#social 2015-03-10

2015-03-10 UTC
Guest, harry, SimonTennant1, shepazu_, shepazu, bblfish, cwebber2`, Arnaud and tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good late evening #social. slowly catching back up on IRC things after a weekend away. Loqi, playback my messages please.
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Loqi
tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 4 days, 11 hours ago: I would like to discuss collections - how do you see collection maintaining list of its members vs. members maintaining list of collections they stay included in
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Loqi
tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 12 hours, 3 minutes ago: (via elf-pavlik) Evan didn't send out agenda email, maybe you will need to back him up and chair tomorrow... https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Mar/0048.html
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tantek
!tell elf-pavlik a collection is a type of post created by an author, thus the author maintains that collection, period. http://indiewebcamp.com/collection
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
jaywink joined the channel
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tantek
!tell ben_thatmustbeme yes thank you for the reminder re: chairing tomorrow. updated: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-10
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
sounds like we're set for tomorrow then.
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tantek
night night!
elf-pavlik, ShaneHudson, SimonTennant, SimonTennant1, SimonTennant2, bblfish, the_frey and pfefferle joined the channel
pfefferle, elf-pavlik, bblfish, tantek, harry, stevenroose, pfefferle_ and SimonTennant joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
action-5
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trackbot
is looking up action-5.
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trackbot
action-5 -- Harry Halpin to See if bradfitz did sign on off w3c owf licensing. -- due 2014-11-03 -- OPEN
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elf-pavlik
action-12
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trackbot
is looking up action-12.
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trackbot
action-12 -- Harry Halpin to Get clarification on PubSubHubbub -- due 2014-11-28 -- OPEN
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Loqi
harry has 3 karma
Guest and jaywink joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik++ I wouldn't have even though about daylight savings time would mean the conf call time would change for anyone who doesn't do daylight savings
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Loqi
elf-pavlik has 9 karma
Arnaud and AnnB joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
as people start to flow in
pfefferle and AdamB joined the channel
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rhiaro
Hello
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rhiaro
Is the call in ten minutes, or an hour and ten minutes?
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rhiaro
is mildly confused
tantek joined the channel
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tantek
rhiaro: in ~1:06
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rhiaro
Aha, that's what I thought, then harry's email confused me
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rhiaro
thanks :)
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tantek
email tends to be confusing in general :)
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rhiaro
controversially I like email :p
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rhiaro
It's confusing if it contains wrong informatoin..
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tantek
which it often does, e.g. subject contradicts contents. classic DRY violation.
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tantek
typical email UIs also encourage overly lengthy prose, and the longer the prose, the more likely it is confusing, contradictory, and contains incorrect information.
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rhiaro
Well, not everything can be said in a couple of lines
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rhiaro
Especially when people can talk over you, as in IRC
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rhiaro
Though I also love IRC
hhalpin joined the channel
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rhiaro
They are both good for different types of conversation
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tantek
designing for "not everything" is a very poor design methodology
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rhiaro
It's when people start trying to send me facebook messages that communication problems arise
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tantek
that's the opposite of 80/20
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rhiaro
designing for "not everything"?
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tantek
yes, your reasoning that "Well, not everything can be ..."
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tantek
choosing a solution based on edge case support is a poor way to choose a solution
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rhiaro
Well, I would say there are a great many things that deserve a few paragraphs to address and time to think over, rather than spur of the moment responses
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tantek
re: facebook messages - pretty sure you can limit FB messages to only "friends" or only a specific "group" (which you can make empty or only containing one person)
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rhiaro
But I am in academia
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rhiaro
(I just don't check facebook)
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hhalpin
waves
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tantek
"things that deserve a few paragraphs to address" yes that's what blog posts are for :)
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hhalpin
Zakim, start meeting
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tantek
hhalpin: you're off by an hour ;)
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hhalpin
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 10 March 2015
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rhiaro
Well, alright, blogposts work too
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hhalpin
just getting ready :)
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tantek
an hour in advance? ;)
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rhiaro
and for those not priviledged enough to be able to set up a blog, lengthy facebook status updates
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tantek
rhiaro: in fact, for public email list posts, better to blog them first on your own domain, and then just POSSE them to the email list. http://indiewebcamp.com/email_list#POSSE_to_an_email_list
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rhiaro
that's a good idea
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tantek
rhiaro: it's just as easy to setup a personal withknown.com site as it is a FB sign-in. and withknown won't even force you to use your "real name" or add a phone number or any of that other privacy invasive stuff
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tantek
with the current withknown.com we have crossed the "onboarding" barrier as compared to any silo
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rhiaro
hey, you know I'm sold on it - but my non-tech friends don't believe me
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rhiaro
working on it though!
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tantek
rhiaro: have them try signing up on withknown.com on their mobile device (smartphone, iPad etc.) - it's quite slick
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rhiaro
having said that, most of my non-tech friends also can't handle email reply-all, they're entirely slaves to facebook
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tantek
pretty much as simple as tumblr
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tantek
I'm not sure anyone knows how to properly "handle" email reply-all
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tantek
it's a fundamentally broken feature
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rhiaro
is there a reader/aggregator for known?
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tantek
rhiaro: the preposition you're looking for is "in", not "for"
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AnnB
what, then, is your preferred "full" communication system, Tantek? ... IRC with a logging tool, blog posts, and personal web site?
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rhiaro
s/for/in
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tantek
the notion of a separate reader/aggregator is an out of date UI concept dating back to legacy feed file readers of the early 2000s, and is largely obsolete / abandoned compared to integrated reading/posting UIs of modern social networks
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rhiaro
I meant is there a way to pick up the known posts of everyone you care to follow in one place?
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tantek
AnnB - my comms systems are continuously evolving for efficiency
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AnnB
I gather
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tantek
currently IRC is the best for discussions, even better with logging and bots.
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AnnB
I appreciate you seek efficiencies and new paths, but I am not quite there with you yet
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tantek
personal site notes are a good way to post a few sentences, and blog posts are better for a few paragraphs or more.
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AnnB
I like IRC a lot for sort of short discussions (as Amy said above), but not for longer more thoughtful discussion
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elf-pavlik
hhalpin scribe will have a lot to cut from the beggining of minutes now...
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AnnB
for me, reading everyone's blog posts is unrealistic
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AnnB
not into it at all
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tantek
AnnB, the best way to force the pursuit of efficiencies is to focus on building/creating rather than chatting/talking/discussing.
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tantek
whereas those that focus on discussions will stay stuck in whatever discussion app/forum/software/site they get comfortable with
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hhalpin
Or "imaginary" software :)
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AnnB
I understand the spirit of that statement, and to some extent applaud .. but also disagree in some ways
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tantek
not realizing that comms are a means, not an ends
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hhalpin
with purported and non-existent users
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hhalpin
which is typically what we have in some WGs.
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AnnB
seems self-centered to me
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tantek
hhalpin, it's ok, implementers have learned ot ignore those who talk about imaginary software
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hhalpin
These sorts of efforts should be "research" and not in a standards bodies.
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rhiaro
hhalpin, do you know what format the opensocial blog posts are in? I could probably look at getting them online at some point
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hhalpin
They are in a SQL drupal setup. Email greg for a copy
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tantek
rhiaro: ironic that the opensocial blog p���X were never available themselves via any form of opensocial API
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rhiaro
okay!
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tantek
perfect example of a failure to selfdogfood
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rhiaro
I don't know much about open social
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tantek
if you're not using your own "social" system/API/platform for your own notes and blog posts, you're doing it wrong, and no one should pay any attention to your social system/API/platform
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tantek
rhiaro: and now that they and W3C broke all the opensocial permalinks, no one else does either
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AnnB
but, Tantek, not all of us are geeks
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AnnB
not all of us are going to build our own system ..
