#microformats 2013-08-12

2013-08-12 UTC
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tantek edited /existing-rel-values (+231) "/* HTML5 link type extensions */ add rel=webmention, since it has a specification, and implementations" (view diff)
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tantek edited /pingback (+108) "note webmention as replacement" (view diff)
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tommorris edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[make real money online]]": spam [create=sysop]" (view diff)
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@StepUpWeb hCard — формат, предназначенный для публикации контактной информации http://www.step-up-web.ru/hcard/ (twitter.com/_/status/366803206744981504)
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@The_hCard The hCard is Funding the Heart of America! http://100percentfundraiser.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/366978472272338944)
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tantek shaners, well done. you've provoked the editor of the JSONLD spec into writing a very childish blog post that beyond trying to argue your points, succumbs to plenty of baseless attacks
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tantek found via @kevinmarks
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aaronpk link?
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aaronpk found it http://manu.sporny.org/2013/json-ld-is-the-bees-knees/
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tantek I would hope that no one here would resort to mocking animated gifs to substantiate their arguments, as that post does.
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aaronpk wow
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aaronpk lol I like how the counterargument to shaners point about machine readable data formats changing every couple years is "At no point has any core designer of JSON-LD claimed 1) that JSON-LD will “solve our problems” (or even your particular problem), 2) that it won’t change, and 3) that it will be supported forever."
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tantek we have other venues for mocking gifs: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/
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tantek aaronpk - indeed, that reads like a lengthy admission of shaners's point
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tantek shaners, welcome to the you've-been-mocked-by-a-prominent-semweb-person club
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aaronpk LOL "There have been no new Microformats released in the last 5 years" and "the mailing list traffic has been almost non-existent for around 5 years"
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aaronpk perhaps there should be an email update posted to the list directing people off of email and suggesting using IRC and the wiki
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tantek aaronpk - maybe we could get an automated posting once a year or something :)
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aaronpk lol yeah
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tantek it is pretty ironic - though one could be excused for missing all the progress we've made among the wikispam in recentchanges
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Loqi MISS ALL THE PROGRESS http://loqi.me/7mg
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tantek I mean, it's not like there haven't been well attended presentations, talks, on microformats in the past year, with video on youtube of all the advances ;)
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aaronpk wow the second comment is interesting http://manu.sporny.org/2013/json-ld-is-the-bees-knees/#comment-2795
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tantek aaronpk - indeed. really gets to the heart of any of manu's argumentative posts.
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aaronpk yea, ough
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aaronpk ouch*
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tantek the post is a clear emotional overreaction, not indicative of a response that would show a desire for rational discussion/clarification
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tantek I've basically deprioritized posts like that.
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tantek too much productive/rational work to do with productive/rational people first.
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@Mr_AndersonJr Walter Tariq Anderson - You Have Zero Privacy! http://www.youhavezeroprivacy.com/hcard/ahJ5b3VoYXZlemVyb3ByaXZhY3lyDwsSB1Byb2ZpbGUYx9EBDA (twitter.com/_/status/367012477529096192)
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Hixie wtf is json-ld
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tantek Hixie - lolololol
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Hixie no really
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Hixie is it just another serialisation format for RDF?
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Hixie basically a JSON vocabulary for describing RDF quads, the way that RDFa is an XHTML extension vocabulary for describing quads and the way RDF-XML is an XML vocabulary for describing quads and the way n3 and turtle are dedicated syntaxes for describing quads?
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bret I mean, I get the impression that people feel the need for extensive vocabulary standards
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bret hence schema.org, RDF, JSON-LD and activity streams
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tantek bret - some of them have some use-cases, others, do not
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bret right, it just seems odd not to build off of the one that exists in the wild
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tantek some of it is historical, some cultural, some ego
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bret tantek: what about the uF2 search engine support statement?
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bret didn't Bret or Brad talk to you about that this year?
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tantek which statement? URL?
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bret i though I OH something
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bret lack of uF2 support in search engines
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bret that was one of the pieces of criticism in the JSON-LD rebuttal article
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tantek I don't know of any support yet - there's no definitive proof either way until either someone see something working (positive result), or a search engine representative makes an official statement of non-support.
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tantek hah - as if search engines index JSONLD or any JSON at all. hilarious.
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tantek what we do know is that as specific microformats are adopted and published, search engine support increases over time
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tantek per http://microformats.org/wiki/recently-in-microformats#Google_is_parsing_hMedia etc.
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tantek same thing previously happened with hAtom
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tantek and is likely to happen in the (near?) future with h-entry + h-card
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bret tantek: isn't payswarm working with mozilla on some payment stuff?
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bret thats what I was told in their IRC room a while ago
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tantek not that I know of. i'd say whenever people make claims about mozilla like that, ask for a URL that proves it.
