#social 2014-10-07
2014-10-07 UTC
caseorganic, cmhobbs, bblfish, wilkie_, bblfish_, barnabywalters and hhalpin joined the channel
# 
hhalpin waves to chairs Arnaud, any sign of EvanP and Tantek?
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# hhalpin waves
# hhalpin I'm in a meeting now, no voice
# hhalpin I recommend just walking through the WBS applications
# hhalpin I've forwarded all of them to you that I can find
# wseltzer hhalpin, we're in socialc
# hhalpin Have you guys started?
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# 
elf-pavlik ahoy o/
# elf-pavlik :)
# elf-pavlik today can NOT connect VoIP :'(
# elf-pavlik rhiaro, I'll try to take a look at your use case in next days, Portfolio sounds very handy!
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# cwebber hello
# cwebber I should find my microphone :)
# cwebber hey evanpro :)
# cwebber btw, is Tsyesika permitted to dial into the call even if she hasn't been accepted as an invited expert yet?
# hhalpin can you remind us of Tyesika's actual name?
# hhalpin we are discussing IEs now
# cwebber Jessica Tallon
# cwebber she's the one doing the pump api implementation for mediagoblin
# cwebber and wrote pypump
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# hhalpin trackbot, this is social
# 
trackbot Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, this is social'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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# hhalpin trackbot, start meeting
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# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-social-irc
# RRSAgent trackbot, access must be one of public, group-strint-submission, offline-webapps-workshop-program-committee, group-webmobile-chairs, group-rdf-val-pc, alumni, group-payment-workshop-submissions, wstar, group-digipub-chairs, member, memberSearchers, group-csv-chairs, wsridirectors, i18n, valid, group-strint-pc, webcrypto, offices, w3f, mlw, group-wot-workshop-pc, team, webandtv-moderators, ab, group-share-psi, group-payment-workshop-pc, memberEditors, w[CUT]
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# hhalpin yep
# hhalpin Hey guys, I'm at a conference right now and its running late
# hhalpin so I might be late to call. Evanpro, you are chairing, right?
# cwebber anyone on the sip line yet?
# hhalpin My feeling is the best thing for this call would be to get commits to review from AS 2.0 from everyone
# hhalpin and really actually do thorough reviews by next week - we still haven't had an IndieWeb review, for example.
# elf-pavlik today I didn't manage to get VoIP working, so only IRC for me :(
# cwebber sorry about that, was just checking
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# AdamB zakim, aaaa is me
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# Shane Hi all, I'm afraid I am in public and forgot my headphones so won't join the call but I will stay in IRC :)
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# markus zakim, code?
# 
wilkie cwebber: there are some links to the commands you might find useful: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Scribes
# wilkie in particular http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html
# cwebber evan says, let's get started, first order of business is to approve minutes from 30th of september
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# cwebber evan asks, resolving resolutions, are those handled to your satisfaction Arnaud ?
# cwebber Arnaud: yes, but link is not correct, we should approve wiki page linked above (https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-30-minutes)
# markus zakim, ??P19 is me
# cwebber which is the cleaned up version
# cwebber evanpro says that looks good, we are using that version... do we have any opposition to approving the wiki page as minutes from previous meeting?
# cwebber evanpro: with unanimous silence, we've approved it
# cwebber (thx sandro)
# cwebber tantek: this is not an official w3c event, but members of the working group may be interested in an event at Cambridge, sandro and tantek are both co-organizers of this
# cwebber if you are interested in coming and working on your own personal website or etc come and join
# cwebber cambridge MA, not Cambridge UK
# Shane tantek: I will probably join remotely if I have time :)
# cwebber cwebber: thx oshepherd, *, for helping ;)
# cwebber evanpro: It's a good idea for us to stay in touch and keep these kinds of events on the agenda
# cwebber new agenda item: two main areas of discussion today. First is to have discussion based on our review of activitystreams 2.0 based on the last week. James has asked for feedback via github or the mailing list
# cwebber we have open questions that have come up in discussion here
# cwebber the second item to address is the social api issues
# cwebber would like to discuss the social api ahead of TPAC, would like to ramp that up as we move forward with social context
