#microformats 2013-09-15

2013-09-15 UTC
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[Home Mortgages: Top Tips To Get You The Best Deal]]": block spam [create=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[Deer Antler Spray Review]]": block spam [create=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[Home Cash Package Online]]": block spam [create=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /microformats2-parsing-issues (+405) "resolve type attribute issue/request"
(view diff)
#
tantek
tommorris, I've updated microformats2 parsing and issues pages a bunch from today's discussions. Still have to incorporate full etherpad into event wiki page.
#
tantek
off to bed for now
#
@t
Excellent #microformats2 parsing meetup brunch with @glennjones @adactio @tommorris. Issues resolved. On wiki tomorrow (ttk.me t4S25)
(twitter.com/_/status/379048585582874624)
colares joined the channel
#
ezldtlcz
edited /User:ezldtlcz (+3424) "/* SÃ¥dan fungerer de politiske partier */ new section"
(view diff)
nonge joined the channel
#
@OnTheWebz
RT @t: Excellent #microformats2 parsing meetup brunch with @glennjones @adactio @tommorris. Issues resolved. On wiki tomorrow (ttk.me t4S25)
(twitter.com/_/status/379144950945820673)
Soopaman, tobyink and gjones joined the channel
gjones, chiui and eschnou joined the channel
#
tommorris
hey gjones - good to see you yesterday. am working on the Ruby implementation at the moment.
#
gjones
yes it was good to catch up, hoping to get some work upgrading my parsers to tomorrow
#
tommorris
just adding rels and alternates to existing Ruby parser
#
gjones
its going to be so good to have a fuller spread of parsers in different languages
#
tommorris
indeed. nice thing with the Ruby one is they've done the hard work, they've just got lots of fiddly things to fix
#
@tommorris
Doing some open sourcery: adding new code to the Ruby microformats2 parser, after helping with amending t... http://tommorris.org/posts/8551
(twitter.com/_/status/379193074598952961)
charl and tantek joined the channel
#
tommorris
hey tantek
#
tommorris
https://github.com/G5/microformats2/pull/12 ← just submitted rels/alternates support to the Ruby microformats2 parser
#
tantek
tommorris - great!
#
tantek
if you see jlsuttles around - say hi
#
tommorris
am going to have a go at Pigeon-related stuff this afternoon
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[Category:public domain license]]": protect due to vandalism [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[SEO]]": protect due to vandalism [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[semantic HTML]]": protect due to vandalism [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
benward - we really need your help with upgrading the MediaWiki install on the microformats wiki.
#
tantek
The Localsettings.php anti-spam measures are just not working since the MediaWiki version is too old.
#
tantek
benward if you get stuck with odd breakages while upgrading, please ping tommorris and maybe he can help find answers.
tobyink joined the channel
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[events-2006]]": protect due to vandalism - historical page [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[events-2008]]": protect due to vandalism - historical page [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[events-2007]]": protect due to vandalism - historical page [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[events-2009]]": protect due to vandalism - historical page [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[events-2010]]": protect due to vandalism - historical page [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[events-2011]]": protect due to vandalism - historical page [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[events-2012]]": protect due to vandalism - historical page [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[h-card]]": protect due to vandalism [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[microformats2-parsing]]": protect due to vandalism - spec [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[JSON]]": protect due to vandalism - redirect [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[cite]]": protect due to vandalism - redirect [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
colares and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek
tommorris - I think we've undone all the damage from last night / this morning.
#
tantek
still annoyed that none of the LocalSettings.php settings seem to be working to stop this kind of thing :/
#
tantek
tommorris - can you suggest a re-ordering/reprioritizing of the items here http://microformats.org/wiki/admin-to-do#wiki in order of easiest to attempt / greatest chance at reducing spam/vandalism?
#
tantek
what's weird about the LocalSettings stuff is that *some* of it works (e.g. blocking new users from moving pages)
adactio joined the channel
#
tantek
but some doesn't (e.g. blocking new users from creating pages)
#
tantek
welcome adactio
#
adactio
adactio: yes, very handy.
#
tommorris
tantek: installing AbuseFilter would be very helpful
#
tantek
tommorris - can you update http://microformats.org/wiki/admin-to-do#spam_fighting accordingly? is that the best thing to do? how do we install it? etc.?
