#microformats 2013-01-10

2013-01-10 UTC
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adikdasa created /User:adikdasa (+2786) "A good thing to remember when buying running shoes is that" (view diff)
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adikdasa edited /User:adikdasa (+2974) "/* and glittering. To Nick */ new section" (view diff)
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adikdasa edited /User:adikdasa (+2896) "/* Tara Stiles */ new section" (view diff)
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@ddossot It's simple: just parse the vaguely compliant HCard elements scattered on the profile page. Or use @IDlight. #public #profile
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@filedir H'calendar ～In 2013 - Wallpaper Yearly Calendar～ for #iOS 1.2 http://filedir.com/ios/lifestyle/hcalendar-in-2013-wallpaper-yearly-calendar-for-ios-4649461.html
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jacqueline created /User:Jacqueline (+382) "New page: I would like to introduce myself to you, I am Darron but I do not like when folks use my whole identify.<br><br>What I appreciate performing is astronomy but I have been getting on new det..." (view diff)
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@InZineArticles The hCard Offers Local Savings with Rally Point Sport Grill http://inzinearticles.com/the-hcard-offers-local-savings-with-rally-point-sport-grill/
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iSRAELi :D
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iSRAELi great news
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iSRAELi a friend of mine began working in the company that i work in
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@InZineArticles Your NEW Year can mean savings with The hCard! http://inzinearticles.com/your-new-year-can-mean-savings-with-the-hcard/
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gualterr2 created /User:gualterr2 (+2361) "frank gore impact jersey PlOM each other to fight at the cus" (view diff)
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gjones @tantek todays version of http://microformat2-node.jit.su/ should now parse http://tantek.com/ correctly - finger crossed : )
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tantek gjones great!
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gjones There is some interesting result for the h-entry where its picking up the value-pattern for u-url and u-uid, but I think that's, right u-x properties look for value-pattern first
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gjones Also the h-entries are in the children array of h-feed because it could not find p-entry class in the same classList as h-entry
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tantek I think I see a false positive for "hfeed" being backward compat parsed as "h-feed". E.g. on this post: http://tantek.com/2013/006/t1/learn-lindy-hop-hepjen-920special
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tantek There is no "hfeed" in the backward compat vocabs: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#v2_vocabularies because we don't know of any (significant?) consumers of "hfeed" in particular (lots of "hentry", but not "hfeed" itself)
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tantek you're not turning all "h***" into "h-***" are you? that would be bad as we don't want it to be arbitrary, just a short list of what's been well adopted.
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tantek @gjones - this is the test URL: http://microformat2-node.jit.su/api?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2013%2F006%2Ft1%2Flearn-lindy-hop-hepjen-920special&callback=&formats=
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tantek I'm seeing "type":["h-feed"] right at the start there, and there is no "h-feed" on that page.
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gjones I built mappings for all of the current V1 just to look at how the conversion logic held up.
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tantek where do you get your list of "all of the current V1"?
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gjones I can switch off V1 stuff we don't want to convert by changing the mapping files
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tantek better to stick with the "current V1" list listed here: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#v2_vocabularies
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tantek otherwise we're likely to get too much noise / false positives
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gjones Looks like the page your testing has <ol class="hfeed"> at line 31
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tantek yes - however, "hfeed" != "h-feed"
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tantek that being said, I'd be interested in seeing what mappings you came up with for hReview, hReview-aggregate, hProduct, hListing, hRecipe, hNews
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tantek or what other mappings you came up with
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gjones https://github.com/glennjones/microformat-node/tree/dev/lib/maps - there are bit missing where it was not clear what to do
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tantek whoa github is slow today
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tantek spinny octocat spinny
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tantek yeah their ajax is wonky today, I have to do full page loads to get the specific files to show up (or back to the listing)
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tantek gjones, your maps look pretty good at first glance, e.g. for hReview etc.
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tantek I'll dive deeper in a bit
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gjones Yeh I think they are uploading a new interface
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tantek for now we should drop h-feed.js, h-media.js, h-org.js
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tantek also, this is the first I've heard of h-competency - is that something you used to extend hResume?