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tantek
AnnB - that's a misframed misconception
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AnnB
oh well
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tantek
AnnB - from Kindergarten, we are all taught to be creatives
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AnnB
I'd say I'm plenty creative
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tantek
it is society and limiting statements like "not all of us are geeks" that destroy people's creative expression
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tantek
so I categorically reject such statements
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AnnB
but not necessarily in YOUR specific ways ..
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tantek
because they are (self)-limiting and unproductive
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AnnB
I think you're great
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AnnB
but am I wrong if I don't do things your way
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AnnB
?
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AnnB
that's how those statements come across
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AnnB
to me
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hhalpin
Tantek, at some point see emails
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hhalpin
re microformat
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hhalpin
and W3C RFF.
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tantek
AnnB - it's not my way
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tantek
it's a common expression
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tantek
the difference between doers/builders and talkers
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tantek
I didn't make that up\
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tantek
I only adopted it
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tantek
hhalpin - are there any emails from actual implementers that I should look at? or is it mostly watercooler whining? (what I remember from FedSocWebIG list etc.)
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AnnB
this may be where the brevity of IRC fails me ... I find this thread to be kind of distressing and depressing
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hhalpin
No, its from our legal staff
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hhalpin
Re the suitability of OWFa licensing and W3C RFF
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hhalpin
I'm signing off on this conversation re microformats as a normative reference, it's gone up to TimBL :)
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hhalpin
Re "self-dog-fooding", W3C is interested in members implementing products as well, so AnnB, if Boeing supports the specs, I think that would be great
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AnnB
I'm all for self-dog-fooding, for those who have the skills and the ya-yas to do it
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AnnB
I'm just saying that the vast majority of the world doesn't ... and shouldn't be dissed for not
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AnnB
I'm in awe of the effort the IndieWeb folks make, actually
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rhiaro
AnnB, I was about to go on to list the advantages I see to email, but you know what, maybe I'll write a blog post about it ;)
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tantek
AnnB - the dissing is not for lack of selfdogfooding, it is for open-ended and unrealistic complex demands
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tantek
selfdogfooding is merely one way that anyone can see the flaws is most demands
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AnnB
blog posts generally just don't work for me ... for various reasons
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tantek
AnnB, have you tried withknown.com ?
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AnnB
not totally sure what you mean, Tantek, re: "open-ended and unrealistic complex demands" ... I just want to communicate with people and discuss things
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AnnB
which is darn hard
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AnnB
no
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tantek
AnnB - most of the user stories are open-ended and unrealistic complex demands
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AnnB
but I'll go look
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tantek
by non-implementers
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AnnB
oh, you're ref'ing user stories
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tantek
and past mailling list posts / threads
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tantek
which are *even worse*
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AnnB
I guess that's the classic issue with "users" ... they're danged humans!
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rhiaro
it *is* useful to have information pushed to you (perhaps by people you don't know) rather than having to seek it out and follow it yourself
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AnnB
with all their myriad complexities
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tantek
AnnB - you've seen the car designed by Homer Simpson?
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tantek
That's the problem we're talking about here
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AnnB
no
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rhiaro
which email is good for until we solve The Discovery Problem
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tantek
rhiaro no that's called spam (information pushed to you)
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tantek
(by people you don't know)
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rhiaro
only if you don't want it
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rhiaro
I pick up lots of new and interesting information from mailing lists, sent by people I don't know
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tantek
rhiaro perhaps 90% of email I receive is stuff I don't want nor need
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rhiaro
Probably that's how I found out about this group
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tantek
opportunity cost for far more intersting things
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AnnB
so what's your vision, Tantek .. use withknown.com to post all my thoughts, pics, whatever? .. then what?
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tantek
AnnB - it's an improvement on the current state
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AnnB
of Facebook or ...???
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tantek
the way you figure out "then what?" is to take incremental steps forward
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tantek
with each step forward, the next step becomes more clear
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tantek
if you take no steps forward you will never figure out "then what?"
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AnnB
I'm all for exploration and experimentation
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tantek
then go for it!
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rhiaro
AnnB, are you staying for indiewebcamp after the f2f? :)
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AnnB
at the same time, I'm trying to figure out how to have discussions with a group of people (eg this one) in something more than IRC bits
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AnnB
Yes! but only until ~4pm Thurs
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AnnB
I'm really looking forward to it
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rhiaro
awesome :D
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AnnB
I understand your selfdogfood, etc efforts, Tantek ...
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AnnB
.. I'm still trying to understand how you think a group of people should discuss stuff
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tantek
AnnB - I hate to say it, but you can't really understand selfdogfooding until you start doing it.
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tantek
That's the point.
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AnnB
... in more than brief IRC bits
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AnnB
...??
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tantek
You may *think* you understand, but you don't. Just like you can't understand riding a bicycle until you try riding one.
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AnnB
true on trying
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AdamB
in this context, what is selfdogfooding?
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AdamB
writing code to host my own site?
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tantek
AnnB - indiewebcamp community has been built rapidly and created amazing simple protocols and formats WITHOUT ANY EMAIL LIST
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tantek
that's the point
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tantek
we have found the enemy, and the enemy is the medium of email, which encourages talkers instead of doers.
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AdamB
or using a service that does has already written the code?
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AnnB
I see this with my niece, too
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tantek
AdamB LMGTFY
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rhiaro
tantek, I see a Reader and Notifications listed under 'itches' for Known, so that's a pretty big thing missing for people used to a facebook (etc) feed
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tantek
rhiaro: agreed
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AnnB
regardless, it sounds like you are communicating great with a highly selective group of geeks
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AnnB
... how do you communicate with the rest of the world? or do you?
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tantek
AnnB - no - we are communicating with those that prioritize creating over talking.
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AnnB
I see that
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tantek
anyone can choose to make that their priority
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tantek
but most apparently choose not to, for whatever reason
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AnnB
but that sounds like you're saying you do not communicate with others
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AdamB
i think that definition is unrealistic for the world .... 99% of people can not build their own creations
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AnnB
"my/our way or the highway" is how that comes across
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tantek
AnnB, no it is a matter of prioritization and maximizing signal to noise ratio.
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tantek
AdamB - see above about Kindergarten vs. later socialization.
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tantek
AnnB - it doesn't matter, talkers on email lists will never build anything
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tantek
so the question is, do you want tools you can use? or do you want endless conversations about future tools?"
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AnnB
hmm .. maybe the gap here is that I was thinking about general discussion adn communication, and you're talking about "building"
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tantek
AnnB - without building, there are no tools.
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rhiaro
for indieweb this makes sense, but I think not so much for this group - to some extent, sure, but there are also a lot of people participating who *have* a lot of experience *building* and *doing* in earlier years, who are maybe doing something else right now without so much capacity to be on the bleeding edge, but who still have valuable contributions to make, and can do so most easily via email
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tantek
rhiaro: I question "valuable contributions" in the context of social web if they're not actually *doing it* on the social web.
Augier joined the channel
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rhiaro
the valuable contributions could be finding out what doesn't work
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tantek
which is why the email list is ignorable if you're a builder
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rhiaro
what hasn't worked in the past
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tantek
rhiaro: the only you find out what doesn't work, is by building it, and finding its limitations
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tantek
otherwise it's all handwaving talk
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rhiaro
surely it's useful to learn from other peoples' experiences on that front?
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tantek
the only *way you find out...
