#microformats 2011-09-21

2011-09-21 UTC
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/eviwibowo] Pagi mbak2 @bungzie @MeaSandra @achypams @astrimcky @NandLib @janeanthrani @_onlynie_ @didiechaniago @eve_vanregar .harom bil hatom yak?
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/packdhe7] Sial ga bisa nembus executif longue garuda :(( #h*****hcard :(
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/ekonoviyanto] Pake CC RT @packdhe7: Sial ga bisa nembus executif longue garuda :(( #h*****hcard :(
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/arielwaldman] Headed to the @microformats meetup for the first time in forever. Yay, web geeks!
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/leadingsource] @RaleighPicks Have you ever heard of the hCard Program? It is getting ready to launch in Raleigh and will have daily coupon deals. TBC
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/leadingsource] @RaleighDaily The hCard Program is going to launch in a couple of weeks. Local business, schools, people & non-profits working together!
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aaronpk oh no
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/4evervital] hCard (Microformat for vCard) - Organize and share your code ...: <div class="vcard"> <p class="fn n"><span clas... http://t.co/cWUOc5UT
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] Microformats (@ Westfield San Francisco Centre w/ @chrismessina @t) http://t.co/6N4febBC
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] OH: how many volcanoes have fax machines? #microformats
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/voxpelli] @dalmaer @joehewitt The microformats process is a good one - first build, then find similarities in the built stuff and then adjust to them
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/fusionunlimited] Facebook Adds Microformats To “Download Your Info” Feature: http://t.co/eDSXBhws
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/Web30_m8y] Microformats | About Microformats http://t.co/NfhAXhUD #web30
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/just_sam] if you liked 'helvetica' and 'objectified', On in london in Oct http://t.co/6lSddcrT .Why don't they use microformats-vEvent tags BAH!
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tantek edited /hcard-examples-in-wild (+349) "/* Organizations */ Pinewood Shepperton plc" (view diff)
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tantek edited /microformats-2 (+469) "JSON output: prefixes are merely identifying/parsing directives and thus unnecessary in the JSON, also need type obv, and everything is syntactically plural (not singular)" (view diff)
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tantek edited /microformats-2 (-99) "add e-* per discussion at microformats dinner, see [[microformats-2-prefixes]] for more details" (view diff)
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tantek edited /microformats-2-prefixes (+789) "e-* is in thanks to Ben Ward making good cases for both maintaining hAtom entry-content fidelity, and enabling markup fidelity pass-thru in general." (view diff)
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phae edited /process (+1033) "/* related issues questions regarding document stages */ added some further thoughts on standard reversal" (view diff)
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phae edited /User:Phae (-109) "fed up of updating my details. pointing to /about" (view diff)
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tantek lol
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Phae :)
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Phae you'd have thought i'd have learnt my lesson about that by now.
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tantek Phae, part of the thinking with explicitly regressing unproductive or ignored drafts or specs is to avoid the problem the W3C has with stagnant / abandoned Recommendations, Working Drafts etc - people confusedly think they're real even though they're not in practice.
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tantek thus when things are implicitly ignored/abandoned, it behooves us to communicate that explicitly
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Phae I agree. I guess I was partly querying how clearly we ought to distinguish between rubbish drafts and useful ones without enough folk putting in effort on them (although lack of the latter tends to indicate the former)
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tantek we aren't being negative per se, we're merely communicating a negative fact explicitly
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Phae i guess
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Phae yeah
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tantek we should err on the side of clarity rather than politeness for technical specs I think - it's not like the specs have feelings (though their authors might)
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Phae i do agree. archive is just a funny word. archive doesn't feel that explicit either way. i think that's what i was getting at.
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tantek agreed
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tantek "archive" implies more merit than abandoned drafts deserve
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tantek perhaps we should just make the entire process two-way
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tantek just as brainstorms beget drafts beget specs beget standards
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tantek we can stipulate if/when standards revert to specs revert to drafts revert to brainstorms
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tantek or maybe we let standards remain as standards because of the interoperability component
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tantek those in particular might make sense to "archive"
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tantek in that they did reach a "final" level of stability and proving themselves out
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tantek at some point in time
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Phae yeah, that's what i think archive means. 'these were once standards, or pretty much there, but they became out of date'
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tantek whereas all other states can unwind/revert
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tantek right
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Phae there should be a place for all of the above to be rejected though, at any stage
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Phae so maybe we just need a big warehouse bucket of things that didn't work
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tantek I think that's what brainstorming captures
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tantek all ideas good and bad
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tantek and that's ok that they're all mixed in there
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tantek someone might find something they can re-use elsewhere for example
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tantek one person's trash and all that...