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gjones Its experimental, h-competency is what Madgex and Linkedin have used to extend hResume. Linkedin don't use it any more
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tantek would be great to leave it out of the core parser for now then - especially if LinkedIn is not publishing it anymore
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gjones Should be able to that by allowing for developers to add new schema mapping as an option
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tantek gjones - I'm not sure - as such mappings are only needed for pre-uf2 formats
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tantek and developers shouldn't be making any new ones
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tantek anything new that developers come up with they should just use microformats2 syntax
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tantek and no need to change the parser
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tantek in fact, developers adding new .js schema maps like that should be explicitly discouraged
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tantek so that they use microformats2 syntax which will work across all microformats2 parsers, not just one that they happen to customize with code.
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JonathanNeal Do you guys have any opinions on this, or is it totally unrelated? https://github.com/diveintomark/diveintohtml5/issues/17 "Change microdata chapter so it points to schema.org instead of data-vocabulary.org?"
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gjones I have often created supersets when I have needed to extended a schema. I can see what your saying I should be able to now use the h-x in V2
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tantek gjones - exactly - just use the V2 class name prefixes and you're all set. no parser changes needed.
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tantek in fact, if something DOES require a parser change, then at this point something is wrong and we should fix it.
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tantek JonathanNeal - schema.org is a confusing mess. at least with data-vocabulary.org Google stuck with a few small vocabularies that it actually supports. whereas with #schema, it's a massive pile of crap with a few useful things buried in it.
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JonathanNeal So we're sad either way..
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tantek I'd say the spirit of Mark's book is a quick and useful overview, instead of pointing off into massive piles of crap (in fact, he makes fun of such massive piles of crap)
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tantek JonathanNeal - we're sad because Google just keeps reinventing how they want to do their custom version of semantics every 2-3 years.
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tantek from GoogleBase, to GoogleData / gData, to data-vocabulary.org, to now schema.org
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tantek this has been going on since 2005
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tantek one of the reasons we've kept microformats going is that as an open community, things are actually a lot more stable and reliable around here.
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tantek so if anything, I'd say the best "future-proofing" for the microdata chapter is to add parallel microformats markup examples to each microdata example
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tantek which is a bit more work than changing a few URLs, however it's something that folks here can help with
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JonathanNeal Well, I'm up for the challenge, but I'm somewhat of a micro formats newbie. So I can branch it, make those additions, then have someone here review them for sanity.
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tantek e.g. hReview, as introduced in 2005, still works *today*, as is
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tantek in contrast to GoogleBase, introduced in 2005, long abandoned (but got A LOT more press / popular shouting / blog posts at the time because, hey, it's GOOGLE, they can't possibly be wrong, right?)
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tantek ;)
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tantek JonathanNeal - happy to help
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JonathanNeal Thanks. How involved would you like to be? I'm still unsure how to respond to the ticket, but that's because of a lack of knowledge on my part.
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tantek I think I've helped out with that chapter before.
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tantek About the ticket, at first glance it seems like the issue contains its own demise: "seems to be the shiny new common thing"
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tantek usually a bad reason to do anything
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tantek shiny new = fashion
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tantek in re-reading the chapter, I remember how simple/straightforward it was
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tantek like if you look at the sample PERSON VOCABULARY, it's short, simple, based mostly on hCard with a little XFN thrown in there
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tantek the table here that is http://diveintohtml5.info/extensibility.html#person (scroll down about a page - needs an id for the table)
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tantek now if that were the schema.org/Person instead - what a mess: http://schema.org/Person
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JonathanNeal I'm convinced!
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tantek so that's the key I think, to doing a good job in maintaining this text - keep it simple, straightforward, purely useful - as that seems like Mark's intent, and to the reader's benefit.
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tantek #schema unfortunately is none of those :/
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tantek I'm happy to help with editing to see if there's a way to add parallel microformats markup examples to each microdata example while still keeping it short and useful.
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JonathanNeal If you wrote the microformat parallels so much as in a simple text document or gist, I could do all the formatting and placement.
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JonathanNeal Otherwise, I will try to write them myself in the next few days, when time permits.
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tantek JonathanNeal - next few days is totally fine, I have a few things on my plate currently. Happy to help with etherpad co-editing etc.
