#microformats 2023-09-18

2023-09-18 UTC
btrem, [tantek], tyram, MentallyRetired, eitilt, gRegorLove__, fLaMEd, [Murray], [KevinMarks], Loqi___, yogurt, [schmarty], [aciccarello] and Rysheve joined the channel
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btrem re: https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2023-09-15/1694803581245700
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Loqi [preview] [btrem] My reply is a link to xkcd: https://xkcd.com/927/
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btrem and https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2023-09-15/1694803541185400
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Loqi [preview] [btrem] I just read https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8693#issuecomment-1717176426 (thanks capjamesg++ for the tip).
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btrem I just reread capjamesg's github reply, and followed a link to his "use-case driven standards development" where there's a link to...https://xkcd.com/927/. Oops. My link to it must have seemed oddly superfluous.
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Loqi [preview] [XKCD] Standards https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards_2x.png
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c​apjamesg btrem 🤣
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btrem Exactly my reaction when I clicked the "use case..." link. A bit embarrassed. But mostly just laughing at myself. :-D
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[tantek] SITUATION: There are 14 competing XKCD citations
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btrem hahaha
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Loqi ahahaha
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btrem I'm tempted to reply to the github, but I'm not sure what the point would be. The issue was created in January, and there doesn't seem to be much going on other than a handful of wish list replies: we need a <tag> element, we need a <measurement> element, we need....
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c​apjamesg 😄
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c​apjamesg btrem We are evidently on the same metaphorical wavelength 😅
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btrem Yeah. When I read the GitHub issue, the xkcd strip immediately came to mind. How could it not? Paraphrase: there's microformats, and microdata, and json-ld. But we need a new standard to handle all our use cases."
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btrem But maybe the most glaring thing that struck me was his assertion that we need an <author> element to indicate the content author. Isn't that was <address> is for?
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btrem ...that what <address> is for?
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c​apjamesg > <address> can be used in a variety of contexts, such as providing a business's contact information in the page header, or indicating the author of an article by including an <address> element within the <article>.
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c​apjamesg (MDN, https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/address)
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btrem Right, that's the page I looked up when I read the GH issue, and sure enough, <address> is what the op needs.
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[KevinMarks] We need to redo that xkcd for SocialWG
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btrem So apparently he's not trying to solve a use case that doesn't exist. He's trying to solve a use case that has already been solved. In the original HTML spec, if I'm not mistaken.
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j​kingweb Never underestimate the capacity for people to be ignorant of the capability of the tools they use every day.
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btrem Right.
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c​apjamesg HTML is a complicated spec, however.
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j​kingweb For sure. My statement is not (necessarily) an indictment of the person. 😉
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btrem Well, certainly <address> is an unfortunate tag name for an element that is meant to indicate the owner or author of a page.
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btrem <author> would have been preferable. But then there are lots "if only" things about html.
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[KevinMarks] SocialWG:
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[KevinMarks] 1. situation there are 17 competing standards
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[KevinMarks] 2. We need a SocialWG to agree which standards to use and clarify them
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[KevinMarks] 3. There are 2.5 competing standards
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[capjamesg] btrem there is a relevant W3C doc for “there are lots “if only” things about html” but I can’t find it.
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[capjamesg] Here it is! https://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/
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[capjamesg] I have been looking for this for days.
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[capjamesg] > Revolutions sometimes change the world to the better. Most often, however, it is better to evolve an existing design rather than throwing it away. This way, authors don’t have to learn new models and content will live longer.
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btrem I wonder how many things in that document bug me, too. I'm off to read it.
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[tantek] [KevinMarks]++ yes we need to do that cartoon!
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Loqi [KevinMarks] has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (45 in all channels)
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[capjamesg] Blog about it [KevinMarks]!
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