#microformats 2016-10-24

2016-10-24 UTC
edsu_, sagerdearia, MeanderingCode, tantek, KevinMarks, KevinMarks_, nitot, Erkan_Yilmaz_, dkm_, bear, KartikPrabhu and willnorris joined the channel
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@APESOL https://indieauth.com - Sign in with your domain name (using the rel-me-auth http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth protocol. (twitter.com/_/status/790591338534297600)
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@ilnnazfier9835 Microformats make you more attractive to women. Or men. Or even dogs. Attractive. Yeah. (twitter.com/_/status/790621434238341121)
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jonnybarnes how should location info thats just an area as oppose to an actual place be marked up? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/706#issuecomment-255851871
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@SEMonline4u #localseo #seo What is microdata & what does it have to do with SEO? http://www.beckseocopywriting.ca/beck-blog/seo/what-are-microformats/ #microdata #SEO https://twitter.com/aimee_beck/status/790646586862960640/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/790646988341739520)
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@marketing_pro1s #Marketing #Facebook What is microdata & what does it have to do with SEO? http://www.beckseocopywriting.ca/beck-blog/seo/what-are-microformats/ #microdata #SEO https://twitter.com/aimee_beck/status/790646586862960640/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/790646727636287490)
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tantek jonnybarnes great question
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tantek the larger challenge is that even the terms like "area" and "place" are so heavily overloaded as to potentially be indistinguishable, and mean different things to different people
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tantek by "just an area" do you mean a literal area? like a polygon?
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tantek by "actual place" do you mean a venue?
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gRegorLove How about the code in the first question http://microformats.org/wiki/h-geo#FAQ
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gRegorLove data-value pattern, then the text can be something more human-friendly
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jonnybarnes basically, “Salford, UK“ doesn’t warrent an h-card does it?
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jonnybarnes so how should it be marked up?
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jonnybarnes gRegorLove: thats what I’m thinking of doing
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jonnybarnes add the co-ords in data tags for machine reading
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jonnybarnes then giving a name for humans derived from a reverse-geo lookup
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gRegorLove You could potentially put the human-readable name in the one data tag and leave the other empty, though maybe that's considered a bad practice
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tantek jonnybarnes, interesting wasy of phrasing the question "doesn’t warrent an h-card" - implying there's a hierarchy (or ordering) of different microformats, from simpler to more extensive
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gRegorLove <data class="p-longitude"...>Salford, UK</data> <data class="p-latitude".../>
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tantek jonnybarnes: fundamentally the "how should it be marked up" question requires a real world example of the location information in plain user visible text, in context, to help determine what a good (least intrusive) method of marking it up would be
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tantek reasoning by abstract example is a poor substitute for that, and often results in abstract markup that works ok in isolation but not in context of real world content / pages
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tantek jonnybarnes, so let's start with, what location information are you displaying on your page? (on what page?)
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jonnybarnes okay, my notes that aren’t checkins but have geo-data simple end with “in {town/city}, {country}”
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tantek like?
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tantek (aside: gRegorLove that h-geo FAQ likely needs updating with the nuances I just pointed out above about context / real world example driven design)
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jonnybarnes I haven‘t pushed the latest makrup to live yet, but here’s my latest note: https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/CB
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jonnybarnes that’s not a checkin to a venue at all
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tantek jonnybarnes - is it plain text? is it a clickable map link? is there an embedding of a map, thumbnail or otherwise?
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jonnybarnes not at the moment
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jonnybarnes its just plain text
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tantek cool - that's an excellent way to start
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jonnybarnes I’m thinking of moving the actual lat/lng values into data tags
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tantek do you have any UX/design-based thoughts about how you may want to evolve it in terms of interactivity?
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jonnybarnes what do they add for a human reading the note?
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jonnybarnes they just look messy
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tantek nevermind the markup thoughts for now - that's plumbing
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tantek UX / interaction thoughts first
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tantek jonnybarnes - a plain text location (named or otherwise) may seem "abstract" to the average reader - they may have no way to relate to it unles they're already familiar with the city/state/country
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jonnybarnes so I also have places, with maps: https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/Bs
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tantek (certainly very few humans relate to lat long #s)
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jonnybarnes the next step with them is to get all the notes also from that place
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tantek a-ha like a location-tag
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jonnybarnes but for general geo info
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jonnybarnes I just want the name of town/city its in
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tantek would clicking on that location text then show a list of all the posts made at that location?
