#social 2015-02-18

2015-02-18 UTC
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tantek just barely!
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tantek purely editorial!
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tantek again purely editorial!
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tantek grammar fix
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elf-pavlik issue-12
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trackbot is looking up issue-12.
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trackbot issue-12 -- Action Types Structure and Processing Model -- raised
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/12
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elf-pavlik tantek, could you please add to issue-12 ^ links to references which provide more background to your interpretation of the situation, which you shared during yesterday's telecon? http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-02-17/line/1424198505585
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elf-pavlik harry, joning #socialig? telecon in ~12min
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harry I will join before telecon
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tantek hey elf-pavlik why are you an apologist for schema.org?
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elf-pavlik hi tantek, i guess you refer to my comment on wiki?
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tantek go read this: http://schema.org/docs/faq.html#3
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tantek stop dreaming about w3c control of schema.org
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tantek next time please do your homework before claiming bias, especially when there are already citations
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tantek and I do mean my question - why do you defend a closed group of big companies?
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tantek it doesn't make sense with everything else you are for.
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elf-pavlik i follow work in public-vocabs and github repo, your description looked very far from my experience
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elf-pavlik did you base it on this faq or actually followed/particiated in some of that work?
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tantek I and others have directly confronted schema.org leaders *in person* about their decision making and this has been recorded as part of the 2013 W3C Social Standards Workshop
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elf-pavlik link?
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elf-pavlik please :)
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tantek this is what I mean about you not doing your home work
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tantek go read the 2013 W3C Workshop on Social Standards IRC, minutes, tweets etc.
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elf-pavlik BTW i remember reading some old minutes where schema.org managed to get you and Manu to agree on something ;)
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tantek and stop open-washing schema
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tantek I have been involved with these discussions since schema.org was announced
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elf-pavlik searching...
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elf-pavlik harry, do you have minutes from that workshop by any chance? ^
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tantek Harry was there as well and can confirm my description
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harry see report of workshop
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elf-pavlik tantek, also harry as W3C staff doesn't reject schema.org a this moment
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tantek you're in a fantasy world if you think any W3C lists or github issues have any level of "control" over schema
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Syntax Comparison]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81662&oldid=81548
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harry to be precise, W3C is in ongoing negotiations with schema.org
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harry we've had some success in getting them to harmonize their IPR policy
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tantek harry to be precise, the current state is that schema.org is a private corporate oligopoly
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tantek it's good to be working on things
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elf-pavlik checking tantek's edit to wiki
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harry Thus, formal and normative dependencies on schema.org should not be part of W3C specs right now
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tantek as I did with confronting them about their patent policy for years
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tantek note that had I not confronted them about their anti-open patent policy at the 2013 workshop (and before), that Guha would not have come out there to talk
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tantek nor would they have bothered to change it
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tantek elf-pavlik: did you read what harry just said?
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harry yes, we were very happy the patent policy on schema.org finally changed
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tantek repeating it to make sure you got the message:
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elf-pavlik tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 152 karma
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tantek "formal and normative dependencies on schema.org should not be part of W3C specs right now"
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tantek so stop defending schema.org - and instead, please boldly confront it for what it is - openwashing by large companies
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elf-pavlik while "to be precise, W3C is in ongoing negotiations with schema.org"
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harry but no, we can't have formal dependencies right now, but we are in ongoing discussions with schema.org to see if such things could be possible in the future.
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elf-pavlik tantek, can we keep it please as open issue?
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harry There's a number of paths forward, all of which have been outlined to Google, such as snapshots/member submissions, etc.
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tantek elf-pavlik: why are you so hopeful about large companies that no incentive to be helpful, nor are participating in Social Web WG?
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tantek elf-pavlik: why do you prefer opinions of people outside Social Web WG, above those of people participating *IN* Social Web WG.
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tantek ?
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tantek elf-pavlik: why? harry's point is quite clear
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elf-pavlik tantek, what do you think about those developments https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXw8g-FbemI
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tantek no time to wade through a video sorry
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elf-pavlik tantek, my apologies if i stated my comments to bold :(
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Loqi it'll be ok
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elf-pavlik i really appreciate your work and engagement
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tantek elf-pavlik: no, you stated your comments *without* looking at the citaitons provided, and with a bias for naively trusting large companies which frankly you should be ashamed of
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elf-pavlik at the same time i also recognize work done by *people* working on schema.org no matter my opinon about corporatoins standing behind it
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tantek elf-pavlik: work done *people* can be good - if they put it in the public domain for example.
