#microformats 2012-05-10

2012-05-10 UTC
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:FriersonLlewellyn286]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/comeoninside] http://t.co/lDXRHoUc hCard has a ROSE of a gift for your Mom!
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tantek !spammer comeoninside
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Loqi Got it! There are now 38 spammers blacklisted
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tantek !spammer gildartscliv3
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Loqi Got it! There are now 39 spammers blacklisted
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/masaki456] @hatom_ne なにそれ？？
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/CAAMinLA] Urban Issues Breakfast Forum- Author Michelle Alexander @CAAMinLA 7:30am Food served Prog@8am Fri,5/11 FREE #helioscal http://t.co/nCLZLwJk
danbri, tantek, kennyluck_, jkridner, kennyluck and Cat4D joined the channel
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Cat4D why are there no comprehensive schema structures???
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Cat4D and why are these idiots trying to undermine the world? http://www.schema.org/docs/full.html
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Cat4D and there are no abstract ontology viewers?
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tantek Cat4D - "comprehensive schema" is a bit of an oxymoron ;)
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Cat4D its comprehensive in its inclusion of structure and capability
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Cat4D where type of numbers are defined, then composite structures like mailing address
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tantek Cat4D - no need to namecall ("idiots"), and perhaps attempting to "defined the world" can be mistaken for "undermine the world"
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Cat4D with appropriate output representations
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Cat4D ... its such a simple requirement
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Cat4D but the institutions continually undermine and prevent such simple standards
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tantek that does seem to be a common pattern
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Cat4D i had the usdoj.gov and related parties physically steal one such system with abstract 3d visualization in the 90s
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tantek large institutions seem to develop overly complex standards
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Cat4D im really sick of this problem now
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Cat4D i went looking for a standard contextual document citation structure and syntax
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tantek Cat4D - being sick of a problem is a good sign to work on a different problem and come back eventually. ;)
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Cat4D hehe
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tantek yeah, that's an interesting problem space "standard contextual document citation structure and syntax"
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Cat4D the tree above is horrible
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Cat4D absolutely fails to comprehend basic data structure
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tantek sure
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Cat4D any attempt to use it will undermine future strucutre advancemenet
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tantek I've been doing research of existing citation formats and styles, looking for common patterns
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tantek you might find it of interest to the problem you mentioned
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats
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Cat4D i just wanted a standard to include both islamic and western CE date forms in the citation structure
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tantek interesting. do you know of real world examples on the web of people publishing such content/citation examples?
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Cat4D they cant even get that right, but worse, is the islamic council unfortionately doesnt comprehend structured contexts, which upset me because those groups are usually ahead on these topics
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tantek that would help with coming up with a practical design.
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Cat4D id live to find more, but citations have no searchable reference ... aka none say "CITATION:"
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Cat4D so unless its a known type definition or syntax, or pattern match... but that defeats the exploratory purpose
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Cat4D i also need some parallel between transcripts and sections of video content,
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Cat4D segments etc
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Cat4D for which there is absolutely none
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Cat4D if i want to point at the cat in the referenced frames at time or frame index offsets and say "its orange"
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Cat4D why am i prevented?
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Cat4D so, now i just want to reference the context of a text or image block in print media today, and noone can even get a date correct
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Cat4D for publications
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Cat4D ...
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Cat4D no less attributive accreditation for composite structures and advanced data types, like 3d models
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Cat4D its upsetting the world has been undermined for ... continuously
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Cat4D but for there to be no book/mag.page(s).article/subcontent... standard citation
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Cat4D ... why are there media companies and western imperial systems if they cant even substantiate their own scribbles?
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Cat4D not to mention word offsets or lines for quotes
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Cat4D wtf... even the obama executive order of a few weeks ago we had to reference failed to use line numbers
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Cat4D WHAT USE ARE THEY, these institutions?
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Cat4D then of course, is the chaotic attractor of type diversitites
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Cat4D "no can have better abstraction and content classification than US!"
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Cat4D coughs classified
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Cat4D any other primitive data representation structures with reference types?
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Cat4D the recent decade's use of xml squashed most of the more diverse methods
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Cat4D ?
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tantek citations are a difficult problem space to be sure. there have been many attempts at improving the situation but there are also a plethora of existing conventions, e.g. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation#Citation_styles
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tantek there's no lack of background reading there for previous/current efforts
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sheltonrodriguez created /heard_that_and_Total_self_esteem_booster_for_me (+4485) "New page: [[Image:CD_and_DVDCD_and_DVD_2399.jpg|thumb|]] ANTICIPO] Caso ex Ciccone: denunció a Esteban Righi y a Adelmo Gabbi ante la justicia hola quiero hacer una preguntota, quiero ver q tan bu..." (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:SheltonRodriguez]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek deleted /heard_that_and_Total_self_esteem_booster_for_me "content was spam"
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tantek edited /hcalendar-examples-in-wild (+124) "wiki.creativecommons.org/Events has hCalendar now" (view diff)
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/nicolesmithweb] Brushing up on hCard microformats #WebDeveloper
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mkowens http://www.silkapp.com/
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tantek mkowens, context?
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mkowens None really. Just an interesting app that seems potentially relevant to people in here.
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tantek does it post microformats?
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mkowens It says that it uses "semantic web data" (not sure what forms, as I haven't had time to fully digest it) to allow users to browse data from websites easier.
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tantek do their docs mention any microformats anywhere?
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tantek like what they support etc.
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tantek do you know them?
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mkowens Again: I haven't had time to fully digest it. I just thought the premise and visualization was interesting and that people in here might be interested to see it, too.
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tantek looked at http://www.silkapp.com/techspecs - appears a bit thin / light / marketingy.