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Phae i guess, i just thought it might bring focus to the brainstorms that are still pretty active, and those that have stagnated
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Phae perhaps this is just a data view problem. active brainstorms etc. need an easier way to be found
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tantek so maybe a way to fork-off rejected brainstorms then
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tantek foo-brainstorms-rejected
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tantek to keep foo-brainstorms more focused on those that are active
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Phae yeah. i don't want to hide that useful research, just not get people landing on those first or by mistake
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tantek yes
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Phae i'd rather people who wanted to work on something saw 5 really active things and not a lot else, than a jumble of dozens. might mean those 5 get worked through faster.
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Phae i know you've been following slightloff/brendan etcs debates on w3c. i think we can take point on needing to focus too.
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tantek or moreso - enabling/encouraging focus
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Phae yes
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tantek better if our processes / customs naturally encourage pragmatic focus
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tantek while providing an outlet for documenting rejected / dropped ideas
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Phae i agree
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tantek because it's valuable to have them around to point people to who bring them up again later
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Phae definitely
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tantek (something W3C is sorely lacking in - documenting the paths not taken or paths rejected)
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Phae i would like us to strip back some of the initial landing views and clarify what's hot right now, in some way, i guess.
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Phae we have *a lot* of information
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tantek initial landing views?
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Phae it can be overwhelming
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Phae like, the wiki intro pages
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tantek we might be talking about different things
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Phae they're long
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tantek ah yes, we are
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tantek so maybe a simple flow diagram for the process itself
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Phae no, we're not. but take a view on the current specs/brainstorm
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Phae there's like, a zillion links and infos
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Phae i dunno. i am veering off a bit. sorry
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tantek no problem at all - I agree we need to make our pages all more incremental and accessible
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Phae erg. the wiki is grinding to a halt for me now, anyway :)
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tantek I was trying to start with the process in particular
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Phae yeah
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tantek since that's sort of at the core of our strengths (vs. W3C etc.)
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Phae yep. seems sensible to me
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tantek but yes - better iA / nav / discovery from the home page to wiki home to other pages is key too
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tantek in addition to just making the specs easier to pick up and quickly use
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tantek because that's where most folks land (I think - need to check stats)
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tantek they search for a microformat, they find the spec, they expect to quickly see examples / how-to.
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Phae yes
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tantek I think that's actually *more* important than the home page(s)
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tantek but I don't have the data to back it up - purely a hunch based on how I see developers/designers look for resources on the web
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tantek edited /microformats-2-brainstorming (+1379) "adopt itemref isomorphically for microformats 2 rather than the [[include-pattern]]" (view diff)
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Phae yeah
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Phae i have the same hunch
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Phae looks for the todo list
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tantek so I've been using hCard (spec) as the prototype for spec style improvement
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tantek e.g. compare http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar to http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview
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Phae yeah. our todo list is shameful :) i'll work on that later on. *adds meta todo todo list to wunderlist*
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Phae yeah, the hcard one is better
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tantek thanks - that's good to hear
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tantek based on feedback on hCard, I've been slowly redoing hCalendar similarly
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tantek hReview is largely still in the "old" style
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Phae okay
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tantek which BTW, is very much based on W3C style of specs
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Phae yeah
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tantek as a result of me learning spec-writing there ;)
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tantek and taking it as the "way" to write specs, until I got lots of direct feedback from developers / designers complaining etc., got better at writing, etc. etc.
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Phae yeah, makes sense.
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Phae did i see you sign up to a schema.org event?
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tantek I think hCard can be even better still. It's like once you fix one pain point, the others are easier to see.
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tantek yes
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tantek I should be sleeping now
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Phae yes
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Phae :)
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tantek have to get up in 3 hours
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tantek all day schema.org workshop tomorrow hosted by Microsoft in Mountain View
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tantek Kevin Marks is also attending
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Phae hmm. okay
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tantek we held an open microformats meetup last night (er, still tonight by my wakefulness) to openly collect issues, feedback, suggestions, goals etc.
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tantek so we have a pretty good idea now
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Phae i saw
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Phae okay
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Phae i'll await news on how that turns out :)
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tantek the key is this: microformats still has the vast majority of momentum, and microformats has an active diverse broad community - something neither microdata, nor schema, nor even RDFa has.
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tantek so it's up to us to be the graceful established players here, and be open to incorporating other work as brainstorms towards potential microformats
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tantek obviously we're not going to be simply rubber-stamping everything
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Phae agreed
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tantek or anything
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tantek but rather, taking and respecting others' works as input to the process to help developer better microformats
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tantek the more we show we're open to input, the more it strengthens our community and grows it to include additional voices
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/jazzvox] We'll talk about http://t.co/Yg0iJkce | http://t.co/iFrtVwLA and more @praktikumlab today 4:30pm #SMW AufbauHaus Xberg
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Phae yeah. plus it's incentive to get some of our own work done.
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tantek btw how's your JSON?
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Phae it's alright. why?