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tantek otherwise, as long as it feeds into a privately controlled entity, it is not worthy of ANY standards discussion, EXCEPT as *prior art* to consider as part of research
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elf-pavlik well they put work on the same license as W3C just don't open the control over the process
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tantek which I *do* consider, strongly, to be clear
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tantek elf-pavlik: why are you still apolgizing for those being less open? why even bother?
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tantek raise your standards, work with and prefer those that work *more* openly
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tantek instead of rationalizing time / resources with those that are less open
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tantek do we (those that are more open) not deserve your respect and time more than those that are more closed?
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elf-pavlik call me naive but i think we can find graceful solution withot fight, it looks like W3C also has some hopes on that
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tantek elf-pavlik: we do not want a graceful solution. we want as open a solution as possible. and yes that means fighting for it.
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elf-pavlik BTW https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2015Feb/0052.html
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tantek elf-pavlik: just as you passionately fight for JSON-LD compatibility because you believe in SemWeb / RDF model etc.
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elf-pavlik shortly after my issue https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/284
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tantek please also fight just as passionately for those that work *more* openly
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tantek rather than rationalizing those who do not
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elf-pavlik tantek, i don't say you don't have good reasons for that, but do you really consider yourself not biased on this topic?
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tantek elf-pavlik: arguments based on bias < argument based on citations
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elf-pavlik i admit bias on RDF / Linked DAta
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tantek elf-pavlik: such biases, whether for / against RDF / Linked Data are irrelevant
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tantek if you make good arguments based on use-cases, citations, etc.
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tantek it doesn't matter what the other biases are
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social syntax/Patterns]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81663&oldid=81661
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elf-pavlik I just provided two links which show tha as not a member of 'oligarchy' i have certain influence on work in schema.org
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tantek elf-pavlik: which is why I *defend* your use-cases etc. even though we may have very different opinions on syntax/plumbing.
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tantek those different opinions (what you're calling bias) on syntax/plumbing are irrelevant compared to solving problems for users
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tantek elf-pavlik: the extension mechanism thing is actually an insult to open companies
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elf-pavlik and developers
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tantek extension mechanisms are a ghettoiziation
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tantek and no - the extension mechanism issue dates back to 2011
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tantek long before you filed a github issue about it
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elf-pavlik do you have reference to this 2011 dicsussion ?
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tantek look up 2011 Schema Summit at Microsoft Campus Mountain View
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tantek there are IRC logs
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tantek there was another summit the next year too
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tantek which went even worse :(
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tantek with schema folks being very rude to anyone asking for more openness
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tantek there is a very long history of schema folks being private, controlling, and rude to open communities
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elf-pavlik tantek, sad that you might felt upstet about my comment on a wiki :( but at least we have chance to dig into that issue :)
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Loqi it'll be ok
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tantek elf-pavlik: yes, sad that you would claim bias without giving the benefit of the doubt to questioning large corporations, which should and must always be questioned
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tantek as large corporations are far more often the source of greedy controlling misbehavior than any individual I have ever known
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tantek elf-pavlik as an example, you and I put ALL of our standards work and discussions in the open, VERY open, most of it public domain even
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tantek we are far more alike in that way
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elf-pavlik BTW did you attend Schema.org + Social WG meeting during last TPAC?
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tantek than *any* large corporations, who by default put MOST of their "standards" work and discussions in private closed proprietary projects.
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tantek I was late for that conflict due to conflicts but Harry attended so I trust him to accurately represent it and what happened.
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tantek Frankly until the individual people / companies from them join the W3C Social Web WG *with no special privileges*, I don't care nor have time for them. Nor should you.
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tantek We all in this working group agreed to work very openly and contribute our work very openly.
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tantek We should demand that everyone else do so as well.
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elf-pavlik tantek, as I said, I appreciate your contributions and admit posting my coment in to bold way, at the same time i feel uncomfortable hering from you what i *should* and *shouldn't* do...
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elf-pavlik but possilby just matter of how we tend to formulate our sentences and not knowing each other in person :|
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tantek elf-pavlik: hence why I'm *questioning* more than saying should / should not
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tantek I'm merely stating should / should not based on my optimistic appraisal of what you are working for / fighting for.
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elf-pavlik ok, thank you i'll adjust my way of interpreting your words )
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tantek My point is we have more similar values than those bigcorp companies do - as does this working group (similar values)
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tantek thus with similar values for openness, we *should* be working and helping each other more
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tantek rather than defending those that are less open
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tantek and frankly, those that are *more* powerful
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elf-pavlik do you think W3C would make compromise in negotiations with schema.org?
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tantek Schema, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, Yandex do not need your help in justifying themselves
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tantek they are already all dominant market players
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elf-pavlik which Harry just explain currenly happen?
