#meta 2021-06-23

2021-06-23 UTC
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[tantek] barnaby++ yes! good start optimistically venue planning for in-person IWCs!
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Loqi barnaby has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (4 in all channels)
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[tantek] what is Vienna
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Vienna" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Vienna is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG [tantek]: Any thoughts on closer venues?
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[tantek] GWG, nothing I haven't put in /planning already. If you have more thoughts, or questions for particular cities, please feel free to add them in the heading for each city!
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loqi.me created /type_of_an_untyped_webmention (+74) "prompted by [tantek] and dfn added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /commonplace_book (+666) "/* Examples in the Wild */ Jake Reeder's Return to Cinder site and related Databyss platform" (view diff)
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www.rquinlivan.net created /User:Www.rquinlivan.net (+30) "Created page with "Homepage for Robert Quinlivan."" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /backlink (+531) "extended MediaWiki example and added backlinks to this particular page" (view diff)
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[chrisaldrich] Is it worth it to create a custom Template to get all wiki pages to show their own backlinks the way that https://indieweb.org/backlink#Backlinks does?
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[chrisaldrich] That page seemed like it needed it, if for no other reason than to serve as its own example, but is it worth doing it for all of them?
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[tantek] I'd say no offhand, given that this is not something say Wikipedia does by default
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[tantek] and it's already accessible from the sidebar
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[tantek] "What links here" is the first link under "Tools". and yes I also find myself using it at least once or twice a week
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tantek.com edited /Technorati (+165) "more neutral tone dfn, note use for backlinks discovery and display" (view diff)
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] I am noticing the /backlink page for the first time and it makes sense as a concept. A couple of questions / suggestions. Is a backlink really the same as a bi-directional link or is it one half of one? E.g. link + backlink = bidirectional link.
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[tantek] From what I recall / have read, bidirectional links are inherently so, rather than composed, and are more associated with pre-web hypertext systems like Xanadu.
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[tantek] I'm wondering if it really make sense to have them in the same article (feels confusing), or if they would benefit from being in separate articles
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[chrisaldrich] I see that reading as logical tantek, but in my experience they're generally interchangeable...
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[tantek] it may be that "bidirectional" link has been co-opted in modern usage to mean what you're saying. I'm saying originally it was not that, and TimBL actually deliberately called that out in his HTML proposal IIRC (one-sided links instead of bidirectional links)
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[chrisaldrich] or I should say they're used as interchangeable... usually the use is specific to context, but most often the context is presumed and the shorthand becomes the default (if this makes sense)
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[chrisaldrich] we could certainly define them more closely so that the distinction is preserved rather than diluting it
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[tantek] Wikipedia has a /backlink article already that does not mention bidirection at all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backlink so I'm not sure the "used interchangeably" is actually well established?
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[tantek] Wikipedia also has a redirect from "bidirectional link" to just "Hyperlink", so that's another piece of data for not conflating it with "backlink": https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bidirectional_link&redirect=no
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[tantek] I'm also curious what makes something a "backlink" rather than just "a link"?
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[tantek] Is a backlink, a link created from Y to X where a link from X to Y already exists?
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[chrisaldrich] most of the conflation is in the space of note taking apps like Roam Research, TiddlyWiki and the digital garden space... outside of that I don't hear either used very frequently
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[chrisaldrich] I would say that your definition "a backlink is a link (automatically) created from Y to X where a link from X to Y already exists" and then the pair could be called a bi-directional link
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[chrisaldrich] since they're usually defined automatically in many of these cases, there's a chicken/egg problem of which comes first the link or the backlink? or the perspective of one page looking at the other
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[chrisaldrich] and the idea of a backlink (its use and functionality) seems different when used in the different contexts of SEO and digital gardening where the reason for creating such a thing either has a negative connotation or a potentially positive connation respectively
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[tantek] I don't actually see the "pair" as the same as a "bi-directional" link despite it seeming to behave similarly in a static system.
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[tantek] The problem is different expectations (and realities) of reliability. A "bi-directional" link is expected to never be broken (it would "just" disappear if either end disappeared). Whereas a "pair" is necessarily similarly fragile, and falls back to a "broken link" state if either side goes away.
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[tantek] I don't understand the use of "backlink" in SEO or digital gardening because in those in particular they seem like just a "link" — there is no "backness" required. Or maybe it is a topological assertion? Some "lesser" resource (SEO spam blogs) creating a link to a "bigger" resource (article seeking pagerank inflation) is considered a "backlink"?
