#microformats 2015-04-25

2015-04-25 UTC
KartikPrabhu and gordonb joined the channel
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+111) "/* rel-tag */ add "urls" example" (view diff)
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+200) "/* xfn */ wiht urls" (view diff)
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+199) "/* rel-enclosure */ add urls example" (view diff)
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (-180) "/* rel-tag */ just the urls mode" (view diff)
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+570) "/* xfn */ multiple values" (view diff)
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+88) "/* more information for rel-based formats */ link to my fork of mf2py" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks - the top level "urls" key is misleading, because they're actually <link> / <a> / <area> elements that you're representing a collection of
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KevinMarks_ what name would you suggest?
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tantek I was going to suggest "links" but that's no better because they could be <a href>s instead of just <link href>s
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tantek "urls" at the top level makes it sound like *all* the URLs in the document are listed there
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tantek which is not true
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tantek hence it's a misleading key
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KevinMarks_ hm
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KevinMarks_ I could make it get all urls
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tantek no that's the wrong methodology - the "could do" methodology, rather than the - "what's the use case?" and minimal design / implementation requirement methodology
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KevinMarks_ rel_urls ?
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KevinMarks_ related_urls ?
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tantek which is why I used "rels" to being with
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tantek s/being/begin
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Loqi tantek meant to say: which is why I used "rels" to begin with
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tantek as the top level key
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KevinMarks_ so are you saying urls should be under rels?
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KevinMarks_ I tried adding more values to each rel entry, but that was a breaking change, and made it complex
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tantek yeah. well, "rel-urls" would be better than "urls" at least.
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KevinMarks_ kylewm, tommorris, aaronpk - are you interested in these changes? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#more_information_for_rel-based_formats
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KevinMarks_ it does get the css etc links as well
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tantek well so does the existing microformats2 parsing spec
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KevinMarks_ where's the stuff about alternates?
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_a_hyperlink_element_for_rel_microformats
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KevinMarks_ currently I'm looking for "media","hreflang","type","title" attrs
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KevinMarks_ shouls I check fro more?
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kylewm I may be interested in it eventually, for following/follower stuff
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kylewm i like organizing by url, i didn't quite understand that that was the suggestion earlier
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KevinMarks_ that wasn't the original one; I found it better when I tried
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KevinMarks_ as it works well for xfn
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tantek KevinMarks - again "should I check for more" is the wrong question. The right question is, "are there any use-cases that need any more?"
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KevinMarks_ that si waht I meant
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tantek rarely how people interpret it
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KevinMarks_ enclosures use type and title, feed etc use title and type
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KevinMarks_ your point about them being a fixed set was well taken
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tantek kevinmarks - the attributes in your design have array values for no reason
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tantek e.g. name: [ Technology ]
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tantek HTML elements can only have a single attribute by a given name
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tantek note how "alternates" is flatter: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_a_hyperlink_element_for_rel_microformats
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KevinMarks_ ah, I followed the name pattern from the rest of mf2
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tantek KevinMarks - the use of "name" there is still wrong
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tantek it's not the same thing as the use of "name" elsewhere in microformats2
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tantek and using the same key to mean two different things is only going to confuse devs
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KevinMarks_ what do you suggest instead?
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tantek go back to the use-case, what precisely do you need, and nothing more?
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KevinMarks_ Name fits well for xfn and fro alternate in the feed case
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tantek you're conflating parsing and semantics incorrectly
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tantek don't do "magic" with the "title" attribute
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KevinMarks_ you're saying it is confusing, I'm saying to plays the same semantic role as name elsewhere in mf2
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tantek just have it be there, along with "type" etc.
