#microformats 2013-04-29

2013-04-29 UTC
danielfilho, tantek and colares joined the channel
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colares !tell barnabywalters Hi, man! How are u doing? I've talked to tantek this mooring, he suggest me to create top level effort page for sheet-music (http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music), like http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music. what do you think? Is there a different denomination for sheet of music with pentagrams etc. and for sheet of lyrics with chords?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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colares !tell barnabywalters I mean, like http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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colares edited /sheet-music-examples (+1631) "/* Examples */" (view diff)
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colares !tell barnabywalters I've updated sheet-music-examples (http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music-examples), i think both proposal has the same top level effort
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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colares tantek: do you think sheet music format (pentagrams, calves, notes etc. http://sordylhouseofmusic.com/images/sheet-music.jpg) should be developed under the same top level effort (sheet-music) as lyrics with chords (http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/rock-and-pop-songs-with-chords/png/Words_Of_Love-Buddy_Holly.png or http://www.finalemusic.com/usermanuals/finale2012win/content/image846.gif)?
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nndl293hcx created /User:nndl293hcx (+2566) "65 $49@@= s" (view diff)
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nndl293hcx edited /User:nndl293hcx (+2379) "/* 1760 Mission Drive */ new section" (view diff)
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nndl293hcx edited /User:nndl293hcx (+3101) "/* most of the time */ new section" (view diff)
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colares created /sheet-music (+480) "New page: <entry-title>Sheet Music</entry-title> This is a page for tracking the effort to develop a sheet-music microformat for musicians to indicate information about sheet music (e.g. sheet with..." (view diff)
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colares !tell barnabywalters also added this page: http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@sirio I added a video to a @YouTube playlist http://www.youtube.com/ microformats2 &amp
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Loqi HTML5: The Next Evolutionary Step For Web Data
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nmdf821fux created /User:nmdf821fux (+2467) "April 26" (view diff)
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@KadirNelson SPECIAL PUBLIC EVENT @ California African American Museum - 11:00 AM on 05/18/2013 #helioscal http://www.caamuseum.org/hcalendar/events/index.php?com=detail&eID=3443
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@MODELNY RT @KadirNelson: SPECIAL PUBLIC EVENT @ California African American Museum - 11:00 AM on 05/18/2013 #helioscal http://www.caamuseum.org/hcalendar/events/index.php?com=detail&eID=3443
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maybellejones created /Maninho_solicitou_com_argumentos_Payday_Loan_um_bicicletário_no_Instituto_Goethe_Eles_colocaram_Argumentar_em_alguns_casos_funciona (+1521) "New page: [[Image:_Payday_Loan_1132.jpg|thumb|]] [http://www.todayloan.co.uk/articles/Payday_Loan.aspx I love the Qnikke top2000 Ya estoy Payday Loan en Tuenti,] ¿que quieres? Eu brinco, eu erro,..." (view diff)
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@RJuanMa 'hCard ' Open format for publishing people, companies, organizations on the web, using a 1:1 representation of vCard http://html5doctor.com/microformats/#hcard
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tantek edited /sheet-music-examples (+18) "entry-title, autotoc, link to overall sheet music effort page in intro" (view diff)
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Loqi barnabywalters: colares left you a message 7 hours, 51 minutes ago: Hi, man! How are u doing? I've talked to tantek this mooring, he suggest me to create top level effort page for sheet-music (http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music), like http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music. what do you think? Is there a different denomination for sheet of music with pentagrams etc. and for sheet of lyrics with chords?
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Loqi barnabywalters: colares left you a message 7 hours, 50 minutes ago: I mean, like http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info
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Loqi barnabywalters: colares left you a message 6 hours, 55 minutes ago: I've updated sheet-music-examples (http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music-examples), i think both proposal has the same top level effort
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Loqi barnabywalters: colares left you a message 6 hours, 22 minutes ago: also added this page: http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music
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barnabywalters ooh, cool
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barnabywalters edited /sheet-music-examples (+462) "/* Ukulele-Tabs.com */ Added a bunch of documentation" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - I had a good chat with aaronpk about canonical parsing of rel values for microformats2
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tantek my thinking now is that a microformats2 parser should treat all rel values as document level
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tantek and that potentially we should simply include a "rels" array at the top level (same level as "items" )
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@letsnurture Try this #hcard Generator http://www.letsnurture.com/tools/hcard-generator.html
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barnabywalters good morning tantek
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barnabywalters great, I have been wondering about rel values in µf parsers
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tantek first thought was to simply create a hash inside the "rels" property, where each hash (e.g. "author") would have an array as a value, of all the URLs with that rel value on the page.
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barnabywalters perhaps “links” as the key?
