#social 2014-11-04
2014-11-04 UTC
jasnell, Arnaud, bblfish, cmhobbs, caseorganic, nicolagreco, Arnaud1, pfefferle, the_frey, pfefferle_, danbri, timbl and the_frey_ joined the channel
bblfish, almereyda, tilgovi, jasnell, jasnell_, elf-pavlik, Arnaud, AdamB and Zakim joined the channel
# 
elf-pavlik Zakim, what conferences?
# elf-pavlik Zakim, this will be SOCWG
# elf-pavlik hi :)
# elf-pavlik Zakim, what's the code?
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# elf-pavlik Zakim: ok, elf-pavlik; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
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# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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# elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P2 is me
# 
MarkCrawford zakim, +1.202.312.aabb is me
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# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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# elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P5 is claudio
# AdamB alternating weeks seems reasonable
# AdamB but there was a lot of time spent picking the current time
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# 
KevinMarks 408.335 is me
# elf-pavlik Zakim, aacc is KevinMarks
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# elf-pavlik Zakim, aacc ??P10 is cwebber2
# elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P10 is cwebber2
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# elf-pavlik I could do it
# elf-pavlik scribe: elf-pavlik
# elf-pavlik scribenick: elf-pavlik
# KevinMarks where is agenda? on wiki?
# almereyda How long would spectating such a call as right now take?
# elf-pavlik topic: TPAC Debfriefing
# elf-pavlik topic: Admin
# elf-pavlik subtopic: approval of minutes for 21 october
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# elf-pavlik RESOLUTION: approved mintues from October 21st
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# elf-pavlik subtopic: tracking actions and issues
# elf-pavlik Arnaud, we collected many ISSUES and ACTIONS during TPAC
# 
Arnaud raised issues: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised
# elf-pavlik ... i would like to propose that we all agree to open them all
# elf-pavlik who spoke?
# elf-pavlik sandro: to Arnaud you can decide as group chair to open those issues
# elf-pavlik evanpro: unless someone objects lets move them to open
# elf-pavlik RESOLUTION: we will open all raised issues
# Arnaud Open actions: https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open
# elf-pavlik evanpro: will close ACTION-10, requests reveiw
# elf-pavlik Arnaud, claims victory on ACTION-7
# elf-pavlik Arnaud, initially suggested his availability for early february but needed to change due to expecting a child toward the end of january
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik, i can't minute because of some noise on line
# elf-pavlik thanks for muting!
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# elf-pavlik jasnell, ACTION-8 in progress, email sent to mailing lists
# elf-pavlik Arnaud, let's leave it open for now
# elf-pavlik roger!
# elf-pavlik jasnell: on ACTION-9 having progress with dret
# dromasca aaee is dromasca
# elf-pavlik harry: little back and forth with ???, looks positive so far
# elf-pavlik topic: TPAC Debriefing
# elf-pavlik subtopic: minutes needs cleanup and make logs public
# KevinMarks the irc logs are html
# elf-pavlik harry, working on it, will take a little
# elf-pavlik harry: working on it, will take a little
# elf-pavlik Arnaud, 3 versions of minutes, IRC log, another autogenerated by irc bot, next one manually copied to wiki
# elf-pavlik ... asked system team for suggestions, they could make irc log writeable by HTTP PUT, which would allow us to edit log and regenerate minutes
# elf-pavlik ... will follow up on that and let's hop we can have it working and documented
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: thanks Arnaud!
