#microformats 2013-09-27

2013-09-27 UTC
tantek, singpolyma and DanC joined the channel
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DanC checks in on http://microformats.org/wiki/citation
singpolyma joined the channel
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DanC "how to markup citations in an article on the web that refers to other articles on the web" er... a/@href solves that problem, no?
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DanC I'd think the purpose of a citation is to provide redundancy when the normal sub-second dns/http links aren't doing so hot.
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DanC and to allow for citations in one style to be reformatted in another
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DanC and to indicate endorsement. "this paper was accepted at conference X" or "journal Y".
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DanC those would need to be refined
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DanC they're not problem statements as such.
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DanC the specific problem that brings me here today is: I have a mix of traditional academic literature and misc. web pages that I want to cite from a grant proposal
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DanC I'm not the primary author of the grant proposal.
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DanC Zotero does great with MS Word integration and such, once you get the citations in there...
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DanC but its browser plugins are kinda picky about what they'll grab and add to the Zotero DB
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DanC whereas diigo will let me capture anything, down to a free-text note that isn't even on the web yet...
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DanC ... but in diigo, even when the web page I'm bookmarking is part of the traditional academic literature, the tool doesn't know how to pick out the author, title, conference/journal, etc. for formatting as MLA etc.
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DanC my previous problem in this area was: a consulting client asked for a bibliography of all my publications in the last 10 years
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DanC Zotero was nearly perfect for that one.
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DanC Zotero has both a web UI and a windows/mac/linux desktop UI. I wonder how they develop the latter. Its UI is richer.
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DanC these days, with GWT and such, it's pretty straightforward to get parity.
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DanC e.g. RStudio and RStudio server
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DanC seems to be drafting a blog article
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DanC presumes nobody minds, since nobody else is saying anything
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DanC fwiw, result of said 10 yr bibliography exercise: https://www.zotero.org/connolly/cv
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DanC oh: another goal: structure-preserving copy-and-paste of citations (and lists of citations)
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DanC e.g. from Zotero to my linkedin profile
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DanC one dirt simple design: Zotero adds to its list of many formatting options a simple tab-separated-values format.
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tantek scrolls up to DanC chatting to the ether
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DanC then I copy-and-paste that to linked, which has some level of agreement with Zotero on column names
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DanC linkedin
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tantek DanC - you're looking for this: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite
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DanC well, I found that. that's where the "how to markup citations in an article on the web..." quote comes from
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tantek ah great - let me see if I can add an FAQ for your rhetorical question :)
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DanC updates to traditional citation guides (MLA, Chicago, ...) all seem to recommend citing web pages by when you accessed them. seems to me the normal rss/atom published/revised dates are much more relevant
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DanC we don't cite books by when we read them
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DanC interesting what has evolved in the wikipedia community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_templates . lots of how and very little why
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tantek edited /h-cite (+886) "add FAQ with question from DanC" (view diff)
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tantek DanC the problem with rss/atom published/revised dates for citations is that they're simply self-asserted by the publisher
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DanC same with books and such
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tantek books are different because a. they don't change once printed and b. there are many copies
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DanC in both cases, you can, with various degrees of confidence, confirm from other sources the date of last revision
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tantek yes, in both cases (web articles and books) the published date is reported as self-asserted by the publisher
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tantek and it's not just wikipedia that has adopted "date accessed"
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tantek other citation guidelines recommend it as well
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tantek so we are simply paving the footpaths here
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DanC I know. much to my bewilderment
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tantek first FAQ: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite#Why_not_just_a_href
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DanC I don't really see how marking up name/date/etc. contributes to solving the problem as stated. hmm.
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DanC nor is it clear that "see also" links are disjoint with citations
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tantek rather it's not clear that "see also" links ever mean "citation"
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tantek the burden of proof is to assert that they are
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DanC maybe I just don't understand the problem statement. Can you give me a more concrete instantiation of it? Or a community who often comes across it?
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tantek in the simplest form, marking up name/date etc. allow for processing of web citations into whatever "style" or "format" the user wishes to publish them (MLA vs APA etc.)
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DanC ah. ok. I agree that capturing this semantic so it can be formatted different ways is a problem worth solving.
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DanC formatted, queried, sorted, organized, etc.
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tantek yeah
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tantek that's a worthy faq
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DanC seems to me it's a better problem statement. But I haven't finished swapping in all the recent work.
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DanC really should head out. hmm.
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tantek edited /h-cite (+294) "/* FAQ */ add Why" (view diff)
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DanC I'm about this close >< to opening up emacs to start coding on a tool to go from Zotero to diigo or the other way, using h-cite in the middle.
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tantek DanC - http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite#Why :)
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tantek indeed - I think tommorris has been discussing doing something similar
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tantek using h-cite as an intermediary format
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tantek whichever piece you end up building, it is likely useful
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tantek either producing h-cite form some other format
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tantek or consuming h-cite and producing whatever output you wish for your own purposes
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DanC wierd... how do i get from the revision Loqui cited a minute ago to the un-versioned page?
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tantek click History and then click Page :)
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DanC hopes you're not proud of that
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DanC er... now the page has 2 problem statements. One under #Why and one under Focus
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DanC I'd be happy if the one under Focus went away. Or if the page explictly said how they relate. As is, it looks like a merge conflict gone bad ;-)
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tantek Focus is more of a scoping than a problem statement
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DanC "solve the specific problem of" sure looks like a problem statement
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DanC heads out, hoping to return to the topic before too long
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DanC nice chatting with you, tantek
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tantek yes the FAQ should come before that
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tantek edited /h-cite (+1) "put FAQ before Design Principles / History" (view diff)
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tantek DanC - when you're looking at parsing h-cite to generate something else, check out the microformats2 open source parsers: http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers#microformats2_parsers
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tantek in particular php-mf2 is quite good, well tested, good test suite etc. https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 55 minutes ago: not sure what you mean. right place for what? what research? context? (re: your link to accessibility-examples)
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