#meta 2020-06-17

2020-06-17 UTC
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@ChrisAldrich Come hear more about the wisdom that @MrChuckD is dropping. Join us for #IndieWeb Camp in two weeks. #OneHackAway #OwnYourDomain https://events.indieweb.org/2020/06/indiewebcamp-west-2020-ZB8zoAAu6sdN https://boffosocko.com/2020/06/16/55772361/ https://twitter.com/MrChuckD/status/1272724310554144769 (twitter.com/_/status/1273068041044025345)
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[chrisaldrich] musician << https://twitter.com/MrChuckD/status/1272724310554144769
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/MrChuckD/status/1272724310554144769" to the "See Also" section of /musician https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70384&oldid=47670
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[tantek] Wow. Did you get him as a keynote speaker [chrisaldrich] ?!?
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[chrisaldrich] I have a call in to his agent. 😉
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[chrisaldrich] I'm worried he would "break" an IndieWebCamp online though...
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[schmarty] Dang that is an extremely good argument for owning your own domain and content
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[schmarty] ChuckD++ 😂
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Loqi ChuckD has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] ChuckD++
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Loqi ChuckD has 2 karma over the last year
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[tantek] What is socmed?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "socmed" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "socmed is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] socmed is /social_media
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /socmed (+25) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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@Buntworthy ↩️ There is a name for that: POSSE https://indieweb.org/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/1273179581839822849)
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[KevinMarks] This discussion of what kind of tech are we pitching is worth a look for our front page redesign - are we pushing the white US male individual worldview? https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/13/so-you-want-to-talk-about-race-in-tech-with-ijeoma-oluo/
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@jgmac1106 No slides for my talk on creating an #oer network using #IndieWeb building Blocks for #Apereo20 but here is some background: The why: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1226325762032197632.html the stuff: https://jgregorymcverry.com/webmentionbadgespressedconf19 andhow https://jgregorymcverry.com/notes/2020-05-11-2 (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1c3xat) (twitter.com/_/status/1273263717782818823)
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] thanks for the article. Worth asking that question continuously, beyond homepage design, e.g. also /principles and /why
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] the article is a bit high level which makes it more challenging to take direct action as a result, or rather, requires more reflection, questioning, thinking
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[tantek] Have you watched [Teresa_Ingram]’s keynote from IWC Berlin 2019?
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[tantek] Might be in /2019/Berlin2/Schedule
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[tantek] It’s for much more specific actionable examples
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[tantek] It’s *got
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[KevinMarks] This bit "Look at what it looks like when you’re creating the internet in a society that values the group over the individual. What does the internet look like then?…what does the internet look like when you have a different social structure? When you think that maybe it isn’t the idea that we’re all here pulling ourselves by our bootstraps, maybe we’re pulling our communities up, what does it look like then when you’re creatin
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[KevinMarks] Whole platforms created for that? That’s where if you want to feel hopeful about what tech can do that’s where you need to be." was the bit that made me think about our strong individual focus
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[KevinMarks] I will watch that
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[tantek] We’ve got an interesting individual / community hybrid focus
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[tantek] BTW prioritizing group over individual isn’t always good either. FB prioritizes strengthening extremist groups over individual self-care
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[tantek] Groupthink, echo chambers, bubbles etc are all criticisms of group-first design approaches
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[schmarty] KevinMarks: i'm thinking a lot about that passage as well. a lot of our language (e.g. /principles) are very focused towards you-an-individual.
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[tantek] Yup. Hence why I brought up /principles in particular
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[tantek] We contrast individual vs corporate though which is a different dichotomy
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[schmarty] tantek: there are many unhealthy groupings, to be sure. but there are also so many groups for mutual aid, protecting and empowering the marginalized, and more, that rely heavily on toxic silos because they don't have many alternatives
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[tantek] Agreed. And that’s an area we could work on explicitly elevating more
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[tantek] Providing alternative to toxic silos specifically for groups, I’d even say start with families and small friend groups and expand from there
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aaronpk ^^ this is one of the reasons mastodon took off the way it did
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[schmarty] mastodon is also a good cautionary example, i think
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[tantek] ^^^ this
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aaronpk yeah not saying it's perfect
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[schmarty] reminds me of darius' post about how hard it is to run a web community
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aaronpk but it took off when people realized they could spin up an instance and focus the instance on a particular community
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[tantek] No worse, it replicated so much of the argumentativeness of Twitter by default due to UI cloning
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[schmarty] riding that fine line between tools to support a community vs commoditized hosting for randos
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[tantek] This is back to all that “designed for reaction rather than thought” stuff I noted like a week or so ago
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[schmarty] here it is: https://runyourown.social/
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@Lucyappert Learning about IndiWeb Building Blocks for DIY learning tools creation by faculty with a lightning talk by Greg McVerry. Learner-centered features like owning your data & badges! https://indieweb.org/Indieweb_for_Education #apereo20 #edtech #opensource #OER (twitter.com/_/status/1273269483231207424)
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[tantek] Aaronpk it’s also been a bit of a trap for groups as it eventually becomes unmaintainable and often dies from neglect or the admin runs out of time to deal with it
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[KevinMarks] This was also some of the thinking behind Known, and why Ben removed the posse stuff iirc
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[tantek] That doesn’t make sense
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aaronpk yeah, running a community is a lot more than spinning up a mastodon instance, and mastodon made it so easy to spin up an instance
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[tantek] This is also why people spin up new Discourse sites
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[tantek] Which are “one more place to check”
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[jgmac1106] just did a pecha flickr talk at @apereo20 online...folks who develop open source LMS folks were interested in micropub and microsub.. will post when done...I have no voice
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[fluffy] And for people who find mastodon too difficult there’s Pleroma, which doubles down on the social stream awfulness.
