#microformats 2012-08-30

2012-08-30 UTC
tantek, tantek-ipod, lgedeon and gp5st joined the channel
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gp5st i'm looking at the schema.org and microformats.org geo definitions, there is not (optional) field for planet or body. what would be the proper way to go about proposing that?
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aaronpk :) I was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask that
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gp5st oh? :)
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gp5st i run a site about mars and thought that microformats would be useful. i hate the idea of just augmenting the standard on my own site. the other option is just for people to assume that any coordinates are about mars, but in theory they could be for other bodies (planet, moon, asteroid)
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aaronpk here's something: http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-extension-nonWGS84
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aaronpk and http://microformats.org/wiki/mars
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gp5st i'm looking at the mars one (sorry i'm going through this slowly:-\_ and i don't like the idea of rooting it differently for every body
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gp5st i hadn't got to the extentions before you showed me. that looks pretty much like what i was envisioning
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gp5st awesome:) sorry for asking before reading everything
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aaronpk it's ok! I wouldn't have thought to go look until you mentioned it
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gp5st i love the idea of embedding all of this data, i'm just sad it'll take a while to fully implement on my side:)
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gp5st i have to go. my wife and I are setting a no electronics after 10pm rule
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gp5st take care! and thank you!
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aaronpk good rule!
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columbuswoodall created /index.php?title=Mediawiki (+3287) "New page: Look at the Email : You will be informed by the bureaus with their analysis outcomes through mail. They're going to notify you should the product ended up being validated or removed. Cont..." (view diff)
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chiefra edited /index.php?title=Mediawiki () "(-3287) removed spammy content" (view diff)
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ChiefRA ;)
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tantek deleted /index.php?title=Mediawiki "content was spam"
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ChiefRA [05:10] <gp5st> i have to go. my wife and I are setting a no electronics after 10pm rule
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ChiefRA :)))))))))))))))))))))))))
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ChiefRA this is something
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tantek heh
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ChiefRA so after 10pm they watch the stars and the moon out of the window perhaps as the TV is an electronic device.
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ChiefRA or even better, the love eachother deeply :))))
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ChiefRA tantek did you see any real life implementations on microformats 2 yet?
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ChiefRA do you heard/know if Google started to support this?
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tantek ChiefRA - folks from Google have been asking about it. Which is usually a good sign.
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tantek I think there are further simplifications we can make too.
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ChiefRA tantek I believe so, but I was wondering if Google accept and recognize them yet.
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@shendison OOPS! Someone just spotted white text on a white bg on my site for hcard review code and phoned me.#bad #SEO #fail #fixednow
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tantek Thanks ChiefRA
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tantek also: re: Google and uf2, not yet as far as I know. we don't usually find out until after they start supporting something.
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tantek btw have you tried using microformats2 yourself with any of your markup to see how easy or hard it is to add to your existing markup?
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tantek barnabywalters - I was looking at your home page to see how you marked up your stream, and checking out the hAtom, when I noticed this: </p><p>16:22:05</time></p>
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tantek it appears you may have some unbalanced / overlapping open/close p tags!
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tantek and also, for the hAtom, you'll need to put the published updated class names on the actual time element, not on the surrounding div
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tantek once you've gotten all that taken care of, I have some questions for you about your experience with microformats, and in particular with h-entry (if you've taken a look at it)
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barnabywalters tantek: weird coincidence, I am currently going through all my new markup and applying mf2 to it in a more intelligent way
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barnabywalters thanks for the tip off
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tantek good then this is a good time to ask about uf2 h-entry
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barnabywalters absolutely
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tantek my experience with it so far is that it seems like some of the class names are either redundant with existing microformats2 class names or unnecessary
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tantek note that I mapped h-entry directly from hAtom hentry as a first attempt
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barnabywalters give me a sec, I'll push my latest changes to my test server
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barnabywalters tantek: which h-entry class names have you found to be redundant?
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tantek edited /microformats2 (+575) "/* h-entry */ capturing some issues and opportunities for simplification, fewer overall class names" (view diff)
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tantek there, finally hit save on a page I was editing last night and fell asleep before saving apparently
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tantek see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#h-entry
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tantek the "entry-" distinction has made no difference in practice.
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tantek e.g. summary vs. entry-summary
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tantek content vs. entry-content
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tantek and now that we have the standard default class name of p-name in microformats2
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tantek that can subsume p-entry-title as well
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barnabywalters plus for notes where the content *is* the title, the result is rather ridiculous: entry-content entry-title p-entry-title p-entry-content p-entry-summary
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tantek initially we mapped the Atom spec's exact semantics for entry title, summary, content to hAtom
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tantek well, almost - you can omit the *-summary in that case :)
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tantek so with hAtom for notes you have: entry-title entry-content
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tantek for h-entry, I'm trying to simplify this to: p-name e-content
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tantek no more entry-* specific properties
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tantek I don't see much if any of a practical / relevant difference between a "summary" in hCal/iCal and an entry "summary" in hAtom/Atom
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barnabywalters tantek: 'summary' is one of the few bits of data which is consistent across all my content types
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tantek iCal: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2445#section-4.8.1.12 SUMMARY: This property defines a short summary or subject for the calendar component.
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barnabywalters I cannot find explanations of the mf2 prefixes
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barnabywalters what does e- signify?
