#meta 2024-04-07
2024-04-07 UTC
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qubyte.codes edited /markdown (+369) "Adds my dialect of markdown to the list of IndieWeb examples." (view diff)
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[tantek] "indieweb-frontend" is really growing on me as a place to have welcoming (all levels) conversations about HTML+ARIA+mf2+CSS+SVG. recent blog post by Zeldman and this post by Brad Frost reminded me of how much this term appeals to user-focused folks: https://bradfrost.com/blog/post/full-stack-developers/
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[Joe_Crawford] I have worked several places and interviewed several places where front end is not a thing they consider important. So there’s only backend people who are in theory full stack but loathe CSS and JS and so everything is spaghetti jQuery or Angular or something homegrown. Because the business problems are solved in the database. And so, the programmers fear and loathe to work on anything toward the front end and consider JavaScript ev
# [Joe_Crawford] and CSS horrible. And why? Because that part was considered easy, they dropped in a framework and/or DOM library and it’s all CRUD db calls anyway, so how hard could it be? And who cares if it’s slow anyway, it’s fast enough. Things go on using JQuery from 2010 because if it worked then it’ll work now. So when I come in and put an emphasis on the front end and show off some nice tooling, linting, validation, nice html that a p
# [Joe_Crawford] can read and not go crazy trying to dissect where that extra closing div is: I seem like a wizard. But I’m not, I just started on front end and am not scared of it and in any code I work on I try to keep in mind the poor fool whose going to have to modify it in 5 years and make it easy. That’s backend or front end or everything in between. As a rule, unless a part of the stack GENERATES REVENUE businesses can’t see how on earth
# [Joe_Crawford] could be important. Leave Bootstrap from 2008 in place and the 3 versions of jQuery committed in place and out of date jQuery ui for the calendar widget and then lose lots of money on programmer time when some user complains about the widget not doing what it should anymore. Not sure I totally answered your question but what I read in those posts tracks with some of my experience.
# [Al_Abut] [tantek] thanks for the tag. Read both articles and [Joe_Crawford]’s response and have a lot of thoughts overall (these pieces read more as advocacy than capturing reality, I can expand on it if it’s useful or interesting to give my mix of business and design experience) but as for your specific question about whether it itches my scratch to talk about frontend? And whether I feel that burn enough to want a dedication channel? Yes
# [Al_Abut] absolutely, fantastic idea!
# [Al_Abut] I’d imagine that there’s others and that starting with frontend also makes for a much more useful on-ramp for keeping the spirit of the “layman’s web” alive. Whether this is an issue with the industry and we’ve lost our way is a bit of a red herring, a common one that I think would take more nuance and time to unpack.
# [Al_Abut] *dedicated channel
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# [Al_Abut] Yes, totally. And also I have this (really early unformed hunch) that the where the personal web actually *can* solve industry problems, but in a slow burn indirect “leading by example” kind of way. I’d alluded to the divide between the VC ecosystem of startups and the newer breed of bootstrapped businesses that have indieweb values, there’s something interesting brewing there that
# [Al_Abut] (whoops)
# [Al_Abut] …interesting brewing there that I haven’t fully digested yet, but I am seeing clear signs of.
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# [tantek] [Al_Abut] want to add your +1 to the # indieweb-frontend proposal here? I need to upgrade my vote there to +1 as well, I'm more optimistic about it given the discussion. https://indieweb.org/discuss#web_making_channel
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# [Al_Abut] Oh I see the discussion there now! I’ll pop in there now, thanks for highlighting it.
# [Al_Abut] Now that I see the context of the proposed names, I feel like we’re almost there and the channel should probably just be “frontend” with a prefix. Clearest and streamlined.
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www.ciccarello.me edited /garden (+107) "/* Anthony Ciccarello */ add link to GardenTags." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+359) "/* web making channel */ update votes. prefer indieweb-frontend now among various choices for reasons, note expected inclusion of technologies in its description" (view diff)
# [Al_Abut] [tantek] I see your note about why add the “indieweb-” prefix to a channel. One more bit of gentle pushback on that: doesn’t every channel within the indieweb chats have that implied as the main organizing principle? Recursive naming is more confusing than adding clarity.
# [Al_Abut] Ah, got it. I keep forgetting that Slack != the only channel. I still see recursive names on there (e.g. “chat”, “indieweb”) but no prefixes.
# [Al_Abut] I was thinking about those two channels the other day when I started a new Slack room for a project and saw the initial list of a handful of channels it comes with. “General” and “Random” seem closely analogous to our “Indieweb” and “Chat”.
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# [tantek] aaronpk, there's always a cost to a change, so if there isn't a significant enough marginal benefit to a renaming, it's not worth doing. people seem to get "-chat" pretty quickly, and "chat" is shorter than "off topic" or "off the record" or even something else like "ephemeral" or "ephemera"
# [tantek] re: "but -chat- doesn't imply that either, so changing to -off-topic wouldn't be a change there" <-- it WOULD be a change because right now people use "chat" for off the record but on-topic. if you rename it to "off topic" it will make it seem like those conversations are no longer welcome, which I don't think is something we want
# tantek.com edited /discuss (+345) "/* server split from dev */ slight negative on indieweb-server, same burden as -protocol" (view diff)
# [tantek] anyway, if there's a serious push to rename -chat with some alternatives, add a new subsection to https://indieweb.org/discuss#other_new_channels and we can at least capture pros/cons there since this debate may (likely?) come up again
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loqi.me created /chonkyweb (+20) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
# tantek.com edited /small_web (+944) "Variants, smol web / smolweb, smol net / smolnet / smol internet" (view diff)
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# loqi.me created /IndieWeb_train (+26) "prompted by [aciccarello] and redirect added by [aciccarello]" (view diff)
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