) (https://marinintim.com/notes/2019/12/22/hwc-start/) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMZyyQkWwAAhtEh.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1208779761142681600)
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[tantek] oof < 8min
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[schmarty] oof << 8min 🙃
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Loqi Sorry, I couldn't find a page named "oof" or similar
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[schmarty] gives Loqi and apology
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[schmarty] argh typo'd
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tantek.com edited /events/2019-12-22-homebrew-website-club (+230) "/* Photos */ photo from twitter, linked to the tweet" (view diff)
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[tantek] guess I only need 2
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[tantek] assuming this works
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[tantek] pin13 confirmed the photo is on the h-event
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[tantek] so I suppose we'll find out in 5 min
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[tantek] [schmarty] want to review?
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[schmarty] looks good to xray!
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marinin[t] there was also another picture, give me a sec
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marinin[t] https://irkka.com/#2019-12-22
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Loqi HWC: niiiiiice https://irkka.com/images/indieweb-1.jpg
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[tantek] uh you have < 3 min
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marinin[t] nvm then :)
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tantek.com edited /events/2019-12-22-homebrew-website-club (+154) "/* Photos */ link to indie post instead of tweet and second photo" (view diff)
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[tantek] ok it's in
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marinin[t] yay :)
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[tantek] marinin[t] for future ref ... well we'll have to see how the new system works in January
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[tantek] this is the last time we should be wiki-scrambling to get a photo into the newsletter
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[tantek] (we might be doing other kinds of scrambling)
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[tantek] marinin[t] apologies I don't know Russian so the alt text in the photos is in English 🙈
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html
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[tantek] 🖼🎉
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[tantek] marinin[t] are you signed up fort the newsletter?
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[tantek] you can subscribe here: https://indieweb.org/this-week-in-the-indieweb
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marinin[t] tantek: not yet
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[tantek] and if you do so in the next 5 minutes you should see yourself in the email! 🙂
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marinin[t] subscribed!
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[tantek] events/2019-12-22-homebrew-website-club << https://twitter.com/marinintim/status/1208779761142681600
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/marinintim/status/1208779761142681600" to the "See Also" section of /events/2019-12-22-homebrew-website-club https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67589&oldid=67588
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[tantek] events/2019-12-22-homebrew-website-club << https://marinintim.com/notes/2019/12/22/hwc-start/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://marinintim.com/notes/2019/12/22/hwc-start/" to the "See Also" section of /events/2019-12-22-homebrew-website-club https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67590&oldid=67589
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[tantek] marinin[t], I just got the email, did you?
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@soapdog ↩️ olha as paradas maneiras em: https://indieweb.org/ Eu postei um pouquinho sobre adicionar coisas de #indieweb no meu blog em: https://andregarzia.com/2019/10/adding-indieweb-support-to-this-site.html (twitter.com/_/status/1210698747266707456)
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marinin[t] [tantek]: yes, I did
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[tantek] 🎉
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marinin[t] hmm
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marinin[t] what is email
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Loqi Email is a decentralized, non-web messaging transport, with user interfaces that enable a wide range of message formats and styles, and commonly used for account recovery by web sites and applications https://indieweb.org/email
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[tantek] How would folks feel about the weekly Friday newsletter counting as gifts in the calendar for Fridays?
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[tantek] I feel people definitely put work into curating for the newsletter, and just because it is assembled automatically doesn't make it any less of a gift right?
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[tantek] That would help fill out all https://indieweb.org/2019-12-indieweb-gift-calendar Fridays which are currently empty
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indieweb.org/this-week/2019-12-27.html https://t.co/G3OhXkMFfW (twitter.com/_/status/1210700649827946496)
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crowdersoup.com created /User:Crowdersoup.com (+515) "Init" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /alt (+548) "incorporate the "how would you describe the image over the phone" advice as a brief summary" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+333) "/* Publishing UI */ update optional photo post steps" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com created /2020/Online (+1390) "Created page with "= IndieWebCamp Online 2020 = __NOTITLE__ <div class="h-event vevent"> <span class="p-summary description">'''<dfn class="p-name summary">IndieWebCamp Online 2020</dfn>''' is..."" (view diff)
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GWG How's that? I think that's the first time I've set up one of these pages?