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[chrisaldrich] Some of the issue comes down to who controls the links as well. In the closed systems of digital gardens, the software internally controls the auto-linking and maintains the bi-directional links so there's never any fear of either being broken (and in practice if you rename a link at one end, it automatically renames at the other end).
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[tantek] like Mediawiki then, local links within the site at least
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[tantek] yes, the distinction of who controls the links (forward, back, both) is good one to point out
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[chrisaldrich] From garden to garden linking (using raw links or something like Webmention) there's definitely the chance (and a reasonably high likelihood given the rate of linkrot) that one or the other links in a bi-directional pair will become broken and one or the other "just" being a "link".
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[tantek] I wonder if we can use a different term for such pairs as opposed to system created inherently bidirectional links
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[tantek] something like reciprocal links
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[tantek] since they usually involve a second party "reciprocating" the initial link by linking back
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[chrisaldrich] that seems sensible and better delineates clearer versions of what each of them are... my head is getting too fuzzy to do it tonight, but I can circle back tomorrow to take another look... similar words to "reciprocal" would be worth thinking about too.... I wonder if maybe the webmention spec uses a particular descriptor (though there it's more about notifications and may not be explicitly mentioned in the spec) and the link
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[chrisaldrich] back is only done within the implementation
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[chrisaldrich] feel free to take a crack at it yourself if you like...
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[tantek] agreed, it's getting late enough to let the brainstorming sit for a bit. perhaps the Europe based folks will have more ideas to add as they wake up
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[chrisaldrich] I think I've got a set up for a template to automatically transclude a backlinks section on any pages we'd like to add one too that isn't as manually painful as the above example.
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[chrisaldrich] I'd created one for my userpage a short while ago as another example of it as well: https://indieweb.org/User:Boffosocko.com#Backlinks
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[chrisaldrich] potentially useful for seeing examples of one's own site within the bigger wiki for editing/updating entries
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Ruxton gives two thumbs up
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Loqi [Event Updated] calumryan.com updated "Jun 23, 2021 7:00pm Homebrew Website Club Europe/London (5th Anniversary edition)" changed meeting_url https://events.indieweb.org/event/263/history/848/diff
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@Cambridgeport90 #indieweb and #activitypub social reading suggestions; instead of using ISBN to refer to and find books, why not use their open library classification instead? I wonder how one would implement that on something like http://indiebookclub.biz. (twitter.com/_/status/1407692351250714629)
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@bodedotsh Hey @depone. Muss man um am hwc Meeting teilzunehmen bei IndieWeb eingeloggt sein? Würde gerne mal reinschauen :) (twitter.com/_/status/1407740694526038019)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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GWG This begs a question.. should we try in person HWCs pre trying in person IWCs
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[tantek] presumably being smaller, and more local, there would be less risk
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[tantek] also being smaller, there's the chance of finding outdoor venues like parklets at cafes
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GWG [tantek]: The only big downside is Manhattan is a pain to get to for just a night
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aaronpk solution: spend the whole day there :)
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[tantek] I hear there's lots of empty spots in Manhattan since so many folks left
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com edited /2021/Pop-ups/Very_Sensitive_Data_on_Your_Personal_Website () "(-1113)" (view diff)
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com edited /2021/Pop-ups/Very_Sensitive_Data_on_Your_Personal_Website (+132) (view diff)
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com edited /2021/Pop-ups/Very_Sensitive_Data_on_Your_Personal_Website (+499) "add wonderful idea from Ton Ziljstra" (view diff)
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com edited /2021/Pop-ups/Very_Sensitive_Data_on_Your_Personal_Website (+8) "/* Post Properties: visibility and audience */" (view diff)
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Loqi [Event Updated] www.maxwelljoslyn.com updated "Jun 26, 2021 11:00am IndieWebCamp Popup: Sensitive Data on Your Personal Website" changed description "add schedule" https://events.indieweb.org/event/249/history/849/diff
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Loqi [Event Updated] www.maxwelljoslyn.com updated "Jun 26, 2021 11:00am IndieWebCamp Popup: Sensitive Data on Your Personal Website" changed description https://events.indieweb.org/event/249/history/850/diff
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Loqi [Event Updated] www.maxwelljoslyn.com updated "Jun 26, 2021 11:00am IndieWebCamp Popup: Sensitive Data on Your Personal Website" changed description https://events.indieweb.org/event/249/history/851/diff