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tantek we are tiny individuals
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tantek I'm hoping that W3C holds firm to its values of openness in any negotiations
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tantek and does not give in to large company corporate pressures
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elf-pavlik harry, can you confirm that ^ ?
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harry I'm not actually doing the schema.org discussions, that's Ralph Swick.
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harry I know W3C would prefer an open and transparent governance process with stable snapshots
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tantek elf-pavlik: I'm not sure what's to confirm. I only expressed my *hopes* :)
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harry we'll see how that pans out
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tantek either way - what we have to work with is the *current state*
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harry at the moment, yes
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harry so again, no formal dependencies on schema.org - although URI-based extensibility for vocabularies should allow those that want to use schema.org to use it
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tantek and that's where I am asking you, elf-pavlik to please prefer those of us that are working more openly, instead of defending those that are large corporations (with default malintent) who are working more closed
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elf-pavlik reading http://www.w3.org/People/#rswick
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elf-pavlik tantek, I see IndieWeb camp folks getting in conflicts *also* with people who do great OPEN work http://manu.sporny.org/2013/json-ld-is-the-bees-knees/
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elf-pavlik BTW did you have chance to see https://plus.google.com/+ManuSporny/posts/TnYc6R1nnpV
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tantek elf-pavlik: I would *much* rather than open vs. open debates *any day*
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tantek (and prefer reading either/both sides of that)
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tantek than deal with fighting against closed private bigcorp parties :(
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elf-pavlik I trust W3C with experteese in legal stuff and myself focus on technological aspects, I see a lot of quality work happening as part of schema.org
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tantek elf-pavlik: that Manu post is also very insulting to Shane
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tantek it's not a very good response
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tantek it should have focused purely on technical arguments instead of all the underlying assumptions of intent etc.
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elf-pavlik ok, it sound patronizing
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tantek compare that to http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-unneeded-spec
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tantek that entire blog post is *technical* criticism
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elf-pavlik i've read it before the answer
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tantek so I respect Shane a lot more than Manu
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tantek because Manu was very rude and patronizing in his response
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tantek being rude and patronizing is an indication that just being technical is insufficient
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elf-pavlik ehm... "Please don't waste time and energy reinventing all of the wheels. Instead, please use what already works and what works the webby way."
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tantek it is self-defeating
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tantek note that's a summary closing statement
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tantek AFTER a 100% technical discussion
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tantek and yes I think that statement could have been written better
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elf-pavlik tantek, don't you notice that JSON-LD picks up very fast and gets braod adoption?
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aaronpk this is my favorite list of citations http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-unneeded-spec#json-ld-is-an-unneeded-spec-footnote-3
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tantek regardless, elf-pavlik I'm *very* happy to have purely technical open vs. open discussions - because no matter what we figure it, it advances our state of the art!
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tantek and time spent on technical open vs. open discussions is ALWAYS better than time spent debating closed solutions / orgs
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tantek elf-pavlik: there is zero adoption of JSON-LD in anything I am involved with except the AS draft in this WG
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tantek so no I don't notice, and frankly, I value selfdogfood much more
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tantek elf-pavlik: my challenge to you is to post your notes on your own site, based on JSON-LD, instead of Twitter
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elf-pavlik tantek, Open Badges (former Mozilla project)
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elf-pavlik http://standard.openbadges.org/
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tantek Open Badges is a horrible mess and has nothing more than test adoptions in the wild.
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tantek so no
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elf-pavlik why horrible mess?
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tantek IMO Open Badges is an embarrassment for Mozilla. Glad it is no longer part of Mozilla.
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tantek elf-pavlik: for one, every single company or org that claims / promotes open badges --- does not themselves have ANY such badges on their sites.
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tantek very high amount of hype
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tantek very low amount of actual (view source) implementation
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tantek = hypocritical = horrible embarrassing mess
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tantek elf-pavlik: prove to me JSON-LD adoption by using it on your own site to post your notes instead of Twitter
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tantek until you do that - I don't care what marketing materials you point to.
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elf-pavlik challange taken :)
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood
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tantek note: I believe rhiaro is having some success - so that's another example to look at
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tantek elf-pavlik: I will be VERY HAPPY to see you owning your notes, no matter how you do it on the backend.