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barnabywalters tantek: yep, that would be my thinking
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tantek one challenge I came up with later is that other attributes can modify the meaning of rel links
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tantek e.g. lang
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tantek and media
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tantek especially in combination with rel=alternate
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barnabywalters ah, so maybe a structure more similar to the µf structure
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tantek well we could use presence of a 'rel' attribute to trigger adding of a hyperlink to a "links" array similar to the "items" array at the root
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barnabywalters with links = array of hashes, with dict.rel = array of URLs, dict.media = media value, dict.lang = array of langs
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tantek and then each item in the links array would have a hash of href, rel, hreflang, media, type
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tantek a hyperlink can have multiple rel values
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tantek but only one href
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barnabywalters tantek: yep, that’s an option. Personally I’m not keen on the use of “href”, but it’s consistent with HTML
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tantek only one media attribute (but that itself is still an expression - e.g. media query0
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tantek I'm not keen on it either
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barnabywalters IIRC no one is actually sure what href means
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tantek hyperlink reference
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barnabywalters tantek: citation?
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barnabywalters last time I checked that was the general consensus, but no one could find the origin
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tantek I think I'd have to look up some early writings rom Tim Berners Lee
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tantek *from
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tommorris pragmatic solution
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tantek the other thought
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tantek is that the only rel value that has any co-use with other attributes is rel=alternate
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tommorris actually, disregard me. I was going to say something, but my brain has about 50 other processes competing for limited resources. :)
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tantek what if we neglected the rel-alternate use cases in favor of making all other rel use cases so much simpler.
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barnabywalters tantek: something like this? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5480953
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barnabywalters personally I am not against adding the extra information for rel-alternate. The translation use case makes it particularly valuable
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barnabywalters if we’re not recording the innerText of the link element, lang is irrelevant
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barnabywalters so the extra data is only hreflang (nasty name) and media (probably not hugely useful)
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barnabywalters would using lang for what is currently hreflang be overly confusing? as in HTML they mean two different things
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tantek it would be confusing
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tantek it's already confusing
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tantek I mean, I use alternate with hreflang (and sometimes lang) for translations
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barnabywalters yeah, probably best not add more to the pot
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tantek what's the use case for automatic discovery of alternates? like translations, or mobile versions
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barnabywalters tantek: french-speaking person visits one of your blog posts on a mobile browser, your translation links are right at the bottom, their browser detects the link with hreflang = fr, pops up a notification letting me know there’s a translated version
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tommorris we're using @hreflang on Wikipedia to link to alternative articles.
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tantek barnabywalters - another alternative (heh) is to create a separate key for alternates - since they're so "special" compared to other rel values
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tantek so we can have "rels" for all uses of rel *except* for alternate
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tantek and keep them simple
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tantek so we can do easy rel-author / in-reply-to / syndication / canonical discovery
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barnabywalters tantek: what are the advantages of that over simply adding one/two more keys?
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barnabywalters seems like adding another top-level key is more complexity
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tantek it makes the more common use case of *all other rels* easier
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barnabywalters this is true
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barnabywalters tantek: so, something like this: https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/5480962
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tantek just two more keys
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tantek alternates
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tantek rels
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barnabywalters thoughts on rels vs links for top-level key? consider that the child items have a rel attribute
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barnabywalters rels[0].rel[0] vs links[0].rel[0]
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tantek "rels": { "author": [ "url1", "url2", … ]
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tantek "in-reply-to": ["url1", "url2", … ] }
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tantek so you can easily look up the authors, or the in-reply-tos
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tantek that's the simplification that I discussed with aaronpk earlier today
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tantek "alternates" - as you provided in https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/5480962 except that "author" wouldn't make sense as a rel in combination with alternate
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tantek in fact, simplify even further, and the "rel" property/key on an "alternates" item would only have any additional rels (not counting alternate)
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tantek the examples of rel-alternate + rel-something are only "stylesheet" and "home"
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tantek so no need to make that "rel" key an array itself, but rather just a string, and if there's more than one rel value left over, just put them all in as a single string - punt on making it into an array because it's an edge case that no one has any use case for.
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tantek "alternates": [ { "url": "http://example.com/", "rel": "home", "media": "handheld", "hreflang": "fr" } ]
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tantek let's omit "title" and "lang" for now - I don't see using those in any discovery scenarios
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tantek if that sounds reasonable, I can write-up the parsing algorithm in the morning
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barnabywalters tantek: updating… what about links with rel-alternate and other rels as well?
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barnabywalters oh, you had that covered in the example – okay
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tantek yes :)
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barnabywalters what about multiple other values? possible? likely? in use?
