#social 2014-09-23

2014-09-23 UTC
RichardLitt, englishm, cmhobbs, bblfish, nicolagreco, bblfish_, Shane, pfefferle, harry, pfefferle_, Arnaud, deiu, jasnell and tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good morning #social WG!
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tantek
harry, arnaud are you live in IRC?
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harry
I am as well
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tantek
great!
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harry
I forwarded you all the IEs I could find.
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harry
Tell me if you want to discuss now
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harry
There may be more missing, and I've been trying to get sysreq to fix the system
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harry
but I cannot spend any more time trawling through the archive and arguing with sysreq that their system is broken.
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harry
So, do you want to go through them now?
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harry
or after the call?
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tantek
harry - agreed re: sysreq and their system is broken.
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tantek
I'm happy to raise this to the AB if you like
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harry
My feeling is we should have only *implementers* and that Semantic Web vocabularies do not count as implementaitons.
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harry
Thanks tantek, please do.
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tantek
Here is my proposed alternative process for IE applications:
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tantek
1. create a W3C account to login to the wiki (which requires agreeing to all the W3C IE participation requirements, contribution licensese etc.)
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tantek
3. join IRC here (#social) and ask the chairs to review your application
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Arnaud
I disagree with the "only implementers*
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tantek
ZERO use of email or broken W3C forms
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Arnaud
the w3c too often fails to include users which are hard to get involved
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Arnaud
in my experience users can be very helpful
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tantek
harry I agree that we should ONLY have IEs who are implemeters, and I would add, and are *deploying* *live* on their *own sites* with *public* URLs that they share and we can go verify.
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harry
I agree users could be helpful.
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Arnaud
tantek is back on his soapbox :)
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Arnaud
I guess he never is off though ;-)
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tantek
Arnaud you're wrong about users and involvement etc. especially in the "social web" realm.
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tantek
Very wrong.
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harry
Tantek, we have a number of real working proprietary implementers with large user-bases (IBM, SAP, etc.) thta we can't ignore
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Arnaud
you're entitled to your opinion :)
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tantek
that's how you get endless email garbage threads
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tantek
like most federated/social/decentralized discussions for the past 10 years
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Arnaud
I think you're wrong about requiring people to have a public domain to qualify as expert
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tantek
Arnaud - not my opinion - fact based on email archives of numerous lists for the past decade
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harry
However, the main issue is people who basically denial-of-service attack the WG with weird designs who aren't actual users
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harry
and who are at best hobbyist implementers
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Arnaud
there is plenty of interesting stuff going on behind firewalls
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tantek
Arnaud - domains are cheap - if people can't afford that, they likely aren't real developers or experts.
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Arnaud
the web is not only public
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Arnaud
that's your opinion
pfefferle joined the channel
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tantek
and if they can't code simple static HTML pages to put on their domain they are not experts
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tantek
we don't want people that can only write email
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tantek
we have too many of those already
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harry
+1 tantek
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harry
However, I think we need to keep proprietary implementers
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Arnaud
but we don't need to argue over this
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tantek
Arnaud the non-public web can wait for specs to work for the public web
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harry
So let's say "there must be proof of implementation, ideally in a public URL"
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Arnaud
we already agreed that we could all vouch for invited experts
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tantek
no, not ideally
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tantek
sorry, if you can't ship on a public URL you are not a *web* expert
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tantek
you may be a web *academic* but you're not an expert
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harry
"but exceptions are to made to those with proof of employment at an implementer"
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Arnaud
you're free to use your own criteria, just don't force it on others
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tantek
then that implementer can join W3C
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harry
Tantek, in general we are talking about social products at IBM, Boeing, SAP, etc.
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harry
That's pretty non-academic.
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tantek
harry - those are W3C Members
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Arnaud
tantek, to me that's non sense
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tantek
they don't need IE status
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harry
But we also have non-members, Sugar, Jive, etc.
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harry
with the same issue re IE status.
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tantek
so either you're a W3C member and you just join
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Arnaud
but I'm not going to try and convince you
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Arnaud
I understand that's how you see it
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tantek
OR you're at some other big company and your big company should join W3C
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Arnaud
that's fine
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tantek
OR you're an independent in which case you have to *prove* your expertise
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tantek
we are not going to take your word for it
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harry
In general, for *big* companies, as agreed with W3C Management, we give them 6 months.
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tantek
Arnaud - you seem to have no criteria for expert
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harry
For independents, I agree that we can hold to the "public" case.
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tantek
so I don't see how your opinion is helpful to *choosing* experts
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harry
For W3C member companies or those with 6-month IE status that W3C wants to be member companies, then I am OK with behind firewall products.
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tantek
and saying "that's just your opinion" is not helpful
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tantek
harry, right. either people pay to play, or they ship public to play.
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tantek
very simple.
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harry
Arnaud, what do you think of my suggestion?
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harry
For W3C member companies or those with 6-month IE status that W3C wants to be member companies, we accept behind firewall products, otherwise we will require public URIs and working code.
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harry
Then we should revisit the Invited Experts with this new criteria.
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tantek
I strongly agree
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tantek
either join W3C and pay, or ship public URL
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harry
Well, we give them 6 months to join.
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harry
to see if they find the process useful etc.
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tantek
sure that's fine
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tantek
even I'm not sure if our process is useful :P
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harry
We'll see.
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tantek
so far I'm not optimisitic - e.g. by the amount of schema handwaving occuring on the wiki
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harry
I'm trying to make sure the WG doesn't descend into insanity by virtue of being spammed by people with useless "ontologies" and code no-one uses.
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tantek
harry - yeah, that's already happened to the mailing list
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tantek
it's become useless
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harry
'll see re schema.org
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harry
Well, lets correct that by revisting IEs.
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tantek
I'm trying to keep the wiki sane but it's a lot of work
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tantek
harry - schema-org is a who-cares until someone from the oligopoly (Google/MS/Y!/Yandex) joins
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harry
Those IEs that don't fit the criteria and want to talk vocabularies can be redirected to Social IG
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tantek
because there is no evidence of *any* social web usage of any schema-org action/activity
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tommorris
I think Google et al. may have been burned with betting on OpenSocial and watching it fail.
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harry
I'd like to see Google/MS/Y!/Yandex join.
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harry
Anyways, Arnaud - do you agree with my revisiting the IE requirement?
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tantek
harry me as well. so we can table any discussion of schema-org until they do.
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harry
I say we give people who are already IEs a one-month grace period rather than abruptly kick them out, but we announce this.
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harry
One month should be enough time to set-up working code with a URL in this space for an independent.
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tantek
harry - document your IE criteria immediately on the wiki under your name here: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Invited_Expert_Approval
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harry
Anyways, I don't hear from Arnaud, so let's add this to agenda.
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tantek
rather, *update* your IE criteria per what you said above
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harry
I am strongly against seeing either wiki or mailing list becoming useless.
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tantek
harry, you don't have to wait for Arnaud - go ahead an update your wiki entry
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tantek
I'll add subheads to make it more obvious
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Arnaud
tantek: in my experience people are granted IE status when they are well known entities
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Arnaud
like David Wood in the RDF WG
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tantek
doesn't matter if you're against it - the email list is a lost cause
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harry
I am kind of against this.
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tantek
unless you start drastically kicking people off
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harry
Many well-known entities are, to quote Ben Laurie, "certifiably insane"
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tantek
Arnaud - someone is not a well known entity unless they have a public URL
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tommorris
An even looser criteria: if you are proposing some technology to base this stuff on, there needs to be an actual implementation of it. I've yet to see an implementation of Hydra or a full implementation of LDP.