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rhiaro
rather than reinventing the misshappen wheel over and over
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tantek
rhiaro: actually, most of the time no
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tantek
sometimes we succeed because we don't know that we can fail
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tantek
rhiaro: it's also how simpler things get invented, by completely ignoring the complex overdesign crap of the past
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rhiaro
there's a balance between being held back by other peoples' failures, and failing to stand on their shoulders to progress further
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AdamB
tantek: are you talking about average people with your "builders" or about people in the tech/standards space ?
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tantek
AdamB - I'm talking about all creatives. Did you Google selfdogfood yet?
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AdamB
yep
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tantek
because that's certainly a tool that average people use
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tantek
alright, enough meta-talk, I'm going to work on action 26 a bit
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tantek
Action 26
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trackbot
doesn't understand that ACTION command.
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tantek
Issue 26
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trackbot
doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
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rhiaro
action-26
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RRSAgent
sees no action items
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trackbot
action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats due jan 14, 2015 -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN
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trackbot
is looking up action-26.
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tantek
trackbot, where is your source?
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trackbot
Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, where is your source?'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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tantek
trackbot, where do we submit pull requests for you?
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trackbot
Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, where do we submit pull requests for you?'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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tantek
AnnB: try setting up a withknown.com and then we can more concrete conversations about this stuff.
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AnnB
this is both a fascinating and a frustrating thread ... I feel like we're going around and around
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AnnB
I look forward to seeing you in person next week!
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tantek
AnnB - exactly as most email lists do - go around and around, and don't actually create or build anything, and why implementers are learning to ignore them.
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AnnB
maybe then I'll understand
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tantek
AnnB I look forward to seeing your withknown.com!
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AnnB
OR maybe you'll consider my points
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AnnB
(dreaming .. )
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tantek
AnnB - make your points on a blog post on your withknown.com and send me the URL
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elf-pavlik
dreaming++
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Loqi
dreaming has 1 karma
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AdamB
email the url to the wg group ;)
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tantek
or paste it in IRC since it's only one line ;)
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AnnB
oh tantek, you are dedicated to your version of the truth ... few have your passion
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tantek
AnnB - it's not my vision, it predates me
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tantek
do, don't just chat
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AnnB
I'm still trying to understand how you choose to communicate about 'normal' stuff that's not about 'building'
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AnnB
brb
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tantek
ok slowly making progress on action-26
tilgovi joined the channel
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tantek
opened a github issue on AS spec to track specifics: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/83
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tantek
this is going to take a lot of pull requests to fix
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elf-pavlik
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 161 karma
SimonTennant1 and pfefferle_ joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, which conference?
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Zakim
I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, which conferences?
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Zakim
I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, what conferences?
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Zakim
sees SW_HCLS()11:00AM active
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Zakim
sees in schedule XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, WAI_WCAG()11:00AM, T&S_DNTC()12:00PM, T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM, WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM, RWC_WAPI()12:00PM, IA_WEBPD()1:00PM
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), elf-pavlik
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Arnaud
elf, that only works when the meeting has been started
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Zakim
T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started
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Zakim
+ +1.971.275.aaaa
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aaronpk
Zakim: aaaa is aaronpk
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Zakim
+AdamB
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aaronpk
Zakim, aaaa is aaronpk
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Zakim
+aaronpk; got it
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aaronpk
ugh who decided on comma syntax
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Arnaud
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 10 March 2015
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tantek
hmm - Zakim is not answering again
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Arnaud
zakim, who's on the phone?
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Zakim
I notice T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has restarted
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Zakim
On the phone I see aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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Zakim
+ +1.401.305.aabb
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tantek
lol restarted
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
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ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, aabb is me
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Zakim
+ben_thatmustbeme; got it
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Zakim
+??P5
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ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
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aaronpk
wow so much noise
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Zakim
-??P5
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Zakim
+bblfish
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Zakim
+Lloyd_Fassett
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise
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Zakim
I don't understand 'who's making noise', elf-pavlik
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AdamB (56%), aaronpk (61%)
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aaronpk
weird, my phone is on mute
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Zakim
+??P7
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
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tantek
zakim, ??p7 is me
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Zakim
+tantek; got it
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elf-pavlik
i hear music?
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aaronpk (15%), Arnaud (25%), ??P7 (49%)
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ben_thatmustbeme
aarokpk, could be the line, I don't trust phone mutes
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elf-pavlik
anyone else hearing music?
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: nope
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Zakim
+??P9
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ben_thatmustbeme
wonders if elf-pavlik is having a stroke
bill-looby and Lloyd_Fassett joined the channel
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AnnB
elf, do you hear anything besides music?
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf do you smell burning?
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aaronpk
wonders if elf-pavlik dialed the wrong extension
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AnnB
w3c doesn't usually have music when on hold
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tantek
how would you describe the music?
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AnnB
(can you imagine the discussions on which music to play?)
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aaronpk
AnnB++
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Loqi
AnnB has 6 karma
#
elf-pavlik
ok now, using friend's ipad which plays tricks on me :S
#
AnnB
haha
#
Zakim
+??P10
#
rhiaro
Zakim, ??P10 is me
#
Zakim
+rhiaro; got it
#
rhiaro
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
rhiaro should now be muted
#
Lloyd_Fassett
music: the first interoperable social standard
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, ??P9, rhiaro (muted)
#
AnnB
Lloyd ++
#
Zakim
+Sandro
#
bill-looby
Zakim, ??P9 is me
#
Zakim
+bill-looby; got it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
and the snow is melting up here
#
elf-pavlik
chair: tantek
#
ben_thatmustbeme
its been a beautiful 40
#
aaronpk
waves from sunny 80-degree palm springs
#
AnnB
yak trax .. fantastic for ice
#
tantek
Zakim, who is here?
#
Zakim
On the phone I see aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, bill-looby, rhiaro (muted), Sandro
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
On IRC I see Lloyd_Fassett, bill-looby, pfefferle, SimonTennant1, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, tantek, AdamB, AnnB, Arnaud, bblfish, elf-pavlik, the_frey, shepazu, Loqi, nickstenn,
#
Zakim
... melvster, wilkie, aaronpk, KevinMarks, oshepherd, wseltzer, ElijahLynn, ben_thatmustbeme, mattl, JakeHart, bret, dwhly, bigbluehat, rhiaro, rektide, trackbot
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, bill-looby, rhiaro (muted), Sandro
#
Zakim
+??P12
#
AnnB
waves at SimonTennant1
#
aaronpk
can scribe today unless someone else wants to
#
bret
Zakim, ??P12 is me
#
Zakim
+bret; got it
#
bret
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
bret should now be muted
#
SimonTennant1
Hi AnnB
#
hhalpin
trackbot, start meeting
#
trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
#
rhiaro
's audio is a bit iffy
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
#
trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
#
Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 6 minutes ago
#
trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot
Date: 10 March 2015
#
tantek
scribenick: aaronpk
#
hhalpin
just finishing up IPR discussion with TimBL and Wendy re microformats/schema.org
#
elf-pavlik
chair: tantek
#
hhalpin
A decision will be forthcoming!
#
hhalpin
Zakim, code?
#
Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), hhalpin
#
aaronpk
going on mute
#
Arnaud
harry, this was done 10mn ago
#
aaronpk
tantek: next week there is no telcon because of f2f
#
aaronpk
... any objections to telcon for the week after?
#
aaronpk
... next telcon is schedule for the 24th as usual unless there are any objections
#
aaronpk
TOPIC: minutes from last week
#
aaronpk
tantek: any problems/suggestions for the minutes?
#
aaronpk
... anyone want to expliclty express support?
