2014-09-09 UTC
jasnell, nicolagreco, cmhobbs, KevinMarks, bblfish, oshepherd_, Arnaud, rhiaro_, rhiaro, RichardLitt, melvster, barnabywalters, deiu and shepazu joined the channel
# 14:42 Tsyesika I applied to be an invited expert on the 26th of august and not heard anything back? How long does the process usually take? nicolagreco, Morbus, jasnell, jasnell_ and evanpro joined the channel
# 16:13 cmhobbs Tsyesika, i'm not sure it's being discussed. i applied a while back as well and there's two others listed on the wiki page # 16:13 cmhobbs i've just been watching the list, trying to stay informed # 16:14 cmhobbs this close to tpac though, i don't know what's going on jtauber joined the channel
# 16:17 Tsyesika cmhobbs: hopefully they get round to reviewing and accepting soon # 16:20 Tsyesika evanpro: i applied to be an invited expert on the 26th of august and cmhobbs applied too and we've not heard anything # 16:20 evanpro I haven't seen anything in the chairs queue but let me see if I can follow up # 16:21 cmhobbs tantek spoke to me briefly when i applied but that was about it # 16:37 evanpro I wonder what our participation will be today, since we're up against the Apple keynote # 16:46 wilkie pft. this is more important than some apple keynote. :) tiborKatelbach and elf-pavlik joined the channel
# 16:53 evanpro OK, looks like it's almost time to start the meeting harry joined the channel
# 16:58 harry sorry, in between flights on way to Web Crypto v.Next workshop RRSAgent joined the channel
# 16:58 RRSAgent trackbot, access must be one of public, group-strint-submission, offline-webapps-workshop-program-committee, group-webmobile-chairs, group-rdf-val-pc, alumni, group-payment-workshop-submissions, wstar, group-digipub-chairs, member, memberSearchers, group-csv-chairs, wsridirectors, i18n, valid, group-strint-pc, webcrypto, offices, w3f, mlw, group-wot-workshop-pc, team, webandtv-moderators, ab, group-share-psi, group-payment-workshop-pc, memberEditors, w[CUT] Zakim joined the channel
# 16:58 Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes DaveSkiba joined the channel
# 16:59 Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry dromasca joined the channel
# 16:59 evanpro no, akuckartz wont be here today so we need a new scribe # 16:59 tiborKatelbach Zakim: +tiborKatelbach # 17:00 evanpro Arnaud: you're next alphabetically, would you mind scribing? # 17:00 deiu Regrets on my part (busy with something) # 17:00 RRSAgent trackbot, access must be one of public, group-strint-submission, offline-webapps-workshop-program-committee, group-webmobile-chairs, group-rdf-val-pc, alumni, group-payment-workshop-submissions, wstar, group-digipub-chairs, member, memberSearchers, group-csv-chairs, wsridirectors, i18n, valid, group-strint-pc, webcrypto, offices, w3f, mlw, group-wot-workshop-pc, team, webandtv-moderators, ab, group-share-psi, group-payment-workshop-pc, memberEditors, w[CUT] # 17:00 Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now # 17:01 Zakim ok, sandro; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM # 17:01 sandro it's just it didn't identify the telecon properly # 17:01 Zakim On the phone I see [IPcaller], +1.503.567.aaaa, +26226234aabb, [IPcaller.a], Tsyesika, Sandro # 17:02 jtauber i may be IPcaller.a # 17:02 Zakim sorry, harry, I do not see a conference named 'social' in progress or scheduled at this time # 17:02 jtauber zakim, [IPcaller.a] is jtauber # 17:03 Zakim On the phone I see evanpro, aaronpk, +26226234aabb, jtauber, Tsyesika, Sandro, jasnell, Arnaud, ??P12, wilkie, ??P15 # 17:03 tiborKatelbach zakim +tiborKatelbach # 17:03 tiborKatelbach zakim aabb is me jasnell joined the channel
# 17:04 tiborKatelbach zakim, aabb is me # 17:04 Zakim On the phone I see evanpro, aaronpk, tiborKatelbach, jtauber, Tsyesika, Sandro, jasnell, Arnaud, ??P12, wilkie, ??P15 # 17:04 Tsyesika i'm not on the call btw :s not sure why it thinks i am :P # 17:04 Zakim sorry, wilkie, I do not recognize a party named 'pedantic' # 17:04 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wilkie # 17:04 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jasnell # 17:04 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wilkie # 17:04 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose evanpro # 17:04 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tsyesika # 17:04 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose evanpro # 17:04 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jasnell # 17:04 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro # 17:05 harry jasnell has to speak a lot this meeting I imagine # 17:05 Loqi evanpro meant to say: sandro: can you scribe for us? # 17:05 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose evanpro # 17:05 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro # 17:05 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wilkie # 17:05 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Arnaud # 17:06 Zakim sees on the phone: evanpro, aaronpk, tiborKatelbach, jtauber, Tsyesika, Sandro, jasnell, Arnaud, wilkie, ??P15, hhalpin, tommorris, ??P19 # 17:06 trackbot Created ACTION-1 - Create a scribe list [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-09-16]. # 17:06 dromasca Zakim, ??P15 is me # 17:07 sandro evanpro: working on scribes list, but it's not quite done yet # 17:08 sandro evanpro: this is the 3rd official meeting. we're behind schedule, for various reasons # 17:09 sandro .. I've revised the schedule. It's ambitious, but I think we can meet it. # 17:10 sandro evanpro: For September, our big item is picking an initial social data syntax # 17:10 sandro .. with the intention of by next week we'll have an agreed set of candidates and criteria # 17:11 sandro .. and two weeks from now we'll have confirmed that direction # 17:11 sandro evan: I'm an AS advocate, but I want us to consider other options # 17:12 Zakim sandro, you wanted to ask about draft publication schedule # 17:12 harry either publication at TPAC or before TPAC is fine with me. # 17:13 sandro sandro: goal is to have consensus to publish BEFORE of AFTER tpac? # 17:13 jasnell My proposal is currently documented in the AS2 draft... specifically... JSON + AS2 Vocabulary + (JSON-LD alignment + recommended use of Vcard, Foaf, Org Ont, DC, and Prov ontologies). Other ontologies such as schema.org *could* be used, but would not be specifically recommended elf-pavlik joined the channel
# 17:14 sandro evanpro: Topic at the moment is the schedule itself. # 17:14 Zakim sorry, oshepherd_, I do not recognize a party named '+??P20' # 17:15 sandro evanpro: AS / schema discussion is later on the agenda # 17:15 sandro evanpro: As the existing list of candidates and requirements reasonable? # 17:15 Loqi sandro meant to say: evanpro: Is the existing list of candidates and requirements reasonable? # 17:16 sandro evan: And can we make the decision within two weeks # 17:16 sandro evanpro: Hearing no comments, I'm going to take that as agreement # 17:16 sandro shepazu: As a way of getting feedback, you might ask for a specific proposal deiu joined the channel
# 17:17 sandro PROPOSED: The schedule for the Social Data Syntax is as just discussed, closing out candidates & requirements next week, trying to for dececision in two weeks, and draft published after F2F # 17:18 sandro RESOLVED: The schedule for the Social Data Syntax is as just discussed, closing out candidates & requirements next week, trying to for dececision in two weeks, and draft published after F2F # 17:19 sandro shepazu: Because this group has decided to work asynchronously, was there a call for consensus on this on the mailing list as well? # 17:20 sandro shepazu: How about: Report this proposal to the mailing list, showing consensus on mailing list, and please respond to let us know what you think (giving a deadline). This way you've checked all the boxes in terms of being async. # 17:20 harry How about RESOLVED = what shepazu just said # 17:21 sandro Arnaud: This sounds like a heavy process. The minutes are published -- this should stick until/unless someone raises a concern on the mailing list. # 17:21 Zakim sees harry, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 17:22 sandro shepazu: When groups I've been in have said they want to work asynchronously, they've accepted the idea that people wont be on calls. If you want to say people have to read the