#social 2015-04-21

2015-04-21 UTC
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aaronpk
!tell evanpro oh no I found a broken link on your site! https://e14n.com/2010/07/21/federated-social-web-summit-wrapup
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
tilgovi, Arnaud, cwebber2`, danbri and danbri1 joined the channel
pfefferle, danbri, melvster1, Arnaud1, tilgovi and elf-pavlik joined the channel
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cwebber2
I'm gonna flat out admit that I'm having trouble following the as:link debate
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: could you clarify if my understanding of the debate is right?
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: is this about activitystreams 1.0 backwards compatibility vs "json-ld can handle this whole structure already"?
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cwebber2
or is it something else
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cwebber2
it would be good to know. I know I'm not the only one who is confused.
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rhiaro
cwebber2++
eprodrom joined the channel
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 26 karma
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2 hi :)
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cwebber2
hey elf-pavlik
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: yes, and I feel like it should make it obvious to me, but every time I look at it my brain grinds to a halt :)
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cwebber2
I feel like there's history here for what as:Link is used for traditionally that I'm missing.
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elf-pavlik
do know Entity Attribute Value (EAV) model? IMO same as Subject Predicate Object
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cwebber2
maybe I should look it up and it's my own fault :)
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cwebber2
I don't know that term, I'm familiar with subject predicate object obviously :)
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elf-pavlik
forgetting the *as:rel* part which we might have resolved in pull#100
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elf-pavlik
one of the main issue I see with as:Link and which this diagram explains - we make statements on some made up subject
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elf-pavlik
s/on some/with some/
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cwebber2
sure, so your complaint is that its' extra indirection?
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cwebber2
whereas we could be referring directly?
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elf-pavlik
instead make them directly on an as:Object we want to describe
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elf-pavlik
action-57
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trackbot
is looking up action-57.
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trackbot
action-57 -- Pavlik elf to extract all AS2.0 examples in specs into separate files + expose them to JSON-LD Playground -- due 2015-04-14 -- CLOSED
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elf-pavlik
i see need to use JSON-LD Playground to explain other issues
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cwebber2
I guess I should know more about how IETF-style link relations work
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elf-pavlik
for example we use as value (rdf:object) instance of as:Link which has *href* attribute
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cwebber2
since eprodrom is saying that's why we need to keep as:Link around
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cwebber2
so is that basically the debate? Supporting IETF style link relations, vs reducing complexity in the RDF / linked data style representation?
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elf-pavlik
so we end up with blank node (in many ways problematic) where we could have prefectly fine @id, worst of all without any clear reason, best reasoning i've heard so far relates to labels one would want to put on those links
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2 with pull#100 we move away from *as:rel*
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik: so, this is an element that I've got in production, using thousands of times per day
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elf-pavlik
and for more background on current state of IETF link relations in RDF i recommend issue started by dret https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39
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eprodrom
I'm not sure why you want to take it away
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elf-pavlik
eprodrom, did you register your link relations or you use full URIs ?
jasnell joined the channel
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eprodrom
Sorry, what's that got to do with it?
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elf-pavlik
also can you please provide link to real world use of it? i very likely can suggest how to do it in standard JSON-LD
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik: that's great
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cwebber2
okay, so just to be clear
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elf-pavlik
if you use unregistered relations in short form (not full URI), AFAIK you already don't conform with existing specs and IMO you should fix it
AnnB joined the channel
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cwebber2
eprodrom: you're saying we already have all these IETF style link relations in existing activitystreams 1.0 style documents, and it would suck to break that (and are you also arguing there's an advantage there?)
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eprodrom
Yes
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cwebber2
and elf-pavlik, you're arguing this complicates the relationships, adds blank nodes to the actual graph of things once parsed from the json-ld, is that right?
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cwebber2
I'm trying to get a summary of the issue for us mere peons
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2 i think we already don't have full backwards compatibility with AS1 ?
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eprodrom
Not expecting it
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eprodrom
The advantage is that we're using the same relations in AS2 that we'd use in HTML5, HTTP, Webfinger
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik: https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/blob/master/API.md lists at least "self"
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eprodrom
I'll dig up the rest of them in the pump.io code
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elf-pavlik
eprodrom++ thanks!
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eprodrom
OK
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Loqi
eprodrom has 12 karma
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eprodrom
Question, before I waste a lot of time on it
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eprodrom
At what point do you drop this?
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eprodrom
How many examples do I need to provide?
jasnell_ joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
at least few that we can agree in this group that make actual sense with our current direction in mind
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elf-pavlik
{ "@id": "http://coding.example/api/activity/bwkflwken", "links": [ {"rel": "self", "href": "http://coding.example/api/activity/bwkflwken"}] }
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eprodrom
OK, sounds fair
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eprodrom
What I like about link relations is that they're open-ended
harry joined the channel
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harry
waves
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elf-pavlik
i don't think that linking to itself will justify introducing as:Link but i must understand this construct better
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cwebber2
well I think I have a vague understanding of the debate now
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cwebber2
enough to know I can survive no matter which way the conclusion goes :)
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cwebber2
so I'm gonna let you all nerd out on this one
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harry
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 21 April 2015
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elf-pavlik
just to clarify, James already prepared PR to drop *as:rel* https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/100
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elf-pavlik
back on actual call
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harry
excellent - sorry, there was some confusion and somehow the booking for the Social IG meeting didn't work, thought it might be a confusion in Zakim between WG and IG
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elf-pavlik
eprodrom, what do you mean by open-ended?
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harry
chairs, if you guys don't mind staying on after the call quickly, we have some new IE applications
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Zakim
T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started
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harry
I'll forward them out now, just recovering from most vicious flu ever
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harry
Zakim, code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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Zakim
+ +1.514.554.aaaa
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eprodrom
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 21 April 2015
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eprodrom
Zakim, aaaa is me
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Zakim
sorry, eprodrom, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
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eprodrom
Zakim, aaaa is eprodrom
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Zakim
sorry, eprodrom, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
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aaronpk
Zakim?
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aaronpk
Zakim, who is on the call?
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Zakim
I notice T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has restarted
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Zakim
On the phone I see +1.514.554.aaaa, Sandro, Marilyn, aaronpk, ??P8
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Zakim
+ +1.773.614.aabb
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eprodrom
Zakim, aaaa is me
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Zakim
+eprodrom; got it
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Zakim
+??P2
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Zakim
+jasnell
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute ??P2
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Zakim
??P2 should now be muted
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cwebber2
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
sorry, cwebber2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
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harry
Zakim, who's making noise?
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, ??P2 is me
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Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
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Zakim
harry, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.773.614.aabb (9%), Marilyn (40%), ??P8 (9%), jasnell (4%)
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harry
someone has a bit of background noise :)
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cwebber2
Zakim, aabb is me
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Zakim
+cwebber2; got it
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harry
Zakim, Marilyn is harry
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Zakim
+harry; got it
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P8 (74%)
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Zakim
-??P8
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harry
who is p8?
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elf-pavlik
just dropped
jasnell joined the channel
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rhiaro
One of the Ps would have been me, but it isn't showing when I join
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eprodrom
Zakim, who is on the call?
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Zakim
On the phone I see eprodrom, Sandro, harry, aaronpk, cwebber2, elf-pavlik (muted), jasnell
tantek joined the channel
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rhiaro
dialing again
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Zakim
+??P10
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Zakim
+??P8
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Tsyesika
Zakim, ??P10 is me
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Zakim
+Tsyesika; got it
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elf-pavlik
i don't have proper mic today once again so i will just listen and follow IRC :)
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Tsyesika
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
Tsyesika should now be muted
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rhiaro
Zakim, who is on the call
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Zakim
I don't understand 'who is on the call', rhiaro
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rhiaro
Zakim, who is on the call?
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Zakim
On the phone I see eprodrom, Sandro, harry, aaronpk, cwebber2, elf-pavlik (muted), jasnell, Tsyesika (muted), ??P8
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Zakim
hears ??P8's hand up
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Zakim
sees ??P8 on the speaker queue
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Zakim
+??P11
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Zakim
-??P8
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tantek
zakim, ??p11 is me
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Zakim
+tantek; got it
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cwebber2
morning
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Tsyesika
afternoon
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cwebber2
good day ;)
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro problems with SIP ?