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harry
Agreed Tommorris
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tantek
if you don't have a personal website you may as well not exist on the social web
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harry
I'm not into vapourware
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Arnaud
you don't even need to ask David why he should be granted IE status
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tommorris
I've seen LDP implementations but none seem to implement Indirect Containers. I'd rather not build on technology that hasn't yet been implemented. ;-)
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harry
I'd rather not build on anything until it has some real working code and real users.
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harry
I think IBM will likely have real working code and real users for their LDP product
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harry
I am not so sure re the other efforts in this space,.
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harry
So, we should just be fair and clear.
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harry
I'll document my criteria and we can discuss it in the call.
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tantek
I have no idea who David Wood is. URL?
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harry
Re Hydra, all effort on it seems to have stopped about a year ago, unlike say schema.org and ActivityStreams 2.0
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tantek
this isn't the "social word of mouth take my word for it known entity" working group
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tantek
this is the "social *web*" working group
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tantek
no public social web URL, no IE status. very simple.
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tantek
harry, I've never even heard of Hydra (except in Captain America and Greek mythology) before seeing it on the wiki
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tommorris
tantek: David Wood = lead author of the book 'Linked Data: Structured data on the Web' (2013, Manning) - http://www.manning.com/dwood/
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tantek
so who bothered to take the time to document Hydra? and why?
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tantek
who is using Hydra actively on their personal public website?
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harry
I think we let the author in as an IE due to his pointing out his work on Github
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harry
I admit we should have looked closer.
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harry
I detest people who try to force their particular hobbyhorse solution (that has no users or industrial uptake) down people's throats
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harry
So let's try to avoid that at all costs. That hurts the WG and it hurts the W3C
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tantek
tommorris - that's a nice URL for a *book*. Do you have a URL for David Wood himself?
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tommorris
tantek: nope.
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tantek
I really don't care if someone has published a dead tree book about some concept.
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tommorris
(I was Googling because I keep track of RDF-land but hadn't heard of him.)
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tantek
If you claim to be an expert about "Structured data on the Web" - let's see your *website* with "Structured data"
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harry
good luck with that :)
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tantek
harry - we can ignore people who don't create websites, because it is irrelevant what they propose - they will never build anything.
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tantek
you're not going to email your way into building a website.
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harry
Anyways, my proposal is we suggest the new improved IE criteria for the WG during this call
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harry
and then we give folks a "one-month" grace period
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Arnaud1
this only reflects one use case
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tantek
harry - I agree, let's make that clear on the call
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harry
Well Arnaud, you gotta come up a good criterion. After seeing what's happened on the mailing list, I think we need to beef up the criteria to actual implementations with actual users.
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Arnaud
what's the "new improved IE criteria"?
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Arnaud
I really don't know why you keep referring to what happend on the list as bad
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tantek
Arnaud, W3C SocialWG participation criteria in general: pay to play, or publish publicly on the social web to play.
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Arnaud
first, there has been little traffic
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Arnaud
tantek: no, I don't agree with that
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Arnaud
that is YOUR criteria
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tantek
Arnaud, you're welcome to handhold the academics and armchair enthusiasts then
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tantek
and harry's now
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tantek
read the log
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tantek
Arnaud - where's YOUR criteria? all you've done so far is reject mine. and rejection of criteria is not critieria itself.
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Arnaud
what log? irc?
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tantek
yes. what other log is there?
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Arnaud
gee, read back the log :)
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Arnaud
don't keep repeating the same thing please
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Arnaud
I have no time for this
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tantek
right, I have no time for academics and armchair enthusiasts
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tantek
you apparently do
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Arnaud
you're free to disagree not to ignore what I'm saying
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Arnaud
speaking of which I have a call to be on now
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tantek
Arnaud if you have criteria then document it on the wiki: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Arnaud
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tantek
so far all you've documented is a rejection of my criteria, which is not criteria
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Arnaud
stop telling me what to do
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tantek
I will keep repeating requests for this until you provide it
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Arnaud
it's in the log, you can put copy/paste in the wiki if you care
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Arnaud
you're good at giving others "clerical actions", so have it your way :)
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harry
This is my proposal:
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harry
I do suggest that Arnaud find alternative criteria.
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tantek
Arnaud - I see no criteria from you in the log - go ahead and provide a permalink to it in the log and I'll happily copy to the wiki: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-09-23
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harry
Being "well-known" is not enough, as lots of unproductive folks are well-known.
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harry
I'd like to keep this WG productive.
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tantek
harry - depends on how we define "well-known"
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tantek
so here's a sample definition
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tantek
when you search for the person's name on Google
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tantek
on the FIRST PAGE you see a result for their PERSONAL WEBSITE
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tantek
if not, they are not "well known
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harry
Tantek, that's too harsh, no-one controls Google.
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tantek
fine, first TWO pages
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harry
We should let them email us working code and real users as evidence thereof.
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tantek
we should let them email us a URL to working code and real users
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tantek
or drop a URL here in IRC
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tantek
frankly, if "well-known" is your criteria, perhaps that's more appropriate for the Social IG
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harry
Exactly, that criteria I think is fine for IG
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harry
just not for WG
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harry
going to get dinner
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harry
nick harry-dinner
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harry-dinner
hehe
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tantek
Social WG should focus on existing implementations and implementers
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tantek
everyone else is welcome to contribute to the Social IG
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rhiaro_
Hola. Apologies I can't make the call this evening, I'll be between trains. I have, however, booked tickets and flights for TPAC. And in less than two weeks, my life will be back to normal and I'll be able to get my shit together and perhaps actually contribute something..
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sandro
I suggest (1) the chairs and staff contact reach consensus on any candidate before they are approved, and (2) approval be based on what needed expertise they bring to the group.
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sandro
There's no need to say anything about running code or "real users".
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tantek
sandro - exactly. and per Harry and my criteria, we (chairs+contact) are not going to reach consensus on any IE application that does not have a public social website. I for one will veto.
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tommorris
tantek, Arnaud: my apologies for non-attendance. I have an office leaving drinks to go to.
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tantek
tommorris - your explicit regrets are noted. thanks.
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elf-pavlik
ekiga echo test sounds ok but Zakim SIP sounds pretty bad, i may need to listen and type on IRC if voice doesn't work
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jasnell
tantek: please define what you mean by "public social website" in this case. What's the exact criteria
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tantek
public - URL you can curl
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tantek
social - content posted which mentions other people or other social web content
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tantek
(mentions via URL reference, not just name)
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tantek
that's a good start
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jasnell
so: any existing implementor of on-premise social software designed to be used behind the firewall is automatically excluded?
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tantek
web = HTML served over HTTP from a URL
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elf-pavlik
tantek i got it back online! $ curl -H "Accept: application/ld+json" https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/
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tantek
jasnell - for IE status - yes. if all you have is behind firewall, you don't get to be an IE.
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tantek
You may still join W3C and participate as a W3C member
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tantek
frankly I have yet to see useful standards feedback from any "only behind firewall" contributors.
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tantek
URLs to exceptions welcome
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jasnell
http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/en/conn, http://www-01.ibm.com/software/integration/business-process-manager/library/documentation/ are two. Both are on-premise software packages designed for behind the firewall usage, both implement Activity Streams in social business scenarios, and both come from a major contributor to this WG
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jasnell
plus, your criteria is not specific enough
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tommorris
I believe IBM are members of the W3C, no?
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jasnell
what URL am I supposed to be able to curl?
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jasnell
if I produce behind the firewall, on-prem software and have a public website to sell my stuff, does that count?
