#microformats 2018-07-10

2018-07-10 UTC
#
tantek
as you've probably seen, much harder to eliminate after the fact, much easier to attempt to re-use and or design re-usable properties instead
#
tantek
even exercise posts (as aaronpk) alludes to could use such a "status"
#
gRegorLove
Yeah, I was thinking `status` is sounding like a possible candidate
#
tantek
some silos (notably Strava) even provide notifications for someone started an exercise, is currently exercising, finished an exercise
#
gRegorLove
No consumers for read-status yet, either.
#
tantek
sorta - if you look up "status" as an english word, it is heavily overloaded and could mean all sorts of things
#
tantek
e.g. bug status
#
tantek
new, unconfirmed, open, assigned, resolved, fixed, closed etc.
#
tantek
simliar words have similar problems e.g. "state"
#
tantek
good vocabulary design is actually quite challenging / hard, and not something any person can just "do" by trial and error. it helps to do it within a community. helps even more to not create new terms at all, and instead research other formats and re-use existing terms / values. helps even more to get someone with any kind of informatics / informatician / librarian degree to use tools of analysis that they've formally learned.
#
tantek
i.e. no one (myself included) is "good" at it per se, but we can take steps to reduce the chance of committing known errors
#
gRegorLove
Sorry if I've jumped too far ahead. I'm wondering what, if anything, I should do with ibc mp posts now to avoid future issues. Add the -x-? Something else?
#
tantek
e.g. hcard from vcard (zero invention there, other than methodically reformatting as HTML), hcalendar from icalendar etc. hreview took quite some time to iterate, and even then we ended up with something more complex than we now need with h-review.
#
gRegorLove
Like, I don't want to perpetuate those known errors via ibc
#
tantek
definitely start with the -x- on the read-status, with perhaps a warning about potential for proliferation with -watch-status -listen-status -task-status -exercise-status which would all likely share the same three values and meanings
#
tantek
point being, yes experiment! And openly (even aggressively) document known warnings / pitfalls / issues, and ask for help in iterating
#
tantek
and perhaps most importantly, be prepared to iterate (change properties / logic), and warn others of the same
#
tantek
in contrast to - rushing to making anything a "standard" property
#
tantek
i.e. file issues for review / challenging the design of a property, rather than filing issues for making a new property "standard", especially so early on in proposal/prototyping
#
gRegorLove
I thought they met the change control definitions for proposed properties. Sounds like they should go on the experimental properties page before that, though.
#
tantek
so some of this thinking / methodology is captured in microformats.org/wiki/process - but probably not to this level of precision (good property / value design / prototype / iteration)
#
tantek
as someone who is likely "too close to the answer", I'd very much like your review of microformats.org/wiki/process, especially in comparison/contrast to the above advice, and pointing out what's either missing in microformats.org/wiki/process, or especially what makes no sense, or no longer makes any sense
#
tantek
change control is a minimal bar to make sure sane implementable things get standardized
#
tantek
it's insufficient to actually drive a healthy minimal microformats vocabulary ecosystem over the long run
#
gRegorLove
I'll refresh on /process. It's been a while.
#
gRegorLove
I definitely wasn't trying to rush this through, and realize I'm close to it. :)
#
tantek
let's just say read-status / read-of has had the shortest time between publishing, prototyping, and filing an issue to consider standardizing
#
tantek
hence the "rush" adjective, even if not intended :)
#
tantek
start with considering moving "read-status" from the "how to" section (which makes it sound formally approved) to https://indieweb.org/read#Brainstorming with all the appropriate thoughts / caveats
#
tantek
you might not even want to do it as a status, but maybe as its own higher level post
#
tantek
e.g. we have indieweb.org/want as well
#
gRegorLove
Yeah, that How section I added recently. Figured I'd need to move it now.
#
tantek
p-page and p-total might also be good to either make p-x- or perhaps p-gregor- to keep it special for just your site
#
tantek
it's *good* that you're documenting the specific ways you're marking up your examples there
#
gRegorLove
Those were brief experiments; haven't used those in a while
#
tantek
good to note that
#
tantek
also https://indieweb.org/read#IndieWeb_Examples only has two mentions of examples using read-of, yours and rhiaro's
#
tantek
and differently so - p-read-of vs u-read-of
#
tantek
might want to add something in brainstorming about why/when to use one vs the other
#
tantek
no other examples document using any read-of variant
#
tantek
re: indieweb.org/want - consider that "want-to" could be a "status" value also, along with "started, doing, finished"
#
gRegorLove
schmarty isn't on there yet, but I know he does
#
tantek
or does a want post make sense as its own thing, with just an abstract resource being pointed to, instead of a status property?
#
tantek
(I don't have the answer, I'm asking the questions you should consider too)
#
tantek
or should we separate wants of things vs wants of experiences?
[jgarber] joined the channel
#
gRegorLove
Moved the How section to https://indieweb.org/read#gRegor_Morrill_thoughts, changed to p-x-read-status in the examples.
#
tantek
gRegorLove++ nice!
#
Loqi
gregorlove has 35 karma in this channel (257 overall)
#
tantek
gRegorLove: closest example I have to something I'm similarly working on is https://indieweb.org/untag#How_to_mark_up.3F
#
tantek
(note it is in brainstorming, and is presenting a bunch of possibilities I'm considering because IDK yet)
#
tantek
note that https://indieweb.org/untag is dominated by first use-cases, and second silo research to understand existing UX dynamics
#
tantek
similarly, https://indieweb.org/read#Screenshots_of_functionality documents a bunch of great screenshots and could probably use some summary analysis afterwards of what is present in the screenshots, e.g. apparent status from a menu with "Currently Reading", "Read", "Want to Read"
#
[jgarber]
Seems like a good opportunity to use the `<progress>` element for marking up where you’re at in a book.