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tantek
zakim, mute m
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Zakim
sorry, tantek, I do not know which phone connection belongs to m
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tantek
zakim, mute me
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Zakim
tantek should now be muted
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Zakim
+??P8
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute ??P8
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Zakim
??P8 should now be muted
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cwebber2
I can scribe
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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wilkie
Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim
+wilkie; got it
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2++
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 27 karma
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eprodrom
scribenick cwebber2
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elf-pavlik
scribenick: cwebber2
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rhiaro
Zakim, who is on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: eprodrom, Sandro, harry, aaronpk, cwebber2, elf-pavlik (muted), jasnell, Tsyesika (muted), tantek (muted), ??P8 (muted), wilkie, Ann
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Zakim
+ +33.6.43.93.aacc
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cwebber2
eprodrom: let's get started. According to the agenda we have to review last week's minutes
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cwebber2
... I think we had an issue around our march 10 minutes
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cwebber2
... but those are complete now
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rhiaro
sound isn't good today, on and off
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eprodrom
+1
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cwebber2
... can we approve the march 10 minutes?
bblfish joined the channel
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cwebber2
... good, looks good
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elf-pavlik
+1 they had no resolutions
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eprodrom
RESOLVED: approved 10 Mar minutes
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cwebber2
... let's do the same for the april 14 minutes
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eprodrom
PROPOSED: approve 14 april minutes
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eprodrom
+1
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eprodrom
RESOLVED: approved 14 Apr minutes
almereyda joined the channel
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cwebber2
... okay good
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elf-pavlik
-0 not sure if i had time to understand all resulutions
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cwebber2
... nice and quick
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tantek
just the f2f missing
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cwebber2
... I think this means we are caught up on minutes, nice
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Zakim
+ +1.509.375.aadd
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harry
we are just approving minutes
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cwebber2
... oh, elf-pavlik is looking to understand resolutions
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cwebber2
... this is just approval of minutes
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tantek
harry, any update on the f2f minutes?
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elf-pavlik
+0 if -0 stops sotmething
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cwebber2
... so the resolution is, approve the minutes
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harry
tantek - nope, I just got back from flu-land, need to give it another shot.
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cwebber2
... just trying to make sure elf-pavlik that you're okay. We don't need to stop unless you need more time to review the minutes.
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elf-pavlik
don't have mic
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tantek
get well soon harry!
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cwebber2
AnnB: are there issues in the minutes, elf-pavlik ?
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cwebber2
eprodrom: oh there were resolutions from 4-14, okay...
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cwebber2
... the question is, elf-pavlik ?
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elf-pavlik
we have just one week to object
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cwebber2
... I guess he's at a +0
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cwebber2
... so if no problem, we'll proceed
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elf-pavlik
yeah, not a big problem!
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cwebber2
AnnB: we are still missing minutes from the f2f
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cwebber2
eprodrom: yes that's right, I think we had a server issue
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bblfish
I suppose I have an issue on Issue-19, I put that up on for todays agenda.
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cwebber2
harry: I had the flu but I'll get that now that I'm back to work
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cwebber2
... I have an open action
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AnnB
glad you're feeling better, Harry
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cwebber2
eprodrom: great
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AnnB
can you also plz confirm the Zakim reservation, etc for socialIG?
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cwebber2
... next telecon is next tuesday at the same time (april 28), I believe I will chair it
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cwebber2
... which puts us back on our regular chair schedule
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cwebber2
... unless there are objections or reasons to change, let's plan on this meeting next week
ericstephan joined the channel
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cwebber2
... the other issue to discuss quickly is the upcoming face to face
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cwebber2
... want to address it, though not in the agenda, because this is usually when we address upcoming f2fs
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elf-pavlik
let's start adding things to agenda page!
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cwebber2
... do we have issues for the upcoming f2f?
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Zakim
sees ??P8, harry on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
AnnB: the question is, what will the agenda be?
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cwebber2
... seems like those who were particularly active on the technical issues won't be there
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cwebber2
... what can we do to make it productive
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cwebber2
eprodrom: excellent question
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cwebber2
... let's look at the wiki page
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cwebber2
... we do have a wiki page for the event
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cwebber2
... we have demos on the social api candidates
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cwebber2
... that will be the main issue
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cwebber2
harry: I think we can't get a resolution on the api because we're missing quite a few folks
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tantek
zakim, unmute me
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Zakim
tantek should no longer be muted
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cwebber2
... but wedo have quite a few people, including people who don't always make it to meetings, but I think we can get european input
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tantek
q+ re: demos should focus on approved user stories
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Zakim
sees ??P8, harry, tantek on the speaker queue
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harry
We still need to get written candidates for the APIs
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I would really like to see us with written candidates at this time
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees ??P8, harry, tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
... we do have the activitypump candidate, which has been updated
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eprodrom
ack ??P8
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Zakim
unmutes ??P8
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Zakim
sees harry, tantek on the speaker queue
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harry
ActivityPump is now ready, micropub has been written, not sure re the rest of the approaches
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harry
ack harry
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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harry
Zakim, ??P8 is rhiaro
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Zakim
+rhiaro; got it
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute rhiaro
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Zakim
rhiaro should now be muted
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Zakim
sees tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
sorry, sound just went, and I'm not seeing any zakim responses
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eprodrom
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to discuss demos should focus on approved user stories
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: while you work on that I will ack tantek
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cwebber2
tantek: in reviewing demos from the last face to face
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harry
sandro - if you have an update on the Solid approach by the Paris f2f that would be grand
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cwebber2
... had a pretty good mix of candidate demos there
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rhiaro
I wasn't on the queue, I was button mashing to figure out who I was
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
... any demos should list up front which user stories they are demo'ing
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cwebber2
... that will show what we're accomplishing
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elf-pavlik
tantek, could you please add this comment to f2f wiki page?
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cwebber2
... if that doesn't show the user stories, that will be misleading
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cwebber2
... all our user stories involve some interaction
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AnnB
waves at ericstephan
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cwebber2
... so if all you're doing is something like a todo list
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cwebber2
... that's nothing to do with our user stories
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ericstephan
:-) Hi AnnB
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AnnB
glad you're here; sorry ..only now saw your email
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cwebber2
... if you're going to do a demo, please list that and what you're demoing
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Zakim
sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
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sandro
harry, andrei's been busy writing... https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD
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cwebber2
... if you can't do that, don't demo
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elf-pavlik
sandro++
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harry
+1 great
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Loqi
sandro has 9 karma
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cwebber2
... because you aren't contributing towards doing a social api
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack sandro
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
sandro: I just wanted to address the agenda of the meeting
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cwebber2
... I want to address the personal agenad
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cwebber2
... try to get a meeting of the minds on the issues that look to be showstoppers
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ericstephan
@AnnB no prob, it was just to obvious, that's what tripped me up
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cwebber2
... several things we've brought up
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cwebber2
... things like "we have to solve this to move forward"
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AnnB
smiles at the obvious
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cwebber2
... format we're posting, how we're doing extensibility, etc
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk will come
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cwebber2
... maybe if we can get indiewebcamp and ldp people to look at differences
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elf-pavlik
Tsyesika will also participate
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cwebber2
eprodrom: I'll be participating by phone
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Tsyesika
i'll be at the europe f2f
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cwebber2
... tsyesika will be there too
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harry
great, we'll have all primary candidates!