# elf-pavlik harry: pandoc does the conversion very well, we could try to automate it with it
# AdamB harry: any link to information on pandoc ?
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: also scribe developed by sandro, but system teams has some issues with it
# elf-pavlik evanpro: just use the automaticaly generated minutes, if we need to make changes we just add errarta on wiki page
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: problem with autogenerated minutes - very bad quality
# elf-pavlik ... we should capture attendance, who stays present, we need to translate nicknames to real names
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# elf-pavlik ... elf missed out that one needs to use : and can't use , after nick of person speaking
# 
aaronpk and it's even machine-readable http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fwiki%2FIRC-people
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: TPAC, I don't want to take people through the whole minutes but happy to answer questions
# KevinMarks hm, aaronpk, most of those don't have full names
# elf-pavlik ... we had some good conversation about Actiions, even tantek realized that they match what IndieWeb comunity do with their <indie-action>
# elf-pavlik ... we discussed 'what we mean by Social API', we resolved that we talke about HTTP REST API which allows clients to access servers
# elf-pavlik ... we should highlight in in minutes and accept possible objections to such definition of 'Social API'
# elf-pavlik ... we discussed federation protocol, we don't have concrete way forward but could clarify a lot about this topic
# elf-pavlik ... we had discussion with Social IG, most folks attended the whole meeting
# elf-pavlik ... they presented overview of what they work on and tried to get feedback if they stay on the right tracks when it comes to usecases
# elf-pavlik ... we setup doodle pool for the dates and location for next F2F meeting
# elf-pavlik ... also interesting cross meeting with Annotation WG, one of the opportunities created by TPAC
# KevinMarks volunteered to be overlapping member
# elf-pavlik ... two working groups met together and realized that we don't have overlap on deliverables, but we have big overlap on the topic, we could provide Social API they need
# elf-pavlik ... we could explain to each other what we work on
# elf-pavlik ... we found that adding annotation to a web page, and adding comment to a blog post have very similar mechanics
# elf-pavlik ... we agreed to take a closer look at it
# elf-pavlik ... also meeting with some of schema.org people, aside from WG meeting on wednesday during time for ad-hoc meetings, presen from google side Guha, danbri and Sam Goto
# AdamB generally seemed to have a positive vibe to it
# elf-pavlik ... we will follow up with them on overlap with Actions
# elf-pavlik ... schema.org could submit their Action vocab subtree
# KevinMarks they don't currently show archival versions, but dan said they would
# elf-pavlik harry: clarifying 1 or 2 things regarding liason
# elf-pavlik ... Anotations may need to connect to acrivity stream
# elf-pavlik ... they may want to build on our spec
# elf-pavlik ... when it comes to schema.org we 'dance' with google to possibly join the WG
# elf-pavlik otherwise they can submit Actions and we better hold with publishing alternative
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: and we have nice group photo
# elf-pavlik ... few people could join remotely over http://talky.io WebRTC based app
# elf-pavlik ... doesn't require any registration etc. just modern borwser
# elf-pavlik ... we agreed that we acheved goals setup for that meeting and now we just need to continue our work
# elf-pavlik TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0
# elf-pavlik subtopic: require JSON-LD compacted serialization
# elf-pavlik jasnell: JSON-LD allows expessing document in various form, which serializes same data in different ways
# elf-pavlik ... the compacted form stays closest to what AS1 has and what most people expect
# elf-pavlik ... it makes sense to require that interchange AS2.0 document in compacted form
# elf-pavlik who spaks?
# KevinMarks processing without a json-ld processor is a goal surely?
# elf-pavlik sandro: people need to require 'our' context or compatibile context
# elf-pavlik ... also something about people who don't have JSON-LD processor
# KevinMarks previously we talked about an implied context to include as1
# elf-pavlik sandro: we may need concrete schema for compacted version
# elf-pavlik dret: if we make this statement, we need to tell people what to do if they don't use JSON-LD toolset
# elf-pavlik ... or say - don't even try to do that without JSON-LD processing
# elf-pavlik cwebber2: i think that requiring by default compacted form with default context is good way to go
# elf-pavlik ... i only have limited experience with implementing JSON-LD in GNU Media Goblin
# KevinMarks the value of the @context is confirming the assumptions of the processor
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: how do people know which is which ?
# elf-pavlik jasnell: way exists to define profile but we may not need it
# elf-pavlik jasnell: we have JSON-LD context which could serve as default for compacting
# elf-pavlik harry: my intuition, that if we normativly specify it and people don't do it it puts W3C in bad light
# KevinMarks you can always expand JSON by adding keys; you can also add more contexts to explain them
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# elf-pavlik ... we know that tons of JSON exists out there and not so much JSON-LD, let's recommend default context and see how people use it or use other contexts
