#meta 2025-12-05

2025-12-05 UTC
kloib joined the channel
#
artlung.com edited /User:Artlung.com (+168) "links to alt accounts and change elsewhere account to elsewhere link" (view diff)
#
Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
gRegor joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /antigravity (+48) "opposite! and a page on sites (dfn indieweb relevance)" (view diff)
#
gRegor Maybe a bit of a new year's resolution, though I'm not normally the type, but I think I'm tired of updating this template for each HWC and might not continue :) https://indieweb.org/Template:Homebrew_Website_Club
#
gRegor That's the template that gets included at the bottom of each HWC notes page. Can be handy to jump around, though I do wonder how often it gets used.
#
[tantek] as someone else who has maintained that template, I feel that
#
[tantek] it's also gotten quite large. a nav template that scrolls is uh, rare?
#
[tantek] I'll try to do some brainstorming on how to increase the information density even further
#
gRegor Yeah, sorry I didn't really have any alternatives to suggest, but wanted to put it out there :)
[snarfed] joined the channel
#
[tantek] I haven't gotten to any alternatives either tbh, and also wanted to put some thoughts / observations out there
#
[tantek] I do find the design of summarizing time-based information/nav to be an interesting problem
#
[tantek] good nav depends on both clear scannability, and information density so you don't have to scroll/paginate through a whole bunch of lists / whitespace (what designers seem to do by default) in order to find what you're looking for
#
tantek.com created /Flattr (+428) "stub with definition, projects, related efforts, sessions, see also" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /Flattr (+12) "domain" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /relspider (+8) "local link" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Schedule (+28) "/* Saturday 2014-06-28 */ give Berlin its own section with two links I found so far" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Berlin/Day-1 (+8) "linky" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Schedule (+10) "/* Berlin */ Saturday" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Schedule (+43) "/* Sunday 2014-06-29 */ Berlin Sunday" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Berlin/Day-2 (+66) "see also" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Berlin/Day-1 (+56) "see also" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Schedule/Berlin (+63) "See Also" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /payment (+78) "move Flattr to previous, local link, nowiki dead domain links" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Berlin/Day-1 (+16) "linky" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2025-12-indieweb-gift-calendar (+32) "+Flattr" (view diff)
gRegor joined the channel
#
gRegor NaNoWriMo << 2025-10-26 [https://blakewatson.com/journal/nanowrimo-is-dead-long-live-nanowrimo/ NaNoWriMo is dead, long live NaNoWriMo!]
#
Loqi ok, I added "2025-10-26 [https://blakewatson.com/journal/nanowrimo-is-dead-long-live-nanowrimo/ NaNoWriMo is dead, long live NaNoWriMo!]" to the "See Also" section of /National_Novel_Writing_Month https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=106348&oldid=104954
#
gRegor NaNoWriMo << 2025-04-02 [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/apr/02/creative-writing-nanowrimo-to-close-after-20-years Scandal-hit creative writing website NaNoWriMo to close after 20 years]
#
Loqi ok, I added "2025-04-02 [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/apr/02/creative-writing-nanowrimo-to-close-after-20-years Scandal-hit creative writing website NaNoWriMo to close after 20 years]" to the "See Also" section of /National_Novel_Writing_Month https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=106349&oldid=106348
vhbelvadi, [jeremycherfas] and Guest6 joined the channel
#
www.jacky.wtf edited /User:Www.jacky.wtf (-364) "things has changed!" (view diff)
[schmarty] joined the channel
#
[schmarty] jacky++
#
Loqi jacky has 4 karma over the last year
ben joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] That hwc template is getting close to where a month/week grid per year might be clearer - month down the side week across?
AnaOlivia and [Sophia_wood] joined the channel
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
[tantek] [KevinMarks] I may take a look at redesigning it during IWC SD hackday
#
[tantek] I don't think a month/week grid is the answer — that would have the opposite effect (make it larger) than what is desired IMO (smaller and more info dense)
#
[tantek] I do suspect some sort of grid or table-like usage of the space may help though
#
[tantek] (of the space per year, which is currently linear with line-breaks)
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
aaronpk larger isn't necessarily worse
#
[artlung] what is streamplace?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "streamplace" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "streamplace is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
[tantek] not necessarily, but usually (almost always) poor for information density
#
[artlung] Streamplace is a [[video]] [[streaming]] platform based on [[ATProto]] at https://stream.place
#
Loqi ok
#
loqi.me created /Streamplace (+122) "prompted by [artlung] and dfn added by [artlung]" (view diff)
#
artlung.com edited /Streamplace (+40) (view diff)
#
aaronpk information density is also not always necessarily the goal
#
artlung.com edited /Streamplace (+75) "add source link" (view diff)
#
[tantek] aaronpk, unless given another goal, information density is a good default goal for good UX for those sorts of things (nav), and for other things I refer to Tufte
#
[tantek] never said "the"
#
[tantek] big scrolling lists are definitely an anti-goal
#
[tantek] with way too much whitespace
#
[tantek] which is what a lot of default web design for these things does
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
[artlung] What is ATmosphere?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ATmosphere" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "ATmosphere is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
artlung.com edited /AT_Protocol (+84) "atmosphere" (view diff)
#
[artlung] atmosphere may refer to either the [[weather]] or to the ecosystem of the [[AT Protocol]]
#
[artlung] what is atmosphere?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "atmosphere" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "atmosphere is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
[artlung] atmosphere may refer to either the [[weather]] or to the ecosystem of the [[AT Protocol]].
