#meta 2021-05-26

2021-05-26 UTC
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2021/Pop-ups/Microformats (+1590) "/* Agenda */ Imported top 10 most discussed parsing issues, added voting template" (view diff)
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barnabywalters ^^^ I stubbed a parsing issues section for the popup, please add any additional issues you’d like to bring attention to, and vote so we can prioritise what to spend “IRL” time on
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[tantek] barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (11 in all channels)
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@RubygemsN indieweb-endpoints (6.0.0): Discover a URL’s IndieAuth, Micropub, Microsub, and Webmention endpoints. https://rubygems.org/gems/indieweb-endpoints (twitter.com/_/status/1397394172005388290)
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@RubygemsN indieweb-endpoints (6.1.0): Discover a URL’s IndieAuth, Micropub, Microsub, and Webmention endpoints. https://rubygems.org/gems/indieweb-endpoints (twitter.com/_/status/1397397612328722433)
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Seirdy So freenode staff is taking over channels, shutting them down, and creating alternate channels with different ops. This happens to any channel with the word "libera" in the channel topic. https://pleroma.envs.net/notice/A7d4dgMZ0VuzOwyPVQ (alt: gopher://pleroma.envs.net:7070/1/notices/A7d3VZuH1myJ6gJS2C). If a migration occurs, please do not mention the word "libera" in the channel topic.
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Loqi [Seirdy] @amolith @liberachat ok holy shit, it’s 10x worse than that: open channels on Freenode that mention “libera” but haven’t moved are getting shut down:20:05 --> freenodecom [freenode-placehol] (www.freenode.net) (~com@freenode/staff) has joined...
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aaronpk we may need to move before the matrix bridge is done
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aaronpk at this point i am not comfortable sticking around
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GWG aaronpk: That was what I meant earlier
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Ruxton ooo an indieIRCd
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Ruxton spins up ircd
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/GrapheneOS/status/1397402818324140033
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@GrapheneOS @whitequark They appear to have taken over any channel mentioning http://libera.chat in the topic even if they weren't moving away from freenode. Their stated intention is to retaliate against anyone moving to other networks even if they aren't specifically moving to libera though. (twitter.com/_/status/1397402818324140033)
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Ruxton interestingly freenode homepage currently adresses this outright as falsehoods
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Ruxton and is having a go at projects for "using FOSS projects as a trojan horse to pursue a political cause based on falsehoods"
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aaronpk yeah that whole post is full of authoritarian/dictatorship language
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Saphire aaronpk: trump wannabe be like that
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aaronpk http://meme.loqi.me/m/5CtduFeZ.jpg
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Saphire He literally calls himself a President
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Saphire And his github is @real...
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Saphire Reminds you of anything, eh?
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Seirdy ok, so i'd like to suggest Libera, OFTC, or tilde.chat.
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aaronpk we're all set up to move to libera
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Saphire Pull the lever, Kronk
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Seirdy activates Darth Sidious voice
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Seirdy dew it
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aaronpk not happening tonight, it's going to be a several hour project at least
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Saphire Yeah, understandable
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jjuran gives Loqi an IRC network
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Loqi loves the IRC network
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Saphire pats Loqi
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Ruxton why move to another network which inherently has the same problems? (a core group of mods that have the final say on things and set the tone for what's appropriate on the network)
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aaronpk Because governance of any sort is not easy
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aaronpk What is commons?
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Loqi A commons is a centralized web content hosting site, where users are able to freely contribute content, and easily retrieve it, typically each others' content as well https://indieweb.org/commons
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aaronpk And running infrastructure isn't trivial either
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Ruxton I just think it's inevtiable you'll face the same (and other) problems elsewhere because ultimately as a group, we lack a say in how exernal services are run. If we can run a whole plethora of other group-related things, why not an IRCd?
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aaronpk It may come to that at some point but now is not the time for that.