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bret heh ok. I'm to trusting
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tantek it's what happens when people ignore and/or make fun of your technology for so long (RDF)
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tantek people get defensive and/or exaggerate to compensate
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tantek the semweb crowd are known for making exaggerated and misleading claims (e.g. claiming that FB OGP is "RDFa", and then later redefining RDFa to include an "og:" default prefix)
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bret :[
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tantek pretty ironic for a crowd which advocates figuring out how to communicate "trust" on the web
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danbri tantek, that's not a very nice thing to say
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tantek danbri - happy to provide citations
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tantek e.g. Peter Mika's post about RDFa adoption - included plenty of OGP which was not RDFa (per the spec at the time)
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danbri it was buggy rdfa
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tantek danbri - it was meta tags 2.0
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tantek even to call it buggy rdfa is an exaggeration
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danbri it was also not to your taste
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tantek intent of rdfa was to provide an RDF-like way to markup visible data, like microformats
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tantek none of FB OGP is marking up visible data
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danbri it was more about bridging the gap
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tantek calling OGP meta tags 2.0 is more accurate than calling it RDFa
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tantek what you call "bridging the gap" - I'm calling intentional exaggeration
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tantek danbri - if you want to go way back - all the shenanigans around "RSS" "1.0" / Winer were pretty bad too
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danbri how far back do you want to go?
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tantek you claimed "not a nice thing to say", I provided citations.
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tantek I've basically given up on hearing actually precise statement about adoption from semweb advocates.
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tantek which is pretty ironic
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tantek since greater precision is often given as a reason for extensible / distributed vocabularies, namespaces, etc.
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danbri http://scripting.com/midas/mcf.html
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danbri "I had a few hours on Christmas morning to do some experimenting and planning. It looks like there's an opportunity for us to add to the MCF standard. It also looks like it's happening, so it's time to jump on the bandwagon and start digging..."
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tantek danbri - critiquing winer does nothing to remove criticism of behaviors by semweb folks
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tantek "they do it too" or "he did it first" are never a defense
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tantek you know better than that
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danbri i criticise specific semweb people's behaviour too
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danbri i try to avoid sweeping generalisations about "semweb types" (or microformat types)
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danbri (unless i'm saying something nice, hopefully)
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tantek indeed there are exceptions
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tantek have had plenty of discussions with tommorris for example (who is one such exception)
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danbri e.g. I thought quoting someone else saying 'rdfa is microformats done right' in http://www.slideshare.net/mark.birbeck/the-5-minute-guide-to-rdfain-only-6-minutes-40-seconds was needlessly hostile
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bret we are all just trying to make each other better right? :)
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tantek he's pretty blatantly up front about success/failures
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tantek bret - if only that were so
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bret :x
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tantek the semweb stuff has been ugly politically for quite some time
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tantek danbri - indeed, have also seen statements like "microdata is simpler than microformats" - without any evidence substantiating it (examples etc.)
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danbri and http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/one-big-happy-family/ was presented alongside tom morris
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danbri simplicity isn't simple
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tantek no it isn't
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danbri most things i see from you on the topic of rdf are pretty critical of it
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tantek danbri - do you have an HTML version of that slide deck? I've grown allergic to PDF/PPT about web tech
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tantek danbri - true - like many things, I see it as more complex than necessary to actually handle real world use-cases.
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tantek anything with namespaces for data (including XML etc.) has this problem
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danbri I have keynote and didn't like it's other saveAs options, sorry ... not proud of the format choice there
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bret i would say my first semweb experience last week was pretty political… the activity streams people were not happy with schema.org
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tantek bret - yeah that was pretty ugly
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bret I didn't understand his answer about not using a more familiar license
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danbri is OWF less dead than PoCo?
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tantek schema-org claims to be about unifying existing disparate/divergent conversations/vocabularies, but even where there is existing convergence/communities (vCard/VCARDDAV, activities/ActivityStreams), schema-org still decides to fork/reinvent.
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tantek danbri - apples and oranges
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tantek licenses != formats
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danbri the person schema.org vocab dates from before i got involved
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bret In my measly experience is more about making confusing documentation :/
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bret it is*
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tantek danbri - not pinning any problems with schema-org on you, to be clear
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tantek all the problems I know of pre-date your involvement
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danbri thanks
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tantek happy to clarify that as often as necessary
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tantek you've at least tried to bring people together on the public-vocabs list, and for that I'm grateful
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bret Like, it was unclear why I need to scope my website as a website in MD? Isn
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bret t that assumed?
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danbri there are ways in which schema.org is closer to microformats than most earlier RDF work - e.g. caring more about publisher simplicity (whether or not that is achieved is another matter)
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tantek bret - you asked for CC0, Guha, claimed they already do CC-BY which is more liberal (which is actually not true). my guess is he's just not familiar with CC0 (presuming ignorance in this case rather than malevolence)
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tantek danbri - agreed.
