#meta 2023-03-24

2023-03-24 UTC
#
[tantek] aaronpk, would it be possible to bridge W3C irc #social to the IndieWeb Slack?
gRegor, gRegorLove_, [dave] and Hello1 joined the channel
#
Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
#
aaronpk It would, but I haven't seen anyone say anything in there other than people asking why the ActivityPub test suite is broken, and someone added notices whenever there's an email list post, so I don't know how useful it would be
gRegorLove_ and mro joined the channel
#
[tantek] I believe [snarfed] was asking in anticipation of the meeting that [j12t] has scheduled for the 29th
#
aaronpk Ah are there plans to use it for the meeting?
#
[tantek] The W3C IRC certainly, along with the usual Zakim and RRSAgent
#
[tantek] And thus it makes sense that folks here that are used using Slack as a UI to IRC would want to do that too
mro, rossa625, gRegorLove_ and gRegor joined the channel
#
diptera.casa created /Gopher (+2061) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>Gopher</dfn>''' is a protocol alternative to [[HTTP]] which has existed since 1991. Similar to the much younger [[Gemini]] protocol, Gopher pages – so called ''gopher holes'' – usually don't take a lot of resources to load and to host. While [[browser | web browsers]] like [[Firefox]] used to support the protocol, nowadays a web proxy or a gopher browser are necessary to view gopher pages. One example for a well-known web browser that still supports..."" (view diff)
Loqi__ joined the channel
#
diptera.casa created /Gopher (+2061) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>Gopher</dfn>''' is a protocol alternative to [[HTTP]] which has existed since 1991. Similar to the much younger [[Gemini]] protocol, Gopher pages – so called ''gopher holes'' – usually don't take a lot of resources to load and to host. While [[browser | web browsers]] like [[Firefox]] used to support ..." (view diff)
#
diptera.casa edited /User:Diptera.casa (+11) (view diff)
#
IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> jo[m]++
#
Loqi jo[m] has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
#
IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> For the wiki contributions.
[pfefferle], mro, [chrisbergr] and jeremy joined the channel
#
diptera.casa edited /User:Diptera.casa (+2) (view diff)
mro joined the channel
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
[tantek] is "Hi. Anyone here." or "yo?" really how people introduce themselves on IRC these days?
#
IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I wonder that too.
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
gRegor and gRegorLove_ joined the channel
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
gregorlove.com edited /events/2023-03-22-hwc-europe (-214) "fix dfn, cleanup" (view diff)
#
gRegor !archive https://events.indieweb.org/2023/03/homebrew-website-club-pacific-fh3p1KDFqJVa events/2023-03-22-hwc-pacific
#
cali.jamesg.blog created /events/2023-03-22-hwc-pacific (+1823) "Created event page using IndieWeb events / Etherpad archiver" (view diff)
#
cali-iwc Created https://indieweb.org/events/2023-03-22-hwc-pacific. Please review the page to ensure the document is correctly formatted and remove any unnecessary text.
#
gregorlove.com edited /events/2023-03-22-hwc-pacific (-214) "cleanup" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+127) "03/22 HWCs" (view diff)
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
[tantek] was there a HWC London photo this week? capjamesg?
#
gRegor ^^ wiki events looking better. /Gopher has an IndieWeb relevance section, though could use something more in the dfn.
#
[tantek] was just about to say, the /Gopher definition needs to directly include the present IndieWeb relevance, and that article needs an IndieWeb Examples section as the creator of the article's personal domain supports Gopher according to https://indieweb.org/User:Diptera.casa
#
[tantek] muscadomestica / Jo — are you here in the #indieweb-meta channel?
