#microformats 2012-04-10

2012-04-10 UTC
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/AymanAboulnasr] Previously from LatestWP: Make your Review Articles Stand out in Google Search Results Pages with hReview... http://t.co/ByaKS5pE #wordpress
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tianshishiabn edited /hcard-examples-in-wild (+110) "/* related pages */" (view diff)
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tantek edited /hcard-examples-in-wild (-110) "Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Tianshishiabn|Tianshishiabn]] ([[User talk:Tianshishiabn|Talk]]) to last version by [[User:BPethullis|BPethullis]]" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Tianshishiabn]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek edited /hcard (-1) "/* Properties */ "use Ms for women... unless they have expressed a preference for Miss or Mrs" per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms. / The Guardian" (view diff)
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tantek edited /hcard (+0) "re-order n subproperties in common properties summary by order commonly published" (view diff)
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tantek edited /hcard (+2328) "/* Properties */ longer example hCard demonstrating list of common properties" (view diff)
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tantek edited /hcard (+121) "fix some alignment, simpler intro, shorter descriptions, nowrap so they align even when narrower, float both to avoid text overlapping" (view diff)
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tantek edited /hcard (+3) "/* Properties */ use time element for bday" (view diff)
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tantek ok another update to the list of common hCard properties - added a line-by-line example adjacent to the list: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Properties
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tantek please take a look and see if that helps with the introduction of common properties (which I think is the 2nd most common thing people will look for after the very simple examples at the top) http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard - cc: Phae aaronpk hober mkowens singpolyma
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/StepUpWeb] hCard Как использовать для сайта? Советы http://t.co/b3EUzgC2
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ChiefRA hi tantek I'll have a look
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tantek thanks ChiefRA
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tantek edited /hcard (-1) "/* Properties */ left left floats for more predictable layout" (view diff)
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tantek ok with that minor styling tweak the new common "properties" section and line-by-line example should be good to go
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tantek good morning Phae, would appreciate your review/thoughts of the usability/readability of the new section I added to the hCard spec, in terms of how it reads from the beginning: microformats.org/wiki/hcard
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Loqi *yawn* it looks like overcast
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neuro` Morning
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tantek morning neuro - take a look at microformats.org/wiki/hcard and let me know what you think of the new list of common properties and example next to it
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neuro` tantek: I was reading it
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barnabywalters IMO that is a significant improvement — much clearer and more useful
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neuro` I like it. Would have probably put the code part on the left though
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neuro` Plus no vertical separator between the code and its explanation makes it a little harder to read.
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tantek neuro - I've heard the opposite (about left vs right) - I think having the more english readable list on the left is a nicer reference for most folks
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tantek and the code on the right provides a good learning reminder for newer folks
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tantek when you say no vertical separator - are you saying the two columns are next to each other?
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tantek like too close to each other?
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tantek and thanks barnabywalters!
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barnabywalters np
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barnabywalters anything that makes microformats easier to implement and understand is good in my book
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neuro` tantek: just did some tests, and a visual separator doesn't add any readability, so forget about it. And yes, for normal people, English first, code second makes sense.
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Phae hey tantek. i'll get to it. first day back after time away, so i'm a bit swamped this morn. should have some time this evening.
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ChiefRA tantek: a) I would somehow combine the "Property list" section with "Properties" one-on-one (making only one section) b) I would of placed "Properties" 1st, then "Property list" 2nd and then "Property notes" sections first and then the "Example" one for usability.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/tadayoshinori] @hatom_ne せやで！！
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/glennjones] Nice use of hCard and OpenGraph data ‘Save to foursquare’ button https://t.co/Qs4MesnI
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tantek ChiefRA - I had considered including all the properties in the "Properties" section at the top, but decided not to for usability reasons.
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Loqi http://loqi.me/42Q
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tantek The vast majority of authors using hCard don't care about *all* the properties
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tantek In addition, I've had the suggestion from folks that they want/need to see very simple a markup example of each property as they're reading the simple list, and as such the side-by-side layout is the most compact I could come up with (being able to see as much of that on the screen at once also improves usability)
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tantek Finally, the decision to do the markup example of each property next to the list of common properties led to realizing it should all make sense as part of a single composite example which you could copy/paste (which people *will* do because that's what they do with example) and thus it made sense to reduce the common properties set down to what people actually *do* commonly publish.
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tantek Thus a) we still need a "property list" section with the full list of properties *somewhere else* (that I'm still figuring out how to best design), and b) keeping the example of the common properties adjacent to the list of common properties themselves is *better* for usability, than separating them into different sections where people would have to scroll back/forth to look at a property definition vs. use in markup.
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tantek Alternatively, if you think you've figured out a better content design for that section, try a sample edit of it on your user page, and show some folks in comparison to what's on hCard right now and see what feedback you get.
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tantek Every one of these recent content design iterations on the hCard spec has been based directly on feedback from multiple individuals.
