#microformats 2012-08-30

2012-08-30 UTC
tantek, tantek-ipod, lgedeon and gp5st joined the channel
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gp5st
i'm looking at the schema.org and microformats.org geo definitions, there is not (optional) field for planet or body. what would be the proper way to go about proposing that?
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aaronpk
:) I was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask that
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gp5st
oh? :)
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gp5st
i run a site about mars and thought that microformats would be useful. i hate the idea of just augmenting the standard on my own site. the other option is just for people to assume that any coordinates are about mars, but in theory they could be for other bodies (planet, moon, asteroid)
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gp5st
i'm looking at the mars one (sorry i'm going through this slowly:-\_ and i don't like the idea of rooting it differently for every body
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gp5st
i hadn't got to the extentions before you showed me. that looks pretty much like what i was envisioning
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gp5st
awesome:) sorry for asking before reading everything
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aaronpk
it's ok! I wouldn't have thought to go look until you mentioned it
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gp5st
i love the idea of embedding all of this data, i'm just sad it'll take a while to fully implement on my side:)
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gp5st
i have to go. my wife and I are setting a no electronics after 10pm rule
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gp5st
take care! and thank you!
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aaronpk
good rule!
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columbuswoodall
created /index.php?title=Mediawiki (+3287) "New page: Look at the Email : You will be informed by the bureaus with their analysis outcomes through mail. They're going to notify you should the product ended up being validated or removed. Cont..."
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nuynism
created /User:Nuynism (+499) "https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=209575334180599290101.0004c7da6d505e13a0372&msa=0"
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chiefra
edited /index.php?title=Mediawiki () "(-3287) removed spammy content"
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chiefra
edited /User:Nuynism (-499) "removed spammy content"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Nuynism]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:ColumbusWoodall]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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ChiefRA
;)
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tantek
deleted /User:Nuynism "content was spam"
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tantek
deleted /index.php?title=Mediawiki "content was spam"
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ChiefRA
[05:10] <gp5st> i have to go. my wife and I are setting a no electronics after 10pm rule
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ChiefRA
:)))))))))))))))))))))))))
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ChiefRA
this is something
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ChiefRA
so after 10pm they watch the stars and the moon out of the window perhaps as the TV is an electronic device.
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ChiefRA
or even better, the love eachother deeply :))))
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ChiefRA
tantek did you see any real life implementations on microformats 2 yet?
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ChiefRA
do you heard/know if Google started to support this?
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tantek
ChiefRA - folks from Google have been asking about it. Which is usually a good sign.
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tantek
I think there are further simplifications we can make too.
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ChiefRA
tantek I believe so, but I was wondering if Google accept and recognize them yet.
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@onsecrethunt
Author hReview WordPress Plugin – Rate Your Reviews http://t.co/J9niULoI
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@VarinderOSH
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chiefra
edited /BeanlbsmchwmoRajaphoumy () "(-3229) removed spammy content"
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@shendison
OOPS! Someone just spotted white text on a white bg on my site for hcard review code and phoned me.#bad #SEO #fail #fixednow
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:BeanlbsmchwmoRajaphoumy]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
deleted /BeanlbsmchwmoRajaphoumy "content was spam"
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tantek
Thanks ChiefRA
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tantek
also: re: Google and uf2, not yet as far as I know. we don't usually find out until after they start supporting something.
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tantek
btw have you tried using microformats2 yourself with any of your markup to see how easy or hard it is to add to your existing markup?
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tantek
barnabywalters - I was looking at your home page to see how you marked up your stream, and checking out the hAtom, when I noticed this: </p><p>16:22:05</time></p>
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tantek
it appears you may have some unbalanced / overlapping open/close p tags!
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tantek
and also, for the hAtom, you'll need to put the published updated class names on the actual time element, not on the surrounding div
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tantek
once you've gotten all that taken care of, I have some questions for you about your experience with microformats, and in particular with h-entry (if you've taken a look at it)
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barnabywalters
tantek: weird coincidence, I am currently going through all my new markup and applying mf2 to it in a more intelligent way
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barnabywalters
thanks for the tip off
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tantek
good then this is a good time to ask about uf2 h-entry
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tantek
my experience with it so far is that it seems like some of the class names are either redundant with existing microformats2 class names or unnecessary
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tantek
note that I mapped h-entry directly from hAtom hentry as a first attempt
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barnabywalters
give me a sec, I'll push my latest changes to my test server
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barnabywalters
tantek: which h-entry class names have you found to be redundant?
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tantek
edited /microformats2 (+575) "/* h-entry */ capturing some issues and opportunities for simplification, fewer overall class names"
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tantek
there, finally hit save on a page I was editing last night and fell asleep before saving apparently
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tantek
the "entry-" distinction has made no difference in practice.
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tantek
e.g. summary vs. entry-summary
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tantek
content vs. entry-content
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tantek
and now that we have the standard default class name of p-name in microformats2
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tantek
that can subsume p-entry-title as well
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barnabywalters
plus for notes where the content *is* the title, the result is rather ridiculous: entry-content entry-title p-entry-title p-entry-content p-entry-summary
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tantek
initially we mapped the Atom spec's exact semantics for entry title, summary, content to hAtom
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tantek
well, almost - you can omit the *-summary in that case :)
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tantek
so with hAtom for notes you have: entry-title entry-content
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tantek
for h-entry, I'm trying to simplify this to: p-name e-content
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tantek
no more entry-* specific properties
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tantek
I don't see much if any of a practical / relevant difference between a "summary" in hCal/iCal and an entry "summary" in hAtom/Atom
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barnabywalters
tantek: 'summary' is one of the few bits of data which is consistent across all my content types
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tantek
iCal: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2445#section-4.8.1.12 SUMMARY: This property defines a short summary or subject for the calendar component.
