#microformats 2021-02-01

2021-02-01 UTC
#
[KevinMarks] so the name/summary/content are 3 different sizes of information (and they are all optional)
#
[KevinMarks] part of this derives from the Atom/RSS split - RSS has description, because it was originally for sharing links to article, but that got overloaded with content too. Atom made the summary/content split explicit, and h-entry (and indeed ActivityStreams/ActivityPub) continue this
[benatwork], KartikPrabhu, mauz555, btrem, [chrisaldrich], btrem81, [timothy_chambe], [tantek], willnorris, [KevinMarks], marinin[t], [pfefferle], [Rose], [xavierroy], [fluffy] and jamietanna joined the channel
#
@AndreJaenisch ↩️ @ChrisAldrich Out of curiousity: How do you organise recipes? I _think_ I've seen microformats (or http://schema.org JSON-LD?) for them, too. (twitter.com/_/status/1356307608219639809)
[tantek] and btrem joined the channel
#
[tantek] Remember back in 2011 when Google gave you the option of microformats markup or their own made-up data-vocabulary markup for Rich Snippets? They finally shut down that iteration of making up a vocabulary https://twitter.com/googlesearchc/status/1356237121187700738 (via [KevinMarks]), leaving microformats as the longest standing format that they support and continue to support
#
Loqi [@googlesearchc] If you're using http://data-vocabulary.org structured data, keep in mind that we no longer support that format for rich results: https://twitter.com/googlesearchc/status/1322236415816560640
#
aaronpk LOL
#
aaronpk time to update my chart https://aaronparecki.com/2016/12/17/8/owning-my-reviews#historical-recommendations
#
Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Why Microformats? Owning My Reviews
#
[tantek] yessssss
#
GWG Posting reviews is still on my short list for pandemic projects
#
[tantek] And frankly, would make a good "new article" too with all the updates for 2021
#
[tantek] the SEO folks love seeing the LATEST article about these things
#
[tantek] even if it's like 95% copy/paste from the previous article
jmac_ and Loqi____ joined the channel
#
btrem That's true, but of course google are supporting schema.org, which is the successor of data-vocabulary.org.
#
btrem And, sadly, Google are *not* supporting microformats2.  :(
#
aaronpk right but look at how recently schema.org was created relative to the others, it's a pattern
#
btrem Ok, but I'm not sure you should be taking a victory lap just yet.
#
aaronpk the victory lap is the pattern continues
#
btrem I'm not as optimistic as you, I guess.
#
aaronpk the pattern of google dropping support for the things they previously created
#
aaronpk which is why not to trust things created by google
#
aaronpk "look at this standard we made, it's the best! everyone should use it!" ... later... "we have a new standard that's better, everyone switch to that!"
#
btrem I see your point, but schema.org started with very much the same vocabularies as data-vocab.
#
btrem It's not really a break as I see it.
#
[tantek] not at all. schema was made up by a totally different person that data-vocab and ditched all that
#
[tantek] it wasn't a "successor" it was a completely different NIH approach
#
[tantek] at least the data-vocab vocabs tried to re-use from microformats, but in a much more complex syntax
#
btrem data-vocabulary site is dead, so I can't look it up. I tried them out at one point, then switched to schema.org.
#
btrem And I can't exactly call my personal history with them.
#
[tantek] presumably it's in the Internet Archive if you're really curious
#
btrem ICBA to look right now!  :-o
#
[tantek] but that's a good (larger) point. the whole point of data-vocabulary org was a st of "stable" URLs to vocabularies. which means that now that they've taken it down, all data that was published in data-vocabulary gibberish markup is dead and unprocessable
#
[tantek] which is kind of a refutation of any vocab/markup system that depends on URLs to vocabs for its processing model
#
btrem I *am* surprised to find a mostly dead site there. Just a not saying "use schema.org".
#
[tantek] why trust it when they couldn't be bothered to even keep a static site working at data-vocab?
#
[tantek] this is kind of the point
#
[tantek] fool me once, etc.
#
btrem (shrug) Not like I'm their evangelist.
#
btrem Just that I suspect that their future efforts will be geared toward schema.org, as opposed to any developments in microformats. And they are still the 800 pound gorilla.
#
[tantek] which means they don't care about breaking your markup, like they just did for everyone depending on data-vocab.
#
[tantek] I suspect that based on evidence to date, they'll keep breaking people
#
btrem You understand that I'm not arguing for using Google, right?
#
btrem lol "breaking people"  that's harsh!
#
[tantek] it's ok, I mean, argument by action is the point here
#
[tantek] I suppose if you treat it as an ephemeral site API for Google's spiders and nothing more, that's pretty harmless.
#
aaronpk that's clearly all google cares about with it now
#
aaronpk and most of the SEO crowd
#
[tantek] the whole SEO ratrace seemed kinda pointless to spend time on (as individual publishers)
#
btrem I'm suspicious of SEO in general. Yet it's on my website in an "about me" section.  :/
#
btrem I guess because I figure it's important to other people.
#
tantek edited /h-feed (+9) "/* Examples in the wild */ replace my entry with a link to IndieWeb examples" (view diff)
#
tantek edited /h-feed (+31) "/* Status */ fix copy pasta of "h-entry-issues" to use the h-feed repo issues instead" (view diff)
#
tantek edited /h-feed (-20) "/* See Also */ drop h-feed-issues while it doesn't exist. we have a github repo for issues now" (view diff)
#
jacky re: above
#
jacky maybe leveraging some sort of mediawiki templating could help with that in the future?
#
jacky to highlight spec status and/or where to find more info?
#
[tantek] I feel like we couldn't even keep the draft/standard etc. templates working so meh
#
[tantek] templating only works when you're not actively re-organizing / continuously improving these things which often require rewrites
#
GWG [tantek]: We didn't make as much progress at that popup as I hoped
#
[tantek] GWG, we plenty of progress! there's just a lot of backlog
#
[tantek] GWG, you could probably propose one a month and we'd still work at it for a year 🙂
#
[tantek] for a while we were doing microformats dev sessions at IWC Portland / Summit and those were very productive
#
[tantek] I forget when we/why we stopped
#
jacky fair
#
[tantek] I have a feeling it may have had to do with aaronpk and me putting more and more time into organizing summits and less time to actually be doing (much less leading) sessions
#
[tantek] like before we had keynotes
#
[tantek] anyway this is more #indieweb-chat so I'll take it there
#
[KevinMarks] Is data vocabulary domain available now? Can we get it?
#
GWG [tantek]: I think maybe we can bring back a quarterly session
#
[tantek] sounds like a good idea GWG
#
[tantek] we should time one so we do one in early June before the anniversary
#
Loqi definitely
#
GWG [tantek]: We have nothing on Meetable other than HWC
#
GWG So we're wide open
#
GWG [tantek]: Didn't you have homework from the last one?
#
[tantek] probably 😔
#
GWG I think it was clarifying how the process is supposed to work to make it easier next time
#
GWG I'll have to check the notes
#
GWG https://indieweb.org/2020/Pop-ups/Microformats
#
GWG https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/25
#
Loqi [tantek] #25 Process for updating a proposed h-entry property
marinin[t] and btrem joined the channel
#
btrem [KevinMarks] Sorry to report that data-vocabulary.org is *not* available. It shows a bare-bones page saying "Use schema.org".
#
[KevinMarks] I do like that the "looking for RDF?" link 404s
#
[KevinMarks] Which is a very succinct critique of RDF.
#
btrem hahaha
#
Loqi hehe
#
btrem Now I'm laughing even harder because Loqi joined in! I had no idea (s)he would do that!
[Rose] joined the channel