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aaronpk That's not the kind of thing you want to get rushed into
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Ruxton yet we can rush into lifting the whole team and moving it to a new network? :/
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aaronpk "We" didn't do that
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Ruxton "12:23 <+aaronpk> we're all set up to move to libera"
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aaronpk Right, there's a huge difference between creating channels on a network a group of volunteers is operating vs setting up our own servers
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Ruxton its still a rush reaction
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aaronpk At this point it really isn't
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aaronpk I was at that point last week but over the last few days our new freenode overlords have demonstrated some pretty terrible behavior
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jjuran Just because it's theoretically possible that the same fate will befall the new location in twenty years doesn't mean that moving now isn't a good idea
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aaronpk ^^
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Ruxton anyway.. getting nowhere.. do whatever, It's just seems super silly to speak about an independent web, but our conversations are always held on realms we have no say in and when presented with opportunity the solution is to do it again.
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aaronpk web != chat and we have been pretty clear on that in /principles
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aaronpk It's a nice idea in theory to aim for the same goals in chat as we have for the web, but in practice it means making progress overall even more slowly since there's an even higher barrier to entry
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aaronpk Also remember that we consider the logs at chat.indieweb.org the canonical chat, and everything else is a transport layer to get the chat there
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aaronpk which is why it's actually a relatively minor change to move to a new IRC transport
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Ruxton and a slightly more minor change to have control of the server that transport is connected to
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aaronpk slack users won't notice anything different, and the chat logs won't change
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aaronpk No that's the point, somoene has to step up to volunteer to maintain the irc server if we were to do that. And to ignore that (large) admin task is irresponsible at best
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Ruxton someone has to manage EVERYTHING we do.. yet that's never stopped us from doing the most independent option. I'd happilly admin an IRC server if it meant we gained that independence
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aaronpk The thing is it's not really independence
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aaronpk then all of us would be dependent on *you*
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aaronpk which is far more fragile than being dependent on a group of volunteers with the specific skills and goals of providing this service
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Ruxton I'd happilly offer management to anyone in this group willing to assist, i dont care for the power, you just made it a pain point that someone had to admin it and I dont consider that a difficult task at all
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aaronpk Asking for more volunteer labor from people here isn't really the solution
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Ruxton i just find it funny that there's some lord gripe with freenode and our response is "move to the next garden" instead of the more typical, "how can we solve this problem?" that this group tends to go for
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aaronpk because there are some real immediate concerns with operations and a "proper" solution is not something that can be done in a week
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aaronpk and some "gripe with freenode" is a pretty gross understatement of the situation and I would encourage you to read some more details about what is happening and who is involved
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Ruxton it is 100% a gripe, people are irritated by and object to the actions of a group of people responsible for the administration of the network.. i've read enough, i'm not here to debate what happened, I was debating the groups reaction to it.
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Ruxton and how they're not really in line with our overall ethos, and your reaction was 'too hard' and my reaction is 'no its not'
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Ruxton and so we'll leave it there, cos its going nowhere
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jjuran #indieweb's response has been one of the more relaxed ones.
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Ruxton jjuran: yeah i've seen some crazy shit
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jjuran No need to cast aspersions on those who made hastier moves.
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Ruxton jjuran: let me quantify that then, crazy shit = hypetrain reactionary moves with little knowledge of the situation.
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jjuran How do you know how much knowledge other people have?
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Ruxton Mr. Lee has been angling to takeover freenode for the last 4-5 years. The staff knew that in their hearts, but they still gave it benefit of the doubt and waited for him to do it
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Saphire Cough https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1397384190644002818
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@mjg59 Fucking incredible one of the new Freenode staff members is Chris Punches, who stole someone's identity in order to harass people who signed the petition asking for RMS to stand down: https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.github.io/issues/3916 (twitter.com/_/status/1397384190644002818)
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jjuran https://twitter.com/joshuajuran/status/1397447410998288385
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@joshuajuran It's Freenode at ground zero All the channels are closing down We're on OFTC Thanks to Andrew Lee OMFG, what a clown (Apologies to @alyankovic) (twitter.com/_/status/1397447410998288385)
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petermolnar I'm a bit with Ruxton on the '"and our response is "move to the next garden" instead of [...] "how can we solve this problem?"'
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jjuran First, you have to define the problem.
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petermolnar however... while a part of me would love to have federated matrix rooms which we all keep alive together, it's bloody complicated and resource intensive
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petermolnar jjuran: a, single point of failure b, platform lock in
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petermolnar not that irc is a bad platform at all
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jjuran IRC isn't a platform lock-in at all. I'm using the same client to connect to three different IRC networks.
