#microformats 2015-02-18

2015-02-18 UTC
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jcarver edited /job-listing-examples (+1) "url typo fix" (view diff)
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@scarlettxstitch Raging myself after ordering £20 worth of embroidery threads from Sew&So only to remember I have £20 on my @Hobbycraft Hcard 😢 (twitter.com/_/status/567868994813829120)
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tantek edited /hcard-brainstorming (+111) "/* Post vCard 3 additions */ note section out of date" (view diff)
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acegiak tantek: so which heading SHOULD i be proposing new fields under?
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tantek acegiak - the page I thought existed doesn't - fixing now :)
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Loqi tantek: pfefferle left you a message on 2/16 at 2:47am: someone at the channel asked… I only forwarded it to you… I think it was because of better discovery…
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Loqi tantek: pfefferle left you a message on 2/16 at 3:42am: the discussion depending the profile-uris http://logs.glob.uno/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=6+Feb+2015&e=6+Feb+2015
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acegiak ok lol
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tantek edited /h-card (+251) "additions - h-card-brainstorming" (view diff)
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tantek acegiak: page is there now :) http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card-brainstorming
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acegiak edited /h-card-brainstorming (+373) "adding preferred pronouns proposal" (view diff)
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acegiak tantek: imbad at wikis but its there now in some form
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tantek acegiak - no problem at all - adding some text content is the key
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tantek edited /h-card-brainstorming (+349) "/* Preferred Pronouns */ code formatting, provide alternative singular thinking of separate pronouns, note use of -x- for experimental properties" (view diff)
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tantek edited /h-card-brainstorming (+8) "explicit TOC" (view diff)
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tantek acegiak: looks good. expanded a bit: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card-brainstorming#Preferred_Pronouns
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tantek also, for experimenting with properties, we use -x- as a prefix
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tantek if you're going to keep the concept of p-pronouns, please use p-x-pronouns for the class name
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acegiak can do!
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tantek thank you for contributing this to the wiki
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tantek I have a vague feeling that I've seen some sort of pronoun preference on another site before
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tantek perhaps Flickr?
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acegiak ill update to the three separate fields model once im back home
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acegiak its more useful to parsers
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tantek and that point (the three separate fields) you'll need to talk to some folks who are more experts in language/linguistics to see if there are commonalities across languages of types or pronouns
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tjgillies Im kinda at a loss what to markup software as in microformats2. For example I'm making a link to microformats wiki but its not a person or organization so i'm hesitant to use h-card, and it's not really a tangible product so I'm hesitant to use h-product
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tjgillies ah
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tantek "at a loss" usually means don't bother to mark it up with anything more
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tjgillies h-item looks promising
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tantek though asking is a good approach!
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tantek h-item on its own is not really useful
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tantek that's kind of the point
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tjgillies tantek: I must semantically define all the things.
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tantek every element is potetially an items of some sort
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tantek tjgillies: semantic definitions absent use-cases lead to useless abstractions
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tantek be lazier ;)
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tjgillies tantek: I am obsessed with useless abstractions, thats why it's going on my personal site in the first place ;)
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tantek oh dear
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tjgillies I'm trying to get a nice rendering of my site as json with microformats2 parser
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tjgillies I want it to include all salient links
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tantek hah - be sure to use -x- for anything experimental!
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tantek or if you just want to express custom properties yourself
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tantek you can also use a "vendor" prefix
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tantek e.g. your irc nick
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tjgillies class="vendor:tjgillies-foo"?
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tantek e.g. p-tjgillies-…
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tjgillies ah
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tantek like vendor prefixes in CSS
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tjgillies I don't know that much css. I stay away from that hell
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tantek similarly for h-tjgillies-*
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tjgillies woo
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tjgillies the parser parsed my custom class
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tjgillies does a happy dance
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tjgillies tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 151 karma
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tantek yay!
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Loqi woot
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tantek glad it worked tjgillies
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tantek microformats2 extensibility for experimentation FTW!