# elf-pavlik ... does anyone know if JSON-LD processings spreads in a wild?
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: I think we don't have enough information to make this decision now
# Arnaud Proposed: Require JSON-LD compacted serialization and close Github Issue-48 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/48
# Arnaud Proposed: Require JSON-LD compacted serialization with a default context and close Github Issue-48 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/48
# elf-pavlik +1
# AdamB +0
# MarkCrawford +0
# claudio +1
# KevinMarks this reminds me of profile
# elf-pavlik dret: it worries me that we need to think about various aspecs if people use extensions and model vs. syntax
# elf-pavlik ... doesn't see it well defined as it stands now
# elf-pavlik jasnell: not quite sure about the objection
# KevinMarks does "default context" mean it has to have an @context key, or that it is implied?
# elf-pavlik dret: maye i don't understand fully JSON-LD compacting mechanism
# elf-pavlik ... what happens to URIs not mapped in @context
# KevinMarks q+
# elf-pavlik thinks we need to disuss it over mailing list / github
# elf-pavlik dret: discussing JSON-LD details with jasnell
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: we should take it offline and come back to this proposal
# elf-pavlik KevinMarks: tries to clarify what we mean by 'default context'
# KevinMarks +1
# elf-pavlik jasnell: if one not specified one should use one recommended by the spec
# elf-pavlik sandro: or use *compatibile* context (eg. extended with more mappings)
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: asks dret if that helps
# KevinMarks that makes sense -so if a context is supplied it can't redefine name as age or something
# elf-pavlik dret: needs to discuss this topic more
# elf-pavlik subtopic: remote "rel" from as:Link
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: as:Link can wait!
# KevinMarks oshepherd: it doesn't have to be the same, but it has to be compatible -ie an intersection?
# elf-pavlik jasnell: starting with rel
# elf-pavlik ... it doesn't make sense once you expand it
# elf-pavlik ... it should stay property of the subject not the link itself
# elf-pavlik ... in general of questionable value
# elf-pavlik ... recommend to remove it, only one (mine) implementation uses it
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: do people understand this case?
# KevinMarks would this mean we'd lose rel's when mapping to HTML?
# elf-pavlik jasnell: separate issue from removing as:Link !
# KevinMarks or have to know to add them?
# 
wilkie btw, it is this discussion: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/47
# elf-pavlik Zakim, unmute me
# Arnaud Proposed: remove "rel" from as:Link and close Github Issue-47 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/47
# elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
# KevinMarks q+
# elf-pavlik KevinMarks: has consern about value of rel in html and microformats
# elf-pavlik ... if we remove rel, it may close path to easy mapping to microformats
# elf-pavlik jasnell: we can still express needed relationships
# elf-pavlik KevinMarks: conserned about microformats2 round ???
# 
dret i just tried to write up my concerns at https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/48 (the requirement of JSON-LD compacted form)
# KevinMarks microformats-2 round-tripping from a published page to as2 bakc to mf2 html
# elf-pavlik jasnell: as things currently defined rel doesn't make sense in processing model
# elf-pavlik KevinMarks: explains some aspects of mf2
# elf-pavlik jasnell: we can just define link relations we want to use in JSON-LD @context
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: end of official time, people may need little more time to think about it and discuss it
# KevinMarks they're defined here: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-registry so maybe that can be munged into a @context ?
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: next time we can try to highlight proposals and get agenda out earlier
# elf-pavlik evanpro: if we run over, should we plan for 2h meeting next week
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# KevinMarks oshepherd: how does that fit rel=me etc?
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: happy to extend for 30min next week
# KevinMarks rel=author
# elf-pavlik evanpro: 11-11 holiday in canada
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: we keep regular time
# elf-pavlik ciao o/
# 
RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/04-social-minutes.html trackbot
# Lloyd_Fassett zakim, <aadd> is me
# 
oshepherd KevinMarks: So at present you'd end up with
{"@id": "https://twitter.com/kevinmarks", "rel": "me"} as a "standalone" object, which doesn't make sense. I'm arguing (on the issue) that if we are to keep link relations we need to do them separately, e.g. {"@id": "https://kevinmarks.com", "links": [{"rel": "me", "href": "https://twitter.com/kevinmarks"}]}RRSAgent joined the channel
# RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/04-social-irc
# elf-pavlik thx! i'll try to copy them to wiki now...
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