#
aaronpk
... not hearing objections and some support, declare minutes approved
#
aaronpk
TOPIC: f2f meeting
#
aaronpk
tantek: please review the f2f wiki page
#
aaronpk
... lots of description there for how to get to the venue
#
aaronpk
... looks li ke 13 participants and 3 additional observers
#
aaronpk
... in particular a couple observers fro mthe annotations WG, hope to get good cross-collaboration
#
aaronpk
... if you have specific items for the agenda, feel free to add them
#
aaronpk
... if you think you know what larger topic they fall under add them as a sublist
#
aaronpk
... please sign your agenda item so we know who is responsible for the discussion
#
aaronpk
... sandro, did you have any other suggestions?
jasnell joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
sandro++
#
aaronpk
Arnaud: food is provided by sandro, courtesy of a grant by ___
#
Loqi
sandro has 1 karma
#
aaronpk
missed the acronym sorry
#
AdamB
sandro++
#
Loqi
sandro has 2 karma
#
Arnaud
s/___/QCRI/
#
aaronpk
tantek: meeting is at 9am, are we feeding ourselves for breakfast?
#
jasnell
Zakim mute me
#
aaronpk
sandro: we could order a fruit platter and coffee
#
jasnell
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
sorry, jasnell, I don't know what conference this is
#
elf-pavlik
coffee destroys vitamine C ....
#
aaronpk
tantek: that would be a great minimum viable breakfast, let's do that and set it at 8:30
#
rhiaro
minimumviablebreakfast++
#
Loqi
minimumviablebreakfast has 1 karma
#
aaronpk
sandro: i'll make sure everything is ready at 8
#
aaronpk
AnnB: would be hlepful if people get there at 8:30 to start setting up their stuff
#
aaronpk
argh it got super loud in here
#
hhalpin
+1 food from Sandro's grant!!
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim
sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't know what conference this is
#
aaronpk
tantek: great, looking forward to seeing everyone at 8:30, dress warmly!
#
hhalpin
it seems warm in MIT now, so hopefully ice will gone
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, this is SOCL
#
Zakim
ok, elf-pavlik; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
hhalpin
there was, but it's gone!
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tantek (62%), Sandro (39%)
#
aaronpk
elf-pavlik i meant in my physical room
#
elf-pavlik
topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues
#
AnnB
dang; we might have gone sledding!
#
aaronpk
TOPIC: open issues
#
AnnB
the WG that sleds together ..
#
elf-pavlik
sorry aaronpk ...
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: will open to the floor to address any open issues
#
tantek
ack hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin, tantek on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin, tantek on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
action-5
#
trackbot
is looking up action-5.
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
action-5 -- Harry Halpin to See if bradfitz did sign on off w3c owf licensing. -- due 2014-11-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: i'd like to close out all my actions except for 14
#
elf-pavlik
action-12
#
trackbot
is looking up action-12.
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
action-12 -- Harry Halpin to Get clarification on PubSubHubbub -- due 2014-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
elf-pavlik
action-31
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
is looking up action-31.
#
trackbot
action-31 -- Harry Halpin to Will ask w3c systeam about prospect for archiving osf blog posts and perhaps other content -- due 2015-01-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
aaronpk
... basically brad fitzpatrick has not signed off on w3c licensing so pubsubhubbub cannot be normatively referenced
#
bret
is that because google wont let them?
#
elf-pavlik
action-40
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
is looking up action-40.
#
trackbot
action-40 -- Harry Halpin to Invite annotations wg -- due 2015-03-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
aaronpk
... we asked explicltly in november and he said no
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: please slow down
#
aaronpk
... i don't think it's worth me pursuing
#
tantek
let's take them one at a time
#
aaronpk
... w3c said no they won't host the opensocial blog
#
tantek
action-5 completed - no agreement to license.
#
aaronpk
... annotations wg we already have people joining
#
tantek
action-12 same as action-5
#
aaronpk
... just finished talkign with wendy and tim about normaitve referecning of microformats and schema
#
elf-pavlik
hhalpin++
#
Loqi
hhalpin has 1 karma
#
aaronpk
... it's on their agenda to have an official response
#
aaronpk
holy crap that was fast
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hhalpin++ that was a lot
#
Loqi
hhalpin has 2 karma
#
aaronpk
... tim and whitney will be around during the f2f
#
tantek
s/whitney/wendy
#
aaronpk
wow sorry
#
Zakim
-bblfish
bblfish joined the channel
#
aaronpk
sorry i'm missing some of this
#
hhalpin
I can type this
#
aaronpk
thanks
#
hhalpin
it's some detailed legalese
#
hhalpin
no worries
#
elf-pavlik
close action-5
#
trackbot
is closing action-5.
#
trackbot
Closed action-5.
#
aaronpk
i have nothing in my buffer, go ahead annb
#
hhalpin
Basically, the question over normative references to non-W3C specs
#
Zakim
+bblfish
#
elf-pavlik
close action-12
#
trackbot
is closing action-12.
#
trackbot
Closed action-12.
#
hhalpin
for the case of both microformats and schema.org
#
hhalpin
is currently being pursued by W3M
#
tantek
I asked about whether it had to do with openstand
#
elf-pavlik
close action-40
#
trackbot
Closed action-40.
#
trackbot
is closing action-40.
ShaneHudson joined the channel
#
hhalpin
in particular, the question is compatibility of microformats with OpenStand (should not be a problem)
#
elf-pavlik
close action-31
#
trackbot
is closing action-31.
#
trackbot
Closed action-31.
#
hhalpin
but there may be a legal issue around patent non-asserts (OWFa) and W3C royalty-free
#
ben_thatmustbeme
there is definitely a lot to catch up with
#
hhalpin
I think Wendy will give that some cycles
#
hhalpin
I am not a lawyer so I can't answer that type of question.
#
AnnB
Harry's note cover it; thanks
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: action-34 add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples
#
Zakim
sees tantek, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
I don't totally understand what the issue is re: microformats
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: loop me in specifically on any discussion of Microformats licensing, as i specifically discussed that with Mozilla legal
#
AnnB
aha, an instance of Tantek and email!
#
hhalpin
Basically, my non-legal opinion is OWFa seems in same space as Note Well from IETF
#
hhalpin
and thus should probably be OK (it would *not* be OK if there was no patent commits)
#
hhalpin
but I'm not a lawyer
#
aaronpk
tantek: I think the issue harry notices is when w3c can and should reference things developed outside the w3c
#
hhalpin
so I think looping in Mozilla legal with Wendy Seltzer and W3C may be a good idea
#
aaronpk
... it means that each individual WG has to go through this and ask these questions
#
aaronpk
... i'm really thankful to harry for going through it
#
elf-pavlik
hhalpin++
#
Loqi
hhalpin has 3 karma
#
aaronpk
... it's important for a w3c grouip to be able to reference rather than monolithincally bring everything into the w3c
#
AnnB
thanks for the overview
#
hhalpin
I think here is current policy:
#
hhalpin
But determining if a single spec matches that is hard sometimes
#
bret
dont forget AnnB's q
#
AnnB
s/monolithincally /monolithically/
#
aaronpk
tantek: so that leaves us with just the one open action for you?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: yes because i don't ersonally work with CONNEG (issue-14)
#
AnnB
thanks, bret; Tantek's overview answered it
#
aaronpk
... 14 is open, everything else should be closed
#
elf-pavlik
i just closed most of them!
#
bret
ah ok
#
aaronpk
... 41 we can say pending review
#
aaronpk
... do note there is a normative reference policy wich I dropped the link to
#
tantek
action-37
#
trackbot
is looking up action-37.
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/8 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
#
elf-pavlik
action-37
#
trackbot
is looking up action-37.
