#microformats 2013-06-10

2013-06-10 UTC
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Loqi
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Loqi
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Loqi
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ptwobrussell
is it fair to say (or conjecture at least) that hResume is the most popular microformat given that LinkedIn has 200M users and each of those users potentially have a public profile page that exposes it? Does anyone know of any other recent data that would break down standings in a similar way for any other web properties?
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tantek
ptwobrussell, no there are 2 billion+ hCards on the web - it's by far the most popular microformat
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tantek
and that was a few years ago
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tantek
it's only grown since then
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ptwobrussell
tantek - i'll look for that number. i'm assuming it's published out there somewhere. I can see how that would be the case. what would you imagine the top 5-10 are? it would be really useful to have a "micro format state of the union" kind of thing that broke this all down every year or so
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ptwobrussell
tantek - totally different topic, but what do you think about the notion that xfn is effectively dead or at least irrelevant at this point? I can find very little useful things that have happened with it lately. This guy seems to have some good points - http://jeffreybarke.net/2013/04/whats-happening-with-xfn/
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tantek
http://webdatacommons.org/ has consistently shown microformats to dominate web based structured data
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tantek
XFN is still the most widely deployed distributed social connection format
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tantek
plenty of things consume rel='me' - that's probably been the most useful XFN value over time
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tantek
Google used to index it as part of the Social Graph API - which many apps used
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tantek
but then as part of their spring cleaning (and apparent killing of server-based standards support), Google shut that down
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ptwobrussell
right, so that's kind of where i am heading. i get the idea, and i like the idea, but i can't really find that much awesomeness that's actually exists with it out there.
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ptwobrussell
in other words, it's a little bit hard to get excited about and place any bets on at this point, at least the way i'm currently seeing things from my recent research.
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tantek
it's ok - it's still the most deployed format of its kind
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tantek
so when the need for a tool emerges, someone will build it based on XFN
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tantek
usage and deployment is still growing
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tantek
so it makes no sense to call it "dead" just because some lists of implementations haven't been updated
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ptwobrussell
but what does that really amount to *right now*? i'm not trying to be overly critical, but does being the most deployed or being useful one day really make something useful *right now*? i'm just trying to understand.
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tantek
(common misconception in web standards of this sort - everyone is always looking for the new hotness)
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tantek
(and most people don't remember past 2 years)
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ptwobrussell
true. i hear you on that one.
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tantek
what's your use case?
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tantek
useful right now is all about useful for a particular use case
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tantek
if you don't have a use case, why are you even bothering to ask the question?
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tantek
also note that proof by negative flaw
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ptwobrussell
tantek - my use case is that i'm updating a book and trying to figure out if xfn is even worth talking about from the context of the social web as it exists (mostly) right now
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tantek
just because no one answers one person's tweet/blog post, nor he can think of what to do with it, doesn't mean it says anything about its usefulness to others
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ptwobrussell
not sure i follow you on "proof by negative flaw" - you've probably outsmarted me on that one
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tantek
what would you compare it to? OpenSocial? ActivityStreams? PortableContacts?
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tantek
none of those are as widely deployed as XFN
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ptwobrussell
yea, i'm not citing that blog post as authority for "xfn is dead" - just saying that i basically share the same frustration/sentiment as the author of it
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tantek
well, XFN rel=me is the basis of RelMeAuth / Web Sign-in, which is the basis of IndieAuth, used by Indiewebcamp.com and other sites as a sign-in method
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tantek
that's probably the most recent new implementation
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tantek
and stuff like that pops up every year
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tantek
what's more challenging to figure out is what's the utility for people to use the other XFN values
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tantek
it used to be that everyone had a blog and a blog roll - whereby it was obvious where/how to use XFN
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ptwobrussell
ok, that's very useful to know about. i haven't run across it. will make a note to look into it.
