btremRight. So I have a page that is an h-review of another page, an h-recipe. The h-review has a p-item that is set to h-review, and has a url pointing to that h-recipe page.
btrem“The Microformats at the source URL do not contain a link to the target URL. Check the source URL in a Microformats parser such as php.microformats.io”
btremSo I suppose my source must have one of those properties. That is, being an h-review, with a microformats p-item u-url set to the target, is not enough.
jamietanna joined the channel; btrem left the channel
[fluffy]1I think this is a thing which keeps on causing perpetual confusion because 5 of those are microformats and mention-of is just a webmention.io intrinsic.
btremI’m not sure I follow. aaronpk says webmention.io “should be doing is falling back to the HTML and ignoring the microformats if it doesn't recognize the vocab.” But h-review is a microformat. So does webmenions.io not recognize h-review? Hmm, now that I think about it, probably not.
btremIt would have to find the u-url property, then traverse up the tree to see if there’s a parent mf root property like h-review. The other properties are direct links.
btremWell, how else could it work? The other option would be requiring webmention processors to process the source, not just for links, but for the elements that contain links. IOW, it would, I think, require a lot more work for processors.
btremOk, but how else can it work? It would, ISTM, change the way webmentions works. A webmention for a review would look and behave differently than other webmentions, which could lead to confusion for everyone involved.
btremAnd I don’t think it is driving the markup. An h-review author might or might not want to create a webmention. Having a property like review-of would give authors control over that decision.
btremI suppose a workaround could be to add `mention-of` to my h-review u-url. But then webmention would return a `mention-of`; that is, I’d have to figure out how to distinguish `mention-of` and `mention-of`/`h-review`.
aaronpkhold on, this is a bug in webmention.io. it should accept a webmention from a page that has a link to another page regardless of what microformats are on the page
aaronpkso think of it as making sure your page has the right microformats markup that properly expresses the relationship between it and any links on the page
btremSo what is the purpose of `mention-of`? How does that augment a webmention? Or, to put it another way, what’s the difference between a page that links to another page with `mention-of` and a page that links without it?
btremAh. In that case, there’s no need for an author to add `mention-of` to a link. In the absence of any classes, the webmention will be defined as `mention-of`.
aaronpkthe top-level object is an h-review, one of the properties is p-item which may be a URL or may be an h-item with a URL that is the page being linked to
aaronpkso let's assume the yellow squash recipe was on my site, that looks like a perfectly reasonable page that my recipe should recognize as a review of it
btremWell, h-entry with in-reply-to doesn’t require going up the tree. You find the link to the target, see the class in-reply-to, and done. In my case, you find the target link, see that it’s u-url, then you have to start going up to find ancestor elements. If it’s p-item, then do x. If not, do y. If x, go up again, and try to find h-review. If found, do x, if not do y.
@mluggy↩️ הוסף microformats היכן שאפשר. מדובר בחתיכות קוד פשוטות שמתווספות ל-HTML ברמת המוצר, ביקורת, טבלה, גרף והופכת את המידע למובנה יותר. כשהוא מובנה, גוגל יבין אותו יותר, יתעדף ולפעמים גם יציג אותו בצורה אטרקטיבית יותר בתוצאות. (twitter.com/_/status/1468693839703683072)
btremSo, aaronpk, that seems different. Your post has an explicit `in-reply-to` property; mine has no such explicit property. To put it another way, webmention.io will process my h-review as a mention-of. There’s no other way to do it. Unless it goes *up* the tree (not drilling down inside your div.h-cite.u-in-reply-to for .u-url). My difficulty with this might be due to the fact that I haven’t done a lot of html processing.
@mluggy↩️ אולי זה אתר פחות מועמד לקידום (הם אמורים לדאוג לרוב הדברים בעצמם). אם זה אתר סחר, אפשר לשאול אותם אם הם מוסיפים microformats למוצרים/ביקורות.
מהצד שלך, לוודא שאת משתמשת בדומיין אחד ו-sticking with it. לא מייצרת עמודים כפולים או סתם. אגב, כמה מק"טים יש? למה למכור בעצמך ולא FBA? (twitter.com/_/status/1468696854883934211)
btremBy contrast, finding my link with u-url, with no other information, then going up the tree, and trying to figure out if the link is part of something bigger, seems much harder.
btremYou said, “microformats properties don't dictate post types if that makes sense.” How does webmentions.io determine that your post is a reply post, if not by seeing `in-reply-to`?
btremmeta: my apolgies for using slash marks in attempt to emphasize something I was saying earlier. In the log, it is turned into a broken link. :( I’ll use * from now on.
aaronpkWait what do you mean HTML processing? Nobody should be processing microformats by looking at the HTML other than authors of microformats libraries
aaronpkthat's why I was sending links to the parsed JSON, because that's what consumers will see after running the page thru a microformats parser. No HTML
aaronpkCorrect, which is why I've been saying the "mention-of" is a fallback that webmention.io uses in its API when it can't find microformats it recognizes but there is otherwise an HTML link
aaronpkThen yes currently you'd need to work around the limitation that webmention.io doesn't recognize reviews of recipes, or you could file a feature request to get it added :-D
btremAnd I’m still confused. You said that it looks at the json, and I should forget about the html. But earlier today, you said, “what it should be doing is falling back to the HTML and ignoring the microformats if it doesn't recognize the vocab.”
aaronpkWell the webmention spec is only talking about HTML, saying there should be an HTML link from the source to the target. That's the first step. Then later, the webmention receiver can decide what to do with the source page, which is where microformats comes in
btremIf I were capable, I’d love to create a pr to add the feature. I’ve never written in ruby, so I don’t know if I could pull it off. But it’d be a cool thing to add to my limited resume. Err, that is, my *h-resume*!
aaronpk(webmention.io is even more complicated because the core API is ruby but all the microformats parsing is done in PHP, so I would not recommend diving down that rabbit hole unless you want a real project)
@sosuisen_net microformats は特定の問題領域において慣習的となった div や span 要素の class 属性の利用パターンを意味的なマークアップとして取りまとめてゆこう、ということだったと思います。
アプローチには今も共感できます。
http://microformats.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/1468448380875841538)
btrem Here’s a link: https://btrem.com/2021/11-yellow-squash-rating
@mluggy ↩️ הוסף microformats היכן שאפשר. מדובר בחתיכות קוד פשוטות שמתווספות ל-HTML ברמת המוצר, ביקורת, טבלה, גרף והופכת את המידע למובנה יותר. כשהוא מובנה, גוגל יבין אותו יותר, יתעדף ולפעמים גם יציג אותו בצורה אטרקטיבית יותר בתוצאות. (twitter.com/_/status/1468693839703683072)