#
trackbot
action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/8 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
aaronpk
... the question was how do you test a data format
#
aaronpk
... the answer was effectively the testing team said if you ahve an API that consumes then test the APIs
#
aaronpk
... if we *can* test a precise wayt he w3c appreciates it
#
Zakim
sees tantek, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: presumably the way to test s data format is to write a validator, we have that with html and css, was that option considered?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: a validator would be sufficient if there were rules we could put into a w3c validator
#
aaronpk
... the w3c validation team only has so much time, so if we wrote our own validation rules they could do that
#
aaronpk
tantek: could you add that option expliciltly? the WG sould consider writing a validator for activitystreams
#
tantek
q+ to discuss what happened with opensocial permalinks
#
Zakim
sees tantek, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees tantek, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
bill-looby
q+
#
Zakim
sees tantek, elf-pavlik, bblfish, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss action-34 add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples
#
Zakim
sees tantek, bblfish, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
action-34
#
trackbot
is looking up action-34.
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
bret
ya sounds good
#
AnnB
wants some music
#
elf-pavlik
will make pull request to AS2.0 spec
#
aaronpk
sorry i can't hear elf's voice thorugh the background noise in this room
#
tantek
elf-pavlik, I don't understand how https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mixing_HTML_Data_Formats applies to the spec so I'll await to see your pull request.
Guest joined the channel
#
Zakim
-aaronpk
#
Zakim
sees tantek, bblfish, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
bill-looby
Action 15 complete just need someone ro reassign it to me from James Snell (page created here ->https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/IBM_Connections_API)
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
trackbot
Error finding '15'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
cannot hear elf-clearly either or I would have transcribed it
#
aaronpk
oh crap that's not what i meant to do!
#
Zakim
+aaronpk
#
tantek
scribenick: AnnB
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, please comment directly in W3C tracker, i'll keep it 'Pending Reveiw'
#
aaronpk
i thinnk it's going to get quieter in here in a minute, but AnnB can you take over for now?
#
bblfish
I heard elf very well though he spoke quickly
#
AnnB
sure
#
Zakim
sees tantek, bblfish, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees tantek, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme
AnnB, if needed I can take over too
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
#
elf-pavlik
action-37
#
trackbot
is looking up action-37.
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/8 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
#
aaronpk
who has a screaming baby in the background?
#
bill-looby
Issue 8 ?
#
trackbot
doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
#
tantek
issue-8
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-8.
#
trackbot
issue-8 -- Test suite for activity streams 2.0 -- open
#
AnnB
hard to scribe what the baby is saying!
#
elf-pavlik
AnnB LOL ;-)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
AnnB, its easy, gaaa, gaaaa, gooo, gooo
#
AnnB
bblfish (Henry Story): re: Issue 8 ..
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish, can you add note to ISSUE or ACTION in tracker?
#
hhalpin
bblfish can add it to tracker
#
AnnB
bbfish: discussion about how to test Activity Streams
#
AnnB
... need to test logic of ontology
#
AnnB
... do classes clash with each other?
#
AnnB
... <other examples>
#
AnnB
.. these are things one can created tests for
#
elf-pavlik
s/bbfish/bblfish/
#
AnnB
Tantek: can you make some of these tests for us?
#
AnnB
bblfish: yes
#
jasnell
the owl and json-ld context files have not been published correctly yet
#
jasnell
but they are available
#
bblfish
Action: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent
records action 1
#
trackbot
Error finding 'testing'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
#
AnnB
jasnell, can you clarify what the "no" is
#
bblfish
Action bblfish: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent
records action 2
#
trackbot
Created ACTION-45 - Testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [on Henry Story - due 2015-03-17].
#
AnnB
is in regards to
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell++
#
jasnell
(the owl is really a ttl file)
#
Loqi
jasnell has 6 karma
#
bblfish
Action-45?
#
trackbot
is looking up Action-45.
#
trackbot
Action-45 -- Henry Story to Testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN
#
Zakim
sees tantek, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees tantek, bill-looby on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack bill-looby
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
action-15
#
trackbot
is looking up action-15.
#
trackbot
action-15 -- James Snell to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
bill-looby: Action 15 needs to be transferred to me
#
jasnell
unfortunately I need to drop now
#
Zakim
-Lloyd_Fassett
#
AnnB
bye
#
jasnell
will be back on next week
#
Loqi
I added a countdown for 3/16 10:34am (#5649)
#
elf-pavlik
ciao jasnell
#
Zakim
-jasnell
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell f2f?
#
hhalpin
Where are the links?
#
Zakim
+Lloyd_Fassett
#
elf-pavlik
trackbot, status
#
trackbot
knows about these 42 users: Ann, Reuben, Adam, Mark, Tantek, Bret, wilkie, Pavlik, Laurent Walter, Amy, Harry, Sandro, DUK KI, Shane, Renato, Jonathan, Paul Changjin, Geun Hyung, Jaakko, Andreas, Arnaud, Hyejin, Bill, Fabio Luciano, Alexandre, Aaron, Evan, Benjamin, Jason, Dan, Doug, Wendy, Owen, Hyunjin, dave, James, Henry, James, Claudio, Christopher, XIAOHAI, Erik
#
hhalpin
if so, email sysreq@w3.org
#
elf-pavlik
action-15
#
trackbot
is looking up action-15.
#
trackbot
action-15 -- Bill Looby to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
#
hhalpin
he should be automatically added
#
hhalpin
maybe there is a database/nickname issue
#
elf-pavlik
action-15
#
trackbot
is looking up action-15.
#
trackbot
action-15 -- James Snell to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
#
AnnB
<confusion about how bill-looby gets added to tracker>
#
AnnB
<now think maybe he just needed to log in>
#
elf-pavlik
action-15
#
trackbot
is looking up action-15.
#
trackbot
action-15 -- Bill Looby to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
#
elf-pavlik
shows Bill Looby ^
#
aaronpk
it got quieter in here now so I can take over scribing AnnB
#
AnnB
fine with me!
#
aaronpk
scribenick: aaronpk
#
Zakim
+ +1.408.335.aacc
#
Zakim
sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
tantek
zakim, aacc is KevinMarks
#
Zakim
+KevinMarks; got it
#
tantek
ack hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
sandro joined the channel
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: there was a concern from w3c about lack of participation of opensocial members
#
tantek
scribenick: aaronpk
#
sandro
RRSAgent, pointer?
#
aaronpk
... an email to the list clarifying the situation would be helpful
#
aaronpk
...we realize SAP has left the WG and thus no plans to harmonize the social business product
#
aaronpk
... ibm would like to know if harmonization is planned with other businesses
#
tantek
action-29
#
trackbot
is looking up action-29.
#
trackbot
action-29 -- James Snell to Reach out to open social foundation participants to invite them to join the w3c social web wg -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN
#
aaronpk
tantek: is this related to action 29?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: this could be related
#
aaronpk
tantek: was there a specific concern you had related to that action?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: yes, is there any existing business you know using the connections API and is there a dependency on LDAP or others?
#
tantek
this sounds like a new issue
#
tantek
the "is anyone else" part in particular
#
aaronpk
... the the previous APIs were ATOM based so they are not likely to be changed overnight
#
bblfish
what is the connections API?
#
aaronpk
tantek: i thought i heard what sounds like a new issue
#
aaronpk
... is anyone else besides IBM going to implement or support this API and/or any related APIs?
#
hhalpin
Basically, right now we have a number of opensource developers and one social business product (IBM Connections). We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between LDP and OpenSocial planned in the future?
#
tantek
new issue?
#
tantek
what is the tracker-foo for creating a new issue?
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hhalpin
Let's get them involved!
#
AdamB
we do plan to implement AS 2.0
#
tantek
Issue: We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between LDP and OpenSocial planned in the future?
