#microformats 2018-07-10

2018-07-10 UTC
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tantek as you've probably seen, much harder to eliminate after the fact, much easier to attempt to re-use and or design re-usable properties instead
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tantek even exercise posts (as aaronpk) alludes to could use such a "status"
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gRegorLove Yeah, I was thinking `status` is sounding like a possible candidate
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tantek some silos (notably Strava) even provide notifications for someone started an exercise, is currently exercising, finished an exercise
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gRegorLove No consumers for read-status yet, either.
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tantek sorta - if you look up "status" as an english word, it is heavily overloaded and could mean all sorts of things
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tantek e.g. bug status
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tantek new, unconfirmed, open, assigned, resolved, fixed, closed etc.
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tantek simliar words have similar problems e.g. "state"
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tantek good vocabulary design is actually quite challenging / hard, and not something any person can just "do" by trial and error. it helps to do it within a community. helps even more to not create new terms at all, and instead research other formats and re-use existing terms / values. helps even more to get someone with any kind of informatics / informatician / librarian degree to use tools of analysis that they've formally learned.
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tantek i.e. no one (myself included) is "good" at it per se, but we can take steps to reduce the chance of committing known errors
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gRegorLove Sorry if I've jumped too far ahead. I'm wondering what, if anything, I should do with ibc mp posts now to avoid future issues. Add the -x-? Something else?
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tantek e.g. hcard from vcard (zero invention there, other than methodically reformatting as HTML), hcalendar from icalendar etc. hreview took quite some time to iterate, and even then we ended up with something more complex than we now need with h-review.
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gRegorLove Like, I don't want to perpetuate those known errors via ibc
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tantek definitely start with the -x- on the read-status, with perhaps a warning about potential for proliferation with -watch-status -listen-status -task-status -exercise-status which would all likely share the same three values and meanings
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tantek point being, yes experiment! And openly (even aggressively) document known warnings / pitfalls / issues, and ask for help in iterating
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tantek and perhaps most importantly, be prepared to iterate (change properties / logic), and warn others of the same
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tantek in contrast to - rushing to making anything a "standard" property
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tantek i.e. file issues for review / challenging the design of a property, rather than filing issues for making a new property "standard", especially so early on in proposal/prototyping
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gRegorLove I thought they met the change control definitions for proposed properties. Sounds like they should go on the experimental properties page before that, though.
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tantek so some of this thinking / methodology is captured in microformats.org/wiki/process - but probably not to this level of precision (good property / value design / prototype / iteration)
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tantek as someone who is likely "too close to the answer", I'd very much like your review of microformats.org/wiki/process, especially in comparison/contrast to the above advice, and pointing out what's either missing in microformats.org/wiki/process, or especially what makes no sense, or no longer makes any sense
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tantek change control is a minimal bar to make sure sane implementable things get standardized
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tantek it's insufficient to actually drive a healthy minimal microformats vocabulary ecosystem over the long run
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gRegorLove I'll refresh on /process. It's been a while.
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gRegorLove I definitely wasn't trying to rush this through, and realize I'm close to it. :)
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tantek let's just say read-status / read-of has had the shortest time between publishing, prototyping, and filing an issue to consider standardizing
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tantek hence the "rush" adjective, even if not intended :)
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tantek start with considering moving "read-status" from the "how to" section (which makes it sound formally approved) to https://indieweb.org/read#Brainstorming with all the appropriate thoughts / caveats
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tantek you might not even want to do it as a status, but maybe as its own higher level post
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tantek e.g. we have indieweb.org/want as well
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gRegorLove Yeah, that How section I added recently. Figured I'd need to move it now.
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tantek p-page and p-total might also be good to either make p-x- or perhaps p-gregor- to keep it special for just your site
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tantek from https://indieweb.org/read#gRegor_Morrill
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tantek it's *good* that you're documenting the specific ways you're marking up your examples there
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gRegorLove Those were brief experiments; haven't used those in a while
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tantek good to note that
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tantek also https://indieweb.org/read#IndieWeb_Examples only has two mentions of examples using read-of, yours and rhiaro's
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tantek and differently so - p-read-of vs u-read-of
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tantek might want to add something in brainstorming about why/when to use one vs the other
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tantek no other examples document using any read-of variant
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tantek re: indieweb.org/want - consider that "want-to" could be a "status" value also, along with "started, doing, finished"
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gRegorLove schmarty isn't on there yet, but I know he does
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tantek or does a want post make sense as its own thing, with just an abstract resource being pointed to, instead of a status property?
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tantek (I don't have the answer, I'm asking the questions you should consider too)
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tantek or should we separate wants of things vs wants of experiences?
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gRegorLove Moved the How section to https://indieweb.org/read#gRegor_Morrill_thoughts, changed to p-x-read-status in the examples.
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tantek gRegorLove++ nice!
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Loqi gregorlove has 35 karma in this channel (257 overall)
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tantek gRegorLove: closest example I have to something I'm similarly working on is https://indieweb.org/untag#How_to_mark_up.3F
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tantek (note it is in brainstorming, and is presenting a bunch of possibilities I'm considering because IDK yet)
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tantek note that https://indieweb.org/untag is dominated by first use-cases, and second silo research to understand existing UX dynamics
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tantek similarly, https://indieweb.org/read#Screenshots_of_functionality documents a bunch of great screenshots and could probably use some summary analysis afterwards of what is present in the screenshots, e.g. apparent status from a menu with "Currently Reading", "Read", "Want to Read"
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[jgarber] Seems like a good opportunity to use the `<progress>` element for marking up where you’re at in a book.