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jonnybarnes not currently, it just gives a brief description of the place
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jonnybarnes but it shouldn’t be too hard to get all the notes also associated with that place
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tantek I understand not currently - hence I'm asking if that's your future thinking
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tantek thinking through design plans like this helps better figure out what kind of markup will best support current and soon design plans
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jonnybarnes getting all my notes in “Salford, UK” would be harder
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tantek I'm confused. Is Salford not a "place"?
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jonnybarnes from the h-adr wiki: “For named addresses, e.g. people or venues, use h-card.”
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jonnybarnes I’d suggest Salford should be marked up with h-adr
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jonnybarnes it is a place, but is it specific enough for h-card
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tantek yes, that's a reasonable conclusion
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tantek but as I noted to gRegorLove, I likely need to update the h-adr documentation to reflect more nuances
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tantek in particular, we've learned a lot about this problem through the indieweb pursuit of figuring out venues in particular
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tantek a venue has a more specific meaning than a "place"
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jonnybarnes I agree
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tantek whether something is specific enough for an h-card is a very good question and I think we're still figuring that out case by case
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jonnybarnes I was thinking of this for my notes that aren’t at venues: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/706#issuecomment-255851871
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tantek as you said / implied, if an h-adr is sufficient that's likely the way to go
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tantek the reason I asked about the display is that when you show a map, you're essentially showing a visual representation of the lat long
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tantek and could even use <object> that way to show the interactive map, with fallback plain text coordinates inside, marked up with microformats properties
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jonnybarnes whos using <object> for a map?
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tantek it should work for embedding anything you would use iframe for
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tantek or img
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tantek and if it doesn't, I want to know about it :)
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tantek how does your site decide to show a map or not for a post? (those two example you gave - CB vs Bs)
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jonnybarnes the one in Salford just has associated latitude/longitude values with the note, that just gets turned into text via nominatim
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jonnybarnes I also have actuak venues at https://jonnybarnes.uk/places
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jonnybarnes I can "attach" them to the note
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tantek with p-location h-card?
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jonnybarnes if so my site adds a map of the venue
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tantek is it an explicit design decision to not add a map of a city/state/country by itself? e.g. coarser? or just an accident of order of implementation?
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jonnybarnes explicit, for a map I can center it to a specific point, Salford has 220,000 residents, where do I center the map?
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jonnybarnes a venue has a specific location to center to
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tantek jonnybarnes - if you zoom out far enough, a city looks like a point as well
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tantek hence a *coarse* map
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tantek so, checkins need a spacetime coordinate
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tantek to indicate the user explicit intent of "I am/was at this location [at this time - autofilled, or past noted]"
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tantek then a checkin could be represented by an h-entry with a "p-checkin" of that spacetime coordinate
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tantek would h-entry p-checkin h-event be too much of a hack?
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tantek where the check-in time is noted as the dt-start of the event?
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tantek (events can already only have a dt-start, dt-end is optional of course)
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aaronpk that would mean the location would be the location of the h-entry?
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tantek is that overkill? the venue ends up being even deeper
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tantek no
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tantek the location of the h-entry is where they were when they published the checkin
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aaronpk oops i meant h-event
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tantek the location of the (p-checkin) is the p-location of the h-event inside
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tantek which itself is thus likely an h-card for a venue
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tantek and is that getting too nesty?
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aaronpk that makes sense, but i'm a little worried that buries it too deep
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tantek h-entry p-checkin h-event p-location h-card
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tantek phew
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aaronpk deeply nested by itself isn't so much a problem as when there are multiple places the data could be
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aaronpk if that's the *only* place a consumer should expect to find the location of the checkin that wouldn't be terrible
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tantek yes that would be the only place
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tantek an alternative would be relying on a collection of tags
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tantek but that's once again imprecise and doesn't indicate user intent of a checkin
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tantek e.g. a person-tag of themselves, a location-tag of the venue, a datetime-tag of time of checkin
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tantek but lots of things could have that set of *-tags
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tantek that aren't necessarily checkins
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tantek e.g. once again, photos
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@jonnybarnes Getting lots of stuff done on my site ?, including much better #microformats markup (https://t.co/XxlHsDgYrI) (twitter.com/_/status/790694034360655872)
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