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JonathanNeal Yay
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trevaxobhpyludzchatham created /Personalised_Present_to_Surprise_Your_husband_or_wife6282757 (+3172) "New page: Once your spouse's birthday is within the cards determined have to pull-up your socks and initiate taking care of an excellent gift for him/her. Homemade cards sound too classy and monoton..." (view diff)
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gustavoylirqnlznucolian created /Personalised_Present_to_Surprise_Your_partner84291 (+3182) "New page: Bankruptcy lawyer las vegas spouse's birthday is for the cards you definitely should bring up your socks and start searching for a pleasant gift for him/her. Homemade cards sound too simpl..." (view diff)
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tantek deleted /Personalised_Present_to_Surprise_Your_husband_or_wife6282757 "content was spam"
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@bluematrix #Microformate - ein weitere Welt ohne für einheitliche Richtlinien. #hcard #vcard #semantic
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Harzilein hmm
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Harzilein anyone active?
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Harzilein i'd like to point to my question from yesterday again
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barnabywalters Harzilein: hi, what was your question?
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Harzilein it was about an idea for marking up and interlinking the following facts:
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Harzilein - the costs of publishing the currently used "site"
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Harzilein - the fraction (say, of page hits) the currently used document constitutes of this
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Harzilein - marking up an ad as ofsetting those costs
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Harzilein so a user agent could choose to display/hide an ad based on the knowledge of its contribution to keeping the site up
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tantek Harzilein - could you provide a URL to the example content you want to markup?
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tantek we typically try to markup real world publishing examples
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Harzilein tantek: well, currently i have no problem paying for my hosting. it's more what i'd like to recommend to people who say they have to choose between an unattractive ad and paying the publishing infrastructure out of their own pockets
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Harzilein but as an example, let's pretend my instance of killbills gets more popular than that of the author and i want to add ads: http://killbills.harzilein.eu.org
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Harzilein my monthly server costs are 10 euros for a share of a dedicated server
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Harzilein and i would like to serve ads from project wonderful
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tantek it's tough to come up with good patterns for markup based on "let's pretend" examples, because in practice, the actual content + markup tends to differ A LOT from any theoretical / let's pretend examples.
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Harzilein now i could count page hits and after a month tell people how many page hits there are per month
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tantek I'd say the best thing to do is to try experimenting with real content and just POSH class names
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/poshformats
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tantek and then we could all take a look at how your experiments worked and see what to do next
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Harzilein yeah, but the problem starts with _costs_. i would not like to use, say, goodrelations, because i'm not selling a product of "hiding ads", but just informing visitors about the costs i have, my visitor count, and the fact that certain parts of the page are "ad payload" and not content
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Harzilein i currently don't have to set off my costs with ads, and i don't have real visitors either.
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tantek I'm still trying to understand how to use goodrelations - there's so much to it
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tantek I mean, it's obviously quite powerful, but it seems quite hard to do simple things with
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Harzilein so let's concentrate on the fuzziest thing, the first ones are basically about making a 90's style hit counter and a "donation goal" like they have on wikipedia computer readable
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Harzilein the hard think is marking up an ad as "payload for setting off the costs marked up in those other parts"
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tantek there was some work on donation links with rel-payment
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Harzilein tantek: oh, i'll look into that
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tantek ad markup in general has not been pursued much
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tantek but is likely worth of research & documentation
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tantek the use case you point out is interesting
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Harzilein tantek: it's a hippie thing of course to mark up your ads so user agents have an easier time hiding them %-)
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tantek a *positive* use case for ad markup (i.e. not just ad blocking/filtering)
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Harzilein well, what started this was basically that people who have already donated to wikipedia _still_ have to see those annoying css popups
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Harzilein for the rest of their campaign
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Harzilein does rel-payment have some kind of qualification if this is for profit or for setting off costs?
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tantek no such qualification
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tantek it was designed to be the simplest way of discovering such things
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tantek no distinction of
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tantek non-profit vs. not-for-profit vs. coffee-money vs. making-a-living
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Harzilein tantek: hmm
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Harzilein tantek: so i guess it would be enough to add rel-payment indicating a page where i whine in prose about my server costs and tell people which html markup they should add to each page if they want to have ads shown ;)
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Harzilein tantek: i guess i'll test drive that approach :D
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tantek it's a good start!
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@tannercook94 @AlannaOrsak your Miss November #100year4-Hcalendar #4-Hpride http://twitter.com/tannercook94/status/289518250096746496/photo/1
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