#social 2014-11-11

2014-11-11 UTC
caseorganic, jasnell, Arnaud, bblfish, cmhobbs, tilgovi, jaywink, pfefferle, the_frey, danbri, harry, mechanic, nicolagreco, KevinMarks2, KevinMarks, timbl, pfefferle_ and tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good morning #social web WG!
mechanic, tilgovi, evanpro and harry joined the channel
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harry
waves
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evanpro
I forget
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harry
just pinged you evanpro
elf-pavlik_, the_frey and dret joined the channel
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harry
warning, I'm being kicked out of my office so I'm going to be a few minutes late to the meeting
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tantek
greetings
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dret
aloha
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oshepherd
I presume the US is definitely off DST now and I don't need to worry about that confusing scheduling until ~March-ish?
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oshepherd
Its' just slightly confusing because I think EU and US must have shifted DST in <1week of each other
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tantek
US is off DST
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dret
yup,@oshepherd, they tend to do that just to test how much in control we are of our scheduling and calendaring tools.
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, conferences?
Zakim joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, conferences?
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Zakim
I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
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tantek
dret, it helps sell updates to scheduling and calendaring tools, job security for the devs that work on them, etc.
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oshepherd
notes that between them Outlook and iCalendar seem to disagree on the handling of DST within one country...
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tantek
Zakim, conference?
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Zakim
I don't understand your question, tantek.
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, what conferences?
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Zakim
sees T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM active
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Zakim
sees in schedule WAI_WCAG()11:00AM, T&S_DNTC()12:00PM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, Team_(socialc)17:00Z, RWC_WAPI()12:00PM, IA_WEBPD()1:00PM, WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM
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oshepherd
(even without any actual DST shifts)
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, code?
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Zakim
sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't know what conference this is
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tantek
oshepherd: it's because they both have public test results for iCalendar's public test suite. NOT.
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tantek
(on both counts)
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, this is SOCWG
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Zakim
ok, elf-pavlik; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, code?
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Zakim
saw 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, elf-pavlik
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bblfish
is the conf call now, or was it an hour ago?
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oshepherd
I had to apologise to an Apple store employee once for turning up 1 hour late because I'd dared to use Microsoft software with their ics file...
Zakim, timbl, sandro, trackbot, shepazu, RRSAgent, wseltzer and jessica_lily joined the channel
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Zakim
+jasnell
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elf-pavlik
bblfish, should start now
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cwebber2
fyi, Jessica_Lily == Tsyesika
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bblfish
mhh, lucky me there
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tantek
bblfish: in ~30 sec.
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elf-pavlik
jasnell, does voice already work?
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Zakim
+??P1
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jasnell
elf: ?
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Zakim
+??P3
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tantek
Zakim, who is making noise?
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Zakim
tantek, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jasnell (24%), ??P1 (46%), [IPcaller] (12%), ??P3 (34%)
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Zakim
+??P6
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Zakim
+??P5
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dret
i dialed in via skype 10min ago, how do i find out who i am?
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tantek
Zakim, ??P1 is me
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Zakim
+tantek; got it
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Zakim
+evanpro
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elf-pavlik
Zakim ??P6 is me
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oshepherd
Zakim, ??P5 is me
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Zakim
+oshepherd; got it
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Zakim
+??P4
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, ??P6 is me
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Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
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tantek
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
On the phone I see [IPcaller], jasnell, tantek, ??P3, elf-pavlik, oshepherd, evanpro, ??P4
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rhiaro
Zakim, ??P4 is me
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Zakim
On IRC I see Jessica_Lily, aaronpk, kylewm, wilkie, Loqi, jaakko, Tsyesika, bret, mattl, rektide, dwhly, nickstenn, JakeHart, oshepherd, rhiaro, MorbusIff, bigbluehat, cwebber2,
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Zakim
... tommorris, hadleybeeman, jaywink, Arnaud, bblfish, KevinMarks, jasnell, tantek, mechanic, tilgovi, evanpro, elf-pavlik, dret, Zakim, timbl, shepazu, RRSAgent, trackbot, sandro,
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Zakim
... wseltzer
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Zakim
+rhiaro; got it
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rhiaro
Zakim, mute me
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
rhiaro should now be muted
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
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evanpro
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 11 November 2014
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cwebber2
I'm here but not identified on the call
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
I notice T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has restarted
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tantek
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: [IPcaller], jasnell, tantek, ??P3, elf-pavlik (muted), oshepherd, evanpro, rhiaro (muted)
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Zakim
On the phone I see [IPcaller], jasnell, tantek, ??P3, elf-pavlik (muted), oshepherd, evanpro, rhiaro (muted)
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Zakim
On IRC I see Jessica_Lily, aaronpk, kylewm, wilkie, Loqi, jaakko, Tsyesika, bret, mattl, rektide, dwhly, nickstenn, JakeHart, oshepherd, rhiaro, MorbusIff, bigbluehat, cwebber2,
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Zakim
... tommorris, hadleybeeman, jaywink, Arnaud, bblfish, KevinMarks, jasnell, tantek, mechanic, tilgovi, evanpro, elf-pavlik, dret, Zakim, timbl, shepazu, RRSAgent, trackbot, sandro,
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Zakim
... wseltzer
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tantek
cwebber2: when did you call in?
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Zakim
+??P8
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tantek
who just joined?
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cwebber2
tantek: a few minutes ago
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cwebber2
hold on, let me identify myself
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Zakim
-[IPcaller]
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elf-pavlik
if you need to find your ??P nr you can try (just not everyone at the same time!) http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim_Tips
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Zakim
hears tantek's hand up
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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Zakim
+Arnaud
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Jessica_Lily
tantek: i did i think
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cwebber2
tantek: I think it thinks I'm you
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tantek
that was not me
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
that's me
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Zakim
+bblfish
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tantek
cwebber2, redial
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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Zakim
-tantek
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elf-pavlik
tantek you want to stay on q ?
