#microformats 2022-05-13

2022-05-13 UTC
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Seirdy WAI-ARIA's role="comment" seems basically equivalent to microformats2 comments except more powerful, since it's easy to make a comment and id semantically linked in a bi-directional manner.
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Seirdy specifically WAI-ARIA 1.3
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Seirdy i implemented them for displayed webmentions on seirdy.one. example page: https://seirdy.one/2020/11/23/website-best-practices.html. Now I just have to also display webmentions that point to in-page anchors and make those semantically linked to just the sections they reference.
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Loqi [Rohan Kumar] Best practices for inclusive textual websites
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Seirdy lowkey thinking that we should at some point make microformats3 and make it use "aria-details" and `role="comment"` for comments, reactions, etc.
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[tantek] except what's the consuming use-case? in particular, what mf2 does is identify the different *parts* of a comment (content, author, published) which is the more interesting part because that's what consuming code needs to make sense of a comment.
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[tantek] role=comment doesn't actually help with that
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Seirdy oh im not proposing getting rid of microformats entirely
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Seirdy far from
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Seirdy just adding relationships between comments and the parts of posts that are commented on, using aria-details.
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[tantek] I'm trying to understand the context in which role=comment actually enables some additional user-visible functionality
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Seirdy think of review modes in word processors
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Seirdy a comment is linked to a highlighted part of a document
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Seirdy through aria-details
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Seirdy so you could use a <mark> or <section> element in the document with aria-details pointing to a role=comment
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Seirdy role=comment isn't actually doing much on its own, it only exists to describe the relationship declared by aria-details as a "comment" since aria-details is pretty generic
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Seirdy as opposed to, say, a full image transcript
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Seirdy or editorial note
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Seirdy essentially, it's the first step towards moving from "what things are" to "how things relate to each other" beyond the standard parent/child relationships.
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[tantek] I don't think such "first step" approaches work unless there's actual interest in some consuming code in doing something with it.
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Seirdy the WAI-ARIA 1.3 draft spec lists multiple use-cases.
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Seirdy the most obvious is the way people make quoted replies
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Seirdy popular in word processors, medium.com, microblogging platforms, etc.
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Seirdy oh and forums, similar to interleaved quoting in email
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Seirdy JAWS has already implemented support for aria-details
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[tantek] those all require discerning the content of a comment from the entirety of the comment, which as noted, ARIA by itself doesn't provide.
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Seirdy right, im not saying we should use ARIA by itself
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[tantek] what does "support for aria-details" mean? like what does JAWS do differently when it see aria-details?
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Seirdy it allows users to read an element's details when focused.
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[tantek] cool
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Seirdy so if i focus on a detailed element, i can read the markup in the referenced id
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Seirdy it's like obsoleted "longdesc"
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Seirdy or like a more advanced "describedby"
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[tantek] ah, right
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[tantek] I agree with the use-cases listed, my point is the markup "solution" offered doesn't actually solve them
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Seirdy so you can use "labelledby" for a short text label, "describedby" for a longer text alternate, and "details" for rich markup. but this begs the question "what is the relationship between the rich markup and the described content".
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Seirdy hence, role="comment" for "comments"
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Seirdy combine that with mf2 and you can have a mf2 comment only reference a specific part of a work
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Seirdy rather than the parent object
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[tantek] mf2 h-entry replies already reference by URL what they are in-reply-to, which can include an id
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[tantek] maybe we're talking about different use-cases. an mf2 reply is on a different page (and site usually) than the post it is in-reply-to
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@erikkroes ↩️ I am actually adding some non-semantic HTML (it's all semantic right now!) with the goal of... adding more semantics. Not sure how I can fit in microformats otherwise. (twitter.com/_/status/1524998289229324290)
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[tantek] ^ would be interesting to see the use-case and existing markup
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jacky I don't see a particular design decision as to why nanoseconds or microseconds aren't included at https://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern
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jacky (from a cursorary scan)
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jacky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601 does seem to permit them
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[KevinMarks] It's RFC 3339 that doesn't IIRC https://ijmacd.github.io/rfc3339-iso8601/
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[KevinMarks] Also https://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime
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jacky that is a very handy venn diagram
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jacky hmm okay
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jacky well I've added support for nanosecond-level precision parsing in time values in the Rust parser
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jacky only used if it's detected
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sknebel are you making an h-feed for a particle accelerator? :)
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sknebel "I just saw some protons smash into each other!!!11 #boom"
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jacky lmfaoo
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jacky nah so like there's cases where the datetime I get in has nanosecond precision (or even microsecond precision)
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jacky I could just forcibly remove them (that would have been easier, now I have to update two libraries lol)
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[tantek] sknebel++
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Loqi sknebel has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (35 in all channels)
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@KevinBankston ↩️ You don't think that has to do with the fact that it is a blogging rather than microblogging platform? Bot-tweeting is a lot easier than bot-blogging... (Or are you arguing that intentionally designed platforms should avoid microformats?) (twitter.com/_/status/1525168779558125569)
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[tantek] lolwut
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@kevinmarks ↩️ And on how that went astray a few times: https://www.kevinmarks.com/twitterhatespeech.html PS what did you mean by "microformats" above as you seem to imply something other than how they work (twitter.com/_/status/1525230107220123659)
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[tantek] ah, he meant "microcontent" in the old early 2000s meaning
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