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Phae go to bed.
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Phae i'll still be sat in the same desk chair when you get back up, afterall.
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tantek wanted to get your opinion on the microformats 2 JSON output brainstorms
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#simple_microformats_2_examples
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Phae ah, okay. i'll add that to my list too.
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tantek thanks - might come in particularly handy tomorrow
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tantek we'll be discussing syntax and such
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Phae okay
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Phae i'll look over lunch
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phae edited /to-do (+153) "/* Frances Berriman */ notes for me" (view diff)
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tantek and since microformats 2 addresses the lack of simple extensibility issue that the microdata/schema folks raised, I'll be looking for any holes.
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Phae yeah
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/harvey1dash8] Microformat randomness.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/iciclemon] @nora1313 おめでとう・・・＾＾　嫁がせたくない子は主人公にしておくといいってHATOM様が言ってたよ
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/iciclemon] @hato711 HATOMという作られたキャラクターではなく天草黒陽としてデビューしたいんだっけ
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phae edited /to-do (+125) "/* Frances Berriman */ note to add spec list to code and tools page" (view diff)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/praktikumlab] what a fitting topic for a microclass: @jazzvox on microformats and more 16.30 #smwberlinpraktikumlab
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/praktikumlab] what a fitting topic for a microclass! on microformats @jazzvox on microformats and more 16.30 #smwberlinpraktikumlab
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/richardbaxter] @bill_slawski the irony being rel="*" is a microformat, though the search engines are pushing schema! bit of a disconnect...
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/richardbaxter] @bill_slawski almost everything Google has done with microformats since rel="nofollow" has upset the microformats community
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/praktikumlab] Do you *really* know your microformats? Up next: http://t.co/rCmc53Y0
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kzakza] ちょうど今、やっている。 / “schema.org workshop · Microformats Wiki” http://t.co/891OPtC2
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/victorporof] Hey @google, if you find a hcard in a webpage, or <address>, why don't you show relevant information about this stuff in search?
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/davidcochran] Amazing to me that there is no microformat draft for books: titles, authors, publishers, dates, etc.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/TwitLluis] Insistint amb el tema de microformats, microdata i rich snippets http://t.co/yJlsBLMB. Esperant i desitjant resultats ...
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KevinMarks hm, sitting next to tantek, hixie and danbri it's like irc in person
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danbri ahoyhoy
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danbri wonders if microformat-using sites ought to be in http://ckan.net/ (directory of datasets)
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tantek greetings
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tantek schema.org workshop IRC discussion in #schema
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Phae nerds.
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danbri re http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2 ... is there any code that'll take a page and extract that json?
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danbri Phae :)
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KevinMarks there is a high nerd denisty here today, yes
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Phae :)
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KevinMarks density, not dentistry
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tantek danbri - Shane B. has a Ruby library
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tantek that parses microformats 2
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tantek but given that it's quite a fluid draft right now, I'm not sure how up to date it is
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danbri googles it, didn't find it yet
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danbri can you expand the "B."
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tantek microformats was described as "first, simple, rigid"
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] tags for #microformats from NY guy 'first, simple ,rigid' o_O never been called rigid before, is that good? #schemaorg
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t] #schemaorg I complimented @hixie on #microdata itemref. let's reuse in microformats 2 #uf2 over include-pattern: http://t.co/42S4uEq4
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danbri rigid - like 'stable' maybe?
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Phae no one says rigid like stable. you say strong, dependable...
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KevinMarks was his goal turgid over rigid?
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] OH: "I don't know where they get this recipe data from" - it's called hRecipe: http://t.co/LjFPEsRu #microformats #schemaorg
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] if you want to know where the hRecipe markup came from, you can read the research: http://t.co/d37FzRZ1 http://t.co/uVAFoJ9L #schemaorg
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/ronmartinez] "Recipes that are not for stuff meant to be eaten by humans are out of scope." hRecipe microformat http://t.co/xZzDaQ8v via @kevinmarks
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/paulmadsen] New microformat used to complain about how nobody is using microformats
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kevin marks edited /breadcrumbs-formats (+212) "/* add more formats */ schema.org" (view diff)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t] #schemaorg syntax session: @benadida acknowledges #RDFa rel=license was based on @microformats rel-license. #history (ttk.me/t4Dy8)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] #schemaorg @KaviGoel: this is a microformat example, but the principle is the same for schema.org
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/jazzvox] #Microdata #Microformats : the Markup Machine behind the Social Media GUI's lets it happen
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] #schemaorg @danbri: microformats 2 is in a similar direction to RDF and microdata: Attribute-Value pairs grouped into packets
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t] To everyone at #schemaorg, you saw @benadida's RDFa talk, now go read microformats 2 #uf2, please give feedback: http://t.co/OnDn4ROf
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/toddbarnard] @ciberch Nay (should be using @microformats)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/nicolastorzec] Schema.org meeting today. How does it relates to other vocabularies? Future of RDFa & Microformats for Search Engines? http://t.co/ozBxv5M4
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t1c1] @ciberch Microdata? Nay. Use multiple formats - microdata @microformats(2) #RDFa #schemaorg
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/benadida] @t @microformats I have always acknowledged the vision of microformats, even when I disagree with specifics.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t1c1] microformats 2.0 · Microformats Wiki http://t.co/nXRfmmgw @alp_lv
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/richardtvaughan] @bill_slawski <abbr> are good for marking up microformats on pages where they are tricky to implement without hiding content.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/meyerweb] Bonus points for an invitation service that generates invite pages with useful hCalendar (and optionally hCard, hGeo, et cetera).