#
[jgarber]
…or is that more of a `<meter>` sort of thing…?
#
gRegorLove
tantek++ thanks for walking me through some of this
#
Loqi
tantek has 18 karma in this channel (451 overall)
#
tantek
only you can help microformats stay micro
#
tantek
(said in Smokey the Bear voice)
#
gRegorLove
In other microformats, I do think u-bookmark-of might be ready to move to draft: https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/12 I'm pretty sure that's something you said in our mini microformats discussion with aaronpk and manton.
#
Loqi
[gRegorLove] #12 Upgrade u-bookmark-of from proposed to draft property
#
tantek
yeah it seems pretty well published
#
tantek
we should analyze all the consuming uses to confirm they are doing interesting things
#
tantek
oh yeah - draft - I think that's true now with the indienews use-case
[jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
aaronpk
And the other indienews!
#
aaronpk
indieweb.xyz
#
gRegorLove
oh yeah! added.
[miklb], [jgmac1106] and [Lovi] joined the channel
#
@Spellacy
Are Microformats still a thing?
(twitter.com/_/status/1016524284032962560)
#
aaronpk
maybe do a little bit of googling before tweeting
Adrian, tantek__, [eddie], [cleverdevil] and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks]
Re listen/watch/read - that is what activity streams 2 ended up with; as1 had more (experience/consume/play) as near Synonyms. See http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/schema/activity-schema.html#verbs
#
[kevinmarks]
Not sure which were widely used. Play could combine listen and watch and also include playing a game. Read/listen could both apply to books, especially if you have a unified book +audio book model.
#
tantek__
kevinmarks there's no evidence they ended up with anything better, or that it was a "good" balance
#
tantek__
play as short for "playback" only makes sense as a "play" reference in the context of "record"
#
tantek__
the interactive "play" I think is a better use for the term rather than "play" a video or "play" a record. whether playing a (sports || video) game, an instrument, perhaps even a part in play, though it's not clear if "playing" theater is the same meaning as "playing" sport, though perhaps they are, per professional wrestling
#
[kevinmarks]
Documenting current formats can be useful
#
tantek__
documenting current formats *is* useful.
#
[kevinmarks]
https://developers.facebook.com/docs/sharing/opengraph/using-actions shows that they have deprecated custom verbs, and also deprecated "listen" for music.
#
[kevinmarks]
Their verbs are a weird mix of tenses: 'plays/watches/listens' but 'visited' and 'celebrate'
#
tantek__
interesting
#
[kevinmarks]
Is "snitch tagging" worth documenting?
#
Loqi
[@BootstrapCook] @Crazi_crafter @DavidDavisMP nobody likes a snitch tagger babe
#
tantek__
wow that
#
KartikPrabhu
Loqi: what is typo-swearing?
[jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
[jgmac1106]
wow awesome discussion of the read-of post really like the idea of a "finished" property that could be used in so many contexts
nitot, [kevinmarks], barpthewire, [cjwillcock], [jgmac1106], [eddie], [wiobyrne], [stefp], TallTed, KartikPrabhu, tantek__, vivus, [kim_landwehr] and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel
#
[chrisaldrich]
tantek++ for a great crash-course in microformats thinking this morning
#
Loqi
tantek has 19 karma in this channel (453 overall)
#
[chrisaldrich]
On a lot of these (read, watch, listen) "progress" seems to be a common thing. I'm curious if project management software might provide some clues. Particularly Gantt chart related areas...
#
gRegorLove
tantek: /process makes sense to me particularly for new h-*; I wasn't clear if it's the same process for proposing new properties. I also wasn't clear if properties require the *-examples, *-formats, *-brainstorming pages on mf2, or if we're relying on indieweb wiki more for that now.
[jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
tantek__
gregorlove, precisely. you have (by your questions) identified holes in /process
#
tantek__
what we have fairly clear for new top level object h-*, we need to evolve into something similar for proposing new properties, since it's become quite clear that that's the current area of interesting growth
#
[chrisaldrich]
I've never seen the HTML progress element before... may have to start using that... https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/progress
#
tantek__
I think it's ok to rely on the indieweb wiki for the documentation we're doing there, and I think we may need to more explicitly add more, e.g. documenting both existing silo uses of such features, and in particular documenting existing similar properties/features in existing formats
#
tantek__
[chrisaldrich]: <progress> is more for a visual indicator
#
gRegorLove
Sounds good, tantek. I'm keeping an eye out now for consumers of properties and documenting them in a "Tools" section, being sure to use "consume" so it's findable on the page more easily.
#
gRegorLove
Actual consumers of the mf properties, not just micropub, now that I understand that :)
#
tantek__
gRegorLove: sounds good. at some point we should start capturing good practices for property development too
#
gRegorLove
I'll defer to you and others on that; will ask questions as they come to mind, though
#
tantek__
good practices are best documented by those who are doing :) that includes you
KartikPrabhu, [kevinmarks], [kim_landwehr], jackjamieson, [kiai], [tantek], [eddie] and tantek__ joined the channel
#
tantek__
KartikPrabhu: semantics - webmention does in practice use HTML for both discovery via rel, and for determining semantics like comments, likes, reposts etc.
#
tantek__
calling it a feature of HTML is not much of a stretch
#
KartikPrabhu
wrong channel ;)
[kim_landwehr] joined the channel