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jasnell
or are we talking about the url of deployed instances of that software?
evanp_ and evanp joined the channel
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jasnell
the point is: if you're going to attempt to put a restriction like "public social website", you need to be clear what you mean
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jasnell
because your definitions are too vague
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tantek
jasnell - irrelevant because IBM is a W3C member.
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evanp
Hi all
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evanp
T-5 minutes
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evanp
elf-pavlik: hello!
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tantek
like I said, criteria for participation in WG is:
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, list
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Zakim
sees XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, WAI_WCAG()11:00AM, Team_(webpayments)15:49Z, SW_HCLS()11:00AM active
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Zakim
sees in schedule T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM, T&S_DNTC()12:00PM, RWC_WAPI()12:00PM, Team_(wpay)15:49Z, WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM, IA_WEBPD()1:00PM
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tantek
EITHER pay to play (W3C member) or publish publicly on the social web to play.
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tantek
ergo if you're a W3C member, you're done. join and participation. no further criteria.
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elf-pavlik
IMO with nice coordiantion with IG and CG we can avoid tensions and still make it possible for everyone interested to participate
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jasnell
what does "publish publicly on the social web" mean?
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wilkie
elf-pavlik: nice work as usual with organization. please, if you want to delegate anything, I can help.
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tantek
jasnell - publish - with permalink
jtauber joined the channel
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Zakim
T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started
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tantek
publicly - anyone can view with a web browser with that permalink
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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tantek
social - some reference to people (with URLs) in your posts, or in-reply-to such posts
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Zakim
+jasnell
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tantek
web - HTML served over HTTP in response to a URL
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evanp
Zakim: +[IPcaller] is evanp
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evanp
I think
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evanp
Ugh I get this wrong every time
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tantek
jasnell - would you like to know more?
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Zakim
+??P7
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, ??P7 is me
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Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
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wilkie
the diplomacy in this working group is bizarre!
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on call?
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Zakim
I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
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evanp
Zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
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Zakim
sorry, evanp, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: [IPcaller], jasnell, elf-pavlik
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evanp
Ugh
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evanp
Zakim, [IPcaller] is evanp
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Zakim
+evanp; got it
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evanp
Hoorah
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jasnell
tantek: imho, that definition is still too vague.
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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elf-pavlik
evanp you turn into real bot whisperer ;)
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jtauber
Zakim, [IPcaller] is jtauber
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Zakim
+jtauber; got it
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tantek
jasnell - please provide an example that you think illustrates the vagueness of that definition
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tantek
s/example/concrete example with URL
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: jasnell - please provide an concrete example with URL that you think illustrates the vagueness of that definition
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jasnell
this WG has not defined what is or is not "social"
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evanp
So I have Antonio Tapiador as the next scribe
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evanp
But I'm not sure he's here
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elf-pavlik
can we stick to single conversation when call starts?
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tantek
is going to be ~5-10min late to the call - will monitor conversation here.
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evanp
tantek: OK
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tommorris
I wish you all luck: based on the IRC logs, I have a funny feeling this call may be rather contentious. I'll be in the pub.
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ShaneHudson
Zakim, what is the code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ShaneHudson
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evanp
tommorris: I'll meet you at 2PM EST B-)
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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Zakim
+Arnaud
jasnell_ joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: evanp, jasnell, elf-pavlik, jtauber, [IPcaller], Arnaud
MarkCrawford joined the channel
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bblfish
zakim, I am IPcaller
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Zakim
ok, bblfish, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
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Arnaud
tommorris: can we trade places? :)
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Zakim
+??P12
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evanp
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
On the phone I see evanp, jasnell, elf-pavlik, jtauber, [IPcaller], Arnaud, ??P12
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ShaneHudson
Zakim, ??P12 is me
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Zakim
+ShaneHudson; got it
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Zakim
+ +1.703.670.aaaa
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: evanp, jasnell, elf-pavlik, jtauber, [IPcaller], Arnaud, ShaneHudson, +1.703.670.aaaa
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evanp
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs 411
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RRSAgent
trackbot, access must be one of public, group-strint-submission, offline-webapps-workshop-program-committee, group-webmobile-chairs, group-rdf-val-pc, alumni, group-payment-workshop-submissions, wstar, group-digipub-chairs, member, memberSearchers, group-csv-chairs, wsridirectors, i18n, valid, group-strint-pc, webcrypto, offices, w3f, mlw, group-wot-workshop-pc, team, webandtv-moderators, ab, group-share-psi, group-payment-workshop-pc, memberEditors, w[CUT]
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RRSAgent
01303, or a Community Group ACL name
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
Lloyd_Fassett joined the channel
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 23 September 2014
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Arnaud
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, Arnaud
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evanp
who's on the call
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
I notice T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has restarted
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Zakim
sees on the phone: evanp, jasnell, elf-pavlik, jtauber, [IPcaller], Arnaud, ShaneHudson, +1.703.670.aaaa, [IPcaller.a], +1.503.567.aabb
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evanp
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
On the phone I see evanp, jasnell, elf-pavlik, jtauber, [IPcaller], Arnaud, ShaneHudson, +1.703.670.aaaa, [IPcaller.a], +1.503.567.aabb
MarkCrawford joined the channel
#
aaronpk
Zakim: aabb is aaronpk
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, aabb is aaronpk
#
Zakim
+aaronpk; got it
#
evanp
scribe: jtauber
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aaronpk
i always forget the comma
#
Arnaud
chair: evanp
#
wilkie
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
#
Zakim
+wilkie; got it
#
jasnell_
tantek: so, in your opinion "social" only means "public 'posts' with @mentions to other people" and to be a valid example, those posts must be publicly accessible?
#
wilkie
I think
#
harry-dinner
Zakim, what's the code?
#
Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry-dinner
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jtauber
approval of last week's minutes
#
evanp
+1
#
jtauber
+1
#
elf-pavlik
+0 (didn't have chance to read :( )
#
jtauber
evanp: minutes approved
#
harry
Skype issues, having to reset, be back in a minute
#
jtauber
evanp: registration for TPAC: important for people to register to keep room
#
wilkie
I don't think I can afford that trip :(
#
Arnaud
the right way to scribe this is: resolved: minutes of 16 september approved
#
Loqi
it'll be ok
#
jtauber
Arnaud: thanks
#
Arnaud
resolved: minutes of 16 september approved
#
jtauber
is still learning
#
Arnaud
no problem, we all had to! :)
#
Zakim
+Sandro
#
Zakim
+ +1.541.410.aacc
#
elf-pavlik
evanp: question of use cases...
#
harry
note that use-cases are in scope of Social IG
#
harry
*not* Social WG
#
harry
thanks!
#
elf-pavlik
+1 harry
#
Arnaud
the right way to scribe change of topic: topic: xxx
#
jtauber
topic: question of use cases
#
Arnaud
thanks
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
evanp
Zakim, ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
I see no one on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
+1 to elf
#
Zakim
sees wilkie on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack wilkie
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees wilkie on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
#
Zakim
+wilkie; got it
#
evanp
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees wilkie on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees wilkie, Arnaud on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
Zakim, [IPcaller] is bblfish
#
Zakim
sorry, wilkie, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: evanp, jasnell, elf-pavlik, jtauber, wilkie, Arnaud, ShaneHudson, +1.703.670.aaaa, wilkie.a, aaronpk, Sandro, +1.541.410.aacc
harry joined the channel
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wilkie
Zakim, wilkie is bblfish
#
Zakim
+bblfish; got it
#
harry
Zakim, what's the code?