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petermolnar what is a platform? if a service is tied to a specific domain & system, in my read, it's a platform lock in
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Loqi A platform in the context of software/services is a collection of related APIs/protocols/formats that can be used to build sites/apps, and sometimes misleadingly used to refer to apps themselves, or suites of apps, to exaggerate their sense of importance, value, or impact https://indieweb.org/platform
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jjuran Whereas a Twitter client doesn't also connect to MySpitter, FaceBitter and GitHitter.
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petermolnar from the posse/pesos/bridging perspective, the ideal solution would be to bridge any irc networks' #indieweb* to any other irc networks' #indieweb*
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@DavidWolfpaw I'm on this week's In the Loop podcast talking #WordPress maintenance, why #IndieWeb, and more about working from home and the internet. Thanks for having me! https://anchor.fm/blackbird-digital/episodes/6-Website-Maintenance-with-David-Wolfpaw-e11j94r (twitter.com/_/status/1397487982341464064)
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[calumryan] Happy HWC day! Europe/London today from 19:00 UTC+1
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petermolnar aka bri'ish summer time, also known as it's 13 C outside, and the sun is shining at from a weird angle to highlight all things with dark grey clouds above them.
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petermolnar I think I'm a bit fed up not having temperatures above 15c singe last August
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sknebel weather here is weird too
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sknebel although we did have some +20 days
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sknebel but also snow-to-25°C in two days
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sknebel and last few days are constant change between grey, sun, stormy torrents of rain, sun again ,...
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petermolnar > whatever you do, do not mention "libera" in your channel topic. That's the trigger for this action.
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petermolnar https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27287039
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petermolnar https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27287039
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Loqi [Seirdy] Adapted from a comment I made in the wrong thread: It's hilarious that rasengan is complaining about Libera "fracturing the FOSS community".[0] For example, #newsboat members decided to move by June 5th, and we've been deciding between OFTC and Liber...
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Loqi [Seirdy] Adapted from a comment I made in the wrong thread: It's hilarious that rasengan is complaining about Libera "fracturing the FOSS community".[0] For example, #newsboat members decided to move by June 5th, and we've been deciding between OFTC and Liber...
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barnabywalters wonders if it’s worth pre-emptively not mentioning l*bera in chat either
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petermolnar yeah :/
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petermolnar and suddenly we know how Hong Kong must feel :/
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barnabywalters fortunately it’s much easier to move IRC network than to change citizenship
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petermolnar https://youtu.be/DqkkbnE-ymo?t=622
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petermolnar (Lok was one of the original digitalrev crew)
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petermolnar can someone with superpowers please kick 'petermolnar_' user from all of our rooms? I'm guessing it's yet another matrix leftover.
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sknebel petermolnar: /whois points to your hetzner box ;)
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petermolnar wth
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petermolnar !kick petermolnar_
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Loqi petermolnar_ joined 6324 minutes ago and can no longer be kicked this way
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sknebel hope I hit the right one in each channel ;)
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petermolnar hmmm
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petermolnar that could be some really strange behaviour from my setup
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sknebel [Whois] petermolnar_ is petermolnar_!~mail@2a01:4f8:150:8305::1 (Peter Molnar)
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sknebel and that IP answers https with a cert for petermolnar.net
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petermolnar fascinating
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petermolnar because sockstat doesn't seem to be listing that connection on my host
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petermolnar ooooooh
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petermolnar I see. that was znc, which started on my last server reboot and I completely forgot about it.
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petermolnar well, sorted, thank you, sknebel
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aaronpk I like the idea of federated chat rooms, but frankly none of the current solutions are viable to jump to with less than a week's notice
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petermolnar the only system I'm aware of supporting federated rooms is matrix
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petermolnar in terms of the room itself is federated
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barnabywalters once I started looking into matrix a bit more, there’s quite a lot of criticism about how difficult and costly it is to run a server, how fast the spec moves and clients can’t keep up, etc
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aaronpk Jabber rooms are still hosted on a single server right?
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aaronpk Why hasn't anyone made chat on a blockchain yet? Seems like a perfect use for a distributed eventually consistent database :-)
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aaronpk Oh there are some of course
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barnabywalters shhhh don’t give them any more ideas
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[chee] i run a matrix server
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barnabywalters [chee]: oh cool, I’d be interested to hear about your experiences doing so
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petermolnar aaronpk: yes, in xmpp, they are; there was https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0289.html in 2010 and nothing happened with it.