#
capjamesg jo[m] ^
#
capjamesg [tantek] Added: https://events.indieweb.org/2023/03/homebrew-website-club-europe-london-MVMqMfFP8bAt#photos
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
[tantek] I will be at btconf DUS. Still no update about a venue so it's looking unlikely for an IWC this year
#
[tantek] I'd still like to organize at least an informal IndieWeb meetup for folks that will be there
#
[tantek] Thinking of maybe Sunday 2023-04-16 lunch & coffee before the event
#
[tantek] before the btconf warmup event as it were
#
sknebel oh didnt realize it is that close
#
[tantek] If there's enough interest we could also organize an informal "lobby hack" session in the lobby of the NH
#
gRegor hack the lobby!
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
[KevinMarks] "lobby hack" in the UK means "political journalist who works at parliament"
#
IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> 😄
IWSlackGateway and [manton] joined the channel
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
[KevinMarks] and [tantek] joined the channel
#
[tantek] [KevinMarks] yes and you remember when we used to do "lobbycon" adjacent to actual conferences before BarCamp
#
[KevinMarks] Yes indeed, always a good idea. My sons are doing that for GDC at the moment in SF
#
[tantek] If I can find one more person to commit to showing up, I will create an informal IWC DUS lobbycon event in the lobby of the NH hotel for the conf and we can take it from there
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
capjamesg [tantek] My client still isn't happy.
#
capjamesg I don't have many config options.
#
[tantek] Which client?
#
capjamesg Sourcehut Chat
#
capjamesg chat.sr.ht
[snarfed] and [schmarty] joined the channel
#
[tantek] Interesting! Can you add it to https://indieweb.org/IRC#Clients
[aciccarello] joined the channel
#
Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
[tw2113_Slack_] joined the channel
#
tantek.com deleted /Gopher "indieweb relevance not in dfn, no indieweb examples"
#
[tantek] since no one fixed the Gopher page (per above), I'm deleted it so it wouldn't pollute the newsletter
#
Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2023-03-24.html
#
[tantek] I think I'm going to do this as a fallback practice in the future, if no one has "fixed" a new page to be indieweb relevant before the newsletter, delete and whoever added it can try again after
#
[tantek] capjamesg, jo[m] ^
#
gRegor That seems aggressive for a new contributor
#
[tantek] gRegor, the flipside is that no had the time/interest to fix it in time, so rather than have something go in the newsletter that shouldn't, deletion is a better fallback
#
[tantek] no one* had the time/interest to fix it in time
#
[tantek] I had other things I had to tend to myself
#
[tantek] also frankly it read mostly like a Wikipedia summary which we really don't want nor need so it's not clear that fixing that page was better than deleting and having someone try again
#
gRegor Yeah, I get the intent. Hopefully they'll see the chat logs for context, but just thinking if they didn't and saw their page was deleted..
#
capjamesg What did the page say?
#
[tantek] gRegor, it's not fair to depend on you or me to "clean up" wiki pages before the newsletter goes out either
#
capjamesg [tantek] Do we have this outlined on the wiki?
#
[tantek] it was mostly a generic page about Gopher (like a Wikipedia summary) with a brief "IndieWeb relevance" section that was purely theoretical and didn't cite any actual IndieWeb examples nor even specific IndieWeb brainstorms
#
[tantek] capjamesg, have you read https://indieweb.org/wikifying ?
#
capjamesg If we could, it would be nice to have a sentence on the wiki that says "hey, remember that indieweb relevance is key -- make sure your definition is clear why this page pertains to the IndieWeb."
#
[tantek] we have that, multiple places hence my question
#
gRegor Sure, not suggesting it just fall on us. Just thinking out loud how it could be discouraging.
#
capjamesg https://indieweb.org/relevant_to_the_IndieWeb_wiki
#
capjamesg I agree. [tantek] a contribution I made to a wiki that was deleted without having enough time to address it wouldn't make me feel good.
#
gRegor joining chat > familiarizing with /wikifying > creating pages seems to be the "best" flow
#
gRegor But some people probably come in via HWC or similar
#
[tantek] capjamesg, also https://indieweb.org/start_a_page
#
capjamesg https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=coffeeee&action=edit&redlink=1
#
[tantek] ?
#
capjamesg The page doesn't give me any guidance.