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Zakim
sees cwebber, bblfish on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
sandro: I'm not looking for a decision given lack of people there
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AnnB
q+
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Zakim
sees cwebber, bblfish, AnnB on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
... not sure we have enough stakeholders
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elf-pavlik
AFAIK rhiaro also has good grip on IndieWeb stack
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cwebber2
... at least look at what we need to do to show one is better than the other
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eprodrom
ack cwebber2
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Zakim
sees cwebber, bblfish, AnnB on the speaker queue
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AnnB
q-
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Zakim
sees cwebber, bblfish on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
cwebber2: as for showing demos, Tsyesika will be at the event
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AnnB
I just wanted to say we should schedule the agenda / demos, with sensitivity to time zone .. so people not attending F2F have best chance to attend remotely
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eprodrom
cwebber2: priorities have been emphasised on working on the spec rather than on implementations
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eprodrom
cwebber2: demos can be done from home, discussion of specs are helpful for f2f
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
eprodrom: yes i would favor this as well, because activitypump is relatively new, a melding of several efforts
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eprodrom
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
... I would like to see that discussion process there
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cwebber2
bblfish: sorry for having been offline for a while, was snowed under
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cwebber2
... yes from my perspective it will be interesting if going on what cwebber2 was saying is to see if what other people doing LDP are doing and how we understand the problem space
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cwebber2
... for the larger group, to see what the possibilities there are, it might be a technology everyone there is familiar with
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elf-pavlik
melvster also wants to demo some LDP / SoLiD
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cwebber2
... to see what the detail for what others might be, there may be things we haven't tried yet
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cwebber2
... good to play around with ideas from other communities and see how to do that in an LDP land
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cwebber2
... see if it would work
Arnaud joined the channel
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melvster
elf-pavlik: yes, booked my flights and hotel
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elf-pavlik
melvster++
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Loqi
melvster has 14 karma
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cwebber2
... last time we did demos, thus this time we should paint a broader picture around a certain activity
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melvster
did yet get a response about applying to join the group, hope someone could look at it :)
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cwebber2
eprodrom: great, sounds like we have quite a bit of expectations for the upcoming event
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cwebber2
... tthat makes a lot of sense
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
... so we have a lot to go on there
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elf-pavlik
harry you will make it to Paris?
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cwebber2
... I'd like to go on to actions and issues
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eprodrom
ack sandro
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
sandro: yes this is a quick thing, I wonder if we can set a deadline like a week before the meeting for people to try to have a reviewed draft of their proposals and really if everyone who cares at all can review those drafts for the meeting for discussion points and etc
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cwebber2
... can we accept a deadline like that, and can we also commit to reading the draft in say, a week
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elf-pavlik
+1 reading submitted drafts!
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bblfish
I am happy to help with SoLiD
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cwebber2
... and I'm willing to commit to that on having a solid / reading a draft a week bfore
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elf-pavlik
i'll add it to next week agenda!
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cwebber2
eprodrom: so a week before the meeting would more or less be next monday (or tues)
#
cwebber2
... so we already have an activitypump submission
#
Tsyesika
i am still working but i can do that
#
cwebber2
sandro: I hear Tsyesika is already working on the activitypump submission, can she get to that point
#
Tsyesika
it's pretty close right now
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I think it's good enough for discussion yes
#
Tsyesika
i think
dret joined the channel
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cwebber2
tantek: it would be similar for a deadline for demos
#
cwebber2
... there may be a difference in expectations
#
cwebber2
... if you want to demo, make a listing of what you'll demo a week before the meeting
#
cwebber2
... anyone can do technology demos, not interesting
#
cwebber2
... user story demos, interesting
#
cwebber2
for the record I don't agree on user demos or tech demos
#
Zakim
+ +1.408.335.aaee
#
Zakim
- +1.408.335.aaee
#
melvster
FYI: I have proof of concept of : instant message / decentralized wallet / payment processor / task manager / integrations ... trying to get as much as possible ready for Paris
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: can we set a deadline on specs and demo deadlines
#
tantek
melvster - which user stories?
#
elf-pavlik
+1 specs -1 demos
#
cwebber2
sandro: I don't agree with deadline on demos don't think that's mportant
#
Zakim
+ +1.408.335.aaff
#
cwebber2
tantek: I think that's important, if you can't link to a user story on demos, do you even understand what you're doing in this group
#
cwebber2
sandro: I think you only demo something if it answers a question about one of the proposals
#
cwebber2
... eg if I don't have an understanding on how to join a list
#
cwebber2
... show that off
#
cwebber2
tantek: yoes, that'scoped to user storiess
#
cwebber2
sandro: but that will come up on review
#
AnnB
I appreciate Tantek's effort to be focused and organized... But ".. do you even understand what you're doing in this group.. " sounds harsh to me
#
cwebber2
tantek: that's the point of voting on them, to focus the group
#
melvster
tantek: i think probably a few, I could probably code up quite a few user stories on the day, if requested
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: let's step back, can we get consensus on specs ready for next tuesday
#
Loqi
AnnB has 18 karma
#
melvster
tantek: SolID really answers all the user stories
#
eprodrom
PROPOSED: have specs for Social API candidates ready for review by 28 Apr 2015 meeting
#
eprodrom
+1
#
Tsyesika
+1 i can
#
tantek
melvster - then it should be easy to focus on and demo user stories instead of other things
#
aaronpk
+1 boy do i have my work cut out for me ;)
#
ericstephan
0 I'm new no fair voting for me :-)
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: in tthis case a spec is something thatt explains the api
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
melvster
tantek: im happy to demo anything anyone wants me to, or build something on the spot, or nothing at all, happy just to hang out :)
#
bblfish
+1 I'd be happy to help Sandro and teams on the SoLiD
#
cwebber2
... and demos are implementations of that api with a demo of it
#
cwebber2
... seems like we have a strong consensus to have drafts on spec
#
cwebber2
... don't have to be finalized
#
cwebber2
... so we hope to have candidates ready
#
cwebber2
tantek: another reality, neither you nor I will be there, who will chair?
#
cwebber2
... arnaud will chairing
#
eprodrom
RESOLVED: have specs for Social API candidates ready for review by 28 Apr 2015 meeting
#
cwebber2
... it's up to him to focus the drive of it
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: that's true
#
harry
It looks like W3C might fund me last minute to go to meeting, so I'll make sure this all gets transmitted to Arnaud.
#
sandro
bblfish - I'm dropping off IRC now
#
bblfish
see you on gitter
#
cwebber2
... I think what we're proposing is that if people have proposals, out of courtesy for the group, giving people a chance to review and comment by a week is polite
#
AnnB
bye sandro
#
cwebber2
tantek: agree
#
eprodrom
PROPOSED: have demos for Social API candidates ready for review by 28 Apr 2015 meeting
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: as second proposal, to have demos for social api candidates ready for review
#
eprodrom
+0
#
cwebber2
... by next week
#
Zakim
sees a on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees a, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
tantek
explicitly listing what user stories are to be demod
#
cwebber2
AnnB: so what does that mean, voting for demos or you don't have one
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: personally I think this means showing things
#
cwebber2
... specs
#
aaronpk
+1 with explicit listing of which user stories are being demos
#
cwebber2
... rather than demos
#
Tsyesika
+0 i won't be able to build a demo for activitypump
#
sandro
it's not okay to outlaw last-minute demos.
#
cwebber2
I have a counter-proposal
#
sandro
if they are germaine
#
Tsyesika
by the meeting
#
cwebber2
on the queue
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
sandro
-1 as phrased... Let the chairs figure out what's germaine
#
cwebber2
tantek: you can't really evaluate a social api candidate to see what these can do
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: that feeling is that this evaluation won't happen entirely at this face to face
#
cwebber2
... I absolutely think we have to have demos, but I kinda feel like we need to get started with the specs
#
bblfish
agree, this is a place to help draw the big picture of what is possible
#
cwebber2
tantek: yes I guess we have a different approach, I'd like to see that we have things working
#
cwebber2
... especially in this space
#
cwebber2
... we've had this convo before
#
Loqi
@zahedab :: #ECMAScript @BrendanEich We Implement as we standardize so we don't have specs that don't implement #FluentConf
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I agree
#
cwebber2
hey, I have an adjusted proposal
#
melvster
imho SoLiD is a universal API, which should be compatible with any API this group creates, and I think could handle 90%+ of use cases
#
tantek
Frankly I'm not really interested in spec / candidate API discussions that are disconnected from user stories
#
tantek
melvster - so was WSDL - I don't believe in "universal APIs"
#
elf-pavlik
cwebber2: when we go through specifications people can ask for clarifications on how they work with collected user stories
#
aaronpk
universal APIs aren't useful, because they can do anything, they don't really do anything specifically
#
tantek
and asking people for real world demos is a good way of filtering out such claims
#
tantek
universalAPIs--
#
Loqi
universalAPIs has -1 karma
#
aaronpk
at some point you have to make a decision and write things down into an actual spec
#
aaronpk
see: OAuth 2.0 spec that was eventually renamed to a "framework" because there isn't enough there
#
melvster
tantek: fair enough! My goal is to show you running code on top of SoLiD, and for you to say, 'I like that, I want to use it'
#
elf-pavlik
folks can you please take it easy with those rants?