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petermolnar I run a matrix server as well, but I'm far, from happy with the clients or the server
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petermolnar (no local logging in element is a bad joke)
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petermolnar the criticism for intensive resource usage is true
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[chee] i run it, use postgres as the database. my partner and me and a few friends use it as our homeserver
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[chee] the reference implementation of the server is a python3 and is pretty noisy and expensive of ram. but i have a massive dedicated vps that i run all my stuff on, and it is OK there
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[chee] there will be new servers soon enough, i trust, that are optimized for smaller installs
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petermolnar aaand my matrix server is broken, again
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petermolnar ImportError: /opt/synapse/lib/python3.7/site-packages/cryptography/hazmat/bindings/_openssl.abi3.so: Undefined symbol "SSLv3_client_method"
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[chee] the current ones are built expecting you to have thousands of users
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petermolnar because who the hell uses python libs that have hard requirements of ssl3
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[chee] python software is always so fragile, in my experience
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aaronpk So who wants to have a little zoom party where we plan out the move today?
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aaronpk I'm thinking in a hour or so
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petermolnar to hell with work, yes, I'm in :D
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petermolnar but then I can only stay for 40 mins
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petermolnar until 16:00 BST
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barnabywalters I could probably join, not sure if there’s much I can contribute though
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sknebel I'm in a meeting, will need more time
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aaronpk I made this, I'll be there for a while starting soon https://events.indieweb.org/2021/05/planning-session-for-migrating-off-freenode-UWf9sjpkSqet
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Loqi [New Event] aaronparecki.com created "May 26, 2021 7:00am Planning Session for Migrating Off Freenode" https://events.indieweb.org/UWf9sjpkSqet
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aaronpk notes here: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/irc-migration
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Loqi [Event Updated] aaronparecki.com updated "May 26, 2021 7:00am Planning Session for Migrating Off Freenode" changed description https://events.indieweb.org/event/253/history/822/diff
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Loqi [Event Updated] aaronparecki.com updated "May 26, 2021 7:00am Planning Session for Migrating Off Freenode" changed description https://events.indieweb.org/event/253/history/823/diff
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jeremycherfas I suppose I'll need to adjust my znc bouncer when the move happens.
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sknebel aaronpk: done already?
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aaronpk we are still here
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sknebel where is "here"? the event doesnt havea zoom link
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barnabywalters you can get a join link from the event edit UI
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aaronpk wat it did
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barnabywalters (that’s where I found mine)
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aaronpk oh weird
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aaronpk fixed
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Loqi [Event Updated] aaronparecki.com updated "May 26, 2021 7:00am Planning Session for Migrating Off Freenode" changed end_time https://events.indieweb.org/event/253/history/824/diff
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sknebel in waiting room
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barnabywalters what is single point of failure
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Loqi Single points of failure (SPOFs) are aspects or parts of a system which, when they fail, cause crucial parts of (or the entire) system to fail https://indieweb.org/single_point_of_failure
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aaronpk barnabywalters: https://indieweb.org/single_point_of_aaron
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barnabywalters :D
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barnabywalters ah okay, so it doesn’t actually list indieweb.org-specific things which only aaronpk has access to/control over
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aaronpk oh huh true
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petermolnar now I'm in 10 #indieweb channels.
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petermolnar wheee
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GWG Did I miss any decisions after I left?
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /discuss (+1689) "Added migration warning, migration section with status and implications section" (view diff)
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aaronpk test from libera.chat
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[aaronpk] test from slack
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aaronparecki.com edited /discuss (-14) "/* Status */" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /discuss (+2) "/* 2021 IRC Migration */" (view diff)
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aaronpk_test test
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aaronpk_test test
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aaronpk_test we are live
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[schmarty] wowow look at that
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jackyalcine lol
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[schmarty] heads-up, I see sknebel's "have been disconnected from here" messages in Slack 👀
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sknebel yes
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sknebel we forgot to kill the second copy of the bridge, now fixed
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sknebel can you please delete them in slack?
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[schmarty] oh ! sure.