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tjgillies there is now h-tjgillies-mbti muhahahaha
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tjgillies apropos: http://www.16personalities.com/intp-personality
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tjgillies in case anyone is curious
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tantek tjgillies: love it - experimenting with your own site and markup!
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tantek tjgillies++
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Loqi tjgillies has 13 karma
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tjgillies is rel=me for things that I own or things related to me?
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tjgillies like should I use rel=me for my company site
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tjgillies ah http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
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acegiak edited /h-card-brainstorming (-250) (view diff)
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tantek tjgillies: rel=me is for other representations of *you*
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tantek not for things (whether you own or related to you)
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tantek I mean, unless you say a car you own is "you"
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tantek ;)
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tjgillies we are one, therefore all is rel=me
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tjgillies heh
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acegiak tjgillies: rel="mine" ?
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tjgillies acegiak: sure. Can we just add any value we want or is it good form to stay within the values listed on the wiki?
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acegiak im just throwing things around
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tjgillies that tends to be dangerous ;)
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tantek acegiak: except rel values are nouns - so you'd be saying that the destination of that link is a "mine" of you
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tantek which would only really make sense if you were a mountain or a hillside
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acegiak tantek: my initial research on pronouns suggests that having p-pronoun-[pronoun form] should work pretty well cross language?
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tantek acegiak: neat! can you document some URLs from your research accordingly in that section?
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tantek oh I was going to check mediawiki
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tantek tommorris would know
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tantek if mediawiki has a pronoun preference somewhere
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acegiak tantek: ive just read the wikipedia article :P
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tantek aha
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tantek acegiak: good enough! link to it
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Special:Preferences has
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tantek How do you prefer to be described?
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tantek (*) (I prefer not to say)
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tantek ( ) She edits wiki pages
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tjgillies microformat all the things! http://note.io/1BkWDIO
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tantek ( ) He edits wiki pages
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tantek goodness!
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acegiak edited /h-card-brainstorming (+131) (view diff)
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tantek edited /h-card-brainstorming (+350) "/* Preferred Pronouns */ Pronouns Prior Art / Mediawiki" (view diff)
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acegiak link added
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tantek research added
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tantek edited /h-card-brainstorming (+6) "/* Preferred Pronouns */ linebreaks added for readability" (view diff)
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tjgillies should vendored classes be kabob-case or camelCase?
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tjgillies like class="h-tjgillies-irc-network" or class="h-tjgillies-ircNetwork"
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tantek haha never heard of kabob-case before that's amazing but yes that
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tantek tjgillies: I believe I wrote a blog post somewhere about why you should always use lowercase letters in class names
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tjgillies ok. thanks
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tantek it might be more than 10 years old
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tantek http://tantek.com/log/2002/12.html#atoc_csensitivity
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tjgillies tantek: thanks
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pfefferle good morning
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tommorris tantek: MediaWiki does have pronoun preferences. there is the ability in templates to use the user’s stated gendered pronoun preference. also, on WP, I have a JS gadget that shows me the user’s stated gender using the ♀ and ♂ symbols.
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tommorris tantek: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T61643
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tommorris edited /gender-examples (+224) "adding MediaWiki" (view diff)
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tommorris tantek: ^^ documented
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LindsayMac I have a quick question if anyone is around. I am looking at using microdata or microformats for my events website I am creating. \
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LindsayMac for microformats do I have to wrap the whole list of events in some type of scoper the way I would with mircodata ?
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tantek welcom LindsayMac!
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tantek no need to wrap the list for microformats
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tantek you can just markup each one as an h-event
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tantek and microformats are a lot less markup than microdata
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LindsayMac tantek: yea I am seeing that
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LindsayMac is there any pit falls or cons to using microformats over microdata?
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tantek LindsayMac not that I know of
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tantek a few folks for some reason prefer to use to 4 or so *different* microdata attributes, instead of simple microformats class names because of some odd bias against the class attribute
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tantek but that's the only "complaint" I've heard so far
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LindsayMac hm ok..
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tantek and it seem a matter of opinion / taste - not functionality
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LindsayMac in terms of it's use among search engines... they all kind of view and weigh them similarly?