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tantek
now most people just use Twitter or Facebook
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tantek
you might as well say that RSS is dead
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tantek
since Google is killing Google Reader
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tantek
there's not even a community around RSS or Atom
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tantek
whereas with XFN / microformats, you're in it: #microformats
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ptwobrussell
my observations are like what you said - people are using twitter and Facebook, which doesn't use xfn, and blog rolls don't seem to be what they once were
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tantek
and a reasonably active wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/ - even if some stuff is out of date (inevitable for any wiki)
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ptwobrussell
so that puts xfn in a bit of a predicament at the moment. not that it's dead. it may very well have a bright future. i just don't know what for sure right now
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tantek
using that logic, then you should argue that RSS/Atom are dead too
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tantek
since people use Twitter and Facebook instead of those
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tantek
so I'm not sure the criteria you're using make much sense from an open standards perspective
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excuse me while I clean some spam
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ptwobrussell
i'm honestly just trying to get some perspective. i understand that you are a microformats champion (so with that comes some bias), and i totally respect that. my conundrum is that i can find lots of great examples and things to say about lots of other microformats, but not so much on the xfn side of things. it's a bit of a challenge to come up with good example of something to do with it that is generally useful
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ptwobrussell
for a person right now whereas it's pretty easy to come up with things for hRecipe, hResume, hCard, geo, etc.
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tantek
yeah - Google's killing of SG API hurt quite a bit
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tantek
since many sites/apps were just calling the Google SG API
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tantek
instead of parsing XFN directly
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tantek
I think we're learning our lesson
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ptwobrussell
maybe here's another way to frame what i'm trying to get at: what would you say is a useful application of XFN for a general web developer these days? (my old example was doing a breadth first search on a blogroll, but it hardly seems that useful anymore)
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tantek
to not trust any Google services that use / support open standards
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tantek
because they'll just kill them off any way
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tantek
that's the larger story
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tantek
well - sites like Dopplr would import your XFN friends lists
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tantek
btw - when you see wiki pages that seem out of date - or examples as such - could you edit the wiki accordingly and just make a parenthetical note next to them?
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tantek
that way someone can look at it and either archive it as a historical example, or find a new URL
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ptwobrussell
sure, i can do that.
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tantek
thanks, appreciated!
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ptwobrussell
to be clear, i get what you're saying (your logic and all) and i'm on your side here. i like indie initiative and open standard and don't' like corporate juggernauts so much or people's dependence on them. i also am very excited about micformats and other semantic markup initiatives and think that they are providing significant value to both content authors and consumes alike…and i have lots of great things i can
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ptwobrussell
say about micro formats like hresume, hcalendar, etc. What I'm steering towards right now, though, is just pretty much not talking about xfn, because i'm having a hard time finding something good/exciting to say about it *right now*.
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tantek
btw "microformat" is one word
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tantek
not "micro formats"
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ptwobrussell
i know. colloquy sucks.
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tantek
ah - yeah I turned off that autocorrect in text fields
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tantek
it's crap for tech discussions
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ptwobrussell
i have to fix about 1 out of every 10 words it autocorrects for me, and i just gave up on that one
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tantek
I just turned it off for OSX
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tantek
the biggest thing XFN is being used for today, day to day, is Web Sign-in / RelMeAuth
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tantek
e.g. indieauth / #indiewebcamp depends on it: http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth
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ptwobrussell
i'll have to dig in to this some. i'm very familiar with oauth and its evolution but not at all with indieauth.
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tantek
you didn't answer my questions about RSS / Atom / OpenSocial / ActivityStreams / PortableContacts
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ptwobrussell
what i would compare it to?
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tantek
btw this is the latest on a lot of microformats status - talk I gave at HTML5DevConf
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tantek
apply your criteria/critiques of XFN to those as well: RSS / Atom / OpenSocial / ActivityStreams / PortableContacts
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tantek
and what result do you get?
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ptwobrussell
oh, this looks very useful - the video slides. thanks.
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tantek
any questions you would ask of XFN, ask of those as well
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ptwobrussell
i get what you're saying, and that's a very fair/consistent way to reason about it.
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ptwobrussell
tantek - would you be at all interested in reviewing the updated draft chapter of my book that touches on microformats to provide any feedback on anything you think deserves attention/correction/etc.? microformats take up about 3/4 of a chapter, and the chapter is primarily focused on practical things that you as a web developer could do with them as opposed to a lot of philosophy or history, although there is a
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ptwobrussell
little bit of that.