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trackbot
is creating a new ISSUE.
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trackbot
Created ISSUE-18 - We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between ldp and opensocial planned in the future?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/18/edit>.
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bblfish
yes, like which space is it?
#
tantek
Action hhalpin: add details to issue-18
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trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent
records action 3
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trackbot
Created ACTION-46 - Add details to issue-18 [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-17].
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hhalpin
From W3C's perspective, it appears OpenSocial has all dropped out, we'd like to see that situation addressed.
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to discuss what happened with opensocial permalinks
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
tantek: I thought I heard you say that the w3c decided to not work on them
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: correct, the w3c does notwant to support a drupal database
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
action-30
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trackbot
is looking up action-30.
#
trackbot
action-30 -- James Snell to Ask opensocial folks about w3c archiving their blog posts -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED
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Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
bret
heh, makes sense
#
KevinMarks
can't you wget it all
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: if someone wants to re-setup the drupal instance and snapshot the HTML we would be happpy to add links to them
#
aaronpk
... the systems team does not have time to do that
#
elf-pavlik
action-31
#
trackbot
is looking up action-31.
#
trackbot
action-31 -- Harry Halpin to Will ask w3c systeam about prospect for archiving osf blog posts and perhaps other content -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED
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aaronpk
tantek: w3c has the database...
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aaronpk
hhalpin: no, opensocial has the database
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KevinMarks
who set up the drupal? it was google sites before
#
aaronpk
... contact is on the email list
#
aaronpk
tantek: let's stop referring to opensocial since they don't exist. greg wallace has the database
#
aaronpk
___: they don't care because it's too much work to set up the database, but are they willing to host html pages?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: no they don't want to host the html either
#
aaronpk
... they don't want to put any time into this
#
aaronpk
tantek: it sounds like your'e saying the systems team doesn't even have a copy of the database
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AnnB
s/___:/bblfish/
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: correct, that was not part of the deal, the deal was a domain redirect
#
aaronpk
... systems team claims they do not have the database nor the resources to maintain
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elf-pavlik
can someone who cares about those broken links just follow up on https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/31 ?
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AnnB
s/bblfish they/bblfish: they/
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aaronpk
tantek: greg is willing to share the database is my understanding
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aaronpk
... think we could put out an open call for someone to extract teh DB and provide a static snapshot?
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aaronpk
hhalpin: if someone wants to do it that would be great
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KevinMarks
might be easier to unmung it from archive.org?
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elf-pavlik
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 162 karma
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aaronpk
tantek: certainly i think it makes sense to put out an open ca
Guest joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
can we move on from broken links?
#
aaronpk
tantek: i didn't realize putting up a static copy would be so difficult
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: you'd have to reinstall drupal, import the SQL database, then snapshot every page
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aaronpk
... then probably redo any permalinks
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elf-pavlik
do we need to talk about drupal guts now?
#
KevinMarks
database antipattern in action
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bret
sounds like a bit of work
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aaronpk
... it's non-trivial amount of work
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aaronpk
tantek: harry would it be reasonable to make the minor request of you to acquire a copy of the SQL dump from greg?
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aaronpk
hhalpin: i think anyone who wants to do it can contact greg directly
#
aaronpk
... that person can email greg if they want to volunteer
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rhiaro
I'll get a copy of the db dump from Greg
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aaronpk
tantek: do we have any volunteers to acquire a SQL dump?
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rhiaro
And see if I can convert the SQL into something more useful
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elf-pavlik
sandro++
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rhiaro
I'll upload it somewhere ;)
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aaronpk
sandro: and then mail it to the mailing list so that it's in a copy of the acrhives
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Loqi
sandro has 3 karma
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tantek
rhiaro++
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Loqi
rhiaro has 16 karma
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aaronpk
tantek: i can't tell how serious you're being sandro
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aaronpk
sandro: me either, depends on how big it is
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KevinMarks
rhiaro++
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Loqi
rhiaro has 17 karma
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Loqi
rhiaro has 18 karma
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aaronpk
rhiaro++
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Loqi
rhiaro has 19 karma
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tantek
Action rhiaro: acquire SQLdump of OpenSocial site database and upload somewhere
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trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent
records action 4
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trackbot
Created ACTION-47 - Acquire sqldump of opensocial site database and upload somewhere [on Amy Guy - due 2015-03-17].
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aaronpk
tantek: okay that gets us one step closer to not having everything lost forever
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aaronpk
tantek: i had an update on action 26
#
aaronpk
action-26
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trackbot
is looking up action-26.
#
trackbot
action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats due jan 14, 2015 -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN
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AnnB
rhiaro is a peach pie
#
aaronpk
... i've started the apparently lenghty process of going through the examples
#
aaronpk
... i'll be upfront, there are some serious issues with them
#
aaronpk
... i've opene a github issue to start to document the classes of issues i'm encountering
#
aaronpk
...while trying to fix the examples
the_frey joined the channel
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Loqi
PR has 3 karma
#
aaronpk
... my approach is to document the patterns of problems as well as try to at least issue an incremental pull reuqest to fix a few examples at a time
#
aaronpk
... so that they can be reviewed by james and anyone else so that we're heading in a good direction
#
aaronpk
... i'd rather do it incrementally instead of 900 at once
#
aaronpk
... if anyone else would like to help out with this task i strongly encourage you to jump in and contribute to the detailsi nt he github issue
tilgovi joined the channel
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KevinMarks
did james make the examples by hand or form the JSON-LD?
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aaronpk
... because i'd rather make sure we have good analysius of how we are fixing the issues
#
aaronpk
AnnB: example sof which?
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aaronpk
tantek: microformats examples in AS 2.0 spec
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elf-pavlik
KevinMarks, JSON-LD normative - microformats just an informative
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AnnB
thanks
#
aaronpk
... i want to be very deliberate about fixing them, hopefully so we can acquire more comunity knowledge about how to do html markup for activity streams
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KevinMarks
that wasn't the question, elf-pavlik
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aaronpk
thanks tantek for speaking slowly and clearly
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Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
KevinMarks, i think by hand from JSON-LD
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tantek
ack aaronpk
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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KevinMarks
is there a way to transform the supposedly normative version in LD to the others
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
tantek: next subject AS 2.0
#
aaronpk
TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0
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elf-pavlik
issue-14
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trackbot
is looking up issue-14.
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trackbot
issue-14 -- as:Link adds a lot of complexity, if we keep it we need to clarify consequences of using it instead of as:Object -- open
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tantek
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: AS allows for more values to be the object or link, and i found it complicating the spec a lot
#
elf-pavlik
action-42
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trackbot
is looking up action-42.
#
trackbot
action-42 -- Pavlik elf to MediaObject - gather options for its social syntax on a wiki page -- due 2015-03-10 -- OPEN
#
aaronpk
... at this moment, the link is used mostly for images, to say for this image this is the media type and sizes
#
aaronpk
... there are a few intentions of the Link
#
aaronpk
... one is to describe the versions of images you can get for a resources
#
aaronpk
... the second one seems to be -----
#
aaronpk
... my main concern is it is expressing the same information in multiple ways
#
aaronpk
... i want to encourage everyone to consider AS Link and we can discuss in the f2f
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elf-pavlik
seperate
#
aaronpk
tantek: okay that convers the first action,
#
tantek
action-44
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trackbot
is looking up action-44.