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wilkie
Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim
+wilkie; got it
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evanpro
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
On the phone I see jasnell, ??P3, elf-pavlik (muted), oshepherd, evanpro, rhiaro (muted), ??P8, Arnaud, bblfish, wilkie
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tantek
zakim, ??p3 is me
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Zakim
+tantek; got it
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Zakim
+??P1
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wilkie
hello all :)
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cwebber2
ok just came in
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tantek
Zakim, ??P1 is cwebber2
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Zakim
+cwebber2; got it
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wilkie
I can do it!
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tantek
zakim, mute me
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Zakim
tantek should now be muted
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elf-pavlik
thanks wilkie!
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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tantek
wilkie++ for scribing!
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evanpro
scribenick wilkie
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Loqi
wilkie has 4 karma
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Zakim
+ +1.541.410.aaaa
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dret
zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
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Zakim
sorry, dret, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
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dret
Zakin, IPcaller is me
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dret
Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim
+dret; got it
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tantek
belated regrets for last week
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wilkie
evanpro: on the agenda: federation outreach to other players in social web
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tantek
I thought (and should have posted) that we were skipping a telcon the week after TPAC
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: jasnell, tantek (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), oshepherd, evanpro, rhiaro (muted), ??P8, Arnaud, bblfish, wilkie, cwebber2, dret, +1.541.410.aaaa
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tantek
(as other WGs do)
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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wilkie
evanpro: also some actions with respect to AS 2.0
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wilkie
evanpro: any actions we should do today?
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Zakim
+Sandro
Lloyd_Fassett joined the channel
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wilkie
evanpro: first item: approval of minutes for nov 4th
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wilkie
evanpro: any objections to the minutes?
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tantek
I was confused by them
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elf-pavlik
wilkie, please try to do topic: to mark sections
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tantek
by no objection
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tantek
but no objection, since I wasn't there :)
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wilkie
topic: Approval of minutes
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wilkie
elf-pavlik: thanks
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jasnell
no objection
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evanpro
RESOLVED: approval of minutes from Nov 4
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elf-pavlik
s/RESOLVED/RESOLUTION/
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wilkie
looks fine right?
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wilkie
evanpro: we will move on to the tracker. looking at open issues.
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wilkie
evanpro: there are 8 open issues
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elf-pavlik
sees no rrsagent ...
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wilkie
evanpro: we have 8 open issues and 1 action for Arnaud for adding items to the FAQ
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wilkie
evanpro: harry, we have issues for you related to licensing
Shane joined the channel
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evanpro
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
On the phone I see jasnell, tantek (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), oshepherd, evanpro, rhiaro (muted), ??P8, Arnaud, bblfish, wilkie, cwebber2, dret, +1.541.410.aaaa, Sandro
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oshepherd
Harry said he may be 5min late
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wilkie
evanpro: I don't see harry on the call so we will leave those actions for now
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wilkie
evanpro: James (jasnell) has two open action items. one is looking at annotation model (AnnotationWG) and AS 1.0 adapting this to 2.0
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Zakim
+??P14
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wilkie
jasnell: both are in progress. I need to follow up with Annotation people
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Shane
Zakim, ??P14 is me
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Zakim
+Shane; got it
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Shane
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
Shane should now be muted
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Zakim
-rhiaro
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wilkie
jasnell: eric published something on github that we have been collaborating on. should have something in a week or two. in progress.
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Zakim
+??P4
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rhiaro
Zakim, ??P4 is me
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Zakim
+rhiaro; got it
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rhiaro
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
rhiaro should now be muted
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evanpro
KevinMarks liaison with Web annotations group?
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wilkie
evanpro: on annotations, we talked about having a liason for the group. who was that?
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tantek
zakim, unmute me
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Zakim
tantek should no longer be muted
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wilkie
tantek: that is correct [it was KevinMarks] I'll talk to KevinMarks.
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tantek
KevinMarks agreed to (was volunteered to) liase with Annotations WG
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KevinMarks
Yes, though I haven't been accepted as an ie there yet
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wilkie
evanpro: that takes care of our open actions and issues (with exception to harry's)
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tantek
wilkie: James Snell said " I'll talk to KevinMarks."
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wilkie
evanpro: next topic is API. when we talked at TPAC we talked about how a social API is within our scope and we would address it.
harry joined the channel
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wilkie
evanpro: toward the end of our meeting we got stuck on what the next steps would be. we should come up with a strategy for what our next steps would be and come up with what a working draft for social API would be.
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wilkie
tantek: thanks, sorry
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harry
Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
caseorganic joined the channel
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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harry
Zakim, IPcaller is hhalpin
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Zakim
+hhalpin; got it
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tantek
wilkie np. funny that James and I sounds similar after hanging out together at TPAC. :)
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wilkie
evanpro: we need to be clear on what we want in our social API.
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wilkie
tantek: you unmuted so I assumed heh
AdamB joined the channel
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wilkie
evanpro: we have many APIs (google+, twitter, etc) listed as existing social APIs we can look at and we should look at them.
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wilkie
evanpro: next, once we have a list of APIs considered social APIs, we could break up those APIs in to blocks: what is about content posting, social graph, etc. see if there are areas of functionality in those APIs we haven't talked about yet.
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: what Social IG could help with
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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wilkie
evanpro: from the point of having this, we can illicit proposals for social APIs as a way to go forward.