#
artlung.com created /atmosphere (+94) "adding page" (view diff)
barnaby joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /WebSub (-17) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ -Woodwind from summary since it's unused/unmaintained" (view diff)
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
gRegor joined the channel
#
[tantek] [artlung] Loqi needs an "is" as the second word when responding to the "we don't have a page" prompt
#
[artlung] I think I inferred that. But I didn't want to use "is" because it's disambiguation. 🙂
#
[tantek] it does mean sometimes temporarily creating a grammatically awkward definition then fixing it up afterwards 🙂
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
[artlung] most of my additions this morning borne of listening to https://bsky.app/profile/hantohoncomb.at/ streaming on stream.place
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
[rose] joined the channel
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
[tantek] alright I have an idea for the HWC nav individual years
Kupietz joined the channel
#
[tantek] the line-wrapping of the days at no point in particular has always bothered me
#
[tantek] like a timeline should be a time *line*
#
[tantek] it was ok for 1-2 lines even barely acceptable for 3 lines but once we got to a block of 4-6 lines then it started to look like a mess
#
[tantek] in contrast, note that every "line" on /cities is an actual co-linear set of segments and everything is aligned in a grid left (earliest) to right (latest)
#
[tantek] aside, I'm that one is getting a bit wide / unwieldly (starts to not work well on mobile) so I'm thinking of splitting it into two halves, a historical first 10y (2011-2020) and then 2021-present at the top, with only the cities that have hosted an IWC from 2021-present.
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Berlin/Day-1 (+144) "dfn" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Berlin/Day-2 (+340) "dfn, subheads for projects" (view diff)
#
Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
[tantek] for HWC nav years I am thinking 52 very tight columns for the weeks, roughly grouped by months (only disgtinguished by alternating or graduated light color bands in the backgrounds and thin borders. row header cells with the emojis (that say their city on hover via abbr), column header cells that are only the numerical day (of the month) of the events in that column. I know there are edge cases to consider but I think this could work.
#
[tantek] that way we actually use the second dimension for information and can see the periodicity / activity / frequency of the different cities / regions that HWC is held as well
#
[tantek] each cell in the grid would link to the notes from that precise HWC (city x date)
#
[tantek] cell colors would be of course the same as the /cities colors
#
[tantek] ^ thoughts or do folks need a prototype to get a visual impression of what I'm talking about?
#
[tantek] this should theoretically make it easier to update as well
#
[tantek] if this looks like what I expect, I believe it will both result in a denser display of more information, and look "prettier" at a glance
#
gRegor I think I need something visual, though my first thought is 52 columns in MediaWiki table syntax sounds like a nightmare
#
gRegor Though I'm probably also not the target for this, since not planning to keep updating it :)
#
[tantek] yes 52 (or more) columns in ANY table syntax is a bit of a nightmare
#
[tantek] I think I could mitigate that somewhat by chunking them into one line of cells per month in the source
#
[tantek] that should make such table rows somewhat easier to read, verify, edit in the source
#
[tantek] part of my goal is to reduce the labor necessary to update it so *more* people can incidentally drop by an update it with less work
#
gRegor I'm confused what rows represent and what columns do. "52 columns for the weeks" but you also said "column header cells are only the numerical day", so that's why I think something visual will help
#
[tantek] rows represent cities/timezones
#
[tantek] columns represent weeks
#
gRegor If we're still linking to the date on events.indieweb.org and the local wiki page in this new design, it feels like similar level of complexity. It's still a lot of text to scroll through in the editor view. I guess I could have been putting each bullet on its own line when updating the current template, but I doubt that would encourage others to update it :)
#
[tantek] yes the label for a particular week column would be the specific numerical day (of the month)
#
[tantek] in general, time series displays, charts, nav etc. work well with a horizontal view of time the x-axis being the time axis. left is the past, right to the future
#
gRegor they represent weeks but we use day of month in the label?
#
Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-05.html
#
[tantek] yes that was the idea to keep the week column labels as short as possible
#
[tantek] that plus the different backgrounds for each "month" worth of weeks would help distinguish the day (of the month) numbers across months
#
gRegor Huh, I'll be interested to see it
#
[tantek] ok that's enough of a nudge to try to prototype using a previous year (to not disturb the current year)
#
[tantek] might help to see the different presentations next to each other as well to compare / contrast
#
gRegor For sure
#
[tantek] one (new) challenge would be that the height would grow with each new city/timezone
#
[tantek] since each of those gets its own row
#
[tantek] or maybe that makes a year look "cooler" than a previous year by showing growth in the number of cities/timezones year over year?
#
[tantek] that would convey yet another axis of information that's not obvious from the current design
#
tantek.com edited /2014/Schedule/Berlin (+125) "dfn" (view diff)