#
trackbot
action-44 -- Pavlik elf to Collection - compare AS2 design with LDP, Hydra, Schema.org etc. -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
elf-pavlik: currently AS defines its own way of doing collections
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aaronpk
... we also ahve the LD platform and hydra working with collections
#
aaronpk
... i would like to compare all of them
#
aaronpk
... by f2f I will have a more deep comparison
#
aaronpk
... to clarify how to do collections
#
aaronpk
... collections are very important, i think it wuould be good to give it a good thoguht to implement it correctly
#
aaronpk
... i'd encourage everyone to take al ook at the issue about collections
#
aaronpk
... hopefuly at the f2f we can cdiscuss it
#
aaronpk
tantek: you mentioned there is ome discussion about collections in the Hydra group
#
aaronpk
... and you also mentioned implementing.
#
aaronpk
... do you have any references to implemenations of the converstaions
#
aaronpk
elf-pavlik: i think harry and sandro can point us to some, i wil check about hydra, i don't know about activitystreams
#
aaronpk
tantek: okay, specifically the request is for references to implementations, or even better, a public collection or container post
#
aaronpk
... that shows the structure of it. so if you can provide a permalink for how those systems publish a collection that will help with the analysis
#
aaronpk
... as a comparison, i can show you that there are folks in the indieweb community posting collections
#
aaronpk
... here is a list of permalinks of collection posts
#
aaronpk
... so see ifyou can find similar collection post with the other approaches
#
aaronpk
elf-pavlik: maybe someone from indieweb can add examples from the indiewebcamp list
#
aaronpk
tantek: you can simply add that URL and keep it as a reference
#
aaronpk
sandro: i'll take a look at what you did there and add a parallel for LDP
#
aaronpk
that was sandro right?
#
aaronpk
tantek: we have one additional agenda item
#
hhalpin
yep!
#
aaronpk
TOPIC: participation in mailing list conversations
#
aaronpk
tantek: how much time do you need for this issue
#
aaronpk
bblfish: i've been told that not everyone is following or commenting on the mailing list
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
KevinMarks
can you use the Wiki?
#
aaronpk
... the qyuestion is where is discussion happening if not the mailing list
#
aaronpk
tantek: discussion is certainly happening in the telcon and also in IRC
#
aaronpk
... to provide some background, which has been minuted,
#
Zakim
+Sandro.a
#
Zakim
-Sandro
#
aaronpk
... when harry reached out to myself and evan to co-chair the WG and ask us to bring our perspectives
#
aaronpk
... specifically for me to bring the indieweb perspective and processes
#
bret
i watch the email list, but I dont post very much
#
aaronpk
... i made the point that all the progress we've made was done without a mailing list
#
aaronpk
... part of the culture was to focus on showing by building instead of email discussions
#
aaronpk
... so I told harry i'd help co-chari but deliberately not participate in the mailing list so that I can provide the specific cultuer you asked us to bring to the WG
#
bret
i can bridge anything from the mailing to to IRC, if anyone feels the opposite about IRC
#
Loqi
bret has 55 karma
#
aaronpk
bblfish: i think we should ask the group to take a few more ___ I can't followyou around to have a discussion
#
aaronpk
... i dont think this is a reasonable thing to ask or a reasonable way to work
#
aaronpk
... idon't see how else to have a discussion
#
aaronpk
... i'm going to say we start to voteon the mailing list
#
KevinMarks
vote on having a mailing list?
#
aaronpk
... i don't know the indieweb, i don't know what they do, i heard the make al ot of noise
#
aaronpk
... i'm not sure they've done anything useful
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hhalpin
q?
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
... i don't know what they're doing because you're not in a disucssion
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ben_thatmustbeme
KevinMarks, host vosts on the mailing list
#
KevinMarks
why not sue the issues process?
#
aaronpk
... i can put an example in an email and be clear and have links, what is better? a blog? a tweet?
#
aaronpk
tantek: to answer your qeustion, the answer is yes, put it on your personal site
#
KevinMarks
s/sue/use/
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aaronpk
...and by providing that pushback, we have found two groups, people who want to discuss in email, and people who want to take up the challenge and put things on their site
#
aaronpk
... with that focus, that's what we've been able to achieve
#
melvster
could I suggest a public mailing list in addition to the closed one this group has ... that worked well with LDP ... and would be more "social"
#
aaronpk
... if you want a quick summary, we have p2p comments, replies, reposts, rsvps, invitations, all working across domains, across implementaions with numerous implementations
#
aaronpk
... that's something i understand no other group has been able to achieve
#
aaronpk
bblfish: but now i have to use the indieweb protocol to communicate with you
#
aaronpk
tantek: that's a strawman
#
aaronpk
... i just gave you a summary of what you've done
#
ben_thatmustbeme
bblfish: IRC is always available with !tell
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
bblfish: so you have an API for pinging and such, so you require i implement opensocial
#
aaronpk
tantek: i don't know of anyone who is using opensocial
#
aaronpk
bblfish: oh i meant indieweb
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: it's clear people prefer different comm channels, I do unsuccessfully try to track email wiki and irc
#
aaronpk
... i know other people try to do all three
#
bret
indieweb implementations is not required to participate here. afaict we use: github issues, mailing list, irc and wiki
#
aaronpk
... i underrstnad people have different preferences
#
aaronpk
... i would prefer it if everyone would try to check all 3 or 4
#
aaronpk
... but understand if people don't, we can't force peopel to discuss with each other, or answer all questions
#
aaronpk
bblfish: why do we still have a WG then? we should close it down and wait a year
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: we have 3 channels and a telcon
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish--
#
Loqi
bblfish has -1 karma
#
AnnB
(bblfish clarified that he misspoke about 'opensocial' .. he meant "IndieWeb")
#
aaronpk
... if you're unhappy with someone you should raise it with that person
#
melvster
bblfish++
#
Loqi
bblfish has 0 karma
#
tantek
elf-pavlik, please let's not -- people
#
elf-pavlik
melvster++
#
Loqi
melvster has 6 karma
#
elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik--
#
Zakim
-Lloyd_Fassett
#
ben_thatmustbeme
voting of the wiki worked for us on user stories
#
Loqi
You can't karma yourself!
#
AnnB
q+
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin, AnnB on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
the data shapes WG does vote on the wiki actually :)
#
KevinMarks
we did vote on user stories in the wiki
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: it soundsl ikeoyuh ave problem with tantek not responding to your emails
#
aaronpk
bblfish: no, he doesn't respond to any emails and doesn't even read them
#
KevinMarks
Open issues instead
#
Arnaud
and we did too on the stories
#
aaronpk
... so this is a problem of communication, he's saying we need to use blogging tools and APIs,
#
bret
blogging tool requirement is a miscomunication
#
Loqi
too much karma!
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: you can talk to him on IRC and on the telcon, i would prefer if he would read emails but we can't force him
#
bret
we actually have 4 channels... github issues
#
aaronpk
OH MY GOD I CANT TYPE THIS FAST
#
bret
arguable the most important... since it actually references the spec directly
#
AdamB
might i suggest that if one particular "topic" can't be completed via mailing list that it gets put on the telecon agenda. it will slow the velocity of the team but might be a compromise?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: the WG is about producing standards. we have3 channels, irc email and wiki. all three are available as html
#
aaronpk
bblfish: can we have a list of all the people in the WG refuse to use email?
#
hhalpin
There are 3 communication channels: 1) IRC 2) wiki 3) mailing list
#
Arnaud
aaronpk, I think you can just type "bblfish and hhalpin argue with each other"
#
aaronpk
... and we can list all the times on IRC they are available
#
hhalpin
that should be enough.
#
AdamB
maybe do a issue like KevnMarks suggested and discussed on the phone
#
ben_thatmustbeme
IRC has !tell, that was stated over email
#
ben_thatmustbeme
it performs async and you can link to specific emails
#
Zakim
-bill-looby
#
Arnaud
I sympathize with Henry, it is hard to have one conversation that way
#
bret
is harry on irc?