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Shane
Should we include features that APIs may find useful but that propietary APIs don't have? (I have no examples, it may be a moot point)
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wilkie
evanpro: I do think we do have to have a strategy for moving forward.
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evanpro
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
unmutes elf-pavlik
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss what Social IG could help with
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wilkie
evanpro: I will stop talking and start recognizing people off the queue
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wilkie
evanpro: elf?
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wilkie
elf-pavlik: tomorrow we have a call with social web ig and they can help with that
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tantek
q+ to ask about what about existing *interoperably implemented* open APIs that satisfy many of the same use-cases? E.g. Micropub http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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evanpro
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to ask about what about existing *interoperably implemented* open APIs that satisfy many of the same use-cases? E.g. Micropub http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
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KevinMarks
s/illicit/elicit/
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mattl
another call i can't make i'm afraid. it clashes with the weekly managers call at work.
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wilkie
tantek: while I agree with the approach of looking at proprietary, previous social-like APIs I think we've made much more progress in the state of the art than just that. We should at least look at what Social APIs we have today that interop... open APIs and see what cases they solve already.
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Zakim
-??P8
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Zakim
-rhiaro
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wilkie
tantek: instead of reinventing everything from proprietary building blocks. the strongest one I can think of is indiepub. which has many implementations and 8 clients supporting it which is a great deal of interop.
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Zakim
-dret
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wilkie
s/indiepub/micropub/
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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wilkie
evanpro: I think it is a great example. we need a mechanism to say that this is something that considers the requirements.
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Zakim
+??P4
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rhiaro
Zakim, ??P4 is me
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Zakim
+rhiaro; got it
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rhiaro
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
rhiaro should now be muted
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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Zakim
+??P8
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dret
zakim, ipcaller is me
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Zakim
+dret; got it
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wilkie
evanpro: my concern is that our time schedule is important and we shouldn't go down a use-case tarpit.
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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evanpro
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
hence better to start with real world success examples
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wilkie
bblfish: I think it is great to have these examples.
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tantek
rather than use-cases, when we already have interop
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wilkie
bblfish: coming from an architecture point of view, I should be able to follow links without worrying much about the services underneath and do so with minimal amount of sync between services. absolute minimum.
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wilkie
bblfish: I should discover where I can post or do certain types of actions by following links.
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Zakim
- +1.541.410.aaaa
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elf-pavlik
sounds like hypermedia to me :)
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wilkie
bblfish: if you constrain yourselves enough you can always find a means of doing and solving the requirements.
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wilkie
bblfish: if we put the constraints on, I think we will find few solutions to solve them.
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Zakim
+ +1.541.410.aabb
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Zakim
+MarkCrawford
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harry
Vocabularies, BTW, are in Social Interest Group unless directly relevant to the API.
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tantek
q+ to say APIs are not just a matter of vocabularies, until you've built support yourself, you cannot make any such assertion. Building is the only way of uncovering what's actually needed.
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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wilkie
evanpro: We are talking about a few different levels. I want to talk about a strategy for this group to get to a working draft for a social API.
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wilkie
evanpro: what are our next steps?
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harry
The API is probably going to be ActivityStreams-centric
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: hypermedia APIs
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Zakim
sees tantek, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
MarkCrawford joined the channel
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tantek
harry - more like ActivityStreams - compatible
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harry
Good point - i.e. it's not an API for *all possible* social use-cases
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tantek
there is no hard constraint to be ActivityStreams - centric, just interop
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harry
but for sharing status updates.
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wilkie
bblfish: I think cutting things into blocks is a good exercise. the trick is to be is to see can one of these and look at them and find limitations to them based on implementations, or maybe we see, with creativity, we can solve generic problems in a simple manner.
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tantek
"can have a generic system" is far different than "has a working system"
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tantek
if "can solve generic problems in a simple manner", then demonstrate proof of that by simply solving the generic problem with your own website/client implementations and document them https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates
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Zakim
+aaronpk
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Zakim
sees tantek, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
I think it makes sense to have ActivityStreams 2.0 be the basis of things, given the work that's been done
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wilkie
evanpro: I think being able to say "this is what we are trying to do. get these systems (micropub, etc) working on a set of requirements." is a great way to go.
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evanpro
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to say APIs are not just a matter of vocabularies, until you've built support yourself, you cannot make any such assertion. Building is the only way of
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cwebber2
I'd be surprised given the existing work put in so far if we didn't
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wilkie
evanpro: tantek?
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Zakim
... uncovering what's actually needed.
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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tantek
ack tantek
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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wilkie
tantek: I wanted to make it clear that I don't think we can accept that an API is x,y,z is true unless we have an implementation.
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wilkie
tantek: until you have built out a client/server API you just don't have any idea what is needed
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Zakim
-wilkie
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wilkie
uh oh
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wilkie
somebody else scribe plz
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evanpro
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
unmutes elf-pavlik
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss hypermedia APIs
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
elf-pavlik: difference between today's social APIs like google,fb,twitter, specific domain,
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tantek
elf-pavlik: and ...
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harry
I'm pretty sure generic hypermedia APIs are not on topic.
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tantek
evanpro: why are those different from what we are trying to do
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tantek
elf-pavlik: because they expect very specific for specific domain
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tantek
elf-pavlik: support certain concepts, thus API that is limited for those certain concepts
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tantek
elf-pavlik: but like Hydra, you can discover what it does using JSON-LD
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tantek
elf-pavlik: you don't have to have prior knowledge about what it can do
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tantek
elf-pavlik: even with webmention and micropub, you have link relations
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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tantek
elf-pavlik: when you discover them, you can discover you can interact in a certain way
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tantek
elf-pavlik: remind about the Hydra that it is a suggested candidate
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tantek
elf-pavlik: also Micropub and Linked Data Platform
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tantek
evanpro: Micropub, LDP, great candidates
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tantek
evanpro: I want to bring the conversation back to process
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oshepherd
harry++
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Loqi
harry has 2 karma
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Shane
I don't know much about Hyrda but I do know the discovery for Micropub and Webmentions are very important/useful
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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harry
Happy to add Hydra as a candidate.