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barnabywalters yuk. iCal format is horrible
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tantek e- = embedded markup
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barnabywalters ah, okay
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barnabywalters is there anywhere the various prefixes are explained? I was confused by them initially
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing
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tantek I need to move that up to a higher section - you're the second person to give that feedback
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tantek in continuing previous thread on summary:
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tantek Atom: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287#section-4.2.13 The "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry.
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tantek I claim that for all practical purposes that's the same semantic (between iCal and Atom)
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barnabywalters well I can't think of any use cases off the top of my head where a summary *isn't* supposed to do that
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tantek and I don't see anyone evolving Atom at this point to diverge from that
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tantek also note:
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tantek "It is not advisable for the atom:summary element to duplicate
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tantek atom:title or atom:content because Atom Processors might assume there
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tantek is a useful summary when there is none."
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tantek (from that same URL)
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tantek so I don't think "entry-*" adds any relevant semantic
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barnabywalters agreed
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tantek I think this is what we've learned in our years of experience with hAtom
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tantek so switching from "entry-content" to "content" (in practice e-content or p-content) is an obvious thing to do to
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tantek that just leaves entry-title
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barnabywalters so the question is: is the p-name semantic the same for h-card and h-entry?
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tantek well, p-name is the more broad "name of the thing" as you see it / publish it
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tantek so in vCard, that equates to fn
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tantek (and hence hCard)
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tantek so in h-card, p-name replaces p-fn
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barnabywalters fn always confused me. I could never remember whether or not it was full name or forename
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tantek (so many people are confused by "fn", and so many people also independently invent a "name" property instead)
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tantek so we already decided that's getting fixed in uf2
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tantek back to entry-title
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tantek in Atom: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287#section-4.2.14 : The "atom:title" element is a Text construct that conveys a human-readable title for an entry or feed.
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tantek tautological much?
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barnabywalters heh
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tantek title conveys a human-readable title
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tantek great, that means next to nothing
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barnabywalters yep — could be almost anything
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tantek so I think it is reasonable to say instead that authors typically publish the *name* of an entry, and it's often *displayed* as a title
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tantek in practice "title" is rarely a semantic (except in vCard/hCard where it really means job-title)
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barnabywalters this is particularly relevant from an activitystreams POV, e.g. object title vs something like "Barnaby posted a note"
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tantek "title" usually just for display
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tantek so I dislike the term for that reason - in practice it doesn't convey a semantic, it conveys a presentation
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tantek I think Dublin Core got that wrong too
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tantek blame the librarians
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tantek think about: title of a book vs. name of a book
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barnabywalters I had forgotten about dublin core
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tantek title of a movie vs. name of a movie
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tantek heh
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tantek title of a song, vs. name of a song
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tantek title of an album, vs. name of an album
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tantek which do you use in common speech?
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barnabywalters I would use name, and my brother agrees
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barnabywalters title also used for aristocratic crap re people
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barnabywalters which introduces extra ambiguity
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tantek google also agrees
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tantek google searches that is
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tantek for each of those phrases quoted
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tantek the "name of " version wins by 2-10x
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tantek in EVERY case
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tantek book, movie, song, album
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barnabywalters iTunes agrees — name column, not title column
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tantek yes another data point - UI
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barnabywalters applies for books too, interestingly
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tantek also, "name of an article" wins over "title of an article"
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tantek in gsearch
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barnabywalters books is one case where I would associate *title* more than *name*
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barnabywalters yep, I think "name of article" not "title"
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tantek however, "name of a book" is 44m vs. "title of a book" 7.5m in gsearch result counts
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barnabywalters for me it varies with context.
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tantek even if we give title the benefit of the doubt and allow for "book title" - that's only 16.4m results
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tantek "name of a book" crushes "title of a book" and "book title" COMBINED.
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barnabywalters although I would use name to refer to the name and title to refer to the actual printed title
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tantek "actual printed title" = presentational!
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tantek that's the point I was making
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barnabywalters so the conclusion is, name wins
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tantek title = presentational, not semantic!
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tantek Dublin Core was/is wrong.
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tantek English has evolved to shift to using "name" rather than "title"
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tantek as per the evidence of Google searches of web publishing
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tantek it's time to deprecate "title" as any kind of a generic semantic, and maybe relegate it only to things like "job-title"
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tantek so for uf2
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tantek since we have p-name
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tantek for h-entry
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tantek we no longer need p-entry-title
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tantek and h-entry to Atom processors can simply convert the "p-name" to an <entry:title> for legacy backcompat purposes.
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tantek that's the case I'm making
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tantek a) does it make sense?
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tantek b) any objections?
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barnabywalters from me: a) yes and b) no
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tantek anybody else?
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tantek I think benward had some doubts when I first posed it as a possibility quite a while ago - I wonder if he's changed his mind.
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tantek Phae? aaronpk (since you've been working with hAtom a bunch) ? hober (since you <3 bikeshedding :) ) mkowens (always insightful) ?
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tantek or anyone else in the channel who has an opinion, especially if you're familiar with (and even use/publish) hAtom
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tantek bbiab
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tantek (please contribute and continue discussion)
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tantek edited /microformats2 (+354) "/* combining microformats */ answer some questions, stick with one canonical hierarchical JSON representation of uf2" (view diff)
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hober tantek: a) yes, b) not from me.
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hober just paint the shed goldenrod
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