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tantek in all other ways, microformats are easier (less to learn), faster (less markup to add)
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tantek yes, search engines treat such data the same no matter what syntax they get it from
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LindsayMac awesome....
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tantek though I think they tend to prefer visible markup (microformats / microdata / RDFa in the body) over *invisible* meta tags (e.g. OGP, Twitter Cards, Dubline Core)
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tantek because invisible meta tags lie and rot more often
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LindsayMac yea that makes sense.
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tantek like meta keywords is pretty much useless
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LindsayMac yea that I know.. thats kind of why i hae been keeping an eye on microformats/microdata but havent really had a great project to start it on. This event manager, however, is pretty perfect
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LindsayMac hEvent seems to be a new one though.. right?
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LindsayMac "still in draft"
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tantek the microformats 'drafts' are actually quite well established
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tantek and supported / used
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LindsayMac ok good
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tantek we just tend to be a bit conservative about calling something a 'standard' :)
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LindsayMac so hCalendar has mostly been replaced with hEvents?
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tantek the best thing to use is http://microformats.org/wiki/h-event
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LindsayMac k.. thats where I was going with it
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tantek and it says how to also include the hCalendar class names for backward compat if you want: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-event#Publisher_Compatibility
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tantek which, frankly, even if you do include both h-event and the hCalendar class names, it's *still* less work and smaller than microdata
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tantek :)
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tantek g2g breakfast, bbiab.
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LindsayMac and I dont have to put anything in my header
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LindsayMac to tell it to use events / etc
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LindsayMac ok
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tantek no - zero <head> / header / metacrap :)
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LindsayMac awesome
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LindsayMac this should go quickly in this case
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LindsayMac I am a but confused on the "duration" option for hevents... are they looking fro how many hours the event lasts or how many days it repeats?
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LindsayMac if I have my events grouped by DATE where the container has the date for the event, how can I pass that to my events within that group without actually having to display it?
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LindsayMac my structure is something like this: https://gist.github.com/Lindsayanng/2c282d97e1ee388b41d4
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LindsayMac I would have thought that the addition of datetime="2013-06-30 12:00" to my HTML element would make it ignore what is between the tags and read the machine readable version better?
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LindsayMac but it seems to be ignoring that
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kylewm LindsayMac: are you using https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/time ?
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LindsayMac kylewm: yes
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tantek back
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LindsayMac well.. i tried it.. not in that example but i tried it with time and didnt see a difference in how it was reading it
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tantek LindsayMac: duration does tend to confuse people, and people rarely publish events by "duration". more often just start and end times, so mark those up and you're good. ignore duration unless you're explicitly already publishing it visibly.
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LindsayMac maybe I need to re-test that
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kylewm <time class="dt-start" datetime="2013-06-30 12:00">12:00</time> should work
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tantek LindsayMac: you say "how it was reading it" <-- what are the "its" in that sentence?
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LindsayMac https://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/
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tantek and kylewm is correct - the <time> element was specifically designed for that
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tantek huh - I know for a fact that php-mf2 supports the time element so that is odd
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LindsayMac Im going to retest
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LindsayMac can you take a look and tell me whats wrong? https://gist.github.com/Lindsayanng/d6168d18f17f1f3a2ccc
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LindsayMac i mean, I test it and all i get is 1200
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LindsayMac =OMG
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LindsayMac TYPO!
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LindsayMac stupid.. I added date-time instead of datetime
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LindsayMac it is kind of hurting my head how much this is complicating my otherwise clean markup.. i couldnt imagine if i went withmicrodata instead
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LindsayMac one last question for today.. the h-event ... can it also be hevent?? or does it NEED the dash in the class name to trigger it to be read as a microformat?
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kylewm LindsayMac: I believe you are running up against the difference between microformats1 and microformats2
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kylewm it needs to have the hyphen to be mf2
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LindsayMac ok got it
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tantek LindsayMac - see the minimal backcompat example here: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-event#Publisher_Compatibility
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tantek for the precise root class names
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tantek i.e. class="h-event vevent"
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tantek and keep asking good questions!
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tantek thanks so much!
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