#
capjamesg Can we add some guidance there?
#
capjamesg We have lots on the wiki; we can't assume new contributors will find it.
#
gRegor Which page? /wikifying has a lot of guidance
#
gRegor Granted, also a big page
#
capjamesg I think wikifying is a good canonical page for this.
#
capjamesg Can we add guidance to the wiki page creation page itself?
#
gRegor https://indieweb.org/wikifying#How_to_Contribute_to_the_IndieWeb_Wiki
#
capjamesg "Thank you for contributing to the wiki! A few things to keep in mind: (i) make sure your definition clearly relates to the IndieWeb; (ii) add an example to the page so readers understand relevance; ..."
#
gRegor That's a good idea. A short reminder and link "please familiarize yourself with [link] before adding a new page"
#
capjamesg Exactly.
#
capjamesg I created this a while ago: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=meta&oldid=79163
#
gRegor It currently has "To create the page, start typing in the box below (see /start_a_page for more info)." so perhaps that page could be improved.
#
gRegor start a page does mention the relevance bit though, and "If there is no indieweb relevance, then DO NOT create the page.
#
gRegor "
#
capjamesg "If you are unsure, ask in chat! We'd be more than happy to help!"
#
capjamesg (wording pending)
#
gregorlove.com edited /start_a_page (-69) "emojicon template, fixes text overlap" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /📓 (-7) "more appropriate for a composition book emoji" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /draft (+18) "emojicon" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /start_a_page (+31) "explicit p-summary" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /draft (+7) "move TOC down" (view diff)
#
capjamesg [tantek] I understand your points, and I care a lot about the wiki being relevant to the community. A nudge on the create page itself would be helpful.
#
capjamesg And I think we should have a Gopher page :P
#
[tantek] what do you mean by a nudge on the create page?
#
capjamesg ""Thank you for contributing to the wiki! A few things to keep in mind: (i) make sure your definition clearly relates to the IndieWeb; (ii) add an example to the page so readers understand relevance; ...""
#
capjamesg Gopher comes up every so often: https://indiechat.search.cweiske.de/?q=gopher
#
tantek.com edited /start_a_page (+906) "add explicit Why, Why not, and How section headers, rm not great old emojicon" (view diff)
#
[tantek] capjamesg, I'd rather direct people to chat first
#
[tantek] as in, if you're not reachable on chat, please do not create new pages
#
[tantek] that allows for handling a broader set of situations as humans rather than one specific scenario
#
gRegor oops, edit conflict
#
[tantek] Gopher is a tangential subject sure
#
capjamesg We can do that too.
#
capjamesg But we need to tell people something :)
#
[tantek] gRegor, figured I'd add an actual definition manually
#
[tantek] the how to isn't a dfn 🙂
#
capjamesg Right now someone could create a page without ever knowing that the pages we have talked about exist.
#
capjamesg The wiki is a vast place :)
#
gRegor yeah, no problem. I was just replacing indiewebcamp wiki with indieweb wiki, which you got already
#
gRegor Why section looking a lot better there
#
capjamesg [tantek]++ for the edits.
#
Loqi [tantek] has 15 karma in this channel over the last year (82 in all channels)
#
tantek.com created /chat_channel (+21) "r" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /start_a_page (+225) "stub a draft dfn" (view diff)
#
capjamesg [tantek] Now we need a link to that on the page creation page.
#
gRegor It already is
#
[tantek] why section is brand new gRegor, please feel free to edit/revise, that was rough copy off the top of my head
#
capjamesg It isn't clear enough.
#
[tantek] capjamesg, in general though we actually do want to discourage folks from creating wiki pages without showing up in chat
#
capjamesg I have a yellow light scheme on my laptop and I couldn't see the link.
#
capjamesg Let me rephrase.
#
capjamesg I didn't notice it was a link until two reads over.
#
capjamesg Can we embolden the text?
#
capjamesg "more info" is too ambigious.