#
Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
#
Zakim
sees wilkie, Arnaud on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack wilkie
#
Zakim
sees Arnaud on the speaker queue
#
sandro
q+ to say a few illustrative use cases might be a reasonable compromise
#
Zakim
sees Arnaud, sandro on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees Arnaud, sandro, harry on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
sorry
#
evanp
ack Arnaud
#
Zakim
sees sandro, harry on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
+[IPcaller]
#
harry
Zakim, IPcaller is hhalpin
#
Zakim
+hhalpin; got it
#
jasnell
At the very least, this WG ought to define: (A) what is a "Social System" and (B) what constitutes "Social Data"
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud: appreciates concern about timeline, but we don't need to make it a huge effort
#
wilkie
are there existing use case analysis??
#
harry
Yes, please see Social XG
markus joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
Arnaud: agrees with elf, picking specific use cases we care about addressing
#
harry
rather infinite use-case documents.
#
jtauber
elf-pavlik: you keep beating me to it :-)
#
harry
We define all of that in the Social XG report.
#
markus
zakim, code?
#
Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), markus
#
Zakim
+??P4
#
elf-pavlik
jtauber back to you :)
#
markus
zakim, ??P4 is me
#
Zakim
+markus; got it
#
evanp
Zakim: q?
#
evanp
Zakim, q?
#
Zakim
I see sandro, harry on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees sandro, harry on the speaker queue
#
harry
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
evanp
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sandro, you wanted to say a few illustrative use cases might be a reasonable compromise
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
bblfish
zakim, who am I?
#
Zakim
I don't understand your question, bblfish.
#
Zakim
harry, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (34%)
#
harry
Zakim, mute Sandro
#
Zakim
Sandro should now be muted
#
harry
Zakim, unmute Sandro
#
Zakim
Sandro should no longer be muted
#
harry
why is there so much background noise?
#
wilkie
harry: yes. I've read that. exactly. it seems the challenge is not coming up with the use cases again and again or refining them but rather now applying knowledge to create a flexible social vocab/syntax with what we have
#
aaronpk
can someone add : as an alternate for , in Zakim? or where is the source code so I can hack it up?
#
harry
Yes, so do it in the Social IG
#
harry
We have technical and implementation work to do here.
#
jtauber
sandro: what are people's elevator pitch for involvement in this group?
#
wilkie
harry: +1
#
jtauber
sandro: capture use cases lazily when we disagree
#
bblfish
+1 for that
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
tiborkat joined the channel
#
jtauber
harry: use cases are off topic for this group and use case discussion should move to IG
#
Zakim
+??P21
#
Arnaud
if there is already a list we can point to and adopt that's great
#
tantek
zakim, p21 is tantek
#
Zakim
sorry, tantek, I do not recognize a party named 'p21'
#
jtauber
harry: happy for some use cases to be attached to spec
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
tantek
zakim, ??p21 is tantek
#
Zakim
+tantek; got it
#
wilkie
is the social XG use cases linked on the wg wiki?
#
jtauber
harry: use cases for spec should be drafted first by editor of spec
#
tantek
catches up on the log
#
ShaneHudson
+1 for what harry is saying
#
evanp
Zakim, q?
#
Zakim
I see jasnell on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
jtauber
jasnell: we don't have a shared definition of what a social system is
#
bblfish
zakim, who is making noise
#
Zakim
I don't understand 'who is making noise', bblfish
#
evanp
tantek: mute please
#
Zakim
+tiborKatelbach
#
harry
PROPOSAL: Use-cases happen in Social IG. Editors may add "use cases" to their specs and can argue those later.
#
evanp
your keyboard is too loud
#
tiborkat
zakim: +tiborkat
#
harry
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
harry
whoever is typing?
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
harry, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tantek (60%), tiborKatelbach (9%)
#
evanp
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
jtauber
harry: we spent a long time working on definitions in incubator
#
MarkCrawford
q+
#
Zakim
sees MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
#
jtauber
harry: definition discussion can take place in IG
#
harry
Move the XG's use-cases and definition discussion to the IG.
#
jtauber
evanp: possible resolution: accept XG use cases and move discussion to IG
#
evanp
+1
#
tiborkat
+1
#
MarkCrawford
+1
#
jtauber
+1
#
Zakim
sees MarkCrawford, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
markus
+0
#
tantek
+1 with ok to add more use-cases two w3.org/wiki/socialwg
#
tantek
s/two/to
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: +1 with ok to add more use-cases to w3.org/wiki/socialwg
#
evanp
ack MarkCrawford
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
Need time to review XG definitions again prior to deciding
#
harry
Sandro and Henry Story both dissented.
#
harry
And Elf.
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, sandro on the speaker queue
#
jtauber
MarkCrawford: use cases is primary deliverable of IG
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, sandro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
jtauber
MarkCrawford: more than happy to direct IG on particular set of use cases the WG would find useful in short term
#
evanp
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees sandro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
harry
I can't hear what bblfish is saying, can he type it?
#
jtauber
i can't hear bblfish to scribe
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
evanp
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Use_cases <-- I added a link to the XG use cases
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: bblfish (22%), hhalpin (8%)
#
wilkie
evanp: so did I!
#
sandro
harry: the final report wasn't a list of use cases [ I think]
#
harry
bblfish, we can't hear you
#
harry
Zakim, mute bblfish
#
Zakim
bblfish should now be muted
#
harry
Please type your point bblfish.
#
elf-pavlik
it sounded like sand storm ;)
#
Zakim
sees sandro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
harry
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
bblfish
zakim, unmute
#
Zakim
I don't understand 'unmute', bblfish
#
harry
bblfish, we couldn't hear you
#
jtauber
sandro: difference between listing use case and accepting use case
pfefferle joined the channel
#
jtauber
sandro: all for IG enumerating possible use cases but WG doesn't want to accept all use cases as requirements
#
harry
just type your point into IRC bblfish
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, harry on the speaker queue
#
bblfish
my point was that the http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport is not a list of use cases. That is mostly just a list of existing technologies
#
tantek
+1 on accepting a *subset* of XG use-cases per sandro clarification
#
tantek
thank you sandro
#
harry
Sorry, bblifsh, you are wrong
#
harry
neutral use-cases are here:
#
evanp
bblfish: sorry, when I said "XG use cases" I meant http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/RequirementsAndUseCases-WorkArea
#
bblfish
and I agree with Sandro that we have to here agree on the use cases, plus we need to narrow them down to what this group is doing
#
evanp
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
harry
again sound issues
#
sandro
zakim, who is making noise?
#
harry
elf-pavlik, we should type it in.
#
harry
we can't hear you
#
Zakim
sandro, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: evanp (44%)
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
at this point we might as well do IRC-only conferences
#
evanp
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
Aside: I am opposed to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-23#Meeting_with_Schema.org_team_.40TPAC without having any such representative join the wg. All schema-org members are W3C members thus they should join the socialWG if they want to participate in the meeting.
#
jtauber
harry: compromise: let IG work out use cases
#
tantek
+1 to let IG work out use-cases
#
elf-pavlik
i -1 since i didn't ask about heavy pile of use cases, but one or two we can excercise in our conversations
#
bblfish
The deliverables are very vague harry
#
jasnell
tantek: +1, definitely agree
#
elf-pavlik
so this resolution didn't address my proposal
#
Zakim
-elf-pavlik
#
MarkCrawford
We can stage our work in the IG so that we are only looking for a few related to the focus of the WG as a first step
#
tantek
jasnell - for clarification in minutes do you mean in reference to the schema-org special meeting proposal?