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tantek Phae, welcome back, and whenever you can get to it would be great. Hopefully it won't take more than 5-10 min to review and get a feeling for.
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tantek hmm, I wonder if Loqi has a pattern match for verb all the nouns and then turns it into an image.
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Loqi is done
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mkowens tantek: I feel like there's probably two sets of properties, sort of like "Core" and "Extended" properties. I don't exactly know how to delineate them, but the current list seems fine as of right now, in my opinion (at least with the limitations of the wiki format).
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tantek mkowens - yeah, in theory there shouldn't need to be such a delineation, due to the process and 80/20 rule, but in practice with hCard and hCalendar I took all of vCard and iCalendar and that was probably a mistake.
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tantek that being said, even some of the presumably 80/20 properties from research end up not being used as often as the data would have led us to expect
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tantek btw I despise the term "core" because it's almost always just a replacement for a "pure judgment call"
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mkowens Actually, I don't think that was a mistake.
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tantek "common" to me implies at least there's some data/experience with actual usage in the wild
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tantek mkowens, fair enough. including all of vCard and iCalendar EVENT object was perhaps not so much a mistake as a "best first guess" that I should have iterated further on and dropped various properties accordingly.
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mkowens And yes, "Core" is sometimes a "pure judgement call" but "Common" and "Uncommon" doesn't feel right for defining spec. :-\
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mkowens Anyway, standup. I'll be back in a bit.
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tantek re: defining a spec, that's the irony, the use of "core" is in practice less precise than the use of "common"
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tantek ooh standups - you know my opinion/experience on those.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/mefiblogger] Hirtelen beindult a mezÅ‘ny, már csak hátom ember a sorban!!
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mkowens Yeah. I'm not a fan. And you're probably right regarding the use of "Common" versus "Core." I just feel like the connotation of "Core" and "Common" are both different. "Common" feels—to me, at least—not definitive, but rather entirely observational.
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tantek observational tends to be better than a priori
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tantek I've yet to see someone good at defining "core"
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mkowens tantek: what about the DOM Core? Doesn't that represent a pretty good definition of "core"?
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tantek mkowens - no it practice it was a disaster
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tantek originally, DOM Core meant "stuff from XML that no one actually uses when writing JS on the web"
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tantek vs. DOM HTML
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tantek it was a political split
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mkowens Oh. Okay.
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tantek DOM Core was the clean based on XML/Java and nearly useless/unusable part of the DOM
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tantek perfect example to prove my point
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mkowens I guess that's why DOM4 dropped the "Core" in the title (even though it's still in the URL)?
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tantek yeah that would make sense
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mkowens Point conceded.
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tantek so yes, any time you see someone refer to "core", in a spec, ask them, what makes it "core"? what are the practical distinctions between "core" and other parts?
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tantek edited /hcard (-44) "/* Properties */ tighten up the columns so they're closer together" (view diff)
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dchavez created /air_conditioning_repair_katy_tx (+1245) "local home service company in Katy, Texas offering air conditioning repair." (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Dchavez]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek deleted /air_conditioning_repair_katy_tx "content was spam"
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tantek edited /hcard (-59) "move the "want to get started" to just after the list/example of common properties" (view diff)
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tantek edited /hcard (-3) "bit more space after common properties list, copy edit want to get started points" (view diff)
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tantek edited /hcard (-1) "a bit more spacing" (view diff)
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anneliviasimoes edited /hlisting (+184) "/* Examples in the Wild */" (view diff)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/GlennF] Does Apple support any microformats in Mail? Its own or hCalendar or what have you? I thought so. Docs are horrible.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters] @idiot Why have you made a vcard style site without marking it up with hcard? Surely that's the… purpose?
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tantek barnabywalters - good point. he could use hCard and rel=me both on his "vcard style site" as well as on his blog home page where he links to several other profiles: http://visualidiot.com/
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barnabywalters ARGH!! TOO MANY PROFILE PAGES! How does he justify the expenses for all the random domains he manages?!
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tantek hah - maybe he's addicted to domains? ;)
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tantek I don't understand his latest tweet - does he dislike semantic class names?
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barnabywalters he owns upsidedownkittens.com for god's sake
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barnabywalters and there's nothing on it!
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barnabywalters I think he means the vCard style sites
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/idiot] @BarnabyWalters Trouble is, though, I try to give as little info away as possible, which means it probably fails hCard validation.
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barnabywalters I hadn't heard of them before he mentioned them
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tantek all an hCard needs to be valid is an 'fn' - the examples are right there at the top of the spec! http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
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singpolyma hCard validation :P part of the problem with microformats listing "required attributes" is people get the dumb idea that if they don't have those attributes, they shouldn't use the microformat
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tantek singpolyma - agreed - hence why everything is optional in microformats-2 - we've learned our lesson.
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singpolyma that was a fight I used to have with people over hAtom all the time
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tantek which side of the fight?