#
capjamesg "See "more info" for guidance on what should and should not be posted on the wiki."
#
capjamesg Or something to that affect.
#
[tantek] yeah it's more than "more info", it's more of a Please Read This First
#
capjamesg Precisely.
#
[tantek] what is mediawiki customizatiomn
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mediawiki customizatiomn" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "mediawiki customizatiomn is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
[tantek] argh
#
[tantek] what is mediawiki customization
#
Loqi https://indieweb.org/mediawiki-customization
#
capjamesg We need the typo thing :D
#
tantek.com edited /mediawiki-customization (+113) "dfn" (view diff)
#
tantek.com moved /mediawiki-customization to /MediaWiki_customizations "proper noun, more readable for actual intent"
#
[tantek] what is mediawiki customization
#
Loqi https://indieweb.org/mediawiki-customization
#
tantek.com edited /mediawiki_customizations (+1) "r--" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /wiki_customizations (+1) "r--" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /talk_page (+1) "r-" (view diff)
#
[tantek] what is mediawiki customization
#
Loqi https://indieweb.org/mediawiki-customization
#
[tantek] wat
#
tantek.com edited /MediaWiki_customizations (+1) "/ to close tag properly" (view diff)
#
[tantek] what is mediawiki customization
#
Loqi https://indieweb.org/mediawiki-customization
#
[tantek] argh
#
gregorlove.com edited /start_a_page (+73) "/* How to */ intro text emphasizing joining chat and familiarizing with /wikifying, minor code format/text change to match wiki UI" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /MediaWiki_customizations (+29) "add explicit p-summary" (view diff)
#
gRegor How's the first line in the how to now? https://indieweb.org/start_a_page#How_to
#
[tantek] good idea to prompt there. going to word it more strongly
#
[tantek] because this isn't the first time this has happened (someone has created pages before joining chat or at least before saying anything here)
#
capjamesg Jo had joined the chat and been to a few HWCs :)
#
gRegor Was thinking that how to might also include a step for adding the IndieWeb Examples section
#
capjamesg (iirc)
#
tantek.com edited /start_a_page (+185) "/* How to */ more explicit call to action to join chat" (view diff)
#
[tantek] ^ gRegor please review
#
[tantek] capjamesg, yes, and in general the problem I mean is the first page someone creates is often far too Wikipedia like and not much IndieWeb like
#
gRegor Looks good
#
capjamesg Indeed. Looks good!
#
[tantek] so asking people to both join chat and state an intention here in #indieweb-meta before they create their new page seems like a good solution to that
#
[tantek] that'll prompt hopefully enough experienced people to provide guidance / help in the process
#
[tantek] gRegor, that "step for adding ... section" is in https://indieweb.org/expand_a_page
#
tantek.com edited /start_a_page (+9) "/* What next */ more explicit CTA, bolding" (view diff)
#
[tantek] per https://indieweb.org/start_a_page#What_next 🙂
#
[tantek] capjamesg, BTW re: "we should have a Gopher page" I don't disagree! As noted earlier in the chat: https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2023-03-24#t1679683010087000
#
Loqi [preview] [[tantek]] was just about to say, the /Gopher definition needs to directly include the present IndieWeb relevance, and that article needs an IndieWeb Examples section as the creator of the article's personal domain supports Gopher according to https://indieweb....
#
[tantek] capjamesg, do you have time to fix the Gopher page per ^ if I restore it right now?
#
IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I shall do so tomorrow.
#
IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> If you have the original maybe put it in a file that I can read?
#
[tantek] ok I'll restore and move it into your User: space
#
tantek.com created /capjamesg (+30) "r" (view diff)
#
tantek.com restored /Gopher "capjamesg will fix the page per wikify"
#
tantek.com moved /Gopher to /User:Jamesg.blog/Gopher "for capjamesg to work on"
#
[tantek] capjamesg, here you go: https://indieweb.org/User:Jamesg.blog/Gopher
#
IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Thank you!