#
jasnell
proposal: give us a week to review the XG final report, defer this conversation for next week
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
+??P7
#
tantek
+1 harry to IG being used for use-case discussion
#
ShaneHudson
The purpose of the IG is for this exact thing
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, ??P7 is me
#
Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
#
tantek
if you want to bring a use-case to the WG, you MUST provide a URL to your use-case documentation.
#
evanp
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
unmutes bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
otherwise you're not done discussing it, and continue on IG list
#
harry
bblfish, we have a charter than more than 30 W3C members agreed to.
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
tantek
who is scribe?
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, jasnell, harry on the speaker queue
#
tantek
I don't see any minuting happening.
#
jtauber
bblfish: there has to be more open and agreement about what the use cases are before we start spec
#
harry
No, the Interest Group has official status and is not open to everyone.
#
harry
It requires an IE status. It just has no patent commits.
#
harry
You should read the charters bblfish.
#
jtauber
bblfish: WG isn't bound by IG
#
elf-pavlik
harry, CG then most peole can join
#
Arnaud
the problem is more about scope, the IG is much more open ended
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, jasnell, harry on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
I think it's reasonable to have the IG develop use cases
#
Arnaud
but the WG ought to agree on which ones are relevant to this WG
#
harry
So, we let the development of use-cases happen in IG
#
evanp
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, harry on the speaker queue
#
harry
and then they bring them up to WG when mature.
#
harry
Makes sense.
#
sandro
Possible proposal: postpone discussion of use cases, except when they illustrate a design decision
#
jtauber
elf-pavlik: asking for some simple scenarios not complete use cases
#
Zakim
-ShaneHudson
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
+??P3
#
MarkCrawford
If you tell me for which expected functionality of the spec you want use cases, we will get those for you.
#
ShaneHudson
Zakim, ??P3 is me
#
Zakim
+ShaneHudson; got it
#
tantek
SWAT0 and its components are a good starting point, and quite challenging :)
#
evanp
-1
#
elf-pavlik
let's write it down before voting
#
jtauber
evanp: what's feeling around single use case we use to measure different systems
#
tantek
30 seconds? no chance ;)
#
tantek
(and I helped write it)
#
tantek
hey that was close! nicely done evanp :)
#
sandro
zakim, who is making noise?
#
Zakim
sandro, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
#
tantek
+1 evanp starting with SWAT0 as our first/single/primary use-case
#
sandro
+0.5 starting with SWAT0
#
ShaneHudson
+1 That is very clear about how it needs to work
#
bblfish
the swat one seems better
#
harry
Addition: No other use-case discussion.
#
harry
That happens in the IG.
#
MarkCrawford
+1
#
jtauber
+1
#
ShaneHudson
+1 to the addition
#
markus
+0.8... this seems to be too broad for me... where's the limit? access control, login, ...
#
aaronpk
+1 for SWAT0 since it actually covers a wide range of needed behavior
#
tiborkat
+1
#
evanp
+1
#
harry
believe it's resolved.
#
bblfish
+1 for swat0, but not for limiting to that.
#
tantek
+1 for swat0 and limiting to that in this WG until IG has more to contribute
#
jtauber
do we scribe "resolved" for straw polls?
#
tantek
jtauber no, straw polls are not resolutions.
#
jtauber
thought so
#
tantek
jtauber that's up to the chair to make an official resolution
#
jasnell
-1... it ought to be up to the chairs when and whether to reintroduce use cases to the discussion
#
markus
my vote doesn't take harry's addition into consideration
#
tantek
jtauber the chair usually takes straw poll results as *input* to making a resolution.
#
markus
strongly object to that comment
#
sandro
+1 <jasnell> -1... it ought to be up to the chairs when and whether to reintroduce use cases to the discussion
#
bblfish
but you seem to have decided already what the specs are harry
#
harry
RESOLUTION: SWAT0 is initial test case.
#
sandro
s/test/use/
#
Loqi
sandro meant to say: +1 <jasnell> -1... it ought to be up to the chairs when and whether to reintroduce use cases to the discussion
#
Arnaud
err... harry we have an objection! no resolution
#
ShaneHudson
Arnaud: Wasn't that for the addition?
#
jasnell
link for SWAT0?
#
jtauber
evanp: ask IG to provide additional use cases before TPAC
#
tantek
harry, RESOLUTION: SWAT0 is the initial use-case
#
tantek
*use* case
#
elf-pavlik
gets bit confused :(
#
Loqi
aww, cheer up
#
Arnaud
ok, I'm good with that resolution
#
harry
PROPOSAL: Only the chairs can decide when to introduce new use-cases into the discussion, and then the rest of the use-case discussion should happen in the IG or be off-topic
#
bblfish
thanks sandro for spotting that
#
tantek
we can start talking test cases when we we have one or more drafts being implemented on the way to a CR
#
tantek
do we have any such working drafts?
#
harry
RESOLUTION: SWAT0 is the initial use-case
#
harry
Although at some point would like to see test-cases :)
#
jtauber
evanp: reasonable to have social data syntax use cases for TPAC?
#
sandro
Harry, it's already up to the chairs to decide that. Don't limit their power via the Exception Proves The Rule.
#
harry
Sandro, that's a proposal to clarify the scope.
#
jtauber
MarkCrawford: happy to ensure focus of IG is requirements of WG over next few weeks
#
elf-pavlik
i propose to move it to mailing list and go on with other agenda points soon
#
evanp
+1
#
jasnell
alternative PROPOSAL: Anyone can propose a use case discussion on the mailing list or wiki but the chairs will decide whether the use case is put on the agenda/queued for discussion.
#
harry
And ask people to move use-case discussion to IG until appropriate, as judged by the WG chairs.
#
Arnaud
note to scribe: please, clean up the mess with all the different "RESOLUTION", and make sure only the real one is labelled as such in the minutes
#
harry
jasnell, the WG mailing list is not appropriate for an open-ended use-case discussion by anyone. That's why we have the IG.
#
evanp
Should we ask for initial use cases for social data syntax by TPAC (end October)?
#
harry
We need to clarify what forum is useful for which kind of discussion.
#
ShaneHudson
From the IG?
#
evanp
ShaneHudson: yes
#
jasnell
harry: I didn't say open ended use-case discussion. I said propose a use case discussion that the chairs can choose to accept or not
#
Arnaud
harry, but anyone can propose the WG adopts a use case developed in the IG
#
jtauber
straw poll: Should we ask for initial use cases for social data syntax from the IG by TPAC (end October)?
#
bblfish
+1 but it's still something that the group has to then agree to here
#
tantek
+1 with deadline the *Tuesday* before TPAC so we have a chance to review
#
jtauber
+1
#
jasnell
+1 for asking the IG for use cases
#
harry
Yes, but you have that discussion on the IG list, not the WG list. When you think you have something ready after discussion at the IG, then you can propose to the WG.
#
markus
+1 if the IG is fine with that
#
MarkCrawford
+1
#
harry
We need to keep signal-to-noise ratio on WG mailing list and wiki better.
#
harry
And we need more people to contribute to the IG
#
ShaneHudson
I agree with Tantek that it would be good to have it ready before TPAC to review
#
jtauber
yep
#
jtauber
resolved: ask IG for initial use cases for social data syntax before TPAC
#
tantek
aside: federatedsocialweb (dot) net - where all SWAT0 was initially documented, expired and has been taken over by a spammer :( :( :(
#
Loqi
it'll be ok
#
harry
RESOLUTION: Initial use cases from the IG for social data syntax by TPAC
#
harry
agenda+ IE status
#
Zakim
notes agendum 6 added
#
harry
agenda?