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tantek it doesn't because elsewhere in mf2 there's always the opportunity to have an explicit p-name
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tantek and you're conflating innertext and the title attribute and that's no good
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tantek no I retract that - I see the explicit "title" attribute now
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tantek "title": "real title"
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KevinMarks_ I'm not, they are there independently: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#rel-enclosure
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KevinMarks_ right
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tantek also - in the rest of mf2, a p-name can sometimes come from other attributes, e.g. the <img alt>
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KevinMarks_ that's why name worked - feedparser uses "term" and "label for the 2 parts fo tag
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KevinMarks_ not sure where that si from
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tantek we really should just use the DOM terminology here
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KevinMarks_ https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/reference-feed-tags.html
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tantek since that's essentially what we're representing
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KevinMarks_ which would be what, innertext?
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tantek looking it up now...
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KevinMarks_ sizes was mentioned by aaronpk as useful for rel-icon
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tantek yeah - need to write-up the use-case
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KevinMarks_ do we want coords and shape from area ones?
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KevinMarks_ for the person tag case?
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tantek no that doesn't help because rels are global/top level only
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tantek we need to solve that in a microformat h-* object scoped manner
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tantek ok found it
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tantek textContent
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tantek e.g. document.body.textContent
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tantek there - re-use at least
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tantek instead of reinvention
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KevinMarks_ with camelcase?
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tantek https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Node/textContent?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=DOM%2FNode.textContent
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tantek sorry
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tantek https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Node/textContent
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tantek yeah - might as well go with that literally, as camelCase is a JSON convention
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+984) "/* more information for rel-based formats */ list attributes" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ hm, did I mis-nest that
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tantek fixing
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+755) "/* more information for rel-based formats */ add feedback about name, no need for array, urls" (view diff)
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing (+97) "/* parse a hyperlink element for rel microformats */ add title" (view diff)
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+40) "/* feedback on more rel info */ since only one at most" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ see the edit i just made to parsing
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+135) "/* attributes parsed */ don't need coords and shape on rels" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks - yes that looks good
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tantek also wrote up the feedback on your brainstorm a bit - pretty sure I covered the different points http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#feedback_on_more_rel_info
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+232) "/* rel-alternate */" (view diff)
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tantek is there a use-case for textContent on alternates?
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tantek e.g. <link> has no textContent
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KevinMarks_ your example doea
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KevinMarks_ http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#rel_parse_examples
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tantek lol
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KevinMarks_ "French mobile homepage" is useful if offering alternatives
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tantek as does "Mobile homepage"
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KevinMarks_ right - in the same way as it's useful for rel-me
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tantek to show a label
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KevinMarks_ and probably for syndication too
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tantek alright I'm going make that a separate brainstorming item
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KevinMarks_ did you see the mf2 I found in the embbede tweet iframes?
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KevinMarks_ benward is marking them up well
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+69) "move more information for alternates to its own suggestion since it's orthogonal" (view diff)
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing (+270) "/* parse a hyperlink element for rel microformats */" (view diff)
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tantek oops meant to say: move title and add textContent on alternates to proposed
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KevinMarks_ also should link to the brainstorming
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tantek yes
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing (+104) "link to brainstorming for more information for alternates" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks: now that we have interop among parsers, we need to add proposed changes like that explicitly to a proposed section for review by other parser developers
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tantek rather than just edit the spec inline
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tantek also relates to keeping stable things stable - helps / necessary for being able to normatively reference e.g. from W3C drafts
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tantek to keep stable / proposed things clearly delineated
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+101) "/* more information for alternates */ discussion, +1 makes sense" (view diff)
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+33) "/* feedback on more rel info */ discussion" (view diff)
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tantek also since "textContent" is both ugly camelCase, I could live with shortening it to "text".
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kevin marks edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+236) "/* feedback on more rel info */ 'text' not 'textContent'" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ tommorris: did you see the parsing discussion?
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KevinMarks_ http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#more_information_for_rel-based_formats
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KevinMarks_ if tantek's name changes make sense to you too, I'll make them and send you a pull
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tantek KevinMarks - want to update your proposal on the wiki first accordingly?
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tantek I'd rather we have a precise spec update proposal on the wiki we can point to for any pull requests
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tantek so that anyone can verify that the pull request does something according to a proposed spec update
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