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tantek
evanpro: are we comfortable with using those APIs as research, identifying their functionality
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cwebber2
evanpro: yes, I think that's what we really want to do
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wilkie
Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim
+wilkie; got it
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wilkie
ok I'm back
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wilkie
thanks
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tantek
evanpro: and requirements
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tantek
(still catching up)
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harry
But in general, I'd rather start to get consensus on something simple and build up as we get implementation experience
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wilkie
evanpro: does that sound right or do we have another path forward?
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tantek
evanpro: and identifying the requirements we need
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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harry
its q?
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evanpro
ack harry
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
evanpro: or do we have another path forward
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tantek
hands minuting back to wilkie
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dret
haryr, are you in the shower?
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Zakim
-elf-pavlik
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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wilkie
harry: I'm happy to have hydra added as a candidate. I tend to agree with evanpro and other folks that we could start with something simple that looks like a HTTP API and moving out for next-gen APIs. I would focus on simple and move up.
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Shane
harry: Agreed, we should start with the simplest implementations. Small instead of monolithic.
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Zakim
+??P6
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wilkie
harry: for requirements, I think it would be best for people to draft what they want and see what we could get working.
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tantek
who just joined?
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wilkie
harry: this requires an editor to look to find consensus
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tantek
Zakim: ??P6 is elf-pavlik
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tantek
Zakim, ??P6 is elf-pavlik
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Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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harry
To repeat, I'd like to see an editor role try to get consensus with a rough draft.
#
Zakim
-oshepherd
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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evanpro
ack cwebber2
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harry
Evan seems like he's doing a good job as that editor so far :)
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
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evanpro
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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wilkie
cwebber2: just wanted to say that it is a smart idea to go forward with this plan.
#
cwebber2
I'm done
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Zakim
+??P5
#
wilkie
cwebber2: time schedule is short. we can't move forward until we know what requirements are. why don't we act on the current list?
#
bblfish
So just to write out what I said earlier: "starting off with the notion of a distributed social web one major constraint is that one should be able to follow links from page to page, jumping between servers, that may never have heard of each other until a user made a link between them, and so yet a software client has to be able from this to be able to work out what he has to do to allow a certain action to take place. This constraint is very s
#
bblfish
trong, and it should allow one to narrow down the protocols quite rapidly."
#
wilkie
evanpro: I think that sounds great.
#
harry
+1 EvanPro's proposal
#
wilkie
evanpro: (wrt tantek's question) let me link here that we would have proposals that would link to Social API candidates and we would make a decision as a group.
#
harry
However, we need someone to write down the requirements - i.e. the editor role I mentioned.
#
Zakim
-dret
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wilkie
evanpro: and choosing one of the candidates would be the last step.
#
Zakim
+[IPcaller]
#
Jessica_Lily
+1
#
wilkie
STRAWPOLL: consensus on this moving forward
#
elf-pavlik
can we write down cleare PROPOSAL ?
#
dret
zakim, IPcaller is me
#
Zakim
+dret; got it
#
evanpro
PROPOSAL: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Path_towards_Social_API as our process for choosing a Social API strategy
#
cwebber2
do I re-+1?
#
cwebber2
regardless :)
#
wilkie
it is PROPOSED / RESOLVED
#
Jessica_Lily
+1
#
wilkie
you'd think it should accept both
#
evanpro
RESOLVED: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Path_towards_Social_API as our process for choosing a Social API strategy
#
wilkie
evanpro: I feel pretty comforable with that and it seems others are comfortable
#
wilkie
evanpro: I think we take some next steps of starting to break up the functionality in those APIs.
#
tantek
I added more existing APIs to the patterns page, and grouped by Open vs. Proprietary
#
wilkie
evanpro: especially for those who are not as familiar with these APIs to get a feeling of their functionality.
#
tantek
and implemented vs. not known
#
wilkie
evanpro: implementing this strategy is something we can do next week. we have a lot more to do today.
#
tantek
thanks evanpro for helping move forward a sensible process :)
#
wilkie
evanpro: I appreciate the focus on this and now we can move forward
#
wilkie
TOPIC: Federation outreach.
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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Zakim
-bblfish
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wilkie
evanpro: I would like cwebber2 to address this issue on the call
#
evanpro
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Zakim
-evanpro
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Zakim
+Doug_Schepers
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Zakim
-hhalpin
Shane joined the channel
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wilkie
cwebber2: as I wrote to the list, I wrote about having concerns about how there are many groups implementing federation. it would be best to use this group to consolidate some of that.
#
evanpro
Grrr, dropped off the call
#
Shane
I dropped off the IRC, that was odd
#
wilkie
cwebber2: although there is some risk of distraction to the group of bringing it disagreeing opinions, it is still worth the outreach.
#
wilkie
cwebber2: I reached out to Diaspora. one dev has submitted to the WG and is interested in representing Diaspora. doesn't work on federation presently, but is interested in it.
#
tantek
cwebber2++ for reaching out to other groups. Thanks Chris!
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 3 karma
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wilkie
cwebber2: mon-o(?) is also interested in working with us. there are some doubt about how much they can dedicate to it. maybe it is better to spend energy on last-gen federation, but has applied for WG.