#
Zakim
sees 2 items remaining on the agenda:
#
Zakim
5. AOB [from hhalpin]
#
Zakim
6. IE status [from harry]
#
elf-pavlik
finds Loqi not configured for telocons
#
bblfish
what is a "direction for a sodical data syntax?"
#
jtauber
straw poll: ready to start deciding direction for social data syntax
#
harry
+1 for jasnell's efforts to align to schema.org without using the same URIs
#
Zakim
sees harry, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
tantek
-1 I still don't understand what this has to do with AS2 or anything. vocabs yes. but syntax?
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, jasnell, tantek on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, tantek on the speaker queue
#
tantek
q+ to oppose working with schema-org without documentation of concrete real world *socialweb* usage, and having schema-org companies joing the wg
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, tantek on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: requir JSON-LD as minimal requirement
#
bblfish
+1 for JSON-LD
#
tantek
-1 for requiring JSON-LD
#
tantek
+1 for JSON-LD as an *option*
#
harry
We could always have the @context as an "option"
#
elf-pavlik
+1 require JSON-LD
#
harry
That is what AS2.0 wants.
#
wilkie
+1 for JSON-LD
#
harry
s/wants/did
#
Loqi
harry meant to say: That is what AS2.0 did.
#
markus
+1 for JSON-LD.. obviously
#
Zakim
sees tantek, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
sandro
+100 jasnell redefine activity streams as an ontology, and look at alignment with schema.org. no strong feelings about json-ld.
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: explains as:Activity vs as:Actions
#
tantek
sandro by ontology do you mean vocab?
#
harry
Also, I'd prefer to use the term "vocabulary" rather than "ontology" lest we sound silly
#
markus
doesn't make sense to make it optional.. we can nevertheless ensure that JSON-only clients can process documents
#
sandro
yes, I mean vocab. James used the word "ontology", and vocab owl:sameAs ontology.
#
elf-pavlik
+1 markus
#
evanp
Zakim, q?
#
Zakim
I see tantek, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees tantek, bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
tiborkat
+1 for json-ld
#
evanp
ack tantek
#
Zakim
tantek, you wanted to oppose working with schema-org without documentation of concrete real world *socialweb* usage, and having schema-org companies joing the wg
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
my proposal was NOT to align with schema.org. my proposal is to define AS2 as an ontology, required JSON-LD as MUST implement.
#
harry
Notes that I'd like to see schema.org folks come to face-to-face to discussion.
#
harry
So I'd rather do that than BOF
#
harry
on Thursday, which conflicts with things.
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
harry, i would like to discuss it *today*
#
jasnell
real world example: github has adopted schema.org/Actions
#
elf-pavlik
tantek: asks to find real world examples of schema.org uses
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, github - social coding
#
jtauber
tantek: without social web usage of schema.org or particpating schema.org companies in the WG, schema.org discussion should be out of scope
#
evanp
Zakim, q?
#
Zakim
I see bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
agreed with tantek
#
ShaneHudson
I also agree with tantek's concerns
#
harry
I think we already have disagreement over JSON-LD from tantek.
#
jtauber
bblfish: JSON-LD as a basic syntax
#
harry
Everyone is happy with it as an option though.
#
tantek
I am opposed to requiring *any* particular syntax from this WG
#
elf-pavlik
-1 harry
#
tantek
I am *for* providing syntax *options*
#
jtauber
bblfish: don't mix syntax with semantics/pragmatics
#
elf-pavlik
also markus just raised concern about optional requirement
#
harry
Note that the charter requires JSON as a basis.
#
tantek
-1 on JSON-LD as a required basis
#
jasnell
the AS2 ontology approach allows us to use JSON-LD and HTML5 syntax options, and also allows turtle
#
elf-pavlik
evanp: we had straw pool 2 weeks ago and JSON-LD had big support
#
ShaneHudson
+1 harry, JSON as a basis with JSON-LD as an option
#
harry
Discussion of XML alternatives etc. are out of scope
#
Arnaud
harry, are you saying that JSON-LD doesn't qualify as JSON?
#
harry
Happy to bring those up in the IG.
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
harry
No, JSON-LD is a subset of JSON.
#
markus
+q to ask tantek why he objects to use JSON-LD
#
Zakim
sees harry, markus on the speaker queue
#
harry
So we're happy to have JSON-LD either as a requirement (if group gets consensus) or as an option.
#
jtauber
evanp: many proposals in front of us use JSON-LD
#
Zakim
sees harry, markus, sandro on the speaker queue
#
sandro
q+ to ask how tantek is thinking the "Social Data Syntax" can work without having a required syntax
#
tantek
I object to *requiring* JSON-LD
grantmacken joined the channel
#
jasnell
no, JSON-LD is JSON with some additional bits. JSON-LD can be parsed as JSON without requiring any of the JSON-LD processing model
#
Zakim
sees harry, markus, sandro, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
sandro
Ah, Tantek wants to allow microformats
#
wilkie
some systems only use xml :)
#
markus
markus: tantek, could you please elaborate on why you object to json-ld and what you mean by making it optional
#
elf-pavlik
JSON-LD also allows microformats as vocab
#
Zakim
sees harry, markus, sandro, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jtauber
tantek: JSON-LD can be documented options but we should allow HTML5 + microformats
#
Zakim
sees harry, markus, sandro, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees markus, sandro, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
(side note that HTML5 + microformats can be turned into a JSON document via the parsing rules)
#
jtauber
harry: charter says JSON is requirement
#
wilkie
I feel that argument means RSS should be our leading example because of its prevalence heh
#
sandro
Social Data Syntax
#
sandro
A JSON-based syntax to allow the transfer of social information, such as status updates, across differing social systems. One input to this deliverable is ActivityStreams 2.0.
#
elf-pavlik
evanp, can you ask for extra 15min time for this call please?
#
tantek
there is canonical JSON output from microformats parsers
#
evanp
elf-pavlik: will do
#
bblfish
I kind of agree with the points about RDFa/microformats but then we can make it simple: The protocol could be put in terms of RDF then
#
Zakim
sees markus, sandro, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
a minimal JSON syntax can be defined and adopted that is IDENTICAL to the serialization that JSON-LD provides
#
Zakim
sees markus, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
markus
q-
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry
The charter is pretty old :)
#
harry
I'm very pro being implementation driven.
#
sandro
tantek: Since the charter was written, it's become mistaken, as we now have microformat-providing servers working well
#
harry
We should get back to schema.org folks invite for TPAC.
#
elf-pavlik
evanp, any objections to extending call for another 15min
#
jtauber
evanp: extend 15 minutes
#
tantek
+1 to extending the call
#
sandro
+1 extending
#
bblfish
no objections
#
jtauber
+1
#
markus
no objection
#
tiborkat
+1
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
ShaneHudson
There is no reason why json and microformats can not both be options, they would work the same way more or less (as microformats can be parsed as JSON anyway as pointed out)
#
tantek
s/mistaken/out-of-date
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: +1 to extending the call
#
evanp
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
sandro
ShaneHudson, that would require clients to parse both
#
tantek
sandro - I corrected myself, "mistaken" was mis-spoke by me :)
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
tantek
why put something simpler (microformats) in terms of something more complex? (RDFa)
#
elf-pavlik
I think we *need* more conversation over mailin list before we discuss it during teleconf
#
jtauber
bblfish: linked data principles whether in JSON-LD, RDFa microformats
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, i find RDFa simler
#
evanp
q?
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
tantek
disagree that it's difficult for servers. more personal social websites are serving HTML5+microformats than RDFa.