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tantek
I like focus on practical things :)
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ptwobrussell
i'm going to have to wrap it up for the night, but if you're interested i'd be glad to send you a link to a manuscript of the whole book (that you could actually peruse online with O'Reilly's new HTML5-based experimental review system) so that you can see the general scope and flow of things and how the chapter that discusses microformats fits into that overall flow. i'd be grateful for your feedback but understand
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ptwobrussell
that we're all pretty busy, so it's just an open invitation and i'll understand if you decline. i'd be able to share the link out with you early this coming week and wouldn't need any feedback till July 1
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ptwobrussell
I"m guessing the content you'd want to review carefully is probably 30 pages or so out of 350+
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tantek
sure - that sounds good
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tantek
my given name at my given name dot com works
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ptwobrussell
got it. well thanks for your willingness to review and also for the good conversation this evening. i appreciate them both. i'll be in touch. good night.
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Loqi
goodnight!
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tantek
ptwobrussell - thanks for asking good questions - those are always appreciated.
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JonathanNeal
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The one that talks about all sorts of indie web stuffs
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:RosariaRo]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:SabineI35]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
deleted /Recent_Musing_6 "content was spam"
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fernandoe
created /Rechtsanwalt_in_Augsburg (+3328) "New page: Vorerst ist es bedeutend zu thematisieren, dass es sich bei dem Rechtsvertreter um einen kompletten Juristen handelt, welcher auch weitere Berufsfelder wie Ankläger, Richterin oder Notar ..."
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:FernandoE]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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TallTed joined the channel
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michell96
created /Kubki_reklamowe_z_nadrukiem_firmowym_i_logo_-_nadruki (+3316) "New page: kubki reklamowe jest wariantu garnuszek, kto może być popularnie sporzÄ…dzone przy użyciu ciÄ™ na drodze. Nierzadko siÅ‚a robocza napotykajÄ… komplikacja przewożenia swoich napojów po..."
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Michell96]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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eschnou joined the channel
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haleys63
created /Bike_Parts_To_Consider_For_Function_And_Flare (+3585) "New page: Most of the bigger vendors utilize exclusive alloys (combination of aluminum and other metals) to construct their bike frames, and each supplier touts their certain brand and the way they ..."
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:HaleyS63]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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sharon52room
created /Learn_The_Truth_Regarding_Fat_Burning_By_Debunking_The_Misconceptions (+3640) "New page: In the world of losing weight there are lots of misconceptions thrown around, some more foolish than others. The reason they're called myths is because lots of people believe them but it d..."
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Sharon52room]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek, zztr and cweiske joined the channel
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cweiske
tantek, could you reset my password in the wiki? username "cweiske"
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tantek
cweiske - yeah still working on fixing the wiki to do so, sorry about that. it's in my queue. :/ http://microformats.org/wiki/admin-to-do#wiki_problems
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heatherf5
created /Top_5_Best_Indie_Movies_Of_The_Last_10_Years (+2878) "New page: Movies are great and in the market they are thousands of movie releases and yet sometimes it may be difficult to choose a good movie. Below are instructions that will guide you in choosing..."
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barrettmu
created /Operate_A_Meals_Shipping_And_Delivery_Support_With_A_Refrigerated_Car. (+2391) "New page: To include sophistication to stated honeymoon, let us now deliver luxury and impeccable support to that combine and suddenly we're speaking about an unforgettable vacation!<br><br>Several ..."
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:HeatherF5]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:BarrettMu]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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dannygil
created /free_roblox_generator (+288) "New page: hi,<br><br>I got the free roblox generator :) , download here the new free roblox generator now ! enjoy ulimited roblox http://robloxgenerator.blogspot.fr<br><br>Here is more info in regar..."
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toddclaude19
created /GEN310_is_an_quite_cost-effective,_Exclusive_Member_Club (+3253) "New page: [http://www.ibosocial.com/chrishickman/pressrelease.aspx?prid=255944 baby gen 310] Baby Gen 310 is an extremely cost-effective, Private Membership Club, which provides on the web training..."