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barnabywalters
I cannot find explanations of the mf2 prefixes
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barnabywalters
what does e- signify?
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barnabywalters
yuk. iCal format is horrible
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tantek
e- = embedded markup
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barnabywalters
is there anywhere the various prefixes are explained? I was confused by them initially
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tantek
I need to move that up to a higher section - you're the second person to give that feedback
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tantek
in continuing previous thread on summary:
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tantek
Atom: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287#section-4.2.13 The "atom:summary" element is a Text construct that conveys a short summary, abstract, or excerpt of an entry.
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tantek
I claim that for all practical purposes that's the same semantic (between iCal and Atom)
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barnabywalters
well I can't think of any use cases off the top of my head where a summary *isn't* supposed to do that
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tantek
and I don't see anyone evolving Atom at this point to diverge from that
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tantek
also note:
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tantek
"It is not advisable for the atom:summary element to duplicate
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tantek
atom:title or atom:content because Atom Processors might assume there
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tantek
is a useful summary when there is none."
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tantek
(from that same URL)
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tantek
so I don't think "entry-*" adds any relevant semantic
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tantek
I think this is what we've learned in our years of experience with hAtom
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tantek
so switching from "entry-content" to "content" (in practice e-content or p-content) is an obvious thing to do to
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tantek
that just leaves entry-title
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barnabywalters
so the question is: is the p-name semantic the same for h-card and h-entry?
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tantek
well, p-name is the more broad "name of the thing" as you see it / publish it
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tantek
so in vCard, that equates to fn
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tantek
(and hence hCard)
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tantek
so in h-card, p-name replaces p-fn
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barnabywalters
fn always confused me. I could never remember whether or not it was full name or forename
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tantek
(so many people are confused by "fn", and so many people also independently invent a "name" property instead)
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tantek
so we already decided that's getting fixed in uf2
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tantek
back to entry-title
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tantek
in Atom: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287#section-4.2.14 : The "atom:title" element is a Text construct that conveys a human-readable title for an entry or feed.
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tantek
tautological much?
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tantek
title conveys a human-readable title
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tantek
great, that means next to nothing
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barnabywalters
yep — could be almost anything
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tantek
so I think it is reasonable to say instead that authors typically publish the *name* of an entry, and it's often *displayed* as a title
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tantek
in practice "title" is rarely a semantic (except in vCard/hCard where it really means job-title)
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barnabywalters
this is particularly relevant from an activitystreams POV, e.g. object title vs something like "Barnaby posted a note"
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tantek
"title" usually just for display
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tantek
so I dislike the term for that reason - in practice it doesn't convey a semantic, it conveys a presentation
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tantek
I think Dublin Core got that wrong too
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tantek
blame the librarians
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tantek
think about: title of a book vs. name of a book
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barnabywalters
I had forgotten about dublin core
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tantek
title of a movie vs. name of a movie
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tantek
title of a song, vs. name of a song
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tantek
title of an album, vs. name of an album
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tantek
which do you use in common speech?
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barnabywalters
I would use name, and my brother agrees
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barnabywalters
title also used for aristocratic crap re people
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barnabywalters
which introduces extra ambiguity
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tantek
google also agrees
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tantek
google searches that is
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tantek
for each of those phrases quoted
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tantek
the "name of " version wins by 2-10x
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tantek
in EVERY case
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tantek
book, movie, song, album
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barnabywalters
iTunes agrees — name column, not title column
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tantek
yes another data point - UI
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barnabywalters
applies for books too, interestingly
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tantek
also, "name of an article" wins over "title of an article"
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tantek
in gsearch
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barnabywalters
books is one case where I would associate *title* more than *name*
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barnabywalters
yep, I think "name of article" not "title"
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tantek
however, "name of a book" is 44m vs. "title of a book" 7.5m in gsearch result counts
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barnabywalters
for me it varies with context.
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tantek
even if we give title the benefit of the doubt and allow for "book title" - that's only 16.4m results
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tantek
"name of a book" crushes "title of a book" and "book title" COMBINED.
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barnabywalters
although I would use name to refer to the name and title to refer to the actual printed title
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tantek
"actual printed title" = presentational!
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tantek
that's the point I was making
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barnabywalters
so the conclusion is, name wins
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tantek
title = presentational, not semantic!
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tantek
Dublin Core was/is wrong.
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tantek
English has evolved to shift to using "name" rather than "title"
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tantek
as per the evidence of Google searches of web publishing
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tantek
it's time to deprecate "title" as any kind of a generic semantic, and maybe relegate it only to things like "job-title"
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tantek
so for uf2
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tantek
since we have p-name
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tantek
for h-entry
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tantek
we no longer need p-entry-title
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tantek
and h-entry to Atom processors can simply convert the "p-name" to an <entry:title> for legacy backcompat purposes.
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tantek
that's the case I'm making
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tantek
a) does it make sense?
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tantek
b) any objections?
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barnabywalters
from me: a) yes and b) no
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tantek
anybody else?
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tantek
I think benward had some doubts when I first posed it as a possibility quite a while ago - I wonder if he's changed his mind.
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tantek
Phae? aaronpk (since you've been working with hAtom a bunch) ? hober (since you <3 bikeshedding :) ) mkowens (always insightful) ?
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tantek
or anyone else in the channel who has an opinion, especially if you're familiar with (and even use/publish) hAtom
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tantek
bbiab
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tantek
(please contribute and continue discussion)
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tantek
edited /microformats2 (+354) "/* combining microformats */ answer some questions, stick with one canonical hierarchical JSON representation of uf2"
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hober
tantek: a) yes, b) not from me.
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hober
just paint the shed goldenrod
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tantek
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