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elf-pavlik i still didn't get access to new VM but for now it runs here curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ --insecure -H "Accept: application/ld+json"
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elf-pavlik also http://npm.im/levelgraph-jsonld
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elf-pavlik tantek, very fair point
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tantek give me a URL, on your domain (preferably just the home page), that shows your latest notes even remotely visually similar / as good as https://twitter.com/elfpavlik
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elf-pavlik we also start using JSON-LD for Open Srouce, Open Data project for generating GTFS via https://github.com/OpenTransport/linked-gtfs
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tantek and I will say this too - if you want ANY design help or UI help, PLEASE come to #indiewebcamp on Freenode and ask for design help or UI help, and people will GLADLY provide it
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tantek no matter how you are storing or maintaining your data
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elf-pavlik very much appreciated :)
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tantek it is no problem at all, and it is why I am so passionate about IndieWeb - we are focused on the user-level, the backend level is purely a means to an ends
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elf-pavlik i remember some nice tips from Laura Kalbag during https://border-none.net/2014
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tantek it currently happens to be that microformats are the easiest/simplest way of doing that backend
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tantek however if you want to use RSS / XML / CDF / JSON / Atom / JSONLD whatever as your backend, that is up to you!
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elf-pavlik once again, very fair points!
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tantek elf-pavlik: I want to see you own your data instead of Twitter. I mean that more as a "please join us!" than a "here's a challenge".
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tantek I hope that makes it more clear.
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elf-pavlik can you content negotiate for micforormats?
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elf-pavlik i would prefer not to mix them in same response as rdfa
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aaronpk you don't need to content negotiate, since they're just part of the html
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elf-pavlik and have NO PROBLEM with implementing them even just to chat with other IndieWeb folks over that
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tantek elf-pavlik: mixing them is no problem. that's a documented FAQ.
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tantek and tommoris does so for example
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tantek tommorris.org
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tantek lots of microformats AND RDFa
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elf-pavlik i wold prefer that people get clean RDFa as a reference on my website, if someone wants microformats needs to request them explicitly
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tantek the assumption is that microformats come by default since they are less markup (space, attributes)
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tantek if anything, things that make the page larger should be options
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elf-pavlik maybe at least profile parameter? as we discuss in https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/52
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aaronpk people looking for RDFa probably won't even notice them
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tantek elf-pavlik: it's not reasonable to ask publishers to do more work for the minimal (impact on their pages) thing
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elf-pavlik ok, i can start with mixing them
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aaronpk you likely already have CSS classes for styling, so it would just look like more of that
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tantek and as I said, feel free to look at tommorris.org for an example of mixing them
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elf-pavlik yeah, my first try was with rel="me" and you may remember that i needed to ask for help with fiximg my RDFa :D
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elf-pavlik maybe just begginers bad luck ;)
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elf-pavlik no problem with doing it step by step, i'll mix those two for now
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tantek elf-pavlik: yes - we still need to fix RDFa use of 'rel' to be compatible with HTML5
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tantek I would prefer for those to not be in conflict
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tantek and I appreciate you raising the issue and finding a solution
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tantek thank you for that
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tantek elf-pavlik++
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Loqi elf-pavlik has 5 karma
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39#issuecomment-70377463
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elf-pavlik tantek, once again my apologies for my bold and rushed comment on a wiki!
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elf-pavlik and thank you for all the helpful feedback
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elf-pavlik tomorrow we run workshop to map public transport in Potenza and generate first version of GTFS
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elf-pavlik if you feel bored you can read some posts at: https://edgeryders.eu/en/unmonastery/the-unmonastery-rides-again-untransit-development-sprint
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, i may try using for some projects http://esri.github.io/esri-leaflet/examples/geocoding-control.html :)
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aaronpk :)
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tantek elf-pavlik: thanks for the heads up about that github issue. tracking now.
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tantek good luck with your workshop
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tantek I look forward to reading the write-ups of notes
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tantek hopefully on a wiki page :)
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elf-pavlik I also just pointed Kingsley to it via (oops!) mailing list (oops!) ;) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2015Feb/0069.html
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elf-pavlik switches focus away to other work o/
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rhiaro Hey, just saw a ping. My posts and metadata at rhiaro.co.uk live in a triplestore. No jsonld yet but I plan to publish a feed using activitystreams and jsonld
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rhiaro It's a bit of a convoluted setup, I started before I heard of indieweb, but I'm in the process of tidying
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AnnB for the record, I just read through that big convo that went on earlier, between tantek and elf-pavlik
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AnnB made me pretty uncomfortable, although it seems that it ended on a better note
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AnnB my concern is .. if I make comments without being fully aware of history (often likely), I will be jumped on
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AnnB (I debated about sending a private email, but since that discussion was all about openness, I am taking the risk of saying this here)
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aaronpk AnnB: I think it wasn't so much about "making a comment", but about accusing tantek personally of being biased
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aaronpk but I should maybe not speak for tantek
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