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@Nobitran
Yang Suka Abisin Uang Jajan di Depan Sekolah, Masuk! - http://kask.us/hcARD #kaskus
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wvxangr2013
created /User:wvxangr2013 (+4060) "Tiffany And Co Outlet Electric Battery precisely a brief cap"
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aaronpk joined the channel
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avek9y9iwa
created /Want_to_Stay_Motivated_to_Reach_Your_Fitness_Goals?_Use_These_Proven_Tactics (+2620) "New page: Encouraging Fitness Tips to Keep You Going A lot of people would love to work out on a regular basis but it's easier said than done. There are many obstacles that can stand in your way, s..."
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KevinMarks, itsy and hober joined the channel
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chasefolk
created /So_Why_Used_Bucket_Trucks_Are_A_Perfect_ıdea (+4440) "New page: [http://www.buckettrucks2.com/locate-a-bucket-truck/ what are bucket trucks]<br><br>[http://www.buckettrucks2.com bucket truck]<br><br>Furthermore, the responsibilities involving electrica..."
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iandrew
created /Catering_in_Düsseldorf_-_dies_immer_bekanntere_Party_Addon (+4047) "New page: Nicht mehr immer soll man Feste, Familien- & Betriebsfeste oder aber Business-Meetings ganz alleine vorbereiten, denn Catering-Firmen bieten mittlerweile ein immer reichhaltigeres Kompl..."
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sivoais_, tantek and eschnou joined the channel
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angiewing
created /Figure_out_how_to_turn_into_a_music_expert (+4153) "New page: In the event that you aren't able to locate a local singing teacher or cannot afford to pay for their charges, online vocal courses, like Singing Made Simple and Singorama maybe a handy an..."
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ulrichper
created /Confidential_Information_on_Diet_Pills_That_Only_The_Experts_Know_Exist (+2900) "New page: <br>You may choose which among the two sorts that you need to select but there are also slimming capsules that provide both results.Many OTC fat burners are meant for obese adults and aren..."
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:DannyGil]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Toddclaude19]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Wvxangr2013]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Avek9y9iwa]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:ChaseFolk]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:IanDrew]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:AngieWing]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:UlrichPer]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
deleted /free_roblox_generator "content was spam"
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tantek
deleted /User:wvxangr2013 "content was spam"
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pluke43
created /A_good_Very_few_Hints_for_Finding_More_and_more_ReverbNation_Followers (+5218) "If employed correctly, a performing songwriter's most valuable marketing asset may be his e-mail checklist. Lots of composers put every one of their promotional efforts to the most recent social media sites, like FB, Twitter and ReverbNation without"
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mlmguy10
created /If_You're_Looking_To_Expand_Your_Business_You_May_Want_To_Consider_The_Internet_For_Marketing_And_Advertising_Your_Business (+3689) "New page: If you have a business already set up, you will not find any better way to reach prospective customers than by utilizing online advertising. As a result of the reality that the Internet is..."
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nonge, bnvk, benward_ and Phae joined the channel
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wes69eight
created /Summary_Report_by_Ludwig_Eckl,_February_14th_2013 (+7925) "New page: Telemedicine - Future of Medical Medication Telemedicine is a fast developing application of medical medication where medical information is transferred through interactive audiovisual med..."
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ivankozak
created /garcinia_cambogia_extract_pure (+4282) "New page: Garcinia Cambogia can be a berry normally found in The african continent along with Asia. This kind of warm fruit is actually grouped because the citrus fruit loved ones, wherein lemons an..."
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Pluke43]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Mlmguy10]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Wes69eight]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:IvanKozak]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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iSRAELi and zztr joined the channel
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rey6tie
created /3D_Printer_Profits_-_Prize_Winning_Opinions (+3019) "New page: 3d printers are merely incredibly alike to the replicators of Star Trek! I recognize it seems mad, however this is genuine these work like it. Sam Frlan is the creator and author of 3d ..."
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madelaine
created /User:Madelaine (+366) "New page: Jere is the name people use to call him and his wife doesn't like it at all. Playing country music is something he really enjoys doing. Some time ago he chose to live in Utah and his paren..."
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Rey6tie]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tommorris
deleted /User:Madelaine "Vandalism"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Madelaine]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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brandy4knee
created /Understanding_Farming_Giant_Games (+3446) "New page: From harvesting meals to tending to... Cafe World" is an interactive game performed with associates on Facebook. This Zynga recreation is just like video games comparable to "CityVille," "..."