minutes to participate, that's fine, too. # 17:22 tiborKatelbach The group could vote for Arnaud or dougs view # 17:22 sandro Arnaud: Since we've decided to put the minutes in the wiki, we can highlight the resolutions at the top # 17:22 sandro Arnaud: then they stick a week later, when minutes are approved # 17:23 tiborKatelbach +1 doug # 17:23 sandro shepazu: There's a perl tool that pulls out the resolutions and writes them to a wiki page for the SVG wg # 17:23 wilkie darn it all! nobody told me that last week haha # 17:24 harry Resolutions can be objected within a week. # 17:24 sandro evanpro: Sounds like -- bring resolutions to top of minutes, but don't send special email. And people have up to the week later. # 17:25 shepazu thinks if people want better tools, they can build them :) # 17:25 sandro RESOLVED: resolutions will be highlighted in minutes, and people not at meeting can bring up their concerns within the following week # 17:25 sandro be built them, shepazu, but doesn't have the time to SUPPORT them # 17:26 sandro evanpro: social client api -- collecting candidates and requirements # 17:26 shepazu sandro, them put them on github and let people submit patches and pull requests # 17:27 shepazu sandro, that is *exactly* like putting them on github :P # 17:27 sandro PROPOSED: Social API schedule: gather candidates and requirements by mid October # 17:27 harry I'd like to see what other AS 2.0 work besides OpenSocial is in this space # 17:28 sandro PROPOSED: Social API schedule: gather candidates and requirements by mid October, with confirmed direction shortly thereafter, but no draft approved at TPAC # 17:28 sandro RESOLVED: Social API schedule: gather candidates and requirements by mid October, with confirmed direction shortly thereafter, but no draft approved at TPAC # 17:29 harry I think re federation that's pretty hard - we can modify schedule later. # 17:29 sandro evanpro: Server-to-Server / Federation protocol, I'd like to put that off a bit, until we have some bandwidth to look at them, then look at schedule. # 17:30 harry Anyways, just don't worry - we can modify agenda in charter # 17:30 oshepherd A point I've raised in the past: I think that any comprehensive social API and federation protocol are fundamentally intertwined concepts # 17:30 sandro evanpro: I think federation in the charter is Q1 or Q2 2015 # 17:32 jasnell a properly designed API will also handle the federation requirement # 17:32 sandro evanpro: For example ostatus and pump.io many of the rest endpoints are used for both, so it probably makes sense to consider social api # 17:33 elf-pavlik sandro: federation protocols first and client api just special case (elf-pavlik tries help scribing) # 17:34 sandro evanpro: There are many social APIs in use across the web, and we can provide value by standardizing that, without addressing federation. I wouldn't want to delay that in the name of thinking about federation. # 17:35 shepazu I'm curious how the different options for Social Data Syntax and Social API are going to be evaluated… are there use cases and requirements for these? # 17:35 sandro .. we do have a submission (embedded experiences), and ?? from open social, which could work very well for social API # 17:36 sandro evanpro: Answering shepazu -- I think we're talking about collecting them for discussion. We do have a social data syntax requirements page on the wiki, but they are very loose and informal. # 17:36 sandro .. We could get pretty far down the hole in use case analysis # 17:37 sandro elf-pavlik: it's hard to evaluate without use cases. # 17:37 harry I find use-cases tend to blackhole in this space, look for running code people use instead. AdamB joined the channel
# 17:37 sandro elf-pavlik: this came up in considering Hydra # 17:37 harry For example, the Social XG made a 50 use-case document that was basically infinite and never finished. # 17:37 sandro evanpro: 95% of use case analysis is in the activity streams already # 17:38 harry I'd recommend looking for *running code* with *real users* # 17:39 harry And see what they are *actually doing* - and include both open-source and proprietary systems in this codebase analysis. # 