# cwebber also, want to discuss relationship with indieweb efforts
# cwebber if we're going to lose tantek maybe we should move that particular item up to the front, is that okay tantek?
# cwebber tantek: yep, can discuss for a few minutes
# cwebber evanpro: great, if we talk the tough discussion early on, hopefully can keep it short, not take up too much of your time
# cwebber I think the person putting this online was elf-pavlik is participating only on irc
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# cwebber evanpro: (repeating question) group charter of json serialization as a requirement
# elf-pavlik_ now yes, let me see onlin log
# cwebber for the social data syntax
# cwebber we have some ?? from indie social web community which may not support json
# cwebber we also may need to discuss jsonl-ld, while most members seem to support, some indiewebcamp people may not support
# cwebber clarification, we have *submissions* from indie sodcial web community
# elf-pavlik_ trying to catch up via http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-10-07
# cwebber elf-pavlik brought this up, not sure we have actionable outcome from thi
# cwebber s
# cwebber cwebber: who's speaking?
# cwebber tantek: what are we trying to explore?
# cwebber cwebber: thanks, I'm still short on catching the voices
# cwebber tantek: try to give the summary statement... in the indieweb community there's been really strong focus on doing absolute minimum you have to get things to work
# cwebber there are so many implementers who are in their spare time doing here and there in their websites
# cwebber following that path means minimum followed format
# cwebber you just put up a web page with html, and from there
# cwebber what's the minimum you can add to that to interoperate beyond that?
# cwebber for blogposts, posts, etc
# cwebber cwebber: sounds like a plane is taking off
# cwebber tantek: from there, what's the minimum to send back and forth between sites, and so pingback with even less work (without xml-rpc)
# cwebber indieweb has gotten most of this working without any json on the wire
# cwebber why do any more work if I don't have to?
# cwebber very motivate to do the least they have to
# cwebber it's not their job, they aren't some big enterprise
# cwebber that said, the formats they're using have a canonical microformats reprsentation
# cwebber so they can send through a canonical microformats representation
# cwebber that's strictly a plumbing detail. They can also process with rdf if they want to
# cwebber it's not opposition per say, they just haven't needed it
# elf-pavlik_ i have some concern about using application/x-www-form-urlencoded with complex nested JSON objects like AS2.0
# cwebber evanpro: I have a bit of a disadvantage having person who brought this up not on call, only on irc
# elf-pavlik_ sorry i can only follow IRC today
# elf-pavlik_ evanpro, yes i will make sure
# Shane I strongly agree, there are many (probably the majority) examples of social integrations between sites that use no javascript at all. Send using a form action, render on page using the serverside code, no JS or JSON required
# cwebber evanpro: I'm not sure this issue is rooted in any of the work we're doing right now
# cwebber I'd prefer to deal with that when that comes arong
# cwebber along
# Shane oshepherd: Fair point
# cwebber tantek: I agree
# cwebber evanpro: so I'd prefer to do it when we have it grounded
# elf-pavlik_ +1 oshepherd
# cwebber let's move on to activitystreams 2.0 if no more discussion on this
# cwebber activitystreams 2.0 is moving forward
# cwebber james has been working on a new draft based on a structure of vocabulary and underlying syntax
# cwebber as part of our work to evaluate that draft this week and next to make some decisions for that
# cwebber the point of having AS2.0 on the agenda is to have a chance to voice any questions and comments on the working draft