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
Note: We already agreed previously to split Activity Streams 2.0 into separate Syntax and Vocabulary. The Vocabulary would define the Activity ontology. This vocabulary can be represented in JSON, JSON-LD, HTML, or any other syntax.
#
evanp
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
harry
The last thing I want to revisit is the microformat vs. RDFa vs. microdata debate.
#
tantek
harry - right
#
elf-pavlik
evanp, I would like to ask last 5 minutes to discuss *Meeting with Schema.org team @TPAC*
#
tantek
and I want to avoid making that kind of decision politically for sure
#
jtauber
sandro: one format or variety of interchangable formats?
#
evanp
elf-pavlik: thanks, I will try to get us to that
#
tantek
as opposed to by documented adoption
#
harry
We have chosen ONE required format, JSON, in the charter. Other syntaxes are optional.
#
jasnell
What I suggest is: At a minimum, to address the charter requirement, we require a minimum-to-implement JSON serialization that is compatible with JSON-LD but does not require an implementer to use the JSON-LD processing model to understand
#
jtauber
evanp: charter does specify JSON
#
bblfish
I think the social web is so big, that in then end you have to accomodate a few different syntaxes. But we MUST agree on the model
#
harry
+1 and not a required @context element or "@" namespaces, although I hope folks will use this.
englishm joined the channel
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
-ShaneHudson
#
evanp
ack aaronpk
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
markus
tantek, you stressed several time how strong the adoption is... do you have a pointer to any data... I'm curious
#
jtauber
evanp: abstract vocabulary won't be enough for API / protocol parts of scope
#
tantek
for the "required" JSON syntax in the charter, I would propose the canonical JSON output of microformats parsers: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#simple_microformats_2_examples
#
jasnell
We can accomplish this using a properly defined @context
#
Zakim
+??P0
#
ShaneHudson
Zakim, ??P0 is me
#
Zakim
+ShaneHudson; got it
#
wilkie
tantek: will you just veto a non-microformat direction regardless of discussion and charter? I think JSON-LD and microformats are both very good and can be both used without too much trouble.
#
tantek
markus - yes, documented on w3.org/wiki/socialwg documents and in detail on indiewebcamp.com
#
jtauber
aaronpk: HTML + microformat is just syntax
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
harry
Note that 99% of RDFa use is Facebook's OGP tag, which uses it incorrectly
#
evanp
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
harry - note - not *socialweb*
#
markus
tantek, thanks.. but it's quite hard to find something in the wiki... I'll give it a try
#
tantek
wilkie - I will oppose *requiring* JSON-LD
#
tantek
that's a political decision
#
tantek
not data/evidence driven
#
jasnell
tantek: what about my suggestion?
#
tantek
so is requiring JSON - but we unfortunately froze that into the charter
#
wilkie
I'm not sure that's true, nor do I see a lot of data on anything
#
harry
It was felt in chartering that ONE syntax was needed, and JSON was kinda simple.
#
evanp
Zakim q?
#
wilkie
I'm pretty sure JSON is widely supported haha
#
evanp
Zakim, q?
#
Zakim
I see no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
harry - serving JSON is *extra work* = not simple
#
aaronpk
and XML was widely supported 10 years ago, so...
#
ShaneHudson
Focusing on the actual model will avoid problems with JSON one day going out of fashion (in the same way as XML)
#
elf-pavlik
sandro: how about developin library which will bridge all exisitng indie web deployments into new standard we recommend
#
tantek
whereas *everyone* on the *web* has to serve HTML
#
tantek
so the *simplest* approach was to just add microformats to that HTML
#
sandro
sandro: I'm hoping folks using microformats can be happy with this JSON-social-data-syntax via some conversion libraries
#
Arnaud
queue related commands don't need to prefix with "Zakim,"
#
elf-pavlik
i will help with microformat json to json-ld tools
#
MarkCrawford
Unfortunately, I have another call. Open question - what communities would we be freezing out of our spec if we choose JSON?
#
tantek
here's some JSON if that's what you're looking for: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://tantek.com/
#
Zakim
- +1.703.670.aaaa
#
harry
There are real existing microformat+HTML communities
#
harry
There are to my knowledge, no widespread usage of non-JSON or microformat+HTML software for federated social.
#
evanp
+1
#
sandro
PROPOSED: We accept AS2.0, modified to be JSON-LD, as our starting point
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
markus
+1
#
tantek
to be clear, I am very strongly *for* publishing AS2.0 in this WG
#
bblfish
+1 for now
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell
#
jtauber
0
#
tantek
I am *against* picking *a* social syntax
#
bblfish
Essentially that proposal interests me
#
Zakim
sees harry, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
tantek
based on these current proposals
#
Zakim
sees harry, jasnell, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
tiborkat
+1
#
evanp
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
is going to have to drop off in a couple minutes
#
sandro
PROPOSED: Publish JSON-LD version of AS 2.0 (details to be confirmed) as a FPWD (without exactly resolving the idea of it being "the one and only")
#
evanp
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
tantek
PROPOSE: Publish AS2.0 as spec'd as *implemented* (not JSON-LD)
#
tantek
implementations > JSON-LD
#
aaronpk
aren't there are already implemenations of AS 2.0 without JSON-LD?
#
tantek
precisely
#
evanp
aaronpk: I don't believe so
#
evanp
AS 1.0 is widely used
#
tantek
that's my point. let's publish the spec as implemented, not some future hypothetical
#
evanp
q?
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry
maybe right this proposal down jasnell
#
evanp
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
evanp - jasnell has documented implementations on the socialwg wiki
#
Arnaud
maybe the question should be: should our JSON serialization be compatible with JSON-LD?
#
jasnell
yes, there are implementations of AS2
#
elf-pavlik
harry: i prefer Turtle over JSON-LD but it bridges to RDF world
#
jasnell
they are not as broad as AS1
#
elf-pavlik
s/harry/bblfish/
#
Loqi
elf-pavlik meant to say: bblfish: i prefer Turtle over JSON-LD but it bridges to RDF world
#
evanp
jasnell: thanks, useful data point
#
jtauber
thanks elf-pavlik :-)
#
elf-pavlik
+1 bblfish
#
Arnaud
we should leave the question of required syntax off the table for now, there is clearly interest in different serializations
#
jasnell
Arnaud: +1
#
elf-pavlik
+1 Arnaud
#
evanp
Arnaud: I think we need at least one preferred serialization for use with our other deliverables
#
ShaneHudson
+1 Arnaud
#
markus
arnaud, appart from tantek's -1 I just saw +1s to Sandro's proposal
#
tantek
I propose people vote with their implementations and their sites. If you believe in a syntax, publish it at your personal site URL. And better yet, consume it.
#
markus
s/appart/apart/
#
Loqi
markus meant to say: arnaud, apart from tantek's -1 I just saw +1s to Sandro's proposal
#
tantek
then document it
#
harry
PROPOSAL: Get a new draft of ActivityStream 2.0 for discussion at TPAC f2f
#
bblfish
What happened to the proposal of Activity Streams with JSON-LD?
#
harry
That's neutral on the JSON vs. JSON-LD debate btw.
#
evanp
PROPOSED: Name jasnell as editor of AS 2.0 and request a draft for TPAC
#
markus
what's the "new draft"?
#
harry
That was rejected by Tantek, and we need to clarify.
#
jasnell
there editor's draft is available on github already
#
jasnell
it's available for anyone to review
#
tantek
I'd like to see a FPWD of AS2 *before* TPAC
#
jasnell
the pre-tpac version will be available in a branch before TPAC
#
tantek
jasnell - please provide URL to current editor's draft for the minutes
#
jasnell
at least two weeks before tpac
#
Zakim
-aaronpk
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell, will you make one following your last email?