#
tantek
could really use your input on all the wiki improvement suggestions there
#
tommorris
edited /admin-to-do (+239) "/* spam fighting */ abusefilter"
(view diff)
#
tommorris
tantek: I'm going to set up a test account without admin rights on to see if autoconfirmed works
#
tantek
thanks tommorris - just sent an email to you and fellow admins with a call for help
#
tommorris
yeah, just saw
#
tommorris
tantek: LocalSettings change - to make the autoconfirmed work, you need to ensure createpage is false for * too - see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Preventing_access#Restrict_page_creation
#
tommorris
one little change should do it. ;)
#
tommorris
if you can do that, I'll add some UI text and so on to explain to users why they can't create pages
jschweinsberg joined the channel
#
tommorris
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[Microformats Wiki:Administrators]]": redirect shouldn't need to change [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tommorris
edited /Special:Log/protect () "protected "[[Microformats Wiki:Bureaucrats]]": redirect shouldn't need to change [edit=sysop:move=sysop]"
(view diff)
#
tantek
tommorris - should I do the * thing for move movefile also?
#
tantek
going to do that assuming what's true for createpage is true for those too
#
tantek
also doing for wgRateLimits
#
tantek
e.g. $wgRateLimits['edit']['*'] = array( 2, 900 );
#
tantek
edited /admin-to-do (+150) "improve home page"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /admin-to-do (+183) "rel canonical sounds good for redirects"
(view diff)
#
tommorris
yeah, move file too
#
tantek
edited /admin-to-do (+169) "reprocess old items"
(view diff)
#
tantek
tommorris - ok done
#
tantek
for move, movefile, and ratelimits
#
tantek
and I just made 3 quick edits to make sure I didn't screw up ratelimits for registered users (or at least admins :) )
#
tantek
I'm off to go boulder to work out wiki-frustrations
#
tantek
you have the con
#
tommorris
newbs can't create pages
#
tommorris
edited /html-stripping-examples (+1482) "adding AntiSamy Project"
(view diff)
#
tommorris
edited /admin-to-do (+271) "/* spam fighting */ resp"
(view diff)
colares_ and Soopaman joined the channel
#
tommorris
edited /MediaWiki:Noarticletext (+143) "copying in default"
(view diff)
#
tommorris
edited /MediaWiki:Noarticletext (+275) "put in a notice about new users not being able to create pages"
(view diff)
adactio, romainneutron, shaners, barnabywalters, tobyink and tantek joined the channel
#
tommorris
so, you can put microformats inside SVG. https://gist.github.com/anonymous/6573807
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
tommorris
hey barnabywalters
#
tommorris
and also, your PHP parser handles uf2-in-SVG. congratulations. ;)
#
barnabywalters
good evening tommorris
#
barnabywalters
ooh, weird issue. I can probably fix that by just creating new stdclass instead of array if there aren’t any rel values
#
barnabywalters
yeah, it should handle any XML-compatible markup :)
tantek and adactio joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
tommorris: closed, thanks :)
#
tommorris
I'm going to look into RDFa and microdata and whether they can be snuck into SVG-in-HTML at some point
#
barnabywalters
tommorris: why shouldn’t they be? or are all the various new properties not valid SVG?
#
tommorris
not sure, need to investigate and try parsers and so on
#
tommorris
also, the changes tantek made to the wiki earlier seem to be working. no spam!
#
tantek
tommorris - I've noticed no spam since the changes
#
barnabywalters
thanks tantek
#
tommorris
touch wood, pray to the gods of the Pantheon, stand on one leg and refer to it only as "the Scottish play"
#
barnabywalters
tommorris: http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2 now running latest version, with correct empty rels behaviour
#
tommorris
cool. :)
#
barnabywalters
so, were the parser discussions and resolutions documented somewhere? I could do with some work to do on 5 hour coach trip tomorrow
#
barnabywalters
edited /html-stripping-examples (+633) "added HTMLPurifier"
(view diff)
#
tantek
barnabywalters - yes - they're all documented in the Etherpad right now
#
tantek
and have not quite made it to the wiki - I'm working on that
#
tantek
but the wiki does have some additional resolutions
#
tantek
and I've been making edits to microformats2-parsing along the way
#
barnabywalters
tantek: I have a fix for microformats2-parsing but can’t edit. is it locked?
#
tantek
barnabywalters - yeah sorry about that
#
tantek
ok I'll unprotect it optimistically since it seems like we stopped a bunch of the spam
#
tantek
what's the fix?