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danbri there are ways in which microdata learns from both rdfa and microformats (without framing either as obsoleted)
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tantek the hot debate about property vs. rel in RDFa was quite informative
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bret i don't know much about CC0 other than it is used on a few common things, someone else prob should have asked the question
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tantek bret - it's ok, it was a good question
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danbri and there are ways in which microformats-2 moved closer to things RDF long cared about, like a common entity/property/value data model beyond the markup
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tantek CC0 is where modern standards licensing is at. it used to be CC-BY a few years ago.
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tantek danbri - well, arguably closer to microdata than RDF
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tantek and we're (re)learning the property vs. rel problem too
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tantek and lesson
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danbri which was Hixie's reworking of RDFa
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tantek sort of
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tantek I don't think he ever claimed to fully rework RDFa
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danbri so the fact is there are respectable amounts of all these things out there
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tantek but rather come up with something microformats-like, but more generic, that handled the use-cases provided by RDFa-advocates
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tantek danbri - this is an example of the kind of exaggeration I speak of
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danbri So http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019681.html sort of dismantles RDFa and rebuilds it in a more HTML-friendly way
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tantek you saying "Hixie's reworking of RDFa" I view as an inaccurate exaggeration (of the relevance/influence of RDFa)
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tantek "dismantles RDFa" is also inaccurate (perhaps your reading into it)
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tantek because all he did there were list use-cases presented to him, without any specific tech being referenced
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tantek someone else might have dismantled RDFa
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tantek but Hixie certainly didn't
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tantek and claiming he did is false
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danbri I always thought it was quite well positioned between the two works
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danbri and thought it quite funny-tragic that you more or less embraced it, while RDFa enthusiasts were filled with outrage and denounced it
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tantek danbri - right. that's another instance (
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tantek "filled with outrage") of the kind of general reactions I speak of
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tantek RDFa advocates worked hard to try to get RDFa *required* in XHTML2
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tantek and when that ship sank
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tantek they tried the same approach with HTML5
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tantek political adoption rather than independent market success
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tantek bundling rather than modularity
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tantek speaks to a lack of self-confidence in the technology
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danbri it's 11.30pm here, can we pause the complaining about my friends for a bit?
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danbri otherwise i'll have this stuff bouncing around my head when i'm going to sleep, which is no fun
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danbri happy to pick this up next time I'm in bay area
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tantek ok danbri let's switch the topic to something more positive then, and we can continue discussions/citations of misbehavior later
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tantek have you tried adding any microformats2 to your own site?
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danbri not yet
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bret it takes ~6 minutes
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bret assuming you can get to your templates
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tantek bret - you made a particularly poignant statement about how long it took you to rip out microdata vs. add microformats2 earlier - was that in IRC or on your site?
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tantek (during osfw3c workshop)
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bret that was IRC, i wanted to reblog it though
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bret burried in colloquy logs
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bret And yes, its fair to count the community help I received as part of the the ease of adoption
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tantek edited /microformats2 (+200) "/* v2 vocab to-do */ analyze how well microformats2 satisfies the use-cases used to design/create microdata" (view diff)
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danbri if I make some microformats2 hacking time, it'll more likely be with parser code and content from others' sites
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danbri closer to dayjob concerns
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tantek danbri if you change your Twitter link on your danbri.org home page to use https you should have enough setup to use danbri.org with IndieAuth (and thus login to the #indiewebcamp wiki)
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danbri done
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danbri is this relmeauth revisited?
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danbri i tried some code for that a year or so back but couldn't get it running
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tantek danbri - it's the best implementation of relmeauth to date
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tantek and in the past couple of weeks, aaronpk has figured out how to federate IndieAuth (which was based on relmeauth)
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bret here is the working spec https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth
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bret errrr
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bret wait
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bret https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-spec
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bret tantek: http://bret.io/2013/08/12/t1/
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tantek bret - http://spec.indieauth.com/
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bret ill probably write a little more some day
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bret as it was one of those things that was difficult to figure out what to do just by googling… came down to trying stuff and talking to people
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tantek bret - good to know
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tantek I do think community makes all the difference
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tantek and there's no community around microdata / schema.
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bret yeah, no way
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tantek (typical with top down corporate things)
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bret i found one website with some sampls
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bret samples
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bret and it was difficult to look at the schema.org vocabulary wall, and understand where to start
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bret this one http://schema.org/docs/full.html
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tantek yeah - that's a bit of a mess
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tantek talk about overdesigned. sheesh.
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bret this is my favorite
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bret http://schema.org/WebPage
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tantek sigh
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aaronpk quantify all the things!
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Loqi QUANTIFY ALL THE THINGS http://loqi.me/7mj
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