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry
strange
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: we lost you at the end
#
tantek
melvster - we've had this discussion before - the user stories that are approved are on the wiki
#
cwebber2
I'm done
#
cwebber2
did you lose me entirely?
#
tantek
and can you demo them with a real world site, e.g. your own personal site, and produce permalinks for all the outputs?
#
tantek
otherwise it's all handwaving
#
cwebber2
did you miss my suggestion?
#
melvster
yes to all
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
okay, adjusted proposal, in text:
#
Loqi
AnnB has 19 karma
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
Loqi
AnnB has 20 karma
#
cwebber2
why not show the spec, tie it to the user stories, and do demonstrations if useful of what people are asking
#
bblfish
AnnB++
#
Loqi
AnnB has 21 karma
#
cwebber2
AnnB: how about people show what they want to do whether demo or spec to the agenda
#
cwebber2
tantek: last time that made it bloated, how about we leave it to the chairs
#
cwebber2
... a ton of things on the agenda
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
bblfish
I think that's a good thing, we propose what we present, and the chairs decide
#
cwebber2
harry: I'm fine with letting arnaud handle the agenda for the f2f
#
cwebber2
... the face to face is useful to the high level demos
#
cwebber2
... of the specs
#
KevinMarks
demos are very clarifying
#
cwebber2
... we'll use it to solidify the activitypump, micropub things...
#
cwebber2
... but decisions will happen *afterwards*
#
KevinMarks
running code, then rough consensus
#
cwebber2
... at a teleconf everyone can do
#
cwebber2
sandro: I agree in a sense there
#
cwebber2
... I don't think the actual decision to pick one as-is
#
cwebber2
... the agenda is to get everyone to understand the three candidates
#
elf-pavlik
sandro+++
#
bblfish
sandro++
#
cwebber2
... so we can make the three candidates make sense
#
Loqi
sandro has 10 karma
#
Loqi
sandro has 11 karma
#
cwebber2
sandro++
#
Loqi
sandro has 12 karma
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: is it fair to say that our previous face to face was a lot of demos
#
bblfish
++ for sandro on having the agenda be that we get to know very well the APIs of each of the proposals
#
cwebber2
... and anything that we actually come out with will be an actual evolution of one of those apis
#
cwebber2
... are we at the point where we're convinced that most are implementable?
#
cwebber2
... so we can hammer out the next version
#
Zakim
sees harry, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
tantek: I think the latter, there's a big difference of opinion for people who are actually doing things running on their sites right now vs someday
#
cwebber2
... I want you to understand my api proposal vs
#
cwebber2
... we've built stuff that does this
#
cwebber2
... disconnect in methodology
#
KevinMarks
it's legislation vs documentation as usual
#
harry
I feel we are circling a bit
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I'm a bit concerned about how I'd spend my time as an implementer, I don't like having to track evolving specs
#
harry
Basically, it should be obvious - we need a single FPWD relatively soon-ish.
#
cwebber2
... esp when we're talking about 20, 40 user stories
#
cwebber2
... rewriting that code seems like asking a lot
#
cwebber2
tantek: I think it's a big challenge to get anything that works
#
cwebber2
... nobody actually demo'ed a bitg user story
#
cwebber2
... some demoed more than others
#
cwebber2
... and some were just tech demos
#
elf-pavlik
a lot of input from eprodrom and tantek who chair but will not actually participate in that F2F ...
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
jasnell_ joined the channel
#
cwebber2
... I don't see how we believe that anyone has built something that can implement all those user stories
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
... there's no evidence
#
cwebber2
... that's what people say every 5 years
#
cwebber2
... you can do anything with my xml, whatever
#
AnnB
thinks this is still useful discussion, elf-pavlik .. just like you had useful inputs to the last F2F, even though you weren't there
#
cwebber2
... and you can't.
#
KevinMarks
a universal API - HTML?
#
cwebber2
... people are saying "you can do this" vs "show me what's owrking"
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
bblfish: I think that the previous chair was saying correctly we have limited time, of course you can say from architecture diagram whether soemthing works or not
jasnell__ joined the channel
#
cwebber2
tantek: diagrams don't make products
#
harry
I think tantek is likely right there in the general sense.
#
cwebber2
bblfish: we have major linked data clouds
#
cwebber2
... deployed by big companies, actual evidence
#
cwebber2
... eg linked data protocol
#
cwebber2
tantek: you yourself aren't using one
#
wilkie
let's just use OStatus. people use that right now lol
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: bblfish, tantek, I'm sorry
#
AnnB
eprodrom++
#
cwebber2
bblfish: I'm waiting on what the specs are before I can implement
#
Loqi
eprodrom has 13 karma
#
cwebber2
I'm not scribing a squabble
#
harry
let's not argue here folks
#
tantek
I don't believe architecture diagrams nor claims of wide enterprise deployment
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: we have questions on whether we are doing specs, demos, or both, because we have no consesnsu
#
cwebber2
put on the agenda for next week
#
harry
We should do demos and spec reviews with whoever is actually there
#
harry
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
... we do have items on our agenda for today
#
tantek
if you have a solution that you think works, run it on your own site. if you can't do that, why should we believe you
#
harry
+1 moving on agenda
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom++
#
Loqi
eprodrom has 14 karma
#
cwebber2
(well we did agree to specs by monday/tues at least)
#
eprodrom
q?
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry
sorry, no updates from my end, flu had me near death last week
#
cwebber2
... do we have any updates on open actions or issues
#
eprodrom
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
on mute?
#
cwebber2
bblfish: we all agree we can do it pragmatically
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: do you have an open issue/action?
#
cwebber2
... issue 19?
#
cwebber2
bblfish: yes, thanks, I put up 19 seems to say that the conslusion was that people should send email
#
cwebber2
email, irc, wiki should work
#
AnnB
q+
#
Zakim
sees AnnB on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
... how do we deal with if emails aren't read?
#
KevinMarks
sounds liek a webmention use case to me
#
cwebber2
... it has not been clear to me how the wiki replaces email
#
melvster
harry: could you please review my request to join the group (from about 10 days ago) when you are feeling a bit better :)
#
KevinMarks
wiki edits -> irc notifications
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I think I can address this, that if there are items posted to the email address not addressed, or irc or wiki, we make sure it gets to the right people
#
harry
Melvster I notified the chairs that we have some new IE applications. We'll get to it by next meeting.
#
cwebber2
... so if someone were to post to the public ML to someone who has not seen it
#
Loqi
too much karma!
#
cwebber2
... makesure they see it
#
cwebber2
bblfish: okay it's not that the wiki is a callback
#
cwebber2
... the chairs are a fallback
#
cwebber2
heh, callback, sorry
#
cwebber2
... eg in user stories needed help on way things were going
#
harry
I believe those user-story discussions are supposed to be part of the IG, not the WG bblfish
#
cwebber2
... then we have to go through chairs
#
harry
Also, note there is no responsibility of people to agree with each other, although we do aim at consensus.
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish we continue with User Stories on github! https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues
jasnell joined the channel
#
cwebber2
harry: we've discussed it, it's fine if people are not reading email
#
jasnell
we've spent nearly this entire call discussing process and agenda stuff
#
cwebber2
bblfish: it's in the doc that chairs must participate
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish please let's move on with that, you can discuss User Stories via https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues
#
cwebber2
harry: if you want to complain, compalin to wendy seltzer
#
cwebber2
let's not spend time on this please
#
cwebber2
we are running out of time
#
elf-pavlik
PROPOSAL: finish issue-19 for today
#
bblfish
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees AnnB on the speaker queue
#
harry
We cannot force people to read your emails or respond to you bblfish
#
rhiaro
AnnB++
#
harry
I suggest you bring up your user-story to the IG so we can keep this WG meetings productive
#
Loqi
AnnB has 22 karma
#
cwebber2
AnnB: I want to support bblfish thought though has been discused a lot
#
cwebber2
... in the IG we've discussed that people put their wiki username how they like to be communicated with
#
cwebber2
... so fi you look at the agenda you see how we have preferred contact info
#
cwebber2
... I had a question because I"m brand new to github, so I'm having fun with it, put stuff there and didn't get responses
jasnell joined the channel
#
cwebber2
... it's not the same as how you communicate with the whole group, if we see that someone is not part of the thread
#
cwebber2
... then chairs take action to ping them
#
bblfish
ok, thanks
#
cwebber2
... and gratitude to the chairs for being willing to do that!