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Zakim
+evanpro
#
evanpro
*whew*
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evanpro
wilkie: mmn-o
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wilkie
cwebber2: I reached out to other groups as well. tent.io seems skeptical. response I got was "we think we is to way too early to decide, and it is better to implement many protocols and let industry decide. we want to do our own thing"
#
Zakim
-Shane
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2, do you track you outreach somewhere?
#
oshepherd
(Is MMM-O Michal Nordfeldth? He has already posted to the list)
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wilkie
cwebber2: frendi(c/k)a. a person there thinks it would not be the best for them to work on the WG.
#
Shane
Sorry, I'm going to have to head off. Internet connection here is dreadful
#
tantek
that's sad/ironic about tent.io. see http://indiewebcamp.com/tent.io for a broader list of issues related to tent.
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wilkie
cwebber2: another person working on friendi(c/k)a expressed some interest but I don't think they applied to the WG.
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wilkie
cwebber2: selfdogfood has been accepted by many and many have that aspect of expertise
#
wilkie
who is this?
#
tantek
cwebber2, seriously, wonderful outreach effort
#
wilkie
evanpro: we have 4 new applicants including those from GNU Social and Diaspora. it looks like [outreach] has been helpful
#
MarkCrawford
Chris - it would be great if you could pass along the groups you contacted and the results to the IG for their liaison responsibility
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2++
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 4 karma
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wilkie
evanpro: are there other groups we should be reaching out to?
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tantek
cwebber2, to be clear, selfdogfood is not just dogfood (run the software themselves), but the *self* aspect is about using it on their primary identity on the web.
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wilkie
cwebber2: one group I considered is buddycloud. they are using XMPP and maybe that is just too different.
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wilkie
cwebber2: somebody did mention that they might be interested in interop.
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wilkie
cwebber2: there may be a low chance, but maybe the ello folks could be pestered considering their anti-facebook views.
#
shepazu
have we reached out to Ello?
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wilkie
evanpro: I think ello is reasonable to reach out to
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tantek
shepazu yes, some folks from the indieweb community have reached out.
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wilkie
evanpro: does anybody want to take an action to discuss this with ello?
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: tracking our outreach efforts
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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Zakim
+??P14
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evanpro
ack shepazu
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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tantek
re: discuss with Ello, they seem interested but interop not a priority for them
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wilkie
shepazu: I reached out to the list if anybody reached out to ello, reply was that indieweb did. what was the result?
#
tantek
but hey, let's have another group reach out to them and try again :)
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evanpro
ACTION: evanpro email to Ello about participation in the WG
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trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent
records action 1
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trackbot
Error finding 'evanpro'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
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wilkie
tent.io isn't surprising heh
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tantek
perhaps the more groups reach out to them, eventually they'll raise the priority for them
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cwebber2
excellent
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
thanks evanpro
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tantek
wilkie - I'm sad about tent.io's response / status :(
#
cwebber2
and thanks for previous outreach tantek
#
wilkie
evanpro: again, I think this is an important ongoing effort. I appreciate cwebber2 focusing on it. we have 10 minutes left.
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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wilkie
evanpro: I added an issue about github and w3c tracker. I noticed we are tracking issues in both places. I want to make sure that we are ok with this process.
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tantek
more on Ello documentation / discussion: http://indiewebcamp.com/Ello
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wilkie
evanpro: if we use github to track issues on documents and w3c tracker for general issues/actions that makes sense, but I wanted to make a point to clarify anything wrong.
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wilkie
evanpro: in particular, I want to ask james (jasnell) who is using github issue tracking about how he feels
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wilkie
jasnell: I have no problem with it
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wilkie
evanpro: seems good
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tantek
if it's not broken, don't fix it?
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MarkCrawford
are we ok with using github and the W3C process?
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wilkie
evanpro: seems we have no issue with using both so let's put this to bed.
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MarkCrawford
q+
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Zakim
sees MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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evanpro
ack MarkCrawford
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
harry joined the channel
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wilkie
MarkCrawford: it is not a question with using both, my question is are we ok with respect to the w3c process in using both
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tantek
hey MarkCrawford - would it be ok to ask you as IG chair to reach out to Annotation WG to get use-cases from them and document them so that we make sure WG develops building blocks that Annotation WG can use?
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sandro
+1 fine by w3c process
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wilkie
evanpro: my understanding is yet, but maybe somebody on staff could elaborate more
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Zakim
-dret
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elf-pavlik
evanpro, we will go for 45 more min?
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wilkie
evanpro: sandro says it is fine wrt w3c process. so we will continue to make organic use of github and w3c trackers.
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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wilkie
evanpro: let's move on. next is activity stream issues/actions
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wilkie
TOPIC: Activity Streams issues/actions
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dret
Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim
+dret; got it
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wilkie
jasnell: most of the items deal with primarilily with JSON-LD base
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tantek
evanpro time check - do we intend to work on AS issues for remainder of call?
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wilkie
jasnell: much of these original concepts are leftovers from when we were kinda JSON-LD aligned but things weren't always compatible
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evanpro
tantek: yes
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tantek
evanpro ok thanks.
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harry
sorry, dropped off call due to internet reasons, dialing back in
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harry
Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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wilkie
jasnell: what I have done in a proposed update to the draft is a number of edits where I took the natural language value out and depend on JSON-LD mechanisms for that functionality
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evanpro
We also scheduled 90 minutes today specifically to catch these items
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Zakim
-??P8
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wilkie
jasnell: I also refactored as:Link though there is still some controversy
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evanpro
Sorry, incorrect, we've got 60 minutes on the agenda
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wilkie
jasnell: the change is basically that the current spec doesn't work properly. the current version fixes that. it's an incremental step that doesn't please everybody, but is a good step.
