#microformats 2013-06-10

2013-06-10 UTC
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ptwobrussell is it fair to say (or conjecture at least) that hResume is the most popular microformat given that LinkedIn has 200M users and each of those users potentially have a public profile page that exposes it? Does anyone know of any other recent data that would break down standings in a similar way for any other web properties?
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tantek ptwobrussell, no there are 2 billion+ hCards on the web - it's by far the most popular microformat
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tantek and that was a few years ago
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tantek it's only grown since then
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ptwobrussell tantek - i'll look for that number. i'm assuming it's published out there somewhere. I can see how that would be the case. what would you imagine the top 5-10 are? it would be really useful to have a "micro format state of the union" kind of thing that broke this all down every year or so
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ptwobrussell tantek - totally different topic, but what do you think about the notion that xfn is effectively dead or at least irrelevant at this point? I can find very little useful things that have happened with it lately. This guy seems to have some good points - http://jeffreybarke.net/2013/04/whats-happening-with-xfn/
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tantek http://webdatacommons.org/ has consistently shown microformats to dominate web based structured data
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tantek XFN is still the most widely deployed distributed social connection format
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tantek plenty of things consume rel='me' - that's probably been the most useful XFN value over time
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tantek Google used to index it as part of the Social Graph API - which many apps used
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tantek but then as part of their spring cleaning (and apparent killing of server-based standards support), Google shut that down
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ptwobrussell right, so that's kind of where i am heading. i get the idea, and i like the idea, but i can't really find that much awesomeness that's actually exists with it out there.
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ptwobrussell in other words, it's a little bit hard to get excited about and place any bets on at this point, at least the way i'm currently seeing things from my recent research.
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tantek it's ok - it's still the most deployed format of its kind
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tantek so when the need for a tool emerges, someone will build it based on XFN
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tantek usage and deployment is still growing
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tantek so it makes no sense to call it "dead" just because some lists of implementations haven't been updated
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ptwobrussell but what does that really amount to *right now*? i'm not trying to be overly critical, but does being the most deployed or being useful one day really make something useful *right now*? i'm just trying to understand.
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tantek (common misconception in web standards of this sort - everyone is always looking for the new hotness)
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tantek (and most people don't remember past 2 years)
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ptwobrussell true. i hear you on that one.
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tantek what's your use case?
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tantek useful right now is all about useful for a particular use case
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tantek if you don't have a use case, why are you even bothering to ask the question?
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tantek also note that proof by negative flaw
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ptwobrussell tantek - my use case is that i'm updating a book and trying to figure out if xfn is even worth talking about from the context of the social web as it exists (mostly) right now
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tantek just because no one answers one person's tweet/blog post, nor he can think of what to do with it, doesn't mean it says anything about its usefulness to others
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ptwobrussell not sure i follow you on "proof by negative flaw" - you've probably outsmarted me on that one
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tantek what would you compare it to? OpenSocial? ActivityStreams? PortableContacts?
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tantek none of those are as widely deployed as XFN
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ptwobrussell yea, i'm not citing that blog post as authority for "xfn is dead" - just saying that i basically share the same frustration/sentiment as the author of it
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tantek well, XFN rel=me is the basis of RelMeAuth / Web Sign-in, which is the basis of IndieAuth, used by Indiewebcamp.com and other sites as a sign-in method
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tantek that's probably the most recent new implementation
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tantek and stuff like that pops up every year
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tantek what's more challenging to figure out is what's the utility for people to use the other XFN values
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tantek it used to be that everyone had a blog and a blog roll - whereby it was obvious where/how to use XFN
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ptwobrussell ok, that's very useful to know about. i haven't run across it. will make a note to look into it.
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tantek now most people just use Twitter or Facebook
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tantek you might as well say that RSS is dead
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tantek since Google is killing Google Reader
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tantek there's not even a community around RSS or Atom
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tantek whereas with XFN / microformats, you're in it: #microformats
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ptwobrussell my observations are like what you said - people are using twitter and Facebook, which doesn't use xfn, and blog rolls don't seem to be what they once were
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tantek and a reasonably active wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/ - even if some stuff is out of date (inevitable for any wiki)
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ptwobrussell so that puts xfn in a bit of a predicament at the moment. not that it's dead. it may very well have a bright future. i just don't know what for sure right now
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tantek using that logic, then you should argue that RSS/Atom are dead too
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tantek since people use Twitter and Facebook instead of those
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tantek so I'm not sure the criteria you're using make much sense from an open standards perspective
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tantek excuse me while I clean some spam
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ptwobrussell i'm honestly just trying to get some perspective. i understand that you are a microformats champion (so with that comes some bias), and i totally respect that. my conundrum is that i can find lots of great examples and things to say about lots of other microformats, but not so much on the xfn side of things. it's a bit of a challenge to come up with good example of something to do with it that is generally useful
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ptwobrussell for a person right now whereas it's pretty easy to come up with things for hRecipe, hResume, hCard, geo, etc.
