#social 2015-04-21

2015-04-21 UTC
#
aaronpk !tell evanpro oh no I found a broken link on your site! https://e14n.com/2010/07/21/federated-social-web-summit-wrapup
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
tilgovi, Arnaud, cwebber2`, danbri and danbri1 joined the channel
#
Loqi Bblfish made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-04-21]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83736&oldid=83660
pfefferle, danbri, melvster1, Arnaud1, tilgovi and elf-pavlik joined the channel
#
cwebber2 I'm gonna flat out admit that I'm having trouble following the as:link debate
#
cwebber2 elf-pavlik: could you clarify if my understanding of the debate is right?
#
cwebber2 elf-pavlik: is this about activitystreams 1.0 backwards compatibility vs "json-ld can handle this whole structure already"?
#
cwebber2 or is it something else
#
cwebber2 it would be good to know. I know I'm not the only one who is confused.
#
Loqi Jsnell made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-04-21]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83743&oldid=83736
#
rhiaro cwebber2++
eprodrom joined the channel
#
Loqi cwebber2 has 26 karma
#
elf-pavlik cwebber2 hi :)
#
cwebber2 hey elf-pavlik
#
cwebber2 :)
#
elf-pavlik cwebber2 have you looked at diagram in https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/98#issuecomment-92719595 ?
#
elf-pavlik BTW we might at least go over as:rel issue https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/100
#
cwebber2 elf-pavlik: yes, and I feel like it should make it obvious to me, but every time I look at it my brain grinds to a halt :)
#
cwebber2 I feel like there's history here for what as:Link is used for traditionally that I'm missing.
#
elf-pavlik do know Entity Attribute Value (EAV) model? IMO same as Subject Predicate Object
#
cwebber2 maybe I should look it up and it's my own fault :)
#
cwebber2 I don't know that term, I'm familiar with subject predicate object obviously :)
#
elf-pavlik forgetting the *as:rel* part which we might have resolved in pull#100
#
elf-pavlik one of the main issue I see with as:Link and which this diagram explains - we make statements on some made up subject
#
elf-pavlik s/on some/with some/
#
cwebber2 sure, so your complaint is that its' extra indirection?
#
cwebber2 whereas we could be referring directly?
#
elf-pavlik instead make them directly on an as:Object we want to describe
#
elf-pavlik action-57
#
trackbot is looking up action-57.
#
trackbot action-57 -- Pavlik elf to extract all AS2.0 examples in specs into separate files + expose them to JSON-LD Playground -- due 2015-04-14 -- CLOSED
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/57
#
elf-pavlik i see need to use JSON-LD Playground to explain other issues
#
cwebber2 I guess I should know more about how IETF-style link relations work
#
elf-pavlik for example we use as value (rdf:object) instance of as:Link which has *href* attribute
#
cwebber2 since eprodrom is saying that's why we need to keep as:Link around
#
cwebber2 so is that basically the debate? Supporting IETF style link relations, vs reducing complexity in the RDF / linked data style representation?
#
elf-pavlik so we end up with blank node (in many ways problematic) where we could have prefectly fine @id, worst of all without any clear reason, best reasoning i've heard so far relates to labels one would want to put on those links
#
elf-pavlik cwebber2 with pull#100 we move away from *as:rel*
#
eprodrom elf-pavlik: so, this is an element that I've got in production, using thousands of times per day
#
elf-pavlik and for more background on current state of IETF link relations in RDF i recommend issue started by dret https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39
#
eprodrom I'm not sure why you want to take it away
#
elf-pavlik eprodrom, did you register your link relations or you use full URIs ?
jasnell joined the channel
#
eprodrom Sorry, what's that got to do with it?
#
elf-pavlik also can you please provide link to real world use of it? i very likely can suggest how to do it in standard JSON-LD
#
eprodrom elf-pavlik: that's great
#
cwebber2 okay, so just to be clear
#
elf-pavlik if you use unregistered relations in short form (not full URI), AFAIK you already don't conform with existing specs and IMO you should fix it
AnnB joined the channel
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: you're saying we already have all these IETF style link relations in existing activitystreams 1.0 style documents, and it would suck to break that (and are you also arguing there's an advantage there?)
#
eprodrom Yes
#
cwebber2 and elf-pavlik, you're arguing this complicates the relationships, adds blank nodes to the actual graph of things once parsed from the json-ld, is that right?
#
cwebber2 I'm trying to get a summary of the issue for us mere peons
#
elf-pavlik cwebber2 i think we already don't have full backwards compatibility with AS1 ?
#
eprodrom Not expecting it
#
eprodrom The advantage is that we're using the same relations in AS2 that we'd use in HTML5, HTTP, Webfinger
#
eprodrom elf-pavlik: https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/blob/master/API.md lists at least "self"
#
eprodrom I'll dig up the rest of them in the pump.io code
#
elf-pavlik eprodrom++ thanks!
#
eprodrom OK
#
Loqi eprodrom has 12 karma
#
eprodrom Question, before I waste a lot of time on it
#
eprodrom At what point do you drop this?