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Brandy4knee]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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eschnou and bnvk joined the channel
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lbufxr29
created /User:lbufxr29 (+5726) "hqug cheapwholesalesoccerjerseys.com wuhb"
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sovdgo39
created /User:sovdgo39 (+4597) "hhbp cheap nfl jerseys htem"
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fmuzzx38
created /User:fmuzzx38 (+5107) "ajwi cheap kids nfl jerseys zewx"
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tommorris
deleted /User:lbufxr29 "Vandalism"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Lbufxr29]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tommorris
deleted /User:sovdgo39 "Vandalism"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Sovdgo39]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tommorris
deleted /User:fmuzzx38 "Vandalism"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Fmuzzx38]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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lyleahmad15
created /Email_Marketing_-_Are_Your_List_Building_Efforts_Making_You_Money? (+3123) "New page: You've probably heard that the money is in the list. Undoubtedly there is some semblance of truth to the line. But if you want to achieve lasting success in your business enterprise, you m..."
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dosbdm96
created /User:dosbdm96 (+6334) "ybej michael kors bags outlet xagp"
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velmalust
created /The_leading_music_dj_as_special_liberty_to_match_up_together_with_most_Budget (+2026) "New page: Since the English horn intention of the agglomeration decency DJs at Toronto is flesh show, they outreach services that accordance the most cogent kind of flesh show which contains new mus..."
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Lyleahmad15]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tommorris
deleted /User:dosbdm96 "Vandalism"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Dosbdm96]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tommorris
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:VelmaLust]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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marcosrey
created /garcinia_cambogia_extract_pure (+4833) "New page: Do you need via obesity? Do you wish to lose fat? There are numerous treatments out there that may help you to shed pounds but they are significantly less efficient since the Garcinia Camb..."
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iolasfg
created /pure_garcinia_cambogia_extract (+4263) "New page: Garcinia Cambogia is quickly the most well-liked diet supplements on the market, with retailers and internet-based stores frequently marketing soldout. Dr. Oz showcased your health supplem..."
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randolph5
created /Diet_Pills:_Pros_And_Cons (+3181) "New page: <br>We’ve been in diet pills market for over 5 years now and carried out extensive analysis into different fat burners offered available on the market today. “ How can I find a diet ta..."
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KevinMarks and bnvk joined the channel
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ralfy40
created /green_coffee_bean_extract_for_weight_loss (+4451) "New page: There are a variety of natural coffee beans, many of them even caffeine free, such as: the Jamaican orange huge batch and the Hawaii one particular. Certain kinds of natural environmentall..."
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iSRAELi joined the channel
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crab2icicle
created /How_to_Make_Sure_Your_Web_Marketing_Biz_Survives_the_Google_Panda_Update (+3566) "New page: Google's motives were good when they launched the Panda update. The goal of the Panda update was to rid searches of all of those spammy content web sites that had started to take control o..."
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yachtdish19
created /payday_loan_lenders_only (+3162) "New page: Payday express helps consumers who're in search of payday loans. Here you can get various amounts differing from a hundred or so to seven hundred and fifty Euro. These can be used to cove..."
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:MarcosRey]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:IolaSFG]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Randolph5]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:RalfY40]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Crab2icicle]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Yachtdish19]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites"
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tantek
deleted /garcinia_cambogia_extract_pure "content was spam"
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tantek
deleted /pure_garcinia_cambogia_extract "content was spam"
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tantek
deleted /Diet_Pills:_Pros_And_Cons "content was spam"
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tantek
deleted /payday_loan_lenders_only "content was spam"
sivoais and bnvk joined the channel
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efrainvra
created /Phen375_Side_Effects:_Is_It_Safe_Or_Not_Likely (+3341) "New page: The acai berry Select does not just for help the dude lose weight, in addition, it detoxifies the body chemistry from harmful oxidants. The supplement needs to utilized 20 minutes until to..."
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mlspexpert83
created /Make_Cash_Today_By_Offering_Services_On_The_Web (+3301) "New page: One of the frustrations for folks who are new to the planet of internet marketing and advertising is the challenge of making that first dollar online which can give you that belief that it..."
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