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: yes we don't want media to get in the way, we're all committed to making it work
#
cwebber2
... we do have open issues on activitystreams
#
cwebber2
... have about 5 minutes left to discuss
#
cwebber2
... eg issue #31
#
AnnB
so -- will y'all go put your contact preferences in your wiki User Name, please?
#
rhiaro
issue-31
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-31.
#
trackbot
issue-31 -- Refactor "target", "origin" and audience targeting properties -- open
#
cwebber2
... jasnell, if on call, can clarify?
#
cwebber2
jasnell: this is a 2 part question
#
cwebber2
... we can split it up if makes it easier
#
elf-pavlik
TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0
#
cwebber2
... audience targeting make use of to: : bcc:
#
elf-pavlik
sorry for wrong link
#
cwebber2
... this uses target and etc allowing who gets notified
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees AnnB, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
... current system is currently complicated with primary vs secondary audience
#
cwebber2
... simplify to cc: and bcc:
#
AnnB
q-
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
remove to and bto
#
cwebber2
... first change I'd like to make
#
cwebber2
... discussion on that
#
cwebber2
... second one has to do with target property
#
cwebber2
... which we can have a second convo about
#
cwebber2
... first about audience targeting
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: as someone who has info on it from a pump.io standpoint
danbri1 joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
cwebber2
... we use the to and cc pretty consistently
#
cwebber2
... to: is used if directly sending an activity to a particular person, direct messaging
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: eprodrom (62%), harry (9%), Ann (34%)
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute Ann
#
Zakim
Ann should now be muted
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute harry
#
Zakim
harry should now be muted
#
cwebber2
... Cc: is if broadcasting, and should go into the inboxes of them, but not the "it's directly for you and you must see it"
#
cwebber2
... this comes down to in practice that stuff that is Cc'ed goes to your feed, stuff to you goes to a direct messaging box
#
cwebber2
... what we'd have here is the cc would have to carry the weight for both
#
cwebber2
... we may lose the semantic of "it's directly for you"
#
cwebber2
jasnell: ok
#
cwebber2
... I'm fine with leaving it, my goal is to simplify the vocab as much as possible
#
cwebber2
... that's really where I'm trying to push it
#
cwebber2
... so the q is there a way to get the same thing
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: can we leave audience targeting for when we get to federation? (IRC only)
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
... with just cc
#
cwebber2
... a mention object/
#
cwebber2
... is there a way to use just cc but differentiate it
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: so if we use mention, that might do it
#
cwebber2
jasnell: jsut give it some thought, don't need a decision straight away
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: ok great.
#
cwebber2
... we are at the top of the hour, best to call it
#
Zakim
-jasnell
#
Zakim
-tantek
#
cwebber2
... thanks to all for participating, see you next week
#
Zakim
-eprodrom
#
eprodrom
Thanks all
#
Zakim
-rhiaro
#
Zakim
- +1.509.375.aadd
#
Zakim
-Tsyesika
#
Zakim
- +33.6.43.93.aacc
#
Zakim
-cwebber2
#
Zakim
-elf-pavlik
#
bblfish
thanks
#
Zakim
-aaronpk
#
wilkie
thanks
#
Zakim
-wilkie
#
Zakim
-harry
#
Zakim
-Sandro
#
Zakim
- +1.408.335.aaff
#
cwebber2
I don't remember how to end the meeting
#
cwebber2
trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been +1.514.554.aaaa, Sandro, aaronpk, +1.773.614.aabb, eprodrom, jasnell, elf-pavlik, cwebber2, harry, Tsyesika, tantek, wilkie, Ann,
#
Zakim
... +33.6.43.93.aacc, +1.509.375.aadd, rhiaro, +1.408.335.aaee, +1.408.335.aaff
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent
I see no action items
AnnB_ joined the channel
#
AnnB_
thanks a lot for good minutes, cwebber2
#
cwebber2
AnnB_: np! :)
#
harry
AnnB_, we are trying to figure out what happened last week - sorry for being out with the flu.
#
harry
Maria has it in her 'to-do' list for today, and I'll keep hassling her.
#
AnnB_
I know you were out .. no worries.. flu is no fun!
#
AnnB_
I'm surprised Maria is the one who handles that..?
#
tantek
what happened last week?
#
tantek
the doubling of bots?
#
Zakim
disconnecting the lone participant, Ann, in T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
#
Zakim
T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
#
Zakim
... rhiaro, +1.408.335.aaee, +1.408.335.aaff
#
Zakim
Attendees were +1.514.554.aaaa, Sandro, aaronpk, +1.773.614.aabb, eprodrom, jasnell, elf-pavlik, cwebber2, harry, Tsyesika, tantek, wilkie, Ann, +33.6.43.93.aacc, +1.509.375.aadd,
#
tantek
Aww AnnB, Zakim hung up on you?
harry joined the channel
#
AnnB_
what happened last week was that Zakim did not get set up for the new IG time
#
AnnB_
they thought it was, but wasn't
#
tantek
when is the new IG time?
#
AnnB_
still on Wed, but 1 hour earlier than what it was
#
AnnB_
so now, 8am Pacific
#
AnnB_
(for you and me)
#
tantek
oh wow ok
#
tantek
no longer conflicting with CSSWG at 9am Pacific
#
AnnB_
we had a doodle .. trying to improve for peeps in Europe
#
AnnB_
unfortunately still totally bad for peeps in Asia .. but no one in Asia responded, so ... darn
#
tantek
AnnB, BTW as IG chair, you should feel free to add agenda items directly to the f2f meeting agenda and put your name on them: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Agenda
#
AnnB_
thanks
#
tantek
you asked earlier about an agenda
#
AnnB_
I'm not shy, as you know
#
AnnB_
my bigger prob is getting the IG agenda together!
#
tantek
and I almost turned that around in the telcon and asked - well, why are you traveling to the meeting? what do you hope to get out of it?
bblfish joined the channel
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AnnB_
just thinking about that now .. for tomorrow.. aaack
#
elf-pavlik
AnnB_ o/
#
elf-pavlik
AnnB_ I would like to send out invite for Vocabulary TF telecon tomorrow, does it sound ok with you? I just had chance to catch up with minutes from last week telecon and didn't see anything about this week there
#
harry
Yep, am meeting with secretary to debug want went wrong this afternoon. I am really sorry that the telecon went wrong.
#
harry
My suspicion was that she did the classic Social WG/IG confusion, but not sure what happened here.
#
harry
I'll ping the list as soon as I figure it out.
#
elf-pavlik
harry, Jason Haag still doesn't show up on http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72532&public=1 what he should do?
#
harry
Yep, we need to get the chairs to approve.
#
elf-pavlik
they have parallel work in http://adlnet.gov on extensible vocabulary for xAPI (fork of AS1) and he hopefully will join Vocabulary TF meeting tomorrow
#
elf-pavlik
harry, he wants to join IG and AnnB_ already approved his request together with Lynn
#
tantek
harry - melvster also mentioned he is waiting for Invited Expert approval - can you check the queue for him?
#
tantek
for the WG
#
harry
OK, let me check the IG - for the WG we are being a bit more strict as shown on the wiki.
#
elf-pavlik
Lynn already shows up on member's page but for some reason Jason doesn't
#
AnnB_
sorry, was outside with some workers .. building a shed for my bike! wOOt!
#
Loqi
giggles
#
elf-pavlik
BTW Vocab-WG from xAPI will meet again this week on friday and i plan to participate in their bi-weekly meeting
#
AnnB_
haha Loqi, you're the best
#
elf-pavlik
they also have Slack and GDrive folder for coordinating that work
AnnB joined the channel
#
AnnB
weird... I keep getting dropped
#
AnnB
anyway .. elf-pavlik, fine with me if you send out vocab TF for tomorrow
#
AnnB
I was struggling with agenda
#
elf-pavlik
sending now!
