#[tantek][KevinMarks] thanks for the article. Worth asking that question continuously, beyond homepage design, e.g. also /principles and /why
#[tantek][KevinMarks] the article is a bit high level which makes it more challenging to take direct action as a result, or rather, requires more reflection, questioning, thinking
#[tantek]Have you watched [Teresa_Ingram]’s keynote from IWC Berlin 2019?
#[KevinMarks]This bit "Look at what it looks like when you’re creating the internet in a society that values the group over the individual. What does the internet look like then?…what does the internet look like when you have a different social structure? When you think that maybe it isn’t the idea that we’re all here pulling ourselves by our bootstraps, maybe we’re pulling our communities up, what does it look like then when you’re creatin
#[KevinMarks]Whole platforms created for that? That’s where if you want to feel hopeful about what tech can do that’s where you need to be." was the bit that made me think about our strong individual focus
#[tantek]We’ve got an interesting individual / community hybrid focus
#[tantek]BTW prioritizing group over individual isn’t always good either. FB prioritizes strengthening extremist groups over individual self-care
#[tantek]Groupthink, echo chambers, bubbles etc are all criticisms of group-first design approaches
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#[schmarty]KevinMarks: i'm thinking a lot about that passage as well. a lot of our language (e.g. /principles) are very focused towards you-an-individual.
#[tantek]We contrast individual vs corporate though which is a different dichotomy
#[schmarty]tantek: there are many unhealthy groupings, to be sure. but there are also so many groups for mutual aid, protecting and empowering the marginalized, and more, that rely heavily on toxic silos because they don't have many alternatives
#[tantek]Agreed. And that’s an area we could work on explicitly elevating more
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#[tantek]Providing alternative to toxic silos specifically for groups, I’d even say start with families and small friend groups and expand from there
#aaronpk^^ this is one of the reasons mastodon took off the way it did
#[schmarty]mastodon is also a good cautionary example, i think
#[tantek]Aaronpk it’s also been a bit of a trap for groups as it eventually becomes unmaintainable and often dies from neglect or the admin runs out of time to deal with it
#[KevinMarks]This was also some of the thinking behind Known, and why Ben removed the posse stuff iirc
#[jgmac1106]just did a pecha flickr talk at @apereo20 online...folks who develop open source LMS folks were interested in micropub and microsub.. will post when done...I have no voice
#[fluffy]And for people who find mastodon too difficult there’s Pleroma, which doubles down on the social stream awfulness.
#[tantek]So they too often get neglected and abandoned
#[schmarty]KevinMarks: are you referring to Known's multi-user mode? i know jgmac1106 has run those for classes in the past. and for family now?
#[tantek]Creating “one more place to check” is an antipattern we ought to document
#aaronpkand anomalily are running successful discourse sites right now, there are some specific benefits
#aaronpkwell, it's too early for me to consider mine successful, but hers definitely is
#[tantek]It’s pretty much (90% of the time) doomed to fail unless it becomes *the one place to check*
#aaronpknah, it just has to be focused on a specific community
#aaronpkif a forum provides a sense of community and replaces someone's use of twitter/facebook, that seems like a good thing
#[schmarty]"one more place to check" as a phrase suggests that there is some number x of places to check that should be considered normal
#aaronpkalso i would encourage you to spend some time on lily's forum and reconsider this opinion
#[schmarty]but x will highly vary by individual's time and means
#[KevinMarks]maybe I was reading too much into Ben's “we chose to double down on individual websites over building communities, and then we decided to start with education as a go-to market. I don't think either of these things were the right decisions for a startup in retrospect” https://werd.io/2019/about-known
#[tantek]Yes if you can swap out something worse then it’s a win
#[tantek]Then it’s not “one more” it’s an “instead of”
#[tantek]If you could interact with any number of Discourses via your Social Reader that could mostly fix that
#aaronpki actually prefer the context switch of loading up a particular discourse instead of having them all merged
#aaronpkit lets me say to myself "ok now it's time to catch up on X"
#[KevinMarks]I read indieweb in Slack as I have 5 other slacks I monitor regularly (and another 10 I vaguely keep an eye on)
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#[Ana_Rodrigues]humm this is interesting. Just today I realised that I am in like… 20 slack channels that all are communities
#[schmarty][Ana_Rodrigues] [KevinMarks] i feel similarly - i have a lot of different communities that i engage with or at least keep up with. some of those are mediated by slack, some may exist only in chats in signal or telegram, some on FB groups, some by email, ...
#[jgmac1106]some friends I meet at the pool hall, others at church, some at the library
#[jgmac1106]just gave a talk where I had to define IndieWeb using 20 random slides of tubas
#[jgmac1106]"though one more place to check" is the reason newsletters took off...that and the conversion rate with email is only beat by conversion rate of SMS
#[tantek]newsletters aren't interactive, they're not a community, they're broadcast
#[KevinMarks]there is also the 'mobile notifications are the integration point' versus 'notifications are the very devil' dichotomy
#[tantek][Ana_Rodrigues] I get that same feeling from different Slacks
#[Ana_Rodrigues]a friend of mine was using something (I don’t remember the name) that puts stuff like slack, signal, telegram etc all in one so that he can get notifications and as much as he can without having to do the effort of opening tabs and visiting in the browser. Which is.. like having a browser with all the tabs open of the things you want to check.. but it isn’t.
#[Ana_Rodrigues]and I was quite confused and amused at this behaviour
#[tantek]Oh yeah I've heard of this thing, pretty sure it's an electron app that just embeds new webviews for each of those things
#[tantek]It doesn't actually provide a unified interface
#[KevinMarks]there's also the difference between the slacks that serve as parallel conversation repositories, and those with a culture of using @here to make them into notification sources
#[tantek]BTW I've seen more success (% wise) among Slacks for communities than Discourses
#[Ana_Rodrigues]I never used Discourses. Slack doesn’t allow me to block people (at least on all the channels I am in) so.. sometimes doesn’t really work for me as a community.
#[tantek][Ana_Rodrigues]++ totally agreed. That's the problem of a lot of community software/services design in general
#Loqi[Ana_Rodrigues] has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
#[Ana_Rodrigues]I tried a couple of things, but no result, and I am almost sure this is related to me registering with www and not using it. But how do I make my rsvp add my photo? 😞
#[Ana_Rodrigues]Typo, i meant “made my rsvp have my”
#[Ana_Rodrigues]I can’t believe I never tried that. I signed in with my `www` years ago and never tried anything else. That worked. My photo appears now 🤦♀️
#@geonz↩️ TweetDeck. I follow hashtags. #MTBOS, #Educolor #ggbchat, #indieweb, #pandemicPedagogy. Not only do I get links and updates and ideas and discussions, I can eavesdrop on people I *don't* know much about. (twitter.com/_/status/1273320703408984069)
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#gRegorLoveHaven't hosted a Zoom meetup in a while, did we allow waiting room + participant screen share?
ARH, [grantcodes], [KevinMarks]1, genehack_, jjuran_, dopplerg-, strugee_, jmac, [LewisCowles], jeremy, [tantek], jbove and gRegorLove joined the channel