# cwebber to see if there's anything we need to do to inform that discussion
# cwebber if people can add folks to the queue if anything comes up
# cwebber *evanpro mutes out for a sec*
# cwebber jasnell: one of the main questions is whether we go forward and publish the current working draft?
# cwebber as previous calls, the current draft is not expected to be perfect
# cwebber it's just a statement of where we're going, what we're working on
# cwebber two qs: is it ready to go? is it ready to go out?
# cwebber second, are there any additional issues to resolve?
# cwebber those are both separate questions, any feedback should be expressed in those terms
# cwebber I will point out that there are some issues added to the github repo
# elf-pavlik_ +q can we add some issues around as:Link and as:Verb to draft inline?
# cwebber in my views we have some technical questions added there, but no blockers
# cwebber evanpro: great... oshepherd ?
# elf-pavlik_ q+ can we add some issues around as:Link and as:Verb to draft inline?
# cwebber oshepherd: at what point did we lose object type in favor of ?? type?
# cwebber when did we switch from object type to json-ld's built-in (action??) type?
# cwebber @type
# cwebber jasnell: it's still there, basing on json-ld spect
# cwebber previous versions not directly compatible with @type
# cwebber so in order to achieve closer compatibility, aliased object type to alias of @type
# cwebber one side effect is it's more backwards compatible with 1.0
# cwebber but does use the value type concept I had previously
# cwebber one reference with one note sent to mailing list, I covered that previously
# cwebber evanpro: no problem, I have a question james
# cwebber evanpro: elf-pavlik_ brought it up and put it on the agenda, we do seem to be strattling two compatibility issues, AS 1.0 and json-ld
# cwebber can we do both, where do we err?
# elf-pavlik_ jasnell, can we add some 'bigger' issues inline to the draft? like around as:Link and as:Verb? also suggested in http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801/#working-draft
# cwebber jasnell: we can achieve 1.0 compatibility in that any 1.0 doc should be a valid 2.0 doc, but reverse is not true
# cwebber we can decide that json-ld is the basis, and err on side of json-ld
# cwebber if we have to break 1.0 compat to work better, json-ld it absolutely is
# elf-pavlik_ cool! :)
# cwebber evanpro: if I'm not incorrect, there is recommendation to defer by media type
# cwebber jasnell: that's correct, convention is that you walk 1.0 rules to apply... there's some questions about whether it's JSON LD plus (??)
# cwebber cwebber: sorry, I lost a lot of that one
# cwebber maybe a repeat if we want it better on record?
# cwebber apologies, that last one I really garbled
# cwebber jasnell: I do know it takes a couple of weeks to get the proposal draft going, so we need a decision quickly in time for TPAC
# cwebber evanpro: yeah, last week we decided we would review for next 2 weeks on no/no-go decision on 14th
# cwebber we seem to be strongly leanign towards go, but we should make that decision by the 14th
# cwebber cwebber: thx
# cwebber evanpro: action item: everyone should review, be ready to make a thumbs up / thumbs down decision on putting forward a first public working draft
# cwebber cwebber: who's speaking?
# cwebber oh
# cwebber Arnaud: yes, if you have any concerns, we should reviw current draft... if not, you need to bring up any issues that should be showstopper for you
# cwebber which doesn't mean it's a perfect draft, but
# cwebber evanpro: I'm sorry about that... people should be ready for overall structure/strategy of AS 2.0, if not every property name / structure
# cwebber Arnaud: that's rigbht
# cwebber right
# cwebber evanpro: great
# cwebber unless there's anything more to discuss on AS 2.0, let's move on to the social API
# cwebber our schedule, which we continue to slip behind on
# cwebber I'd like to add action item for myself to update schedule
# cwebber we are in a period where we should be starting to formulate our social api strategy
# cwebber what we're going to do as our client->server api
# cwebber we have at least one submission for open social activitystreams api
# cwebber a RESTful CRUD api
# cwebber we need to look at other APIs so we know what to look for
# cwebber evaluating as we go in
# cwebber tantek: I have to sign off for now, but there's a wiki page with other API candidates from charter / indieweb community
# cwebber linked from social wg activity
# cwebber talk soon, bye
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# cwebber evanpro: great, thx a lot tantek
# cwebber as for social api candidate someone posted, we talked a little bit about opensocial / activitystreams api
# cwebber I think there are high level qs: how broad of an api, how much do we want to spec out, do we want to keep it lean/small?
# hhalpin Zakim, who's on the phone?
# cwebber there are some social API patterns listed, not sure they match, some of them are inappropriate / proprietary
# cwebber none of facebook/twitter/google have made submissions
# hhalpin apologies, still stuck in my meeting
# cwebber but may be good patterns to understand: what is a social api?
# hhalpin I suggest we try to loop back in OpenSocial, as they seemed to have some sort of plan but haven't been attending phone calls.
# cwebber as an outcome of this meeting, maybe put on our schedule for tpac: an action to come out with our social API strategy from our meeting
# cwebber bblfish: I'm looking at this social api, what I don't see is LDP up, that's very generic
# cwebber is that at the wrong level, or at the right level?
# cwebber evanpro: you could add it, give a link for those of us who don't know it, that would be helpful
# cwebber bblfish: ok
# cwebber evanpro: jasnell would you mind bringing that to voice?
# cwebber jasnell: yes, post it on the ml?
# cwebber evanpro: no, on irc, what does a social api do
# cwebber jasnell: yes, as for strategy, what does a social api *do*? we can make all sorts of examples, but how do we evaluate what we're trying to do
# cwebber I don't know what we're trying to achieve, how do we know what we try to do?
# cwebber evanpro: yes, we're trying to make a list of patterns that meet the same use cases as these apis
# tiborKat zakim : +tiborKat
# cwebber google, twitter, open social api... may make some sense to go finer than that
# cwebber to say these use cases we're trying to address
# cwebber I also tried to throw on a wiki page but
# cwebber there are also some strategy issues: we have lean api from opensocial, but may be more we want to address
# cwebber I want to add that we want to be ready by TPAC time to talk about strategy for APIs
# cwebber would like to take a little poll to see if that's reasonable
# tiborKat yes I'm on IPCall
# cwebber that's for end of october to say strategy of: simple the opensocial activitystreams api, or opensocial activitystreams api + endpoint, will we be ready for that?