#
Arnaud
but I don't expect this problem to go away
#
elf-pavlik
bret hhalpin
#
tantek
q+ to note that re: timezones and indieweb - we have plenty of people in Germany, Australia, and other timezones that are able to have very good productive conversations.
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin, AnnB, tantek on the speaker queue
#
bret
elf-pavlik: other harry
#
Zakim
-ben_thatmustbeme
#
bret
the one talking
#
aaronpk
that's bblfish
#
ben_thatmustbeme
my phone just dropped out
#
elf-pavlik
bret Henry? bblfish
#
AnnB
bblfish = Henry Story
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I have to go back to work, i'll be on in IRC only
#
bret
ah ok cool
#
KevinMarks
q+ can we ask Henry to use https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/ instead of email for back adn forth
#
Zakim
KevinMarks, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin, AnnB, tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin, AnnB, tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish++
#
hhalpin
However, we cannot force people to use particular messages.
#
KevinMarks
IRC is logged and has async
#
tantek
ack hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees AnnB, tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
tantek
hhalpin: we cannot force people to use specific channels
#
bblfish
I'd like to know who refuses to use some of the channels
#
tantek
ack AnnB
#
Zakim
sees tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
sorry, we're way over time now
#
hhalpin
s/use particular/specific channels or respond to particular messages
#
aaronpk
tantek: i'm going to put an 11:15 hard stop
#
hhalpin
We would prefer it if people tried to check multiple channels
#
aaronpk
AnnB: the one thing i don't get, i try to log in and follow it,
#
elf-pavlik
Loco? ;)
#
aaronpk
... henry, that's one thing these guys have brought to this, a way to put something into IRC and alerts someone to follow up
#
elf-pavlik
!tell bblfish 'sup
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
bret
!tell AnnB hi AnnB!
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk
... maybe someone can demonstrate this
#
KevinMarks
!tell bblfish how many unread eamial
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk
... i understand the indieweb people don't like to use email, so that "!tell somebody something" is valulable
#
aaronpk
but I am sympathetic to henry's concern, i don't understand how ... it's hard to have a longer conversation
#
aaronpk
... how do you accomplish that if not in email?
#
bret
we have long conversation on IRC
#
Zakim
sees tantek, KevinMarks on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack KevinMarks
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
oops, that should have been minuted
#
aaronpk
annb: but I am sympathetic to henry's concern, i don't understand how ... it's hard to have a longer conversation
#
Arnaud
from what I understand this is actually part of the plan: limit conversations to short messages
#
aaronpk
AnnB: part of it is education for some of us
#
bblfish
annb: how is one to have longer detailed conversations on email
#
Loqi
bblfish: elf-pavlik left you a message 1 minute ago: 'sup
#
Arnaud
based on the belief that email leads to unnecessary long messages
#
Loqi
bblfish: KevinMarks left you a message 1 minute ago: how many unread eamial
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
hhalpin
In my experience, most developers I know are using a mixture of IRC and git rather than email in open-source projects
#
bret
its easier to stay on the same page in IRC.. its really easy on email to totally lose someone after the first paragraph. in irc you can address issues imediately rather than 6 paragraphs in
#
aaronpk
tantek: the short answer is that email can lead to unproductive discussions
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bblfish (4%), tantek (31%), Ann (27%)
#
hhalpin
Along with regular scrum meetings.
#
aaronpk
AnnB: we are tryign to learn, but IRC doesn't cut it for anything longer than a couple sentences
#
Arnaud
clearly, this has its limits some of us aren't comfortable with
#
aaronpk
tantek: there are plenty of places to put longer content than IRC and then put URLs
#
KevinMarks
webmentions, Ann
#
melvster
Arnaud++
#
aaronpk
AnnB: i guess we're going to have to talk about this at the F2F, it's still quite a confusion
#
bret
you can write a blogpost into an email list, just paste the URL in
#
ben_thatmustbeme
email being very unproductive is one of the reasons things like Slack have seen such an update
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
AnnB: I don't quite get it yet
#
aaronpk
tantek: i think there's a lot of folks that would happily help
#
tantek
ack KevinMarks
#
Zakim
sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks: i think what henry wants is a formal backand forth that is acknowledged, so if that's what he wants, use the issue tracker
#
elf-pavlik
trackbot++
#
Zakim
sees tantek, hhalpin on the speaker queue
Tsyesika joined the channel
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aaronpk
tantek: we're out of time
#
tantek
ack tantek
#
Zakim
tantek, you wanted to note that re: timezones and indieweb - we have plenty of people in Germany, Australia, and other timezones that are able to have very good productive
#
Zakim
... conversations.
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
KevinMarks
AnnB: ask in here
#
tantek
ack hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnB
how does Issue Tracker work for discussion?
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Loqi
AnnB: bret left you a message 3 minutes ago: hi AnnB!
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aaronpk
hhalpin: we do want to see check all channels, we understand that 3 channels IRC wiki and mailing list, we understand that may be a lot for people
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AnnB
I post a question as an issue? and then someone responds?
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aaronpk
... nonetheless, we should all try to communicate with each other, there's nothing we can do to force peopel to communicate with each other
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aaronpk
... weshould assume we're all operating in good faith
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AnnB
that doesn't seem like a discussion
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elf-pavlik
AnnB, please don't use ISSUEs in tracker like that!
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aaronpk
... in terms of mailing list vs non mailing list, it's a factual note that almost all open source projects have been moving away from mailing list onto IRC and tickets
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elf-pavlik
we need to have formal process to open and close them
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AnnB
I thought that's what Kevin proposed
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AnnB
just trying to unders5tand
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bblfish
Most of these tools end up sending e-mails out, so for the moment one ends up with e-mail overflow
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aaronpk
... it's not surprising that over time we're seeing shifts to other mediums,
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aaronpk
... as long as it's documented we're fine with that
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Arnaud
gotta end this call
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elf-pavlik
AnnB, let's discuss it next week during face 2 face?
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KevinMarks
actually it looks like the github issues were what I was lookignat
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aaronpk
tantek: thanks for the summary. i'd encourage anyone else who wants to continue this discussion to hang out in IRC
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Zakim
-Arnaud
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Zakim
-bret
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Zakim
-bblfish
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Zakim
-AdamB
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Zakim
-harry
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Zakim
-aaronpk
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Zakim
-elf-pavlik
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Zakim
-Sandro.a
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melvster
hhalpin: why not make it mandatory for chairs to read the mailing list in a WG ... for example, it's mandatory to send regrets via the mailing list when you cant meet ... surely the chair shoudl be reading that?
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Zakim
-tantek
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Zakim
-rhiaro
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hhalpin
Again, we understand that three communications channels may be too much.
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aaronpk
has to run to a meeting
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melvster
cc tantek ^
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Tsyesika
oh is it over?
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Tsyesika
already?
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Zakim
-KevinMarks
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aaronpk
can someone else close out the minutes and publish the logs?
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aaronpk
Tsyesika timezones are hard ;)
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tantek
melvster because it was a condition of becoming a co-chair that we could ignore the mailing list
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hhalpin
But that we can all try to read the various channels and keep abreast, understanding we have diffierent priorities and styles.
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AnnB
I do want to continue the conversation on this. Sorry to be slow, but I do not think we have a good way for a *discussion*
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tantek
based on previous *years* of experience that "social web" mailing lists are mostly irrelevant and unproductive
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melvster
tantek: politics politics :)
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hhalpin
W3C process cannot force anyone to read messages.
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AnnB
but it might be that I just do not understand
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aaronpk
trackbot: end meeting
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