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[tantek] So they too often get neglected and abandoned
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[schmarty] KevinMarks: are you referring to Known's multi-user mode? i know jgmac1106 has run those for classes in the past. and for family now?
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[tantek] Creating “one more place to check” is an antipattern we ought to document
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aaronpk and anomalily are running successful discourse sites right now, there are some specific benefits
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aaronpk well, it's too early for me to consider mine successful, but hers definitely is
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[tantek] It’s pretty much (90% of the time) doomed to fail unless it becomes *the one place to check*
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aaronpk nah, it just has to be focused on a specific community
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[tantek] Sure there are some successes
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aaronpk and if the community is invested in each other enough then it works
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[tantek] Nah, everyone has limited time
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[fluffy] Or makes itself easy to check alongside other things
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[tantek] Discourses are just the new mailing lists
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[fluffy] I appreciate how most forums have RSS feeds now
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aaronpk discourse is really aggressive about sending email notifications so yeah that's not far off
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[tantek] Except worse in that you have to navigate outside your email client to check them
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[tantek] It’s kind of like mailing lists with avatars and likes for messages
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aaronpk those sound like two excellent upgrades for mailing lists
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[tantek] “One more place to check” is biased towards those with more privilege (time) to do so also
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[tantek] So I kind of see that as in opposition to social justice
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aaronpk eh
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aaronpk if a forum provides a sense of community and replaces someone's use of twitter/facebook, that seems like a good thing
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[schmarty] "one more place to check" as a phrase suggests that there is some number x of places to check that should be considered normal
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aaronpk also i would encourage you to spend some time on lily's forum and reconsider this opinion
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[schmarty] but x will highly vary by individual's time and means
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[KevinMarks] maybe I was reading too much into Ben's “we chose to double down on individual websites over building communities, and then we decided to start with education as a go-to market. I don't think either of these things were the right decisions for a startup in retrospect” https://werd.io/2019/about-known
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[tantek] Yes if you can swap out something worse then it’s a win
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[tantek] Not normal. Each adds a time cost
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[tantek] Then it’s not “one more” it’s an “instead of”
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[tantek] If you could interact with any number of Discourses via your Social Reader that could mostly fix that
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aaronpk i actually prefer the context switch of loading up a particular discourse instead of having them all merged
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aaronpk it lets me say to myself "ok now it's time to catch up on X"
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[KevinMarks] I read indieweb in Slack as I have 5 other slacks I monitor regularly (and another 10 I vaguely keep an eye on)
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[Ana_Rodrigues] humm this is interesting. Just today I realised that I am in like… 20 slack channels that all are communities
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[schmarty] [Ana_Rodrigues] [KevinMarks] i feel similarly - i have a lot of different communities that i engage with or at least keep up with. some of those are mediated by slack, some may exist only in chats in signal or telegram, some on FB groups, some by email, ...
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[jgmac1106] some friends I meet at the pool hall, others at church, some at the library
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[jgmac1106] just gave a talk where I had to define IndieWeb using 20 random slides of tubas
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[jgmac1106] "though one more place to check" is the reason newsletters took off...that and the conversion rate with email is only beat by conversion rate of SMS
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[tantek] newsletters aren't interactive, they're not a community, they're broadcast
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[KevinMarks] there is also the 'mobile notifications are the integration point' versus 'notifications are the very devil' dichotomy
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[tantek] [Ana_Rodrigues] I get that same feeling from different Slacks
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[Ana_Rodrigues] a friend of mine was using something (I don’t remember the name) that puts stuff like slack, signal, telegram etc all in one so that he can get notifications and as much as he can without having to do the effort of opening tabs and visiting in the browser. Which is.. like having a browser with all the tabs open of the things you want to check.. but it isn’t.