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singpolyma I just publish "invalid" microformats, because I consider microformats useful guidelines on taxonomy, not stone tablets :)
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barnabywalters I think he's just trying to make some point about vCard sites… trouble is, I'm not sure exactly what :|
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tantek invalid how?
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tantek also - note that the "required" properties in hCard/hCalendar/hAtom came directly from the requirements in vCard/iCalendar/Atom - and carrying that "required" semantic forward was a mistake (I'll take responsibility for that)
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tantek whereas what I should have simply done is describe how to generate any such required other-format properties from the respective microformats
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singpolyma invalid in that I was either missing a required attribute (I think author is "required" in hAtom, or was). or the wrong format (I used to publish hAtom with wrong-formatted dates all the time)
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tantek well the author requirement is going away - so you're fine there (and helped shape the evolution/iteration)
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tantek what kind of dates do you publish?
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singpolyma yes, I know :) I'm not complaining, just saying
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barnabywalters I initially published Atom feeds with normal datetimes
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singpolyma I publish valid <time> these days :) Back in the day I would just dump whatever the default format on my Blogger system was, because that used to be the only option.
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barnabywalters YYYY-MM-DD HH-MM-SS and the like
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tantek "normal" ?!? (according to what cultural norms? ;) )
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/idiot] @BarnabyWalters Using http://t.co/csbtVbwG generates some awful markup. Plus, semantics are bad: did you not see Terminator?
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tantek barnabywalters - perhaps we could help him out with some example markup
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barnabywalters Somehow I don't think it's worth it. But we can but try
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tantek ah, he doesn't like the hCard generator - interesting
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singpolyma because my hAtom parsers can happily handle any date format (and that's all I ever parsed it with) and also because I consider some semantics ("this is the date") better than none ("this is some text")
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tantek any date format?
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tantek like 4/10/12 ?
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tantek :P
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singpolyma well, "any sensible" :P
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singpolyma I use fuzzy date parsers for everything
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tantek fuzzy means different things to different people
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tantek fuzzy itself is fuzzy
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singpolyma I've never liked the hCard/hCal creators either, but I just ignore them and make my own stuff happily :)
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singpolyma sure
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters] @idiot No, I haven't see terminator. And I dislike that generator too, there's a better guide at http://t.co/E8IZqb2F
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tantek singpolyma - the creators are better than nothing
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singpolyma sure
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singpolyma again, I'm not complaining
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singpolyma I like microformats :)
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barnabywalters I prefer working from examples than generators, but low barrier of entry is good
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tantek and they're open source to encourage folks to make better versions :)
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singpolyma yeah
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tantek so if you don't like them, make better ones!
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barnabywalters Okay, I will
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barnabywalters for me the key is making one that you can customise to fit with your code layout style
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singpolyma I don't know if something like the hCard creator can be made very good, but I'm willing to be proven wrong :) Usually CMS plugins work well IME
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tantek yeah we have those too: http://microformats.org/wiki/cms
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tantek barnabywalters - it wouldn't take many code changes to hCard-ify @idiot's .vc site
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singpolyma yup :)
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tantek e.g. <div class="vcard">
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barnabywalters heh. perhaps 25 characters to make it a 'valid' hcard?
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tantek <h2>The name&rsquo;s <span class="fn nickname">Idiot</span>.</h2>
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singpolyma is the whole site just one hCard? could put class="vcard" on <body> ;)
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tantek (this is on idiot.vc)
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tantek <a class="url" rel="me" href="//visualidiot.com">anything off my blog</a>
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tantek and
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tantek <a class=url rel=me href="//twitter.com/idiot">Twitter</a>, <a class=url rel=me href="//forrst.me/vi">Forrst</a>, or <a class=url rel=me href="//dribbble.com/vi">Dribbble</a>
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tantek that should do it
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singpolyma oh, gross, that site's links animate when I hover them
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singpolyma yeah, looks pretty simple
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barnabywalters *Tries hovering ARGH! the jaggies have come. That's hideous
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singpolyma it's the 90s again!
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singpolyma 90s happy dance
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barnabywalters but this time, it's 'tasteful'. With blue and sans serif and all
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barnabywalters tantek - reckon you could fit all the markup he needs in a single tweet?
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mkowens On Mac in Chrome, I see no jaggies. I bet in Windows on IE it does.
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mkowens ^.^
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barnabywalters mac safari. I doubt there'd be any jaggies in IE… unless he's using some kind of -ms-transform
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tantek barnabywalters, since this channel is logged, you could just send him an IRC log link like this: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20120410#l-199
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tantek (i've highlighted the relevant markup lines)
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mkowens Nah. I was referring to the fact that any sort of text-shadow or -ms-animation (both of which are made use of) cause jaggies in IE.
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barnabywalters not sure that'd have the same sort of impact factor as 'here it is, all in a tweet' :)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/c2lexbx] @wenyunchao Category:Articles with hCards - WikiMommy