17:39 sandro evanpro: current wiki list is very loose; if we did use case justification, it would go on and on. # 17:39 harry For example, IBM has Connections, Evan has pump.io, SugarCRM, SAP Jam, IndieWeb sites # 17:40 harry I'd like to see a list of products and software rather than use-cases, and then look maybe at the problems that real running software is trying to solve. # 17:40 harry Since 90% of the software in the "decentralized" social space is essentially vapourware # 17:40 AdamB zakim, this is aacc # 17:40 Zakim sorry, AdamB, I do not see a conference named 'aacc' in progress or scheduled at this time # 17:40 sandro tommorris: Looking at use cases for federation protocol, and wondering how it relates to charter requirements. Are we talking about an individual social network (eg facebook or twitter), or .... what are the servers we're federating? # 17:41 harry Federation = HTTP REST-based protocol for federating data, including obvious things like blog posts but possibly also personal data. # 17:41 sandro evanpro: I think the intention is to have multoiple servers under the control of different entities, including consumer oriented social networks and enterprises, able to share data between servers, hetergeneous, like SMTP # 17:41 jasnell Part of the challenge here is that we are not working off a common definition of what a "Social API" means... or what "Social Federation" means... we need proposed definitions # 17:42 harry I think definitions will rathole just as bad as use-cases. Instead, look at working software that claims they have federation or want it. # 17:42 sandro evanpro: It would be less interesting and not worth our energy to look at how folks should do these things internally. # 17:43 sandro dromasca: (from Avaya) This definition of federation you just described, this is much beyond social API. it brings up data ownership. not sure that's in current charter. # 17:43 harry Data ownership is probably a separate topic but we should help enable that. # 17:43 oshepherd dromasca: Data ownership will probably be similar to SMTP # 17:44 sandro elf-pavlik: I think it would help to discuss things more on the mailing list # 17:44 oshepherd dromasca: I.E. if you send it to somebody, you probably can't get it back # 17:44 sandro evanpro: We're putting Federation until after TPAC; concentrate on client api and social data standard now. # 17:45 sandro evanpro: can we table this Federation talk for now? # 17:45 sandro evanpro: (except where it might require things of the Social API) # 17:46 sandro evanpro: We have some candidates on the wiki, as well as some loose requirements # 17:46 sandro evanpro: Hydra, Schema.org, AS2 are all strong candidates # 17:47 sandro evanpro:We also included some not-submitted structures, like OGP and Tweets # 17:47 sandro evanpro: Facebook is not interested in submitting OGP # 17:47 Zakim harry, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: evanpro (27%), ??P19 (4%) # 17:48 sandro evanpro: Unlikely they'll submit that, but it's possible # 17:49 jasnell The syntax ought to be: JSON + JSON-JD + minimal set of vocabularies including AS2 and the others documented in the AS2 draft. It should be possible to use schema.org, but it should not be a recommendation of the WG to use schema.org unless schema.org governance is opened up. # 17:49 sandro elf-pavlik: Hydra may start using the schema.org vocabulary # 17:49 jasnell it's great that schema.org updated terms of service, but governance is still a challenge # 17:50 harry The previous good argument was that schema.org did not conform with RFF patent policy # 17:50 Zakim harry, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: evanpro (25%), Sandro (4%), ??P19 (36%) # 17:50 harry ??P19 is assumed to be source of random beeps # 17:51 sandro jasnell: There's the syntax and the vocabs. For the syntax, if we focus on JSON and JSON-LD, that covers that. For Schema.Org, it's fantastic they changed the terms to be compatible with W3C, but governances is still an issue. # 17:52 harry I think the main argument is how to harmonize so we can use schema.org nicely with something like AS 2.0. # 17:52 sandro jasnell: While that's still the case, I