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tantek yeah - Google's killing of SG API hurt quite a bit
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tantek since many sites/apps were just calling the Google SG API
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tantek instead of parsing XFN directly
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tantek I think we're learning our lesson
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ptwobrussell maybe here's another way to frame what i'm trying to get at: what would you say is a useful application of XFN for a general web developer these days? (my old example was doing a breadth first search on a blogroll, but it hardly seems that useful anymore)
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tantek to not trust any Google services that use / support open standards
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tantek because they'll just kill them off any way
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tantek that's the larger story
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tantek well - sites like Dopplr would import your XFN friends lists
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tantek btw - when you see wiki pages that seem out of date - or examples as such - could you edit the wiki accordingly and just make a parenthetical note next to them?
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tantek that way someone can look at it and either archive it as a historical example, or find a new URL
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ptwobrussell sure, i can do that.
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tantek thanks, appreciated!
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ptwobrussell to be clear, i get what you're saying (your logic and all) and i'm on your side here. i like indie initiative and open standard and don't' like corporate juggernauts so much or people's dependence on them. i also am very excited about micformats and other semantic markup initiatives and think that they are providing significant value to both content authors and consumes alike…and i have lots of great things i can
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ptwobrussell say about micro formats like hresume, hcalendar, etc. What I'm steering towards right now, though, is just pretty much not talking about xfn, because i'm having a hard time finding something good/exciting to say about it *right now*.
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tantek btw "microformat" is one word
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tantek not "micro formats"
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ptwobrussell i know. colloquy sucks.
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tantek ah - yeah I turned off that autocorrect in text fields
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tantek it's crap for tech discussions
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ptwobrussell i have to fix about 1 out of every 10 words it autocorrects for me, and i just gave up on that one
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tantek OSX
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tantek I just turned it off for OSX
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tantek the biggest thing XFN is being used for today, day to day, is Web Sign-in / RelMeAuth
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/web-sign-in
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tantek e.g. indieauth / #indiewebcamp depends on it: http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth
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ptwobrussell i'll have to dig in to this some. i'm very familiar with oauth and its evolution but not at all with indieauth.
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tantek you didn't answer my questions about RSS / Atom / OpenSocial / ActivityStreams / PortableContacts
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ptwobrussell what i would compare it to?
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tantek btw this is the latest on a lot of microformats status - talk I gave at HTML5DevConf
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tantek http://tantek.com/2013/157/t2/latetst-html5-microformats-video-slides
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tantek apply your criteria/critiques of XFN to those as well: RSS / Atom / OpenSocial / ActivityStreams / PortableContacts
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tantek and what result do you get?
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ptwobrussell oh, this looks very useful - the video slides. thanks.
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tantek np
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tantek any questions you would ask of XFN, ask of those as well
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ptwobrussell i get what you're saying, and that's a very fair/consistent way to reason about it.
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ptwobrussell tantek - would you be at all interested in reviewing the updated draft chapter of my book that touches on microformats to provide any feedback on anything you think deserves attention/correction/etc.? microformats take up about 3/4 of a chapter, and the chapter is primarily focused on practical things that you as a web developer could do with them as opposed to a lot of philosophy or history, although there is a
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ptwobrussell little bit of that.
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tantek I like focus on practical things :)
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ptwobrussell i'm going to have to wrap it up for the night, but if you're interested i'd be glad to send you a link to a manuscript of the whole book (that you could actually peruse online with O'Reilly's new HTML5-based experimental review system) so that you can see the general scope and flow of things and how the chapter that discusses microformats fits into that overall flow. i'd be grateful for your feedback but understand
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ptwobrussell that we're all pretty busy, so it's just an open invitation and i'll understand if you decline. i'd be able to share the link out with you early this coming week and wouldn't need any feedback till July 1
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ptwobrussell I"m guessing the content you'd want to review carefully is probably 30 pages or so out of 350+
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tantek sure - that sounds good
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tantek my given name at my given name dot com works
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ptwobrussell got it. well thanks for your willingness to review and also for the good conversation this evening. i appreciate them both. i'll be in touch. good night.
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Loqi goodnight!
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tantek ptwobrussell - thanks for asking good questions - those are always appreciated.
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JonathanNeal tantek: what's that other irc channel you frequent?