# cwebber give me +1, -1, 0 on IRC
# AdamB 0
# markus +0
# MarkCrawford +1
# elf-pavlik_ 0
# cwebber cwebber:
# cwebber +1
# Shane +0
# cwebber wait,
# cwebber +0
# cwebber ;)
# cwebber evanpro: I'll take that as net 1 but pretty weak net 1
# cwebber this is something we should discuss pretty extensively at tpac
# Shane wilkie++
# AdamB +1 on discussing +0 on being ready for a strategy
# cwebber I like that structure jasnell, to discuss proposals at tpac
# cwebber come up with strategies by end of tpac
# Shane +1 to discuss at TPAC, though I won't be there
# cwebber okay! I'd like to ask group to review wiki pages that have come up, add to them, discuss on list if you have questions
# elf-pavlik_ +1 to review proposed APIs
# cwebber once we get to our social data impact, we'll need to be moving fairly quickly with our social apis
# cwebber I believe that's the end of our scheduled agenda
# cwebber anything else to discuss today?
# cwebber add yourself to queue if anything to bring up
# cwebber if not, we're ready to abjourn
# cwebber Arnaud: quickly, yet another reminder, TPAC registration deadline is tomorrow before prices go up
# cwebber evanpro: okay great, thanks everyone for coming
# cwebber see you all next week
# elf-pavlik_ thanks evanpro & cwebber !
# cwebber cwebber:
# cwebber evanpro: ok
# cwebber cwebber: ok
# elf-pavlik_ bot whisperers in action ;-)
# cwebber and yw elf-pavlik_, hopefully I didn't do too bad ;)
# elf-pavlik_ cwebber++
# trackbot Sorry, Arnaud, I don't understand 'trackbot will do the rest'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
# cwebber cwebber: evanpro: what's the invocation I have to do
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-social-minutes.html trackbot
# cwebber does it involve casting magic missile?
# cwebber okay great
# cwebber done
# cwebber yay
# cwebber evanpro: okay great, I think Tsyesika should be able to come from now on
# 
Arnaud like this one: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-30-minutes
# cwebber I'll have to remove all my ERC timestamps ;)
# hhalpin Note we really need to figureout what's going on with opensocial.
# cwebber evanpro: from which web page?
# cwebber oshepherd: okay, great
# hhalpin yep
# hhalpin they were on an early call and dropped
# hhalpin I think the API was going to be pushed by Matt Marum
# hhalpin OK, will try to schedule a meeting with them to figure out what's going on
# hhalpin they just may be busy
# hhalpin but they do want a lot of simplification
# hhalpin so I think the work here will help them.
# cwebber okay, will make that wiki page
# hhalpin Arnaud and Evanpro - tell me who you approved real quick re IEs
# cwebber gonna toss some leftovers in the microwave for lunch, eat that, then I'll do the wiki thing.
# cwebber btw, I think cmhobbs is also waiting on invited expert status
# cwebber he's also writing a pump api ruby library
# cwebber https://gitorious.org/laraib
# cwebber would be good to have implementers as part of the group
# cwebber which I said independent of reading the above implementer conversation :)
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# cwebber okay, lunch, then wiki editing! bbiab.
# hhalpin ok
# hhalpin and jessica tallon, right evanpro?
# hhalpin thanks
# hhalpin ok, Skype is fine "HarryHalpin"
# cwebber my login name on w3c is actually cwebber2
# cwebber rather than cwebber
# cwebber cwebber was when I was at creative commons
# cwebber and I no longer have @creativecommons.org
# cwebber so
# cwebber but I guess the form already makes clear which I applied as, so nm :)
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# cwebber hey
# cwebber evanpro: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-07-minutes how's this?
# cwebber oshepherd: okay, I'll remove it... that was part of the copy-pasta ;)
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