don't think W3C should be recommending people to go use it. # 17:52 sandro jasnell: It's possible for individual developers to use from multiple vocabs # 17:53 oshepherd There should also be concern over Schema.org's quality control # 17:53 sandro jasnell: so it's possible to use schema. org but util we work something out, we shouldnt recommend # 17:54 evanpro sandro: although schema.org will not turn over the vocabulary entirely it could be dual-homed # 17:54 sandro sandro: maybe we can align terms between the two # 17:55 Zakim sees dromasca, Arnaud on the speaker queue # 17:55 sandro evanpro: if schema.org meets our basic requirements, I'd like to at least consider it on technical grounds. I'm not sure if it does. I'd like to analyse it from those grounds, before we put a lot of effort into dual-homing # 17:55 harry For schema.org we'd also need Google in WG to make any parts of it move forward on Rec track BTW # 17:56 sandro dromasca: It's probably too early, since you're right about technical issue need to be addressed first. # 17:56 jasnell we need to separate the syntax and vocabulary discussions a bit. The syntax is the JSON, JSON-LD and basic encoding guidelines (much of what AS2 defines)... the vocabulary is the data model, the set of property names, the semantics, etc # 17:57 jasnell we can decide on the syntax separately from ironing out all the vocab issues # 17:57 sandro sandro: No promises on governance, but I think it's probably possible, based on talks with DanBri, etc. # 17:58 sandro Arnaud: So we could copy schema.org and put it under our own control? And if everyone plays nicely, things keep working. # 17:58 sandro Arnaud: Also, it seems like this wiki page is a good start. We need to separate syntax from vocabularies. # 17:59 sandro Arnaud: Can we separate candidates, apples from oranges # 18:00 sandro evanpro: From my point of view -- we're not talking about all of schema.org, just the Action section. Separating syntax from vocabs could really confuse users, so I'm wary about separating them. KevinMarks joined the channel
# 18:00 sandro evanpro: We've hit the top of the hour. Can we continue another 15 minutes? # 18:00 harry sounds good but I have to drop to catch airplane # 18:01 harry sandro, just make sure to use trackbot to end meeting # 18:01 oshepherd I think there is a need for a *simple*, *concise* vocabulary with a tight relation to the syntax # 18:03 jasnell +0.5 ... we need to be clear... AS2 is JSON that is compatible with JSON-LD # 18:03 tommorris +0 - if RDFish Linked Data matches the use cases, JSON-LD seems a natural technology to use. # 18:03 oshepherd (I'll note that jasnell's point is the entire purpose of JSON-LD) # 18:04 tiborKatelbach schema.org ontolgies can also be written in json-ld # 18:04 sandro jasnell: JSON-LD implies both the JSON syntax and a particular processing model, and the @id kind of stuff. For backward compatibility, AS2 did not go there. # 18:05 sandro jasnell: AS2 does not say that it is JSON-LD, but here is a set of guidelines for how to process it as JSON-LD. # 18:06 sandro evanpro: My hope is that we understand that well before the F2F # 18:06 oshepherd I'd like to see the vocab and processing model properly separated from the syntax portions of the AS2 spec # 18:06 sandro evanpro: jasnell would you take an action to describe that structure? # 18:07 sandro ACTION: jasnell to describe how AS2 diverges from JSON-LD and manages the compatibility # 18:07 oshepherd (A lot of the issues I've raised with AS2 are because the mapping is not at all clear) # 18:07 sandro ACTION: jsnell to describe how AS2 diverges from JSON-LD and manages the compatibility # 18:07 trackbot Created ACTION-2 - Describe how as2 diverges from json-ld and manages the compatibility [on James Snell - due 2014-09-16]. # 18:08 Zakim sees sandro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 18:08 sandro evanpro: continue this on the mailing list, please # 18:09 sandro sandro: Anyone willing to compare AS2 and schema.org, so we don't have to all do it for ourselves?? # 18:10 jasnell I've documented a few comparisons on my personal blog in the past, will provide links in the wiki # 18:10 sandro action: elf to work on comparison of AS2 vocab and schema.org actions vocab # 18:10 trackbot Created ACTION-3 - Work on comparison of as2 vocab and schema.org actions vocab [on Pavlik elf - due 2014-09-16]. # 18:10 jasnell and will post a few of my own comments to the mailing list as time allows # 18:10 Loqi sandro meant to say: tiborKatelbach: I'll help: too! # 18:11 sandro elf-pavlik: On social syntax vs vocab, the way collections work, Hydra and LDP do that differently. Itemlist on schema. # 18:12 sandro sandro: LDP containers *can* impact your vocabulary desing # 18:13 oshepherd sandro: I'm not quite sure how collections in Hydra are any different from OWL # 18:13 sandro evanpro: trying to get agenda out before the weekend --- I'll try # 18:15 sandro evanpro: Presenting social efforts during other events # 18:15 sandro elf-pavlik: I'm going to some events; I'll work on a slide deck. Anyone have slides, or want to help? # 18:16 sandro evanpro: We're out of time. Any other business? # 18:17 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been +1.503.567.aaaa, +26226234aabb, Tsyesika, Sandro, jasnell, Arnaud, evanpro, aaronpk, wilkie, jtauber, tiborKatelbach, hhalpin, tommorris, # 18:17 Zakim ... dromasca, Doug_Schepers, oshepherd_, +1.314.777.aacc, AdamB, oshepherd # 18:17 Zakim Attendees were +1.503.567.aaaa, +26226234aabb, Tsyesika, Sandro, jasnell, Arnaud, evanpro, aaronpk, wilkie, jtauber, tiborKatelbach, hhalpin, tommorris, dromasca, Doug_Schepers, # 18:17 Zakim ... oshepherd_, +1.314.777.aacc, AdamB, oshepherd # 18:17 Zakim sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is # 18:17 RRSAgent I'm staying, trackbot; no access has been specified for the meeting record # 18:17 RRSAgent I'm staying, trackbot; no access has been specified for the meeting record # 18:17 tiborKatelbach elf do you want to have a call to get organised ? # 18:18 tiborKatelbach ok give me a buzz when your available # 18:18 Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: thanks to everyone wrestling with those bots ;) # 18:19 tiborKatelbach evan would be open for a chat about pump.io ? # 18:20 Arnaud looking for the right command to make the log public # 18:25 RRSAgent grep [-i] [first-last|max] <perl regex> - Search the logs # 18:25 RRSAgent e.g. grep foo, grep 5 bar, grep -i things [case independent] # 18:25 RRSAgent append |mail EMAIL-ADDRESS to email results instead of printing # 18:25 RRSAgent drop action n - remove entry [n] from the list of action items # 18:25 RRSAgent I respond to 'RRSAgent, command' in public and '/msg RRSAgent command' in private # 18:25 RRSAgent Logging Policy: All public output is logged if I am listening except for # 18:25 RRSAgent "action" messages (messages sent with the '/me' command) and # 18:25 RRSAgent any lines starting [off]. All commands to me are logged. # 18:25 RRSAgent My public output is logged but these lines are not searchable. # 18:25 RRSAgent Do RRSAgent, adminhelp for help on administrative commands deiu_, caseorganic, nicolagreco, harry, Shane, RichardLitt and bblfish joined the channel
# 20:28 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed bblfish, nicolagreco, caseorganic and nicolagreco_ joined the channel
cmhobbs evanpro, somewhat related: my self hosting was a bit scattered when I spoke with Tantek. my pump.io and fedwiki instances are now fully functional at https://pump.libernil.net and http://libernil.net
elf-pavlik trying via Skype today and no answer on 1-617-761-6200
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/09-social-irc
tiborKatelbach Zakim: +tiborKatelbach
Loqi tiborKatelbach: tantek left you a message on 8/22 at 1:56pm: yes, telecon dialing in etc. information is at https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Telecons and be sure to be on IRC as well for minutes, additional converstaion, queuing.
sandro PROPOSED: approve minutes from last week https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-02-minutes
jasnell AS2 working draft is located here currently: http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html
oshepherd_ Zakim, +??P20 is me
trackbot Error finding 'jasnell'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.