#
barnabywalters
“HTML: The Good Parts” — lol
#
tantek
edited /Special:Log/protect () "changed protection level for "[[microformats2-parsing]]": allow registered users [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed]"
(view diff)
#
barnabywalters
the “start with this structure” doesn’t have an alternates key: []
#
tommorris
oh, we have edit:autoconfirmed now. that's semi-protection in WP speak
#
barnabywalters
edited /microformats2-parsing (+38) "/* parse a document for microformats */ added alternates key to starting structure"
(view diff)
#
tantek
edited /microformats2-parsing (+0) "putting alternates last, as that's where it belongs"
(view diff)
#
barnabywalters
edited /microformats2-parsing (-85) "/* parse a hyperlink element for rel microformats */ removed redundant array creation instructions"
(view diff)
#
tantek
it's ok - we can leave pages protected until people ask to edit them
#
tommorris
it'd be helpful if people could have a look through that and see if there's anything that needs unprotecting
#
tantek
hey barnabywalters - is it easier to always have the alternates key there?
#
tantek
I mean, I see now what you suggested, but what was wrong with leaving it create-on-need only?
#
tommorris
we could probably also delete the pages that we created to protect them from spam.
#
barnabywalters
tantek: this way is cleaner — it also means clients can always count on there being an alternates key
#
barnabywalters
less work for parsers, less work for consumers
#
tantek
tommorris - most of those were just redirects to our "seo" page
#
tantek
which is fine
#
tantek
barnabywalters - few consumers (if any so far?) care about "alternates"
#
tantek
I prefer keeping things simpler for the common use-cases and consumers
#
tantek
barnabywalters - there are no clients currently that look for alternates
#
tantek
so you're optimizing for a 0 case
#
barnabywalters
tantek: how does always having an alternates key complicate things?
#
barnabywalters
I’m optimising for consistency
#
tantek
it makes the result messier by default
#
tantek
the usual thing you'll see there is just a bunch of style sheets
#
barnabywalters
? stylesheets shouldn’t be in alternates
#
tantek
which are not useful to anyone
#
tantek
oh sorry - alternate stylesheets - yeah - that's not that common
#
tommorris
why would a stylesheet be rel="alternate"?
#
tantek
tommorris - it's in HTML4
#
tantek
google "alternate stylesheets"
#
tommorris
wow. I didn't know about that.
#
tommorris
are any browsers supporting it *now*?
#
tommorris
the w3.org post was written 2001-017.
#
barnabywalters
hm, interesting
#
tantek
tommorris - I implemented a bookmarklet/favelet implementation of "alternate stylesheet" in the early 2000s
#
tantek
anyway
#
tantek
what use is an empty "alternates" key?
#
tommorris
goes and reads what HTML5 has done with it
#
tantek
it looks like noise
#
tantek
and it begs the question of what if anything should go into it
#
tantek
which will do nothing but waste developers' time
#
tantek
having it not be there in the first place in the very common cases is the cleaner (less noise) solution
#
tantek
we have indieweb use-cases for items, and for rels, that's why they're there by default
#
tantek
we DO NOT have indieweb use-cases for alternates, which is why it should be empty by default
#
tantek
no use-cases, no key by default
#
tommorris
seems reasonable
#
barnabywalters
ATOM feed discovery for BC if people aren’t marking up content with h-entry
#
barnabywalters
means you can parse a page once, if no h-entry found then look in alternates for a dry-violating feed
#
tommorris
the Ruby library code I wrote today only shows alternates if not empty
shaners joined the channel
#
tommorris
Ah, §4.12.5.11 of HTML5 sez: "If the alternate keyword is also specified on the link element, then the link is an alternative stylesheet
#
tommorris
in this case, the title attribute must be specified on the link element, with a non-empty value."
#
tantek
no indieweb site cares about ATOM feed discovery
#
tantek
and feed-only readers are dying
#
tantek
so they're effectively a negative use-case
#
barnabywalters
fair enough
#
tantek
if you undo the edits, I'll write up the design reasoning
#
tantek
I have a feeling this may come up again
#
tantek
and it will be helpful to indicate exactly why we made this decision
#
barnabywalters
personally I find inconsistencies like this really confusing when consuming this sort of data, but I’ll admit I haven’t come up against it in this particular instance
#
tommorris
edited /html-stripping-examples (+1428) "adding django-bleach"
(view diff)
#
tantek
barnabywalters - but you're not consuming alternates, so you won't see any inconsistency
#
tantek
edited /microformats2-parsing (+83) "create top level "alternates" area when needed"
(view diff)
#
barnabywalters
okay, http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/ now running latest version which doesn’t include alternates key if not necessary