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MarkCrawford
q-
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Zakim
+??P8
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wilkie
jasnell: I would like to get his merged into the draft
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wilkie
s/his/this
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wilkie
jasnell: I understand some parts are still controversial. but merging them into the editors draft is not marking them resolved, just giving us a base to work from.
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wilkie
evanpro: that makes a lot of sense to me from here
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wilkie
evanpro: I want to make sure that the people involved in this discussion are ok with that. which means we are reviewing the editor's draft making sure we are addressing these issues and see next week if these are still open.
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wilkie
jasnell: yep
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wilkie
evanpro: so people pushing these on the agenda, elf-pavlik dret oshepherd, are we ok with this?
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evanpro
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
On the phone I see jasnell, tantek, Arnaud, cwebber2, Sandro, rhiaro (muted), +1.541.410.aabb, MarkCrawford, aaronpk, wilkie, elf-pavlik (muted), ??P5, Doug_Schepers, evanpro,
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Zakim
... ??P14, dret, ??P8
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elf-pavlik
sure, let's review it further
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wilkie
evanpro: ok sounds good. I'm comfortable with that too.
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wilkie
evanpro: great. we are at the end of our agenda. anything else we need to deal with before we close?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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dret
maybe encourage people to donate vocabularies?
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Zakim
sees dret on the speaker queue
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evanpro
ack dret
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
dret - any vocabulary in particular?
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik was already muted, elf-pavlik
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wilkie
dret: so, I was trying to start to compile a list of the vocabularities people are using with AS1. evanpro is the poster-child by creating a list for pump.io, so it would be great if others did that as well.
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tantek
dret, take a look at https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry and https://microformats.org/wiki/h-card and https://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite for vocabularies that are being used that are roughly compatible with AS
almereyda joined the channel
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tantek
jasnell, where's that work we did at/post TPAC?
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tantek
on AS/microformats compat?
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wilkie
dret: implementers: can we get something similar to what evanpro has for other implementations? so we can better understand what people are doing so far in order to develop a base vocab for AS2
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jasnell
tantek: the microformat stuff?
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: AS basic schema, microformats, schema.org
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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tantek
jasnell yes
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dret
evan++, thanks for reaching out to mikael
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Loqi
evan has 1 karma
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evanpro
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
unmutes elf-pavlik
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss AS basic schema, microformats, schema.org
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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wilkie
jasnell: that makes a lot of sense to me. another thing might be to look at StatusNet/GNU Social. I could help out with the process.
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jasnell
need to get that written up and added as an appendix for now
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jasnell
wikie: that wasn't me that said that
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tantek
elf-pavlik: there's schema.org which is not popular in the group.
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evanpro
wilkie: that was me
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tantek
elf-pavlik: then there's ActivityStreams
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wilkie
s/jasnell/evanpro/
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tantek
elf-pavlik: then microformats version popular with indiewebcamp group
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tantek
elf-pavlik: can see if we can coordinate, converge it
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Zakim
- +1.541.410.aabb
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Zakim
-Sandro
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tantek
elf-pavlik: wondering in particular how can we use microformats, do we need to add more elements?
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wilkie
elf-pavlik: I would like to take time to clarify that we may need to coordinate vocab differences and how we or others may have to extend to support things.
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
tantek
(sorry was that a question for me?)
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tantek
q+ to explicitly note the work James and I have been doing on AS2/microformats2 compat
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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evanpro
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to explicitly note the work James and I have been doing on AS2/microformats2 compat
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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wilkie
evanpro: the work that eric and james is doing is good. not sure where we should go with that. wrt vocabs, do we put them in the social API or do we address it elsewhere.
#
wilkie
tantek: for those not on IRC, and TPAC we had a lot of good discussion about interop much like what elf-pavlik is talking about.
#
wilkie
tantek: jasnell and I took an action to look at interop/overlap between microformats and AS model.
#
oshepherd
I have been wondering lately about just dropping the "post" verb from AS (instead you just put the object in place)
#
wilkie
tantek: we have a good start on that. we have a document (linked above) that shows you how if you have a consumer for AS how to be a consumer of microformats as well and how to model them. this is a great step.
#
wilkie
tantek: it would be nice to see if there are AS consumers today that would take a look at this document and see if it makes sense to them. we are looking for feedback.
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
caseorganic joined the channel
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harry
Zakim, IPcaller is hhalpin
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Zakim
+hhalpin; got it
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cwebber2
would be nice to have a pandoc for metadata :)
#
wilkie
tantek: there are libraries and such available to test.
#
wilkie
evanpro: so it is 2:00. I think we have an open question to talk about vocabularies. maybe we can put that on the agenda for next week and continue discussion on the mailing list.
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elf-pavlik
i would like to propose evanpro and tantek trying to get their personal websites to interoperate :)
#
Zakim
-??P14
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tantek
elf-pavlik lol
#
tantek
we did that in the past :)
#
wilkie
evanpro: any other discussion?
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dret
thanks everybody!
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cwebber2
yay, thanks everyone!
#
Zakim
-evanpro
#
wilkie
evanpro: thanks everyone! bye.
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Loqi
woot
#
Zakim
-jasnell
#
Zakim
-dret
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elf-pavlik
thanks everyone evanpro++ wilkie++
#
Zakim
-??P8
#
Zakim
-tantek
#
Zakim
-MarkCrawford
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cwebber2
yes thank you wilkie !
#
Zakim
-Arnaud
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harry
thanks everyone!