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JonathanNeal The one that talks about all sorts of indie web stuffs
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cole13hayden created /5_Important_Items_For_Antiques_In_India. (+3602) "New page: It is human to experience nostalgia. . The Vast Majority Of tender thoughts of specific things they related to as a kid. That could include an aged gift, a novel, a unique spot that they ..." (view diff)
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tommorris deleted /5_Important_Items_For_Antiques_In_India. "Vandalism"
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kaylenest created /Detroit_Firms_Depend_On_Cygnus_To_Give_It_Support (+2688) "New page: Murdoch-owned Fox Information also performs a function in the slip of assist among the Republicans. In accordance to the Washington Submit, Gene Karpinski, president of the League of Conse..." (view diff)
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geraldoba created /Gute_Kanzlei_in_Augsburg (+3255) "New page: Zunächst ist es signifikant zu erinnern, dass es sich bei dem Anwalt um einen kompletten Juristen handelt, der auch zusätzliche Berufe wie Ankläger, Richter oder auch Notar aufgreifen k..." (view diff)
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tommorris deleted /Gute_Kanzlei_in_Augsburg "Vandalism"
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:AbigailOs]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek deleted /Recent_Musing_6 "content was spam"
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fernandoe created /Rechtsanwalt_in_Augsburg (+3328) "New page: Vorerst ist es bedeutend zu thematisieren, dass es sich bei dem Rechtsvertreter um einen kompletten Juristen handelt, welcher auch weitere Berufsfelder wie Ankläger, Richterin oder Notar ..." (view diff)
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tommorris deleted /Kubki_reklamowe_z_nadrukiem_firmowym_i_logo_-_nadruki "Vandalism"
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haleys63 created /Bike_Parts_To_Consider_For_Function_And_Flare (+3585) "New page: Most of the bigger vendors utilize exclusive alloys (combination of aluminum and other metals) to construct their bike frames, and each supplier touts their certain brand and the way they ..." (view diff)
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tommorris deleted /Bike_Parts_To_Consider_For_Function_And_Flare "Vandalism"
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:HaleyS63]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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sharon52room created /Learn_The_Truth_Regarding_Fat_Burning_By_Debunking_The_Misconceptions (+3640) "New page: In the world of losing weight there are lots of misconceptions thrown around, some more foolish than others. The reason they're called myths is because lots of people believe them but it d..." (view diff)
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Sharon52room]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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cweiske tantek, could you reset my password in the wiki? username "cweiske"
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tantek cweiske - yeah still working on fixing the wiki to do so, sorry about that. it's in my queue. :/ http://microformats.org/wiki/admin-to-do#wiki_problems
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tommorris deleted /Top_5_Best_Indie_Movies_Of_The_Last_10_Years "Vandalism"
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tommorris deleted /Operate_A_Meals_Shipping_And_Delivery_Support_With_A_Refrigerated_Car. "Vandalism"
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:HeatherF5]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:BarrettMu]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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avek9y9iwa created /Want_to_Stay_Motivated_to_Reach_Your_Fitness_Goals?_Use_These_Proven_Tactics (+2620) "New page: Encouraging Fitness Tips to Keep You Going A lot of people would love to work out on a regular basis but it's easier said than done. There are many obstacles that can stand in your way, s..." (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:DannyGil]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek deleted /free_roblox_generator "content was spam"
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tantek deleted /So_Why_Used_Bucket_Trucks_Are_A_Perfect_ıdea "content was spam"
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tantek deleted /Catering_in_Düsseldorf_-_dies_immer_bekanntere_Party_Addon "content was spam"
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tantek deleted /Figure_out_how_to_turn_into_a_music_expert "content was spam"
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tantek deleted /Confidential_Information_on_Diet_Pills_That_Only_The_Experts_Know_Exist "content was spam"
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pluke43 created /A_good_Very_few_Hints_for_Finding_More_and_more_ReverbNation_Followers (+5218) "If employed correctly, a performing songwriter's most valuable marketing asset may be his e-mail checklist. Lots of composers put every one of their promotional efforts to the most recent social media sites, like FB, Twitter and ReverbNation without" (view diff)
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mlmguy10 created /If_You're_Looking_To_Expand_Your_Business_You_May_Want_To_Consider_The_Internet_For_Marketing_And_Advertising_Your_Business (+3689) "New page: If you have a business already set up, you will not find any better way to reach prospective customers than by utilizing online advertising. As a result of the reality that the Internet is..." (view diff)
nonge, bnvk, benward_ and Phae joined the channel
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tommorris deleted /A_good_Very_few_Hints_for_Finding_More_and_more_ReverbNation_Followers "Vandalism"
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Pluke43]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Mlmguy10]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tommorris deleted /Summary_Report_by_Ludwig_Eckl,_February_14th_2013 "Vandalism"
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Wes69eight]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tommorris deleted /garcinia_cambogia_extract_pure "Vandalism"
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:IvanKozak]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tommorris deleted /3D_Printer_Profits_-_Prize_Winning_Opinions "Vandalism"
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Rey6tie]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Brandy4knee]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tommorris deleted /User:lbufxr29 "Vandalism"
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tommorris deleted /Email_Marketing_-_Are_Your_List_Building_Efforts_Making_You_Money? "Vandalism"
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Lyleahmad15]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tommorris deleted /The_leading_music_dj_as_special_liberty_to_match_up_together_with_most_Budget "Vandalism"
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:VelmaLust]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:MarcosRey]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:IolaSFG]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Randolph5]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Crab2icicle]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Yachtdish19]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek deleted /garcinia_cambogia_extract_pure "content was spam"
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tantek deleted /Diet_Pills:_Pros_And_Cons "content was spam"
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