#microformats 2020-02-09

2020-02-09 UTC
[LewisCowles], KartikPrabhu, [jgmac1106], [chrisaldrich], gRegorLove and [snarfed] joined the channel
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@jgmac1106
↩️ So just owning data, preferably from own domain, is #IndieWeb enough, but then you can start doing cool stuff like having webrings and RSS Planets like we do with #clmooc, but a lot of #IndieWeb tools use metadata called microformats to connect (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1Szd4p)
(twitter.com/_/status/1226330503755767813)
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@jgmac1106
↩️ This is a tiny bit of data that is carried by any HTML element. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/microformats This means all your social and feed data is both human readable and machine readable in one place. Resilient. Stone tablet or new tablet you can read it. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/8wjeL)
(twitter.com/_/status/1226331530630438912)
[fluffy], [Christina_Hendr, [jeremycherfas], chrisaldrich, cyr-, [jgmac1106], gRegorLove, mblaney, [snarfed], [tantek], [LewisCowles], maxwelljoslyn, [Aaron_Klemm] and [AlisonW] joined the channel; mblaney left the channel
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@ChrisAldrich
For IndieWebCamp 2020 Online, I'm working at improving my WordPress Twenty Fifteen Theme so that it has some additional microformats support as well as support for other common #IndieWeb plugins like Syndication Links & Simple Location. [more...] https://boffosocko.com/2020/02/09/55766832/
(twitter.com/_/status/1226556658760835078)
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GWG
Historical question: Why did h-review become its own microformat instead of being a form of h-entry?
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[tantek]
GWG, hReview predated hAtom
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GWG
[tantek]: Okay
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[tantek]
There was a lot of hesitation to develop hAtom because of the nasty RSS/Atom wars, and we were afraid of attracting all the negative people / trolling from that war
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[tantek]
hReview was an opportunity to express detailed meaning (like ratings on scales for different aspects!) that nothing in RSS/Atom was even bothering to think of, and those things were designed specifically for consuming review aggregator applications to show and provide user features
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[tantek]
I still think it makes sense to have the much simpler h-entry for folks to use for most uses
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[tantek]
And I think h-review can use some iteration to simplify for both publishing and consuming
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[jgmac1106]
<-- is always wondering wwhere he is doing a u-read-of as part of an h-entry and wondering if I am really doing a review of the book and should use h-review. same with food and drink when does an entry pass into the world of being a review?
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[AlisonW]
Intention?
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[AlisonW]
If I say "I had a nice meal at XXX" that's not a review, if I say "I had a meal at XXX and the starter was cold, the mains was adequate... etc" that's more of a review
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[tantek]
[jgmac1106] if all you're doing is "reviewing" as in commenting, then no need to use anything beyond an h-entry, perhaps in-reply-to if you're reviewing something that is online.
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[tantek]
what we determined back in 2005 was the difference between idle commentary and an actual *review* was one or more ratings that ranked something either overall, or on specific aspects, as in if you said atmosphere 3/5, food 2/5, etc.
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[jgmac1106]
ooh I like that semantic filter, must have a rating
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[tantek]
that's what's actually valuable for consuming applications to aggregate and then display to folks. otherwise it's "just" commentary, which yes is still useful but not in the same way that aggregating reviews is useful
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[jgmac1106]
versus an opinion , good, bad
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[tantek]
right, opinions are still useful, but not in aggregation like that
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[tantek]
we specifically designed hReview around consuming use-cases
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[tantek]
if you're not rating anything about it, then there's nothing to summarize!
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[jgmac1106]
and on another note I have a PR filed to try to fix the empty p-name the fontawesome icon and title embedded in a link, inside an h2 messes stuff up
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[jgmac1106]
yeah I really like that filter
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[jgmac1106]
but it makes me want to think about badges as an h-review, in a way they are a binary scale
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[tantek]
not sure about that. binary is not a scale
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[jgmac1106]
0 or 1 is a scale
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[tantek]
in that regard, badges are more like tags that people slap on each other
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maxwelljoslyn
thank you tantek, this is exactly what I need to know as I consider splitting a big page of reviews into individual indieweb-friendly pages
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[AlisonW]
ahuh ... sure.