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Zakim
-aaronpk
#
tantek
via tantek.com -> PuSH/Atom/AS -> statusnet
#
Zakim
-rhiaro
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wilkie
no problem! typing skills++
#
Zakim
-cwebber2
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Zakim
-hhalpin
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Zakim
-Doug_Schepers
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tantek
thanks wilkie for minuting! hope it was ok that I supplemented.
#
harry
trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been jasnell, tantek, evanpro, oshepherd, elf-pavlik, rhiaro, Arnaud, bblfish, wilkie, cwebber2, +1.541.410.aaaa, dret, Sandro, Shane, hhalpin,
#
Zakim
... +1.541.410.aabb, MarkCrawford, aaronpk, Doug_Schepers
#
Zakim
-elf-pavlik
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wilkie
tantek: thanks for that
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/11-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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Zakim
-??P5
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RRSAgent
ACTION: evanpro email to Ello about participation in the WG [1]
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evanpro
trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been jasnell, tantek, evanpro, oshepherd, elf-pavlik, rhiaro, Arnaud, bblfish, wilkie, cwebber2, +1.541.410.aaaa, dret, Sandro, Shane, hhalpin,
#
Zakim
... +1.541.410.aabb, MarkCrawford, aaronpk, Doug_Schepers
#
tantek
evanpro++ for ending the telcon precisely on time!!
#
Loqi
evanpro has 2 karma
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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evanpro
Oh, thanks harry
#
wilkie
that was rstatus reaching out to them when they were getting started
#
wilkie
that and a few other issues
#
wilkie
to be fair, perhaps that was aggressive of us, heh
#
tantek
wilkie, wow
#
tantek
I just don't even
#
wilkie
hey, elf-pavlik is on there :)
#
tantek
and benwerd! (creator of idno/Known)
#
tantek
ROFL: "I think it's really unfortunate that people are building platforms on top of platforms on top of platforms, but I guess we'll all figure it out someday."
#
wilkie
blaine cook
#
tantek
Oh klabnik, so dependable for the lols
#
aaronpk
wow that's quite the collection of people in that thread
#
evanpro
elf-pavlik: I'll be implementing the API and federation protocol we standardize in this group
#
tantek
and maxogden too(!)
#
elf-pavlik
evanpro, what would you need just to echange status updates with tantek ?
#
evanpro
Federation protocol
#
evanpro
Which we will be standardizing
#
evanpro
In this WG
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: probably work by both of us on our sites
#
Zakim
-wilkie
#
Zakim
T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
#
Zakim
Attendees were jasnell, tantek, evanpro, oshepherd, elf-pavlik, rhiaro, Arnaud, bblfish, wilkie, cwebber2, +1.541.410.aaaa, dret, Sandro, Shane, hhalpin, +1.541.410.aabb,
#
Zakim
... MarkCrawford, aaronpk, Doug_Schepers
#
tantek
my site is still supporting only legacy AS/Atom+PuSH0.3 Federation
#
evanpro
elf-pavlik: I'd be happy to see you, personally, make decisions about how you're going to spend your time on social interop, especially if you'd like to work on some early experiments
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: how about your personal site? :)
#
elf-pavlik
evanpro, i plan to just enable WebMention soone to get some hands on experience
#
tantek
which social publishin formats + protocols are you implementing on your personal site? :)
#
evanpro
elf-pavlik: good idea!
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: great!
#
elf-pavlik
just need to write middleware which sprinkels some microformats on RDFa i publish
#
oshepherd
is mulling over building an ActivityPump "demonstration" server
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: if you need any help with h-entry etc. markup, please feel free to ask in #indiewebcamp IRC on Freenode
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, wilco!
#
oshepherd
But I don't think AS2 is yet in such a state that doing so is feasible..
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: and if you want to more generically discuss RDFa/microformats interop, beyond just personal/s���2l site stuff, definitely drop into #microformats IRC on Freenode
#
tantek
both are reasonably active, though #indiewebcamp more so because it is more focused
#
elf-pavlik
oshepherd, we could try to massage further how your ActivityPump NOTIFY and WebMention compare https://github.com/oshepherd/activitypump/issues/1
#
elf-pavlik
besides existing implementations ;)
#
oshepherd
So tantek, what are your thoughts on dropping the "post" verb from the AS spec? it would bring AS and h-entry closer into alignment, and also remove a pain point with AS1 as a social protocol (you reply to the object, but the recipients are associated with the post activity)
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, i plan to get back on habit to idle on IRC channels, just need to fix my setup!
#
wilkie
oh right, there isn't anything in evanpro's social API list about identity or discovery. that is beyond the scope of what we are looking at right now?
#
oshepherd
wilkie: Those are probably closer aligned with the federation protocol aspect?
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tantek
elf-pavlik: it's ok, IRC is only a priority if you need help - you might be able to do everything purely by using various wiki pages
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tantek
and if not - that's a good thing to point out!
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tantek
oshepherd: we debated the whole "do we even need verbs" at the TPAC f2f
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tantek
and there was surprisingly little pushback to "just" dropping verbs and nouning everything
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tantek
wilkie yeah I think identity is an aspect (interface?) of Social API, but not directly in Social API - if that makes sense
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elf-pavlik
current draft suggests thay verb may go away
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tantek
wilkie, I'm still reading that github issue thread
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oshepherd
tantek: So I think there is much merit to Activities (both for stateful things - like follow/unfollow) - but I think removing the "Post" and probably also "Share" activities is valuable
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oshepherd
("Share" because quite often what one wants to do is "Repost" - i.e. share /with commentary/, and the activity doesn't permit that)
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tantek
I still don't understand "Share" in the generic sense. In the "synonym for Repost" sense, I prefer repost.