#
AnnB
cool beans
#
AnnB
I have 2 big work projects, plus I have to move office ... feeling overwhelmed
#
AnnB
so that's perfect
#
elf-pavlik
AnnB does the Zakim telecon works now 1500UTC ?
#
AnnB
they're trying to make sure that it does, elf
#
AnnB
(the telecon)
#
elf-pavlik
did you have to do something special last week to have VoIP reservation for 1500UTC?
#
AnnB
I did nothing. Harry had asked the staff to move the Zakim reservation to the new time .. and everyone thought it was set up
#
AnnB
now they're checking
#
AnnB
part of the prob was that Harry, coincidentally, was out sick .. so he couldn't help us in real time
#
elf-pavlik
ok, in worst case we just jump to different IRC channel and request one time telecon
#
harry
Yep, you may have to request a one-time telecon. We still haven't debugged it, it seems from our end it should have worked so its kinda odd.
#
elf-pavlik
i'll try to address by tomorrow some of the overlap with Credentials CG and work on OpenBadges happening there, which also stays connected with xAPI developments
#
AnnB
you're great elf!
#
AnnB
Harry -- how about cancelling it altogether, and then setting it up from scratch?
#
harry
That's basically what was done - so the question is why the code didn't work.
#
harry
anyways, we'll get you an answer by EOB ET today
#
elf-pavlik
thanks harry++
#
elf-pavlik
if you could still check if Jason needs to fill out some more forms or do anything else to appear on http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72532&public=1
#
AnnB
and, we need to get Larry reinstated
#
AnnB
and, also, Jessica doesn't show up in the WG participants list: https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72531
#
AnnB
man, all this logistics stuff takes a lot of time, eh?
#
elf-pavlik
harry, does system send some notice before removing an invited expert from the group?
#
harry
yep, usually.
#
harry
Of course, if the person doesn't fill in the IE form they won't be re-instated.
#
harry
As they have to re-commit their patent commits
#
AnnB
is that the hang-up with any of Jason, Larry or Jessica?
#
elf-pavlik
do you know if Tsyesika also got automatically removed from WG? https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72531&public=1
#
AnnB
that they need to fill out some forms
#
AnnB
I don't think so .. I think she never showed on the list
#
AnnB
I'm not clear, actually
#
AnnB
but rather than try to sort out what happened in the past, let's get it straight now
#
Tsyesika
oh yeah for some reason i've never been on that list
#
AnnB
but you're on the email list, right?
#
elf-pavlik
maybe same reason why Jason doesn't show up on list of IG members
#
Tsyesika
i am on the mailing list
#
elf-pavlik
trackbot status
#
trackbot
knows about these 46 users: Ann, Reuben, Adam, John, Mark, Tantek, Bret, wilkie, Pavlik, Laurent Walter, Amy, Harry, Sandro, DUK KI, Shane, Renato, Jonathan, Paul Changjin, Geun Hyung, Jaakko, Andreas, Arnaud, Hyejin, Randall, Bill, Fabio Luciano, Alexandre, Aaron, Evan, Benjamin, Jason, Dan, Doug, Wendy, Owen, Hyunjin, dave, James, Eric, Henry, James, Claudio, Christopher, XIAOHAI, Erik, Benjamin
#
elf-pavlik
Tsyesika I don't see you on list above
#
Tsyesika
hm not sure
#
elf-pavlik
Tsyesika what do you see when you go to https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72531/join (and authenticate)
#
Tsyesika
I don't know what the process is that gets somene on that list, it was evan who vouched for me as an invited expert and he mentioned in one early meeting when i became part of the WG
#
harry
The WG IE process is on the wiki
#
Tsyesika
hm it says "I, Jessica Tallon, as W3C Invited Expert," then a bunch of checkboxes and then accept at the bottom
#
harry
The IG process is chair's discretion
#
elf-pavlik
Tsyesika looks like you need to fill out this form choosing Social Web charter something radio box :S
#
Tsyesika
oh at the top i somehow missed it, it says "Only AC Representative, selected Invited Experts and Staff Contacts can use this form to join or leave a group ; since you're not logged as any of those, you won't be allowed to submit this form. Additional instructions for joining this group are available."
#
Tsyesika
strange
#
elf-pavlik
harry ^ ?
#
harry
Tysika, that's the wrong form.
#
Tsyesika
oh i see
#
harry
Again, this is all spelled out on web-page:
#
Tsyesika
i've already filled that in
#
harry
I'm happy to double-check database.
#
elf-pavlik
harry when i go to https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72531/join i see "Already participating in the Social Web Working Group"
#
harry
OK folks, this is not super-hard to understand.
#
harry
When you fill out the IE form, if you are accepted you shouldn't fill it out again.
#
harry
If you are not accepted yet, it's probably because the chairs haven't approved.
#
harry
Most likely because we haven't had a chairs meeting in a while
#
harry
If you *are* approved, then you should get an email.
#
harry
If you think you've been approved but aren't sure, I'm happy to double-check database.
#
Tsyesika
well i know i filled that in and evan did say i had been approved
#
harry
I'll look for you in a few minutes Tsyesika, I'm in another f2f meeting now
#
Tsyesika
okay no problem
#
Tsyesika
thanks harry
#
Tsyesika
i shall look for my IRC logs to see what evan said
#
elf-pavlik
harry, Lynn after getting approval to IG received email with subject "Follow up on your W3C Invited Expert application" and link to https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72532/join
#
harry
I'm pretty sure you are approved, sometimes the database is not updated,
#
harry
Re Lynn, maybe he didn't fill out patent commits properly, go figure.
#
elf-pavlik
i see in forward of that email: "Cc: team-ie-process@w3.org, hhalpin@w3.org"
#
elf-pavlik
I all worked out for Lynn, but she received email with link to form which you just called 'wrong'
#
elf-pavlik
From: <sysbot+ipp@w3.org> Date: Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 2:10 PM Subject: Follow up on your W3C Invited Expert application To: foster.j.lynn@gmail.com Cc: team-ie-process@w3.org, hhalpin@w3.org
#
elf-pavlik
harry it looks like you get copy of all the emails going out to people who got approval as Invited Expert
#
Tsyesika
one of the first things evan said
#
harry
Yes, I do get copies. I am not sure why Lynn got the wrong form - there should be a button that asks if you work for a W3C member company or not.
#
Tsyesika
"<evanpro> Tsyesika: we just added you as an IE so you're welcome to join the call. "
#
harry
its possible the wrong button was clicked in the form, again, happy to check the database, but it is odd she got a link to the wrong form in email.
#
elf-pavlik
Tsyesika did you get email from sysbot+ipp@w3.org with subject: "Follow up on your W3C Invited Expert application" ?
#
harry
[just hold on folks, debugging - sending me tons of IRC messages is not going to make this faster, but slower]
#
harry
Tsyekia, what is your W3C username?
#
Tsyesika
Tsyesika
#
Tsyesika
errr, lowercast actually i think
#
Tsyesika
elf-pavlik: don't think so
#
elf-pavlik
harry, you should have this email in you inbox as well since it has you in cc, even more "Regards, Harry Halpin <hhalpin@w3.org>"
#
elf-pavlik
Tsyesika did you search you mailbox for it?
#
elf-pavlik
from: sysbot+ipp@w3.org subject: "Follow up on your W3C Invited Expert application"
#
Tsyesika
i did but i did loose some mail late last year so it's possible i don't have it unfortunately
#
Tsyesika
i did recover most of them though
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elf-pavlik
ha.ry must have all the copies since he gets crazy amount of cc @|@
#
Tsyesika
well, we'll see what turns up when harry can search the db
#
Zakim
excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
#
harry
ok, just finished IG investigation - see email, Zakim should work tomorrow for the vocabulary TF
#
harry
[now looking up Tsyesika]
#
harry
tyesika, you still there?