#
evanp
ack tantek
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bblfish
I am confused about what the proposal is
#
jasnell
the activitystreams2.html and activitystreams2-vocabulary.html documents are the ones that will be ready by TPAC
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
that was decided several weeks ago wasn't it?
#
markus
jasnell, is activitystreams2.html already up to date?
#
jasnell
there was a proposal and a resolution that a FPWD would be ready by TPAC
#
ShaneHudson
Yes I think that was already resolved
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
evanp
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
gotta go
#
Arnaud
we're beyond the extended time...
#
Zakim
sees harry, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
harry
Arnaud, are you OK with schema.org people attending the f2f or a section thereof at TPAC?
#
Zakim
-Arnaud
#
evanp
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
tantek
I see no issues with that comparison elf-pavlik - schema vocabs are not worthy of comparison to AS2 per above issues of schema-org
#
tantek
jasnell - I'm trying to make progress on publishing AS2
#
sandro
Harry, I have seen zero objection to JSON-LD. That was NOT Tantek's objection.
#
elf-pavlik
thanks harry, i take my question to jasnell back
#
jasnell
I am too
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, tantek on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
can we write down this proposal on IRC
#
sandro
+1 invite schema.org folks to attend whatever they want, and sent aside some specific time, too
#
ShaneHudson
I also need to go, sorry. I agree with inviting them
#
jasnell
-1 for schema.org joining the WG session *unless* it's going to be more than a sales pitch. There needs to be a specific technical agenda
#
elf-pavlik
i will reply to public-vocabs with link to log after this call
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, tantek, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
-ShaneHudson
#
evanp
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees tantek, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees tantek, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
tantek
-1 for special treatment of schema-org during TPAC
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
harry
Sandro, there was objection for JSON-LD being a requirement.
#
evanp
-1
#
tantek
schema-org members are all W3C members. ergo they can join the WG.
#
jtauber
-1
#
sandro
harry, from whom?
#
tantek
It's been over a year since the osfw3c workshop
#
elf-pavlik
i don't see clear proposal writen down on irc while people do +/-1
#
Zakim
sees tantek, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
sandro
+1 lets learn what they have to offer
#
evanp
ack tantek
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
harry
PROPOSAL: For a limited technical session with schema.org f2f at TPAC?
#
jtauber
tantek: for editor incorporating other specs in his research, against special treatment for schema.org as they can just join WG
#
evanp
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
jtauber
tantek: unless there are real world examples, let's not spend time discussing other formats
#
harry
Sandro, the objection from JSON-LD being a requirement came from Tantek. He was happy for it to be an option.
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
sandro
Harry, you are completely misrepresenting what Tantek is saying.
#
tantek
no I think Harry got it right. I'm opposed to JSON-LD requirement. I am *for* documenting a JSON-LD option.
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
harry
Sorry sandro, but that's how it is.
#
evanp
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
Zakim, close queue
#
Zakim
ok, tantek, the speaker queue is closed
#
harry
You can try to discuss more with Sandro on mailing list and IRC re having JSON-LD as a requirement.
#
evanp
tantek: thanks
#
sandro
I'm not talking about having JSON-LD as a requirement. I'm talking about AS2.0 using JSON-LD. That's not what Tantek is objecting to, and you are saying it is.
#
harry
It looks like an informal BOF is the way forward. I'd suggest Wednesday rather than Thursday, as we have structured time.
#
sandro
And Harry, you're "sorry" is unbelievably rude.
#
elf-pavlik
IRC log looks like very confusing
#
tantek
sandro, I am *for* AS2.0 publishing as is currently implemented.
#
harry
Where JSON-LD is not required.
#
tantek
sandro, I am *against* making AS2.0 make changes that are political (JSON-LD) rather than what AS2 implementations support.
#
sandro
You mean JSON-LD is not allowed.
#
elf-pavlik
harry, BOF with schema.org team?
#
harry
Happy to help wiht informal BOF if on Wednesday
#
Loqi
I added a countdown for 9/24 12:00am (#5499)
#
tantek
let's get a FPWD of AS2 which reflects actual AS2 implementations.
#
bblfish
As a methodology point in the LDP working group, when everybody agrees with a point except one person, then ususally one tries to find a way to convince the person
#
jtauber
no, i don't believe so
#
bblfish
or get to a compromise
#
evanp
ACTION: review AS 2.0 for next week
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent
records action 2
#
trackbot
Error finding 'review'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
#
harry
Sandro, I suggest you discuss with Tantek directly. As Tantek said, I think I was accurately representing his position to, but you can discuss with him directly.
#
Zakim
-jasnell
#
tiborkat
thx bye
#
Zakim
-evanp
#
Zakim
-wilkie.a
#
Zakim
-jtauber
#
elf-pavlik
thanks evanp ! jtauber
#
evanp
*whew* that was a long one
#
Zakim
-markus
#
Zakim
- +1.541.410.aacc
#
jtauber
do I need to do anything to close out scribing?
#
Zakim
-Sandro
#
Zakim
-elf-pavlik
#
tantek
specifically for that ACTION for review AS2 for FPWD publication
#
evanp
jtauber: no, there's a little recipe I have to do
#
Zakim
-hhalpin
#
harry
RRSAgent, generate minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-social-minutes.html harry
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tantek
ACTION: everyone review AS2.0 for FPWD for next week.
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trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
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trackbot
Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
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RRSAgent
records action 3
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evanp
harry, thanks
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elf-pavlik
tantek, you may need to assign it to yourself ...
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harry
trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been jasnell, elf-pavlik, evanp, jtauber, Arnaud, ShaneHudson, +1.703.670.aaaa, +1.503.567.aabb, aaronpk, Sandro, +1.541.410.aacc, bblfish,
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Zakim
... hhalpin, markus, tantek, tiborKatelbach
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trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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Zakim
-tantek
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Zakim
-tiborKatelbach
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RRSAgent
ACTION: Arnaud to Add "What is the role of Social WG, IG and CG?" as an FAQ to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#FAQ [1]
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RRSAgent
ACTION: review AS 2.0 for next week [2]
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RRSAgent
ACTION: everyone review AS2.0 for FPWD for next week. [3]
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elf-pavlik
i look forward to approving today's minutes last week ;)
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elf-pavlik
s/last/next/
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Loqi
elf-pavlik meant to say: i look forward to approving today's minutes next week ;)
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elf-pavlik
tough meeting, i hope we can clarify more issues over mailing list before next week!
englishm and englishm_ joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
says ciao and wishes everyone nice day/night :)
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Zakim
disconnecting the lone participant, bblfish, in T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
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Zakim
T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
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Zakim
Attendees were jasnell, elf-pavlik, evanp, jtauber, Arnaud, ShaneHudson, +1.703.670.aaaa, +1.503.567.aabb, aaronpk, Sandro, +1.541.410.aacc, bblfish, hhalpin, markus, tantek,
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Zakim
... tiborKatelbach
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tantek
elf-pavlik: I don't have much hope for clarifying anything on the mailing list.
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tantek
but you're welcome to try
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tantek
aside, why the interest in schema-org when no one is socialweb publishing with it?
ShaneHudson and englishm joined the channel
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tantek
!tell elf-pavlik why do you spend so much time on schema-org when no one is socialweb publishing with it?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bblfish
In my view the vocabulary is a secondary issue, once we get agreement on the modelling
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bblfish
then it's just a question of name space
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tantek
bblfish - do you have example of such on your own site at a permalink that we can inspect?
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