#
eprodrom How many examples do I need to provide?
jasnell_ joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik at least few that we can agree in this group that make actual sense with our current direction in mind
#
elf-pavlik { "@id": "http://coding.example/api/activity/bwkflwken", "links": [ {"rel": "self", "href": "http://coding.example/api/activity/bwkflwken"}] }
#
eprodrom OK, sounds fair
#
eprodrom What I like about link relations is that they're open-ended
harry joined the channel
#
cwebber2 okay
#
harry waves
#
elf-pavlik i don't think that linking to itself will justify introducing as:Link but i must understand this construct better
#
cwebber2 well I think I have a vague understanding of the debate now
#
cwebber2 enough to know I can survive no matter which way the conclusion goes :)
#
cwebber2 so I'm gonna let you all nerd out on this one
#
harry trackbot, start meeting
#
trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
#
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-social-irc
#
trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
#
RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
#
trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
#
Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
#
trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot Date: 21 April 2015
#
elf-pavlik just to clarify, James already prepared PR to drop *as:rel* https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/100
#
elf-pavlik back on actual call
#
harry excellent - sorry, there was some confusion and somehow the booking for the Social IG meeting didn't work, thought it might be a confusion in Zakim between WG and IG
#
elf-pavlik eprodrom, what do you mean by open-ended?
#
harry chairs, if you guys don't mind staying on after the call quickly, we have some new IE applications
#
Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started
#
harry I'll forward them out now, just recovering from most vicious flu ever
#
harry Zakim, code?
#
Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
#
Zakim + +1.514.554.aaaa
#
eprodrom trackbot, start meeting
#
trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
#
trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
#
RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
#
trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
#
Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now
#
trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot Date: 21 April 2015
#
eprodrom Zakim, aaaa is me
#
Zakim sorry, eprodrom, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
#
eprodrom Zakim, aaaa is eprodrom
#
Zakim sorry, eprodrom, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
#
aaronpk Zakim?
#
aaronpk Zakim, who is on the call?
#
Zakim I notice T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has restarted
#
Zakim On the phone I see +1.514.554.aaaa, Sandro, Marilyn, aaronpk, ??P8
#
Zakim + +1.773.614.aabb
#
eprodrom Zakim, aaaa is me
#
Zakim +eprodrom; got it
#
Zakim +??P2
#
aaronpk weird
#
Zakim +jasnell
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute ??P2
#
Zakim ??P2 should now be muted
#
cwebber2 Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim sorry, cwebber2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
#
harry Zakim, who's making noise?
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P2 is me
#
Zakim +elf-pavlik; got it
#
Zakim harry, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.773.614.aabb (9%), Marilyn (40%), ??P8 (9%), jasnell (4%)
#
harry someone has a bit of background noise :)
#
cwebber2 Zakim, aabb is me
#
Zakim +cwebber2; got it
#
harry Zakim, Marilyn is harry
#
Zakim +harry; got it
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P8 (74%)
#
Zakim -??P8
#
harry who is p8?
#
elf-pavlik just dropped
jasnell joined the channel
#
rhiaro One of the Ps would have been me, but it isn't showing when I join
#
eprodrom Zakim, who is on the call?
#
Zakim On the phone I see eprodrom, Sandro, harry, aaronpk, cwebber2, elf-pavlik (muted), jasnell
tantek joined the channel
#
rhiaro dialing again
#
Zakim +??P10
#
Zakim +??P8
#
Tsyesika Zakim, ??P10 is me
#
Zakim +Tsyesika; got it
#
elf-pavlik i don't have proper mic today once again so i will just listen and follow IRC :)
#
Tsyesika Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim Tsyesika should now be muted
#
rhiaro Zakim, who is on the call
#
Zakim I don't understand 'who is on the call', rhiaro
#
rhiaro Zakim, who is on the call?
#
Zakim On the phone I see eprodrom, Sandro, harry, aaronpk, cwebber2, elf-pavlik (muted), jasnell, Tsyesika (muted), ??P8
#
Zakim hears ??P8's hand up
#
Zakim sees ??P8 on the speaker queue
#
Zakim +??P11
#
Zakim -??P8
#
tantek zakim, ??p11 is me
#
Zakim +tantek; got it
#
cwebber2 morning
#
Tsyesika afternoon
#
cwebber2 good day ;)
#
elf-pavlik rhiaro problems with SIP ?
#
tantek zakim, mute m
#
Zakim sorry, tantek, I do not know which phone connection belongs to m
#
tantek zakim, mute me
#
Zakim tantek should now be muted
#
Zakim +??P8
#
eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-21
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute ??P8
#
Zakim ??P8 should now be muted
#
cwebber2 I can scribe
#
Zakim +[IPcaller]
#
wilkie Zakim, IPcaller is me
#
Zakim +wilkie; got it
#
elf-pavlik cwebber2++
#
Loqi cwebber2 has 27