#
harry
According to the database, you are a full-fledged IE in the WG and IG
#
Tsyesika
i'm here
#
Tsyesika
sounds good
#
harry
OK, I've double-checked and just re-iniated the process just in case
#
harry
So you'll get a new email that says you are a member of the WG and IG
#
harry
If you could double-check to make sure you can edit the wiki (that's a good test) that would be grand. Maybe give us 30 minutes for the reset to propagate.
#
Tsyesika
:) thanks!
#
Tsyesika
i shall test in 30 minutes
#
harry
Again, sorry - sometimes things can be a bit clunky at W3.org, our underlying tooling is from the 90s.
#
harry
However, we are working on upgrading:
#
Tsyesika
is it any pages in paticular? or can i just edit my user page?
#
harry
Check both editing capabilities on www.w3.org/Social/WG and /Social/IG
#
harry
try to edit the main homepage
#
harry
[now checking Lynn]
#
Loqi
@poulpita :: [clapclap] amazed by the work presented by @robinberjon related to @W3C modern tooling (yess modern tooling !) http://w3c.github.io/modern-tooling/ #bravo
#
Tsyesika
okay will do
#
elf-pavlik
harry all fine with Lynn, please see Jason Haag
#
elf-pavlik
they just both got approved at the same time and while Lynn shows up on members page Jason not
#
elf-pavlik
same with list of people in IG tracker
#
harry
OK, double-checking Haag
#
harry
So, what was the issue with Lynn?
#
harry
You kept sending me emails about it
#
elf-pavlik
i sent it to you so you see what she received after you and Ann approved both requests
#
harry
According to the database, Haag is fine for the IG
#
elf-pavlik
harry, he doesn't show up on list of members and in IG tracker
#
elf-pavlik
and i have no clue how many databases W3C uses ;)
#
harry
They just haven't filled out the IP form.
#
harry
I would assume.
#
elf-pavlik
can you give me link to that IP form?
#
harry
I'll talk to them directly rather than have you continually bombard elf, OK?
#
elf-pavlik
harry sure
#
harry
IF you are approved, you should be able to fill it out.
#
elf-pavlik
jhaag [10:36 PM] option for me to accept jhaag [10:38 PM] but the accept button is disabled and I can't check the boxes
#
harry
Now, if people have multiple username or password issues, they need to use the username/password they registered with
#
harry
Well, he's probably not logged in or using wrong username.
#
elf-pavlik
can i invite him here?
#
harry
I've just sent him an email saying that he has to login.
#
harry
That's fine, but Im going offline in about 15 minutes
#
harry
Anyways, email to remind him to login in sent, you were cc'ed.
#
harry
My guess would be he forgot to login
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elf-pavlik
without login this page doesn't even show up
#
elf-pavlik
so he must have logged in to see form he can't submit
#
ben_thatmustbeme
sorry i missed the meeting today guys
#
elf-pavlik
ben_thatmustbeme we pretty much just spoken a lot about next F2F
#
ben_thatmustbeme
in the hospital with my wife (she is having contractions at 32 weeks)
#
elf-pavlik
and than issue-19 striked back ;)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i knew it would
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i saw the email
#
ben_thatmustbeme
waste of time
#
elf-pavlik
i hope they doing fine!
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yes, the babies look to be staying in... hopefully for another 2 weeks
#
elf-pavlik
babies++
#
Loqi
babies has 3 karma
#
harry
Yep, IMHO I think people need to stop wasting time in telecons and discuss technical issues.
#
tantek
harry - should we have rejected issue 19 because it was non-technical?
#
tantek
we (as chairs)
#
harry
No, I think our closure is fine. We have multiple channels, like most other WGs.
#
harry
The underlying issue is that bblfish I think is claiming he can't communicate to you and is upset people aren't reading his emails.
danbri joined the channel
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harry
Of course, I'm sure quite a few people are simply going TL;DR to some of his emails or just autodelete some people.
#
harry
I mean, its impolite and I don't encourage it, but we can't use process or an issue to force people to pay attention to each other.
JasonHaag joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
harry, i saw your response email, i think you are pretty on target, especially since (a) this all started because henry wanted to argue over a user story that has only a single +1 vote (his) and (b) it seems that throwing a link in to the agenda seems to be a good way to bring up important things to the group
#
harry
Looking though the database even more for Haag, it seems the problem is that Haag has multiple user-names
#
harry
At some point we should clean this up, but in the meantime I'll just make sure all usernames have the same access level.
#
elf-pavlik
tantek can you join next IG Use Case telecon on May 6th 1500UTC?
#
JasonHaag
thanks Harry
#
elf-pavlik
Hi JasonHaag :)
#
tantek
unfortunately no elf-pavlik
#
harry
JasonHaag, what is your username that you actually use?
#
JasonHaag
what are the usernames?
#
harry
We have two Haag's in our database
#
harry
So, when you login there should be a username/password somewhere asked for
danbri1 joined the channel
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JasonHaag
ok I accepted
#
JasonHaag
not sure which one of me that might in your system, but that's the one I used to login just now
#
tantek
harry: more to the point re: issue-19, is that I've given up on having email discussion with those that claim architecture etc. but don't actually build any of it on their own site.
#
harry
ok, haag - we may still have problems with the two accounts, so when you figure out which username you are using email us and we'll see if we can delete the old account.
#
tantek
it's just a waste of time at best, and a DoPA at worst: http://tantek.com/w/DenialOfProductivityAttack
#
harry
I think you've made that clear on the phone Tantek so I think maybe bblfish will just have to learn that you two have disagreements. That's fine, as long as they don't lead to blocking progress on the spec, which I don't see this disagreement doing.
#
tantek
right
#
elf-pavlik
JasonHaag, thanks for dropping by and see you tomorrow at #socialig during Vocabulary TF meeting! BTW I'll read http://imsglobal.org/pressreleases/pr150421.html since it also got mentioned today by Nate Otto on Credentials CG call...
#
harry
OK, do we have any other invited experts we know of that aren't showing up?
#
harry
[I'm double-checking emails now]
#
elf-pavlik
tantek you work with Mozilla :D ^ "IMS partners with Mozilla Foundation to accelerate adoption and interoperability of badges in the education and workforce sectors."
#
aaronpk
!tell AnnB Loqi reports wiki edits to the IRC channel!
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
elf-pavlik
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/invited-experts says [ Tibor Katelbach] - vouched for by Arnaud
#
harry
ok, will check on Tibor
#
elf-pavlik
I remember he joined two of very early telecons and Arnaud asked him to leave since he didn't have membership
#
elf-pavlik
also lately they released beta of http://www.pixelhumain.com/
danbri joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
harry maybe Tsyesika also just needs to submit such IP form as Jason did?
#
harry
possible, Tyesika, check email
#
Tsyesika
yep i got the email
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elf-pavlik
with link to a form?
#
Tsyesika
accepted now since i had already read though all the forms when i applied
#
Tsyesika
err charters
#
Tsyesika
elf-pavlik: yep, same link
#
elf-pavlik
well, no clue what worked differently now...
#
elf-pavlik
trackbot status
#
trackbot
knows about these 47 users: Ann, Reuben, Adam, John, Mark, Tantek, Bret, wilkie, Pavlik, Laurent Walter, Amy, Harry, Sandro, DUK KI, Shane, Renato, Jonathan, Paul Changjin, Geun Hyung, Jaakko, Andreas, Arnaud, Hyejin, Randall, Bill, Fabio Luciano, Alexandre, Aaron, Evan, Benjamin, Jason, Dan, Doug, Wendy, Owen, Hyunjin, dave, James, Eric, Henry, Jessica, James, Claudio, Christopher, XIAOHAI, Erik, Benjamin
#
harry
Tsyesika, did you accept? If so, you should be join.
#
Tsyesika
i accepted both yep
#
elf-pavlik
all worked out just fine this time :D
#
Tsyesika
I'm on the list of members too
#
harry
great
the_frey joined the channel
#
harry
ok, Tibor has a 6 month invite
#
harry
I remember that there was pushback from Tantek and others on his case given his software didn't exist at the time, but Arnaud wanted him approved and vouched for him, so I guess that is enough.
#
tantek
harry - the fear was that he there wasn't any actual implementation / selfdogfooding
#
harry
Yes, I think that may still be the case
#
tantek
and thus might add to the "architecture" centric discussions
#
tantek
rather than being implementation centric
#
tantek
we already have too much architecture centric noise
#
harry
Yep. In general 'magic architecture' discussions should be avoided.