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tantek (not a good sign for something titled "Tech specs")
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mkowens Agreed. Looking at it some of their FAQs and such, it seems to make reference to things that are covered by microformats, which was one of the reasons I posted it here.
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tantek try contacting them (if they have a way) and asking them specifically for microformats support
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mkowens Yeah
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mkowens I was going to potentially contact them after trying out the tool later.
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tantek ok, so far I'm seeing demo *.silkapp.com sites based on content clumsily copied from Wikipedia, e.g. http://world.silkapp.com/ and http://simpsons.silkapp.com/
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tantek and subpages like http://world.silkapp.com/page/Barack%20Obama
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tantek which was clumsily copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
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tantek the silkapp page has no microformats
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tantek whereas the wikipedia source has an hCard for Obama
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tantek so so far, Silkapp is a net-negative.
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tantek from that data point, they don't seem to understand/appreciate "semantic web data".
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tantek mkowens, feel free to ask them / investigate further, but on first glance, I'm ready to dismiss them as being uninteresting.
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tantek (there are many apps/sites that rip-off wikipedia content in order to market/sell something but typically end up providing a *worse* version of the content)
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aaronpk i.e. facebook
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tantek ding
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aaronpk https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tantek-%C3%87elik/107839409237276
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tantek oh boy
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aaronpk :(
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tantek nevermind that my wp page is horribly out of date :/
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mkowens I don't disagree that the intent and usage might be bad. I just was intending to show that there seems to be an interest in some form of "semantic web data viewer" not imply that Silk was a good thing. Just something that might be interesting.
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tantek maybe I'm just jaded by seeing too many marketingy claims of "semantic web data" that turn out to be crap.
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tantek and copying/republishing wikipedia tends to be a spammer pattern - hence another source of suspicioun
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tantek mkowens - my bar for "might be interesting" with respect to microformats is at least a service/app that claims *something* about microformats in particular, either by name in general "supports microformats" or support for specific microformats like mentioning hCard, hCalendar.
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tantek here's an example of an "interesting" service/app using that criteria: http://grabaperch.com/features/microformats
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mkowens Don't worry. Won't make the mistake of posting things in here that aren't explicitly microformats related again.
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tantek mkowens - hah!
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tantek that wasn't my point, I was just trying to provide some additional background
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tantek so many nonsensical content posting sites/apps seem to ship/launch every day
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tantek I'm not sure how you filter them all
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tantek wow they even got a fluff PR piece in gigaom: http://gigaom.com/europe/meet-silk-the-semantic-web-for-the-rest-of-us
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tantek "It works like this: you build a series of pages inside Silk and link them together with tags." - another silo
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tantek and ooh tags! how 2005 of them ;)
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tantek at least Bobbie noticed this: "Then there’s the fact that each set of Silk documents reside inside a silo, unconnected with any others."
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tantek nothing web-like there
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tantek just another company hyping "semantic web" without anything that resembles anything "semantic" or "web"-like in the actual product
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tantek oh and huge filter warning:
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tantek any time you see any phrase like:
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tantek "… bring the Semantic Web dream just a step closer to becoming a reality."
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tantek run.
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tantek that's a good signifier for - app/company has no idea what they're doing.
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tantek mkowens, ok I went ahead and dug just *a little* further (due to the gigaom coverage)
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tantek created http://microformats.silkapp.com/
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tantek silkapp is just yet another wysiwyg wiki
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tantek nothing special
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tantek nothing semantic
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tantek unless I'm missing something.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/JamesGurd] @graemed yes - it's saying missing hcard for author but I'm using a Wordpress plug-in which I know others have used.
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Cat4D where is a list of binary representations of primitive types?
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tantek Cat4D - microformats deal with text publishing on the web, not any binary representations.
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tantek *hypertext publishing at that
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Cat4D then, do tell, how do you publish it?
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/get-started
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Cat4D why do your wiki entries have no usable data management structure?
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Cat4D it is somewhat self defeating to put content in unstructured wikis when your point is to devise structured content
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tantek Cat4D - the wiki does use some microformats but could likely use some more.
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tantek And yes, improving usability is a constant focus/task. No claim to perfection there. :)
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Cat4D but
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Cat4D microformat the wiki entries with a form
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tantek rigid forms tend to be more of an obstacle than a help
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tantek especially for usability
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tantek it's easier to iterate and improve usability when not restricted by a predefined form/schema
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tantek Cat4D - do you have your own website?
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tantek perhaps start with marking up your contact info with hCard: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
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Cat4D far too many, and fighting with webgl at this moment
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tantek good luck in your fight
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tantek plenty of folks here to help once you get started with adding microformats to your site(s).
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tantek ttyl
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edwardbc tantek
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edwardbc <tantek> yeah, just say no to meta tags. use visible data instead with #microformats ;) <--- could you give an example or ellaborate?
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tantek edwardbc - sure, like your contact info, use hCard: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:QueenHuffman3]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek deleted /IfItWasUpToMe_id_have_a_Loan_husband_Wait_that_is_up_to_me "content was spam"
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edwardbc oh i see
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edwardbc thanks :)
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tantek no problem!
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tantek do you have your own website edwardbc?
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edwardbc a few, mostly develop for others
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edwardbc why?
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tantek edwardbc - just curious if you've tried adding microformats and what your experience has been
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edwardbc I actually kind of ashamed that I haven't
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tantek it's ok, we're here to help! and hopefully it should be really easy. :)
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edwardbc awesome thanks :)
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tantek edited /citation-formats (+183) "/* styles */ more yalecollege citation details / advice" (view diff)
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tantek edited /citation-formats (+1) "/* styles */ t" (view diff)