#meta 2022-02-07

2022-02-07 UTC
dtw, Seirdy, presgas[m], Seirdy0, [schmarty], [fluffy]1, balupton[d] and tj1 joined the channel
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@iamhirusi Banger of a release by @paulrobertlloyd. https://github.com/getindiekit/indiekit/releases/tag/v0.3.0 #IndieKit #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/1490584645465145349)
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capjamesg[d] What is an antilibrary?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "antilibrary" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "antilibrary is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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capjamesg[d] What is an anti-library?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "anti-library" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "anti-library is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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@AlexTheAgorist Lo de #DevolvedLaCuentaAAlvise es otro ejemplo más de por qué los creadores, divulgadores etc de cualquier tipo no pueden centralizar todo su contenido y seguidores en una única red social. Hoy es muy buen momento para dar a conocer la práctica #POSSE https://indieweb.org/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/1490600020550299649)
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@GeoffreyHuntley ↩️ https://indieweb.org/principles (twitter.com/_/status/1490610026209165312)
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@GeoffreyHuntley https://indieweb.org/principles (twitter.com/_/status/1490609868868239361)
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@PelleWessman ↩️ Indiewebben – @indiewebcamp – då ju Twitter trots allt blott är en mikroblogg och vi lyckades vara tämligen sociala redan i bloggosfären. Och en blogg kan man ju hostea på en Raspberry Pi i garderoben i nödfall. IRC (genom svenska arvtagaren till Freenode, @liberachat) (twitter.com/_/status/1490618445557342214)
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sknebel capjamesg[d]: well now I'm curious. books? code? :D
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@PeterRosdahl ↩️ Njae. Inte om du skickar med ett namn i mailet och mailet lämnar EU. (twitter.com/_/status/1490619185185050630)
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@PelleWessman ↩️ Det är ju egentligen bara silos som har problem med GDPR och USA. Ta en teknik som e-post, du kan ju utan problem ha din e-post server i Europa, till och med i Sverige, och ändå skicka och ta emot gentemot hela världen. Och med indiewebben och IRC blir det liknande (twitter.com/_/status/1490618978250727425)
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@PelleWessman ↩️ Sant, just e-post kan ju routeas genom servrar lite kors och tvärs vilket är problematiskt, men lagringen av det man tagit emot blir okej Sedan är ju e-post alltid att se som vykort. Skriv inga känsliga uppgifter i det :) (twitter.com/_/status/1490620151393402881)
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capjamesg[d] sknebel The antilibrary?
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capjamesg[d] If so, books 🙂
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capjamesg[d] I have a number of books that I want to read but haven't quite gotten around to yet.
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capjamesg[d] I can only really read when I am on holiday so quite a few books go unread.
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sknebel ... yeah, pandemic has lead to multiple moments of "oh, I could read that book *order*" ... and then not reading said books because I keep prokrastinating in different ways. so an antilibrary is a to-read list? :D
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capjamesg[d] Yes 😄
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capjamesg[d] I haven't heard about it used for code.
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capjamesg[d] Is that code you want to write but have never written?
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capjamesg[d] *evokes memories of "wouldn't it be nice to build..."* haha
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sknebel or code thats aggressively not packaged for reuse ;)
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tantek.com edited /2019/Düsseldorf (-42) "some after-event edits" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /2019/Düsseldorf/Demos (+536) "stub with link to IRC to get demo descriptions from" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2019/Düsseldorf/Demos (+76) "cat, see also schedule" (view diff)
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[tantek] !tell aaronpk did we have a recorded stream for the 2019 Düsseldorf demos? I see other sessions recordings were linked but not finding one for end of camp demos: https://indieweb.org/2019/D%C3%BCsseldorf/Schedule#Sunday
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /2019/Düsseldorf (-116) "remove incomplete list of only two sessions, complete list already on the schedule page" (view diff)
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@rathermercurial ↩️ There are TONS of us, but we're often silenced by rampant hate speech and exclusivity within crypto / web3. That's slowly changing.. Indieweb is loved by many in Web3, but widely regarded as abandonedware. Projects like @ceramicnetwork are picking up the torch, though! (twitter.com/_/status/1490681716922478594)
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@Cambridgeport90 ↩️ But I find it amazing; IndieWeb citizen, cryptocurrency enthusiast, and pagan all at once. I have not yet encountered that. (twitter.com/_/status/1490680941873750020)
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[tantek] what is abandonedware
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "abandonedware" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "abandonedware is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] abandonedware is /former_projects#Abandoned
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /abandonedware (+38) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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[tantek] and now having looked at that page and its sections, I think we need better ways of distinguishing abandoned, unmaintained, and unreachable
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[tantek] unreachable should only be for projects that appear to have no or have lost any open source presence, not just for projects whose main sites are gone
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[tantek] is there any interesting difference between abandoned and unmaintained?