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paroneayea waves to tantek
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paroneayea is Christopher Allan Webber from CC
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Phae man. i still wish i knew what a webmaster was. pretty sure it's regular devs doing markup.
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tantek hi Christopher!
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paroneayea Phae: :)
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tantek welcome!
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paroneayea waves!
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KevinMarks yay, we're xyz now
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Loqi woot
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tantek heh
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KevinMarks blogger generates microformats (I put hAtom in myself)
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Phae xyz?
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KevinMarks someone said "you could mark it up with microdata, RDf, or xyz"
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Phae oh, lovely.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] #schemaorg @t: as http://t.co/KkjeFHa4 is CC0, anyone an use it the research there, even schema.org
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] #schemaorg @t: if you want a wiki to document schema ideas and extensions, http://t.co/KkjeFHa4 is available for this exact purpose
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/computerklaus] Rich Snippets, Microformats e como deixar seu site bonito no Google http://t.co/F9hz0jNO via @seodesaia
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/kevinmarks] #schemaorg Guha: microformats weren't organised into a single coherent whole
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Loqi inside google we had a lot of people making things up.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/MadeByPi] Facebook Adds Microformats To “Download Your Info” Feature: http://t.co/VnSvhUuZ
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t] possible positive take: treat each #schemaorg 'type' as a proposal for @microformats brainstorming and add to the wiki (ttk.me/t4DyA)
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KevinMarks pmika keeps using the word "simple" I don't think it means what he thinks it means
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Phae so, i've taken all of the commentary as entirely disheartening. meh.
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hober how enthusiastic are the people present at the schema workshop WRT joining the new html data tf?
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hober tantek: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20110921#l-435
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/douglas_seo] SEO de saia explica como deixar seu site bonito nos resultados de busca do Google usando os microformatos http://t.co/wl9yfhJq
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KevinMarks I suspect they're likely to be the most enthusiastic
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KevinMarks if they'll come here for a day of this
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hober heh
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tantek yeah
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tantek is already subscribed to public-vocabs@w3.org since the SemTech BOF blow-up
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t] just volunteered the @microformats wiki for collecting research and brainstorms for #schemaorg and formats in general. (ttk.me/t4DyC)
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tantek greetings andr3 and milk
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milk heylo
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andr3 hya tantek.
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andr3 +1 on volunteering the wiki.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/jensscherbl] @t Great to hear that :-) #schemaorg #microdata #microformats
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t] sad that #schemaorg has now *fragmented* Person/Organization vocabs when vCard/hCard/PoCo etc. have broad convergence. (ttk.me/t4DyD)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t] update: sad #schemaorg fragments Person vocab when vCard/hCard/PoCo/OGP/OpenSocial has broad convergence (@kevinmarks) (ttk.me/t4DyE)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/Malarkey] Adding Microformats to the new http://t.co/4WfZPdKI design and thinking that @t would somehow approve.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/jasoneccles] @Malarkey microformats or schema.org? - doesn't it make sense to move to schema.org as both google & bing say that's their preference.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/t] says @malarkey: "Adding Microformats to the new http://iso.org design." Yes, *that* ISO. cc: #schemaorg, @microformats (ttk.me/t4DyF)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/Malarkey] @t So far we have hCard, hCalendar and hAtom in #iso. I’d love it if you’d take a look at the designs.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/microformats] @jasoneccles @Malarkey said pref is misconception: eg Bing "Our crawlers do not prefer one specification over another": http://t.co/EgtnvIe6
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/jasoneccles] @microformats @Malarkey Is it just me then or does it feel like #schemaorg and some open graph markups didn't really need to be created?
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/YoungbloodJoe] @KoilChasidim it appears that microformats has a draft for products: http://t.co/DK1pV98h warning the draft markup can change
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/swirlee] I'm pretty excited about this @ICPL: http://t.co/FUoyP0nu But... neither the blog nor the event calendar(?!) has iCal or hCalendar links. :(
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t1c1 created /User:T1c1 (+134) "Added info" (view diff)