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[Ana_Rodrigues] and I was quite confused and amused at this behaviour
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[tantek] Oh yeah I've heard of this thing, pretty sure it's an electron app that just embeds new webviews for each of those things
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[tantek] It doesn't actually provide a unified interface
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[tantek] This is an interesting course for reprioritizing technology focus: http://cs.brown.edu/~seny/aftp/
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[KevinMarks] there's also the difference between the slacks that serve as parallel conversation repositories, and those with a culture of using @​here to make them into notification sources
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sknebel [Ana_Rodrigues]: https://meetfranz.com/ maybe?
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[jgmac1106] good group of fan based online community case studies: https://thecurrent.educatorinnovator.org/collection/fan-activism-and-community-case-studies-in-connected-learning
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[tantek] sknebel, I think that's the one that I took a look at
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[tantek] Here's another similar course BTW: https://responsibleproblemsolving.github.io/
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[tantek] BTW I've seen more success (% wise) among Slacks for communities than Discourses
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[Ana_Rodrigues] I never used Discourses. Slack doesn’t allow me to block people (at least on all the channels I am in) so.. sometimes doesn’t really work for me as a community.
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[tantek] [Ana_Rodrigues]++ totally agreed. That's the problem of a lot of community software/services design in general
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Loqi [Ana_Rodrigues] has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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[tantek] (no blocking / muting of people)
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[tantek] I don't think you can block people on Discourse either
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[itsjustk] You can also use Pidgin IM to gather together a load of different chats
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www.ohhelloana.blog edited /Slack (+144) "/* See Also */ Add a link with reference to blocking people" (view diff)
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[Ana_Rodrigues] https://events.indieweb.org/2020/06/online-homebrew-website-club-europe-london-DyrahM2npvi7
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[Ana_Rodrigues] I tried a couple of things, but no result, and I am almost sure this is related to me registering with www and not using it. But how do I make my rsvp add my photo? 😞
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[Ana_Rodrigues] Typo, i meant “made my rsvp have my”
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petermolnar [Ana_Rodrigues]: I believe if you were to post and rsvp on your site with a h-card that has you photo and then send a webmention to https://events.indieweb.org/webmention with target https://events.indieweb.org/2020/06/online-homebrew-website-club-europe-london-DyrahM2npvi7 you should show up properly
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petermolnar *an rsvp
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[Ana_Rodrigues] Yeah, I’ve been doing the easy route. I will do that next week then. Thanks!
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petermolnar or use the quiet time to do so :)
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petermolnar I mean it's enough to hand-code a html, upload it to your domain and send the webmention by hand
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[Ana_Rodrigues] true!
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aaronpk you should also be able to sign in to the wiki without the www address
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aaronpk i'll try to go find your photo from your home page
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aaronpk it'll*
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Loqi I agree
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[Ana_Rodrigues] omg
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[Ana_Rodrigues] I can’t believe I never tried that. I signed in with my `www` years ago and never tried anything else. That worked. My photo appears now 🤦‍♀️
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aaronpk \o/
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[Ana_Rodrigues] petermolnar ++ thank you!
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Loqi petermolnar has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (22 in all channels)
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[schmarty] _computers_
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[Ana_Rodrigues] aaronpk ++ thank you!
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Loqi aaronpk has 63 karma in this channel over the last year (227 in all channels)
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petermolnar [Ana_Rodrigues]: long live FTP-ing PHP files directly to production for testing ;)
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@gasull ↩️ https://indieweb.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/1273302374279331841)
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@gasull https://indieweb.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/1273312212782919683)
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boffosocko.com edited /color_palette (+125) "Happy Hues, Adobe Color" (view diff)
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@geonz ↩️ TweetDeck. I follow hashtags. #MTBOS, #Educolor #ggbchat, #indieweb, #pandemicPedagogy. Not only do I get links and updates and ideas and discussions, I can eavesdrop on people I *don't* know much about. (twitter.com/_/status/1273320703408984069)
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gRegorLove Haven't hosted a Zoom meetup in a while, did we allow waiting room + participant screen share?
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jmac Setting up for https://events.indieweb.org/2020/06/online-indieweb-meetup-nyc-Vvg1d4IlQSKO
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michael-lewis.com edited /chat-names (+116) "Added irc user|1=michael-lewis.com" (view diff)
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /2020/London/Schedule (-10) "/* Sunday */" (view diff)