#
tantek
and it distracts from being pragmatic (using what already works today)
#
harry
However, I think we should just get a FPWD we can all live with and evolve it with the code.
#
harry
I hope to get to that point after the Paris F2F
#
tantek
I mean for the group as a whole
#
tantek
these past two telcons are big contrast
#
tantek
last telcon we got numerous technical issues for AS2 resolvd
#
tantek
this time, only resolutions were approving previous minutes
#
harry
yep, which is why I want to keep ISSUE-19 closed
#
tantek
approving non-builder non-selfdogfooding invited experts will only hurt group productivity
#
harry
It just leads to arguments that take up the valuable telecon time.
#
elf-pavlik
tantek we can try next time to time how much people speak, today you took quite some time to talk about next F2F
#
harry
Yes, we should probably think of setting time-limits, the F2F discussion was rather pointless.
#
tantek
yes elf-pavlik apologies that part was my fault for sure
#
harry
I just wanted people not to be worried that we were going to make a decision at the F2F without them :)
#
tantek
it was an attempt to focus the f2f on pragmatic discussions not architecture discussions
#
elf-pavlik
good ping harry
#
elf-pavlik
s/ping/point/
#
tantek
but perhaps that is hopeless
#
tantek
and I shouldn't even try
#
harry
I agree that we should aim at pragmatic discussions.
#
harry
We will have an architecture-heavy group showing up, but also some people at the AC we want to get involved.
#
tantek
that's not going to make a good impression on other AC people
#
harry
Anyways, I think we should have a chairs meeting with Arnaud to go over a draft agenda next week.
#
harry
Before folks fly off, and the WG can then review the agenda in detail - the current agenda is a bit vague.
#
harry
[off to fix minutes from last f2f]
#
Loqi
harry has 10 karma
#
elf-pavlik
tantek I'll go to IndieWebCamp in Dusseldorf after Paris
#
tantek
harry - both focusing on pragmatic discussions and building a specific agenda requires *strong* chairing
#
tantek
otherwise people just blather on about whatever they queue up for
#
elf-pavlik
I will most likely focus on JSON-LD serialization for microformats and will have chance to discuss with rhiaro https://github.com/rhiaro/mf2rdf
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: good there should be a lot of builders at IWC Düsseldorf
#
harry
well, I'm more than happy to give chairs the 'mute' button
#
tantek
anyway we'll see - I'm terribly optimistic about the f2f
#
tantek
but we'll see
#
elf-pavlik
tantek do you see any issue with using this prefix - https://github.com/rhiaro/mf2rdf/blob/master/microformats2.owl#L1
#
tantek
mf2 is a common abbreviation for microformats2
#
tantek
used in libraries etc.
#
elf-pavlik
i mean the URI it maps to :)
#
aaronpk
elf-pavlik: http://microformats.org/terms is 404, why would you use that?
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: XFN URLs are already defined on gmpg.org
#
tantek
why do you want to map to another URL?
#
rhiaro
aaronpk: the url mf2 maps to should resolve to the ontology, either the owl file directly or a human readable version
#
elf-pavlik
i don't just didn' know it already has prefix
#
tantek
it doesn't have prefixes, just URLs
#
rhiaro
/terms was a placeholder
#
elf-pavlik
added it to IG Vocabulary TF page
#
rhiaro
previously I used /profile which was what tommorris used on the RDF page in the microformats wiki, but after a brief disucssion with tantek I agreed that this url didn't particularly make sense (even though it's still a placeholder)
#
tantek
tommorris is the right resource to ask, but on # microformats on freenode
bblfish joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
rhiaro same prefix used in JSON-LD spec http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats
#
rhiaro
elf-pavlik: ah that would explain it
#
rhiaro
either way, that didn't resolve either last time I checked
#
rhiaro
oh, so I see
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rhiaro
be good to do the same for mf2
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aaronpk
that's the canonical page for h-entry
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elf-pavlik
why not? :)
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rhiaro
they don't all resolve like that though
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aaronpk
they don't?
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rhiaro
p- and u- and e- mostly don't have their own pages
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aaronpk
you need them to?
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rhiaro
in order to use microformats.org/wiki/ as the base, yeh
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rhiaro
also it would be extra good if they could also return rdf... since it's an rdf ontology, that rdf people would want to use.. :p
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aaronpk
this seems complicated
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rhiaro
aaronpk: the idea is just to give a definitive URL to each term in a vocabulary
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rhiaro
ideally the URL would resolve to some useful documentation about the term
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rhiaro
that's all
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rhiaro
ideally ideally it would return html for a human and something machine readable like rdf to a machine
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aaronpk
might be worth asking in #microformats on freenode about whether a wiki page for individual property names would be a useful thing for people
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk we talk about machines not only people
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aaronpk
emphasis on human benefits first
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elf-pavlik
machines can do more without my supervision -> my benefit :)
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rhiaro
what we're talking about is an rdf ontology, and anyone wanting to use that would find use for machine readable versions of terms. I only made it to play, I'm not that invested, but if anyone wants to use it properly it should be set up this way
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elf-pavlik
anyways, URL can return 404 and people can still use it as unique identifier
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rhiaro
connegging version is at http://vocab.amy.so/mf2 at the moment
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elf-pavlik
this way we don't end up with "do i have to register *micropub* with IANA or microformats"
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rhiaro
ooorrr not
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rhiaro
sometimes vocab.amy.so breaks :p
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro maybe let's just use @prefix mf2: <http://microformats.org/wiki/> .
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elf-pavlik
and everyone who needs missing page can add it :)
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elf-pavlik
we could also maybe just add to the wiki <link rel=alternate type="application/ld+json" /> and <link rel=alternate type="text/turtle" />
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elf-pavlik
and till server logs show enough requests trying to negotiate for that content type, it should work well enough
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rhiaro
elf-pavlik: sure
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rhiaro
good compromise
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aaronpk
bblfish: you seem to be describing a reader!
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aaronpk
kylewm: does woodwind allow you to filter a feed by tags now?
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kylewm
aaronpk: it lets you tag feeds themselves and only view feeds with certain tags. it doesn't parse out tags on individual posts, but that would be cool
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aaronpk
ah okay! that was one of the first things I added to monocle
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aaronpk
if you did that, you could follow people's blogs here looking for only certain keywords
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AnnB
thanks, aaronpk!
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Loqi
AnnB: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 57 minutes ago: Loqi reports wiki edits to the IRC channel! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-04-21/line/1429650668051
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AnnB
it seems to me that IRC is a pretty good discussion mode
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AnnB
and you guys have developed some useful tools with loqi ... tell! and the logs .. and not sure if there's more
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aaronpk
Loqi does a neat trick in the #indiewebcamp channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-19/line/1429470080559
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AnnB
my concern was that A) I don't feel like we truly ever figured out how to discuss stuff; and B) wikis don't seem to me to be the right tool for discussion
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AnnB
(and we were being pointed at wikis for that)
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aaronpk
we've had a great experience with discussion happening in IRC and then flowing to the wiki
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aaronpk
the wiki is good for capturing summaries of conversations
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AnnB
yes -- collaborative capturing .. that's what it's good for
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AnnB
(sounds like cannibals on the loose)
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AnnB
that link you put .. is it search in IRC or some such?
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aaronpk
and Loqi is reporting edits to socialwg pages to the IRC channel, so you can always follow this channel instead of the full recentchanges w3c wiki
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AnnB
oh, I see
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AnnB
yes, we have that here, right? I do find that valuable .. it makes it very clear who's editing the wiki .. and with link if one wants to go read
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AnnB
all of these tools really improve the utility of IRC as a collaboration tool
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AnnB
thanks for pointing those out
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AnnB
I'm eager to learn more, but HAVE to go work on somethign else
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aaronpk
the link I sent you is from the indiewebcamp IRC logs http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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AnnB
I'm heavily involved in organizing a hackathon in our 737 factory
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AnnB
too darn bad all you hot dogs can't participate!
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AnnB
unfortunately I'll be in Paris
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AnnB
waaaa
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aaronpk
is there a list of members of the socialwg on the wiki somewhere?