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barnaby they sound like synonyms to me
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[tantek] It would be good if we could use some of this to motivate better more positive decisions in the future
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barnaby at least when discussing projects rather than services
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[tantek] yeah
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[tantek] services go to /site-deaths
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[tantek] e.g. unmaintained projects should provide good motivation for folks to consider using an existing well maintained project rather than starting their own, or at least creating something with collaborators rather than going it alone
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[tantek] and unreachable projects should provide motivation for folks to open source (at least parts of) their projects early and often, rather than postponing and then it never happening
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[tantek] capjamesg[d], as someone who recently helped move a bunch of /projects over to /former-projects, what are your thoughts on this?
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[tantek] also curious to hear aaronpk's thoughts because there's a bunch of /former-projects that that look like he tried them out and then left them
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aaronpk orly
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Loqi aaronpk: [tantek] left you a message 6 hours, 1 minute ago: did we have a recorded stream for the 2019 Düsseldorf demos? I see other sessions recordings were linked but not finding one for end of camp demos: https://indieweb.org/2019/D%C3%BCsseldorf/Schedule#Sunday
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aaronpk oh huh
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waterpigs.co.uk created /former-projects (+28) "Redirected page to [[former projects]]" (view diff)
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aaronpk hmmm i don't have any of the 2019 videos where i normally keep my archived copies
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aaronpk i have austin and summit (before and after dus)
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[tantek] day 1 videos were archived somehow
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aaronpk yeah weird, i don't know why they aren't in my normal archive
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capjamesg[d] It's difficult to separate abandoned and unmaintained.
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capjamesg[d] I have tried to phrase a semantic difference but cannot do so because it feels arbitrary to me.
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capjamesg[d] Unreachable feels a tad different though. An unreachable project may be offline but the code might still be open source / worked on.
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capjamesg[d] For instance, someone might have chosen to make a public instance of a project and then decided to make it private again.
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capjamesg[d] But whether there are lots of examples of that is something I'd be curious to see.
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[tantek] let's merge abandoned and unmaintained then because I can't remember a reason for distinguishing them, maybe we should check the history of the page?
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[tantek] capjamesg[d], there is a possible distinction between abandoned projects that were "indieweb core" (like full on readers like Redwind, or CMS projects that people in the community actually used on their own sites), some subset of those that were only ever "single user", and projects that were "indieweb tangential" (like libraries that could be used as part of an indieweb supporting CMS etc.) or "other" that didn't really try to
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[tantek] support Indieweb building blocks
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[tantek] which is a better term, abandoned or unmaintained?
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aaronpk "abandoned" is an active verb, "unmaintained" does not imply action
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aaronpk to me, "abandoned" sounds like someone actively decided to stop working on the project
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aaronpk whereas "unmaintained" sounds like it just hasn't been touched in a while for some reason, but maybe not active disinterest
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[tantek] yes I think those are potentially useful aaronpk
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aaronpk subtle difference tho
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[tantek] or would those be useful to distinguish single-user indieweb projects (abandoned by the one person who was primarily developing & using it), from projects which had multiple participants and users ("unmaintained" collectively, rather than singularly "abandoned")?
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[tantek] I'm thinking the separation of single-user/developer "Abandoned" projects may help provide motivation to new devs to not just try creating something on their own
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[tantek] and instead try building something with existing solutions or with other people
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aaronpk interesting point, for a multi-person project to be considered "abandoned" i would expect all participants to have decided to quit
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[tantek] which rarely if ever happens
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aaronpk right
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[tantek] usually someone somewhere keeps the lights on, if barely, merging PRs etc.
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tantek.com edited /former_projects () "(-5172) brainstorming a page update" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk, capjamesg[d], tried to capture some reorganization thinking there ^ /former_projects#Page_Update — please feel free to expand or add other ways to reorganize the content that could be more useful
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capjamesg[d] I think an unmaintained project has a chance of making a comeback.
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capjamesg[d] Indigenous was unmaintained but then a new maintainer took the torch.
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capjamesg[d] But an abandoned project would imply to me something that is not going to comeback without significant work.
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capjamesg[d] Like a decade year old Python library for version 2.X.
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capjamesg[d] But that’s just my opinion 🙂
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jacky that makes sense
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jacky and conventionally (I think) unmaintained projects are announced to be so by the former owners
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jacky abandoned are done without explicit notice
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aaronpk ha that's the opposite of what i said
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aaronpk but you're right about posting a notice on the repo that says "unmaintained". that's already established practice
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[tantek] posting a notice saying unmaintained is still more inviting than "abandoned because this was the wrong approach"
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aaronpk true!
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capjamesg[d] Indeed!
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capjamesg[d] aaronpk I don’t think there is a right answer with this one 🙂
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aaronpk matching known existing behavior is probably the closest to a "right" answer!
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capjamesg[d] Indeed!
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[tantek] another consideration for /former-projects and documentation thereof: I'd like to be kind to /creators, especially to folks formerly active in the community, in the hopes that they feel welcome to rejoin at any time, and contribute at any level, not necessarily the way or form they did before.