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tantek
I see "share with commentary" as simply "comment with quotes"
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tantek
I shouldn't say "simply". It's not a simple thing.
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elf-pavlik
have anyone read my cc from conversation about interest to implement Share intent in Firefox? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2014Nov/0105.html
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elf-pavlik
you can find the original message in the verry bottom, below my ramblings ;)
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oshepherd
I see comment as "minor" - subsiduary to the original post itself, maybe sometimes 'hidden' from your feed (to avoid bombarding you with people's conversations you aren't interested in), while "repost/share" is "major" - same kind of importance to posting new content of your own
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oshepherd
And I still see value in the standard actor/author+object+target structure for activities in general, FWIW
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elf-pavlik
tantek, do you have some collective streams in #IndieWeb ? not my personal wall but our collective wall
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oshepherd
But I think that the unification of "Everything in your feed is an activity" is seductvely attractive and yet in practice wrong
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elf-pavlik
we could represent this irc chan as stream of activities but non of us owns it as individual
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wilkie
the verb, to me, has been nice for internationalizing arbitrary activities: http://hotsh.github.io/lotus.i18n.js/demo/
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tantek
elf-pavlik: re: collective streams in #IndieWeb yes - I believe the IRC logs are a good example of that :)
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elf-pavlik
tantek, would you have copy of what you post on irc on your personal site?
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tantek
elf-pavlik: that's been debated in the channel recently
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elf-pavlik
hmm... hard to believe ;)
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tantek
both in terms of POSSE and PESOS
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elf-pavlik
i plan to start with PESOS for irc and mailing lists
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aaronpk
quite a bit of discussion about that IIRC
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tantek
oshepherd: do you have documentation of where this is a problem? re: "Everything in your feed is an activity" is seductvely attractive and yet in practice wrong
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tantek
elf-pavlik: great! ownyourdata :)
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elf-pavlik
for POSSE i need to ping friends working on http://sockethub.org/
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tantek
that would be even better
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wilkie
did the minutes get generated or do I have to do that?
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wilkie
ok I found them
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tantek
wilkie - looks like it worked except when I scribed it shows as me in IRC
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wilkie
it is interesting that this irc channel is really only social on Tuesdays
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tantek
search for "somebody else scribe plz" :)
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tantek
wilkie - I do check the logs every day to see if anyone is chatting
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wilkie
I'll fix it in [http] post!
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tantek
I have this bookmarked: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today which redirects to the current day
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oshepherd
tantek: So the big one is that, for pump.io the recipients of the post activity that creates your object control the accessibility of that object. If you want to reply to an object, you need to have seen that activity, else your server doesn't know who to address your response to
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tantek
oshepherd: agreed that ACLs are another challenge, yet I'm not sure how ACLs imply needs for verbs
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oshepherd
They don't. They're exactly why the post verb needs to die
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tantek
(!!!)
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tantek
nouning++
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Loqi
nouning has 1 karma
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tantek
I just realized harry's citation of W3Cmemes *image only* left out important context: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/101463483242/hydra-cg-cut-one-ontology-off-two-grow-in-its
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tantek
(from reading the minutes)
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tantek
wilkie ^^^ that's probably a good substitute for what harry linked to
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harry
Yes, it was a "please let's not repeat web services in RDF" plea but not sure where meme came from.
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oshepherd
Whether you see every other type of activity as a noun or a verb is another matter
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tantek
(assuming you're fixing up the minutes in (http) post as you say :) )
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tantek
oshepherd: that's reasonable.
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oshepherd
Having all activities look alike is important from the perspective of making sure servers know what to do with them
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tantek
oshepherd: indeed, a lot of us in the indieweb community have come to a similar conclusion: having posts (h-entry s) all (re-)use common properties is important from the perspective of making sure readers know what to do with them.
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tantek
this is based on implementation experience of both publishers and readers
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oshepherd
curses Yammer for doing weird things (like notifying me of "private messages" which are part of a conversation). Wait, this is just Yammer being Yammer
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tantek
wilkie: gosh darn that tent thread was long
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wilkie
tantek: uh yeah. and further reading in issue 6, and some other one
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tantek
frankly I prefer both the attitude and even partial results so far in this WG
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wilkie
it's like 'why not ostatus' 'why not activity streams' 'why not webfinger'
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tantek
I'm really happy that jasnell and I at least were able to produce this as a decent interop starting point: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Microformats_Mapping
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wilkie
this is really useful
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tantek
thanks wilkie, really appreciate you taking a look
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oshepherd
Ooh, Microsoft just patched into all current Windows versions support for the TLS 1.2 cipher suites TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 and TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (plus non DHE versions of the previous nobody should care about)
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wilkie
tantek: no problem. the stuff I'm working on is mostly 'ok pull this activity from this place. figure out what it is. ok, now you can call 'to_html' or 'to_json' or w/e and get microformated html partial or AS1/2 or w/e' I'm very interested in abstracting out for interop, so this is immensely useful.
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oshepherd
My watch just announced that it is "looking forward to learning more about" me. This is an interesting future we live in
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wilkie
yeah, it is an interesting future to live in when I'm now afraid of wrist watches.
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tantek
I keep a wristwatch to track sunrise / sunset times.
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tantek
with a 24hr hand
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Zakim
tantek, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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tantek
Zakim, end
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Zakim
I don't understand 'end', tantek
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tantek
Zakim, bye
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oshepherd
should add the ability to post random stuff from his watch
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wilkie
add it to the use-case list
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oshepherd
aaronpk: Yeah, except probably Pump.io and Moto360 :P
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oshepherd
(well definitely on the latter aspect)
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