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[AlisonW]
a scale requires midpoints being available between maximum and minimum values, surelyh
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[jgmac1106]
no for me it is saying that the evidence in this artifact meets the specific criteria of badge....
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[tantek]
[jgmac1106] 0..1 is a scale (like probability) but 0 or 1 is a dichotomy, not a scale
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[jgmac1106]
no@alisonW I fall in the camp that likes even scales, no mush middle, even if I lose some variance, and the eigenvalues require larger samples
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[AlisonW]
(and this discussion is now making me rethink a bit of structural design ..)
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[jgmac1106]
yeah 0 to 1 is categorial, not ordinal true
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[tantek]
[jgmac1106] I don't think your example of scale would fit most of these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale
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[jgmac1106]
I am agreeing the data of binary is categorical not ordinal, thus not a scale
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[AlisonW]
All I can say is that my maths prof at uni wouldn't accept the idea of 'scale' on something that wasn't a continuous function between min and max
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[jgmac1106]
but I feel like I am reviewing the work of the learner when issuing the badge, but no comsumers yet anyways so no need to wate time on theory and get back to hacking
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[jgmac1106]
AlisonW there are entire conferences on the benefits of odd or even scales, psychometricians make careers out of never answering the question...to me 4 point scales is the "Yoda" factor of do or do not....people gravivate to mushy middle too much
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[jgmac1106]
but that is chat, time to hack
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[tantek]
[jgmac1106] Swarm currently allows you to rate venues on a 3 point scale 🙂 😐 😞
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[tantek]
and then uses that somehow to come up with a 0...10 point aggregate rating on venues!
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[jgmac1106]
hmmm, I would love to know the math behind the transformation
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[tantek]
I've seen +1 / -1 examples in terms up/down "votes" e.g. :thumbsup: :thumbsdown: but those are never called "ratings" nor "reviews"
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[jgmac1106]
Is it straight averages...okay i am closing down chat , until I reach next hack milestone, the gird layout of my poetry page
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[tantek]
yeah don't worry about their math I'm sure it is proprietary and they won't share 🙂
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aaronpk
that is curious... just pulled up an arbitrary venue and it's rated 8.4, but it also shows me 100% likes, 0% "ok", 0% dislikes
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aaronpk
so I wonder why that venue isn't a 10
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[AlisonW]
assigns a value to the person making the rating?
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[AlisonW]
so damned with faint praise is a real thing for them
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aaronpk
oh wow they look at the words in reviews too
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aaronpk
"delicious" -> "like"
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[jgmac1106]
"When we plotted the total numbers of inversions as a function of “okay,” the result was surprising: an optimal “okay” is worth only 10% of a like."
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[AlisonW]
wonder if/how they treat the US-UK language differences though, eg if I say a meal was "not bad at all" I actually mean really rather good.
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[jgmac1106]
this post is awesome...cultural bias, transformation of variables...can geek out
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aaronpk
they talk about that too
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[AlisonW]
ah .. guess I did a tl;dr
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Zegnat
(My favourite scale is the Hello Internet podcast rating scale where the degrees of the thumb between thumb down and thumb up are used.)
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[tantek]
Sounds like the roman colliseum method
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maxwelljoslyn
semantic thumb rotations! i love it
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@jgmac1106
↩️ Here was my first attempt at building the poetry page, haven't touched typography yet, just trying to figure out grid and feeds:https://web.archive.org/web/20200209231114/https://jgregorymcverry.com/mypoetry and how it parsed https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Fmypoetry I have some work to do, time to fire up grid inspector (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/LDseP)
(twitter.com/_/status/1226645894134669314)
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