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[jgarber] …or is that more of a `<meter>` sort of thing…?
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gRegorLove tantek++ thanks for walking me through some of this
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Loqi tantek has 18 karma in this channel (451 overall)
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tantek only you can help microformats stay micro
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tantek (said in Smokey the Bear voice)
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gRegorLove In other microformats, I do think u-bookmark-of might be ready to move to draft: https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/12 I'm pretty sure that's something you said in our mini microformats discussion with aaronpk and manton.
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Loqi [gRegorLove] #12 Upgrade u-bookmark-of from proposed to draft property
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tantek yeah it seems pretty well published
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gRegorLove Two consumers on https://indieweb.org/bookmark#Tools
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tantek we should analyze all the consuming uses to confirm they are doing interesting things
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Loqi +1
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tantek oh yeah - draft - I think that's true now with the indienews use-case
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aaronpk And the other indienews!
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aaronpk indieweb.xyz
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gRegorLove oh yeah! added.
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@Spellacy Are Microformats still a thing? (twitter.com/_/status/1016524284032962560)
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KartikPrabhu yes
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aaronpk maybe do a little bit of googling before tweeting
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[kevinmarks] Re listen/watch/read - that is what activity streams 2 ended up with; as1 had more (experience/consume/play) as near Synonyms. See http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/schema/activity-schema.html#verbs
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[kevinmarks] Not sure which were widely used. Play could combine listen and watch and also include playing a game. Read/listen could both apply to books, especially if you have a unified book +audio book model.
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tantek__ kevinmarks there's no evidence they ended up with anything better, or that it was a "good" balance
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tantek__ play as short for "playback" only makes sense as a "play" reference in the context of "record"
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tantek__ the interactive "play" I think is a better use for the term rather than "play" a video or "play" a record. whether playing a (sports || video) game, an instrument, perhaps even a part in play, though it's not clear if "playing" theater is the same meaning as "playing" sport, though perhaps they are, per professional wrestling
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[kevinmarks] Documenting current formats can be useful
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tantek__ documenting current formats *is* useful.
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[kevinmarks] https://developers.facebook.com/docs/sharing/opengraph/using-actions shows that they have deprecated custom verbs, and also deprecated "listen" for music.
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[kevinmarks] Their verbs are a weird mix of tenses: 'plays/watches/listens' but 'visited' and 'celebrate'
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tantek__ interesting
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[kevinmarks] Is "snitch tagging" worth documenting?
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/BootstrapCook/status/1016413720598269956?s=19
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Loqi [@BootstrapCook] @Crazi_crafter @DavidDavisMP nobody likes a snitch tagger babe
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[kevinmarks] https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mashable.com/2018/06/05/snitch-tagging.amp/
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tantek__ wow that
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KartikPrabhu wtd!
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KartikPrabhu wtf*!
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KartikPrabhu Loqi: what is typo-swearing?
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[jgmac1106] wow awesome discussion of the read-of post really like the idea of a "finished" property that could be used in so many contexts
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[chrisaldrich] tantek++ for a great crash-course in microformats thinking this morning
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Loqi tantek has 19 karma in this channel (453 overall)
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[chrisaldrich] On a lot of these (read, watch, listen) "progress" seems to be a common thing. I'm curious if project management software might provide some clues. Particularly Gantt chart related areas...
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gRegorLove tantek: /process makes sense to me particularly for new h-*; I wasn't clear if it's the same process for proposing new properties. I also wasn't clear if properties require the *-examples, *-formats, *-brainstorming pages on mf2, or if we're relying on indieweb wiki more for that now.
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tantek__ gregorlove, precisely. you have (by your questions) identified holes in /process
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tantek__ what we have fairly clear for new top level object h-*, we need to evolve into something similar for proposing new properties, since it's become quite clear that that's the current area of interesting growth
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[chrisaldrich] I've never seen the HTML progress element before... may have to start using that... https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/progress
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tantek__ I think it's ok to rely on the indieweb wiki for the documentation we're doing there, and I think we may need to more explicitly add more, e.g. documenting both existing silo uses of such features, and in particular documenting existing similar properties/features in existing formats
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tantek__ [chrisaldrich]: <progress> is more for a visual indicator
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gRegorLove Sounds good, tantek. I'm keeping an eye out now for consumers of properties and documenting them in a "Tools" section, being sure to use "consume" so it's findable on the page more easily.
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gRegorLove Actual consumers of the mf properties, not just micropub, now that I understand that :)
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tantek__ gRegorLove: sounds good. at some point we should start capturing good practices for property development too
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gRegorLove I'll defer to you and others on that; will ask questions as they come to mind, though
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tantek__ good practices are best documented by those who are doing :) that includes you
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tantek__ KartikPrabhu: semantics - webmention does in practice use HTML for both discovery via rel, and for determining semantics like comments, likes, reposts etc.
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tantek__ calling it a feature of HTML is not much of a stretch
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KartikPrabhu wrong channel ;)
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tantek__ heh
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