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barnabywalters not sure I’ve ever seen it in the wild
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tantek multiple other values have never been proposed nor seen in the wild
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barnabywalters okay, so leaving it as a string
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tantek thus we can simply say, they're all in one string should that happen
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tantek space separated
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tantek set
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tantek order inconsequential in the string
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barnabywalters okay, updated. https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/5480962
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barnabywalters that all sounds reasonable to me
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tantek no links array
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tantek just rels
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tantek "rels": { "author": [ "url1", "url2", … ]
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tantek "in-reply-to": ["url1", "url2", … ] }
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barnabywalters oh, interesting — yep, that’s way simpler
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tantek with the exception that "rels" doesn't contain any "alternates" (because they're more complex than simple rels)
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barnabywalters updated
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tantek ok cool - just saw you updated the gist
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tantek a microformats2 parser that can also parse the rels into those keys will help greatly with indieweb discovery use cases
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barnabywalters tantek: sure — once you’ve done the parsing spec I’ll write some tests and get onto it over the week
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barnabywalters probably also helper functions for aggregating XFN data and associating it with an h-card
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barnabywalters e.g. a XFN+h-card blogroll -> parser -> helper tools => h-cards associated with XFN
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tantek especially if the h-cards have explicit u-url, and then the consuming application can look for any XFN rels to those URLs
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barnabywalters tantek: exactly
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tantek ok that can work
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tantek should I write up "rel-parsing" separately? or just include it as part of /wiki/microformats2-parsing ?
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tantek and thus make it a baseline part of all microfomats2 parsing?
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barnabywalters tantek: probably do usual — stick it in µf2-parsing, then if it’s too big put it elsewhere
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tantek ok, let's start with that
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tantek perhaps we can get glennjones (gjones) feedback if you see him in the channel
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barnabywalters sure
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tantek also jlsuttles
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barnabywalters perhaps leave a !tell for them both once you’ve specced out the algorithm
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tantek sure - but worth giving them a heads up and seeing if they're ok with the general idea
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barnabywalters I’ll mention it if I see them
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tantek cool
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tantek thanks for the pair-brainstorming refinement
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barnabywalters np — now back to paid work :D
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tantek now maybe I'll go to sleep. 05:06-0700
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tantek had to get these ideas out first.
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barnabywalters I thought it was weird seeing you here at this time of day!
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@rabble So @veganstraightedge's idea of using html &amp
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Loqi microformats as a data format for restful apis is intriguing. https://github.com/G5/microformats2
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@veganstraightedge @mukherjeesuman Nope! Take a look at
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tantek https://twitter.com/microformats/status/328992420463271936
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@microformats Nicely done @Svbtle and @AppDotNet! Both launched rel=me support, e.g. http://t.co/ExGLChW9O5 and https://t.co/ZJm50nZfzL
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@Martin_Cooney Chk this one: Review of Author hReview for Serious Bloggers http://www.cooney.com.au/review-of-author-hreview-for-serious-bloggers
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@urrrecords RT @blogengage @hishaman Author hReview the #hottest new plug-ins http://www.blogengage.com/blogger/enrich-your-product-reviews-with-author-hreview-plug-in/ to hit the #market #bloggers @FamousBloggers
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aaronpk tantek: I'm struggling with the in-reply-to markup on my replies
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aaronpk see this example: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/04/25/1/indieweb-qs
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aaronpk the permalink to barnaby's post is inside the h-entry for his post
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aaronpk which means it's not inside my own h-entry as a 'u-in-reply-to' URL
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aaronpk I believe I need to add a hidden in-reply-to link inside my h-entry to solve this, does that sound reasonable?
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tantek yikes - hidden link!
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tantek so here's a question - what's the value in having the h-entry on barnaby's post on your post? since his is only there for context
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tantek you're not resyndicating his post (or shouldn't be), so I'm not sure it makes sense to mark it up
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aaronpk aha!
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aaronpk that would solve it
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tantek the reply context is *almost* just presentational anyway
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aaronpk isn't it entirely presentational actually?
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tantek like should it really show up as the top of the page summary in search results for your reply?
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tantek also here's the thing - the power (and curse) of rel values is that they *do* apply to the page as a whole
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tantek so if your page as a whole represents your post
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aaronpk yes, with the new mf2 parsing we discussed using the rel value solves it
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tantek then the rel=in-reply-to works at the your page to the other page level
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tantek ah ok
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tantek don't know if you saw the iterating with barnaby very late last night / early this morning (~4am PDT)
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tantek (on IRC)
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aaronpk I did a bit
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tantek cool - I think we have it figured out
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aaronpk what was the final resolution? was there a gist?
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aaronpk oh and yes I don't want barnaby's text showing up as the page summary on my URL, for example https://www.google.com/search?q=%22replies/2013/04/25/1/indieweb-qs%22
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@istiaak Author hReview: Show Google Rich Snippet Star Rating in Search Results http://roadtoblogging.com/show-star-rating-in-google-search/
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