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[schmarty] removed the "HAPPENING" messages
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /discuss (+198) "/* Join Discussions */ updated IRC links to point to libera.chat, added warning to Matrix too" (view diff)
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sknebel thank you
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chee nice work everyone! very cool , very smooth
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sknebel Talk about IndieWeb community itself, wiki etc. http://chat.indieweb.org/meta/today Code of conduct: https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /discuss (+110) "/* Using an IRC client */ changed to libera.chat" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /discuss (+10) "/* Join via IRC */ indieweb-known" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /discuss (+279) "/* Search */ Added People on IRC section from /IRC" (view diff)
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Loqi [Event Updated] aaronparecki.com updated "May 26, 2021 7:00am Migrating Off Freenode" changed name, end_time https://events.indieweb.org/event/253/history/825/diff
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /IRC () "(-7572) Moved a lot of content specific to the indieweb IRC channels to /discuss or /discuss_infrastructure" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk created /discuss_infrastructure (+6901) "Created with plumbing details specific to the indiewbe IRC channels from /IRC" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /discuss (+175) "/* People on IRC */ added Activity section from /IRC" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /discuss (+103) "/* Status */ noted that the matrix bridge is an external issue" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /discuss (+109) "Linked to discuss infrastructure for technical information" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /IRC (+108) "/* Getting started with IRC */ additional disclaimer" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /irc-fr (-13) "freenode -> libera in the places where I dare to change it" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /welcoming (-2) "s/freenode/libera" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /nick (+51) "s/freenode/libera, See Also" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /post-type-discovery (+50) "s/freenode/libera" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /IRC (+131) (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /chat-names (+86) "/* Nicknames */ added shorter name used on libera.chat" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /chat-names (+2) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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www.timculverhouse.com edited /User:Timculverhouse.com (-23) (view diff)
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rockorager Oh, all wiki edits get posted here?
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@withknown Want to talk Known? We still hang out on IRC - but you'll find us on the indieweb-known channel on Libera. (A previous tweet listed it as just "known" - that's not correct.) (twitter.com/_/status/1397602409342406667)
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chee.snoot.club edited /chat-names (+83) "add chee to the list of nicks" (view diff)
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chee thank-you, loqi
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chee good dinosaur
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[chrisaldrich] rockorager unless it's marked as a minor edit for spelling, typos, etc.
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rockorager Got it, thanks!
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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yousefamar.com created /Template:amar (+152) "Created page with "<span class="h-card" style="white-space:nowrap">{{sparkline |https://yousefamar.com/assets/images/icon.png }} [[User:Yousefamar.com|Yousef Amar]]</span>"" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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jkc.codes created /User:Jkc.codes (+448) "Created page with "<div class="p-summary"> {{Infobox person |name = John Kemp-Cruz |url = https://jkc.codes |photo_url = https://jkc.codes/img/site/icon-site.svg |summary = John Kemp-Cruz is a F..."" (view diff)
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jkc.codes created /Template:johnkempcruz (+117) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline| https://jkc.codes/img/site/icon-site.svg}} [[User:Jkc.codes|John Kemp-Cruz]]</span>"" (view diff)
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aaronpk hey cool the group registration on libera went through
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barnaby great!
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@JamieTanna Thanks for those coming to #HomebrewWebsiteClub Nottingham (https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2021/05/drotp/) (twitter.com/_/status/1397668361350397953)
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Loqi [[Webmention]] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Webmention&diff=1025318693&oldid=prev WikiCleanerBot: v2.04b - Bot T20 CW#61 - Fix errors for CW project (Reference before punctuation)
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Loqi [Event Updated] www.maxwelljoslyn.com updated "Jun 26, 2021 11:00am IndieWebCamp Pop-Up: Sensitive Data on Personal Sites" changed name, description https://events.indieweb.org/event/249/history/826/diff
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Loqi [Event Updated] www.maxwelljoslyn.com updated "Jun 26, 2021 11:00am IndieWebCamp Pop-Up: Sensitive Data on Your Personal Website" changed name, description https://events.indieweb.org/event/249/history/827/diff
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com edited /2021/Pop-ups/Very_Sensitive_Data_on_Your_Personal_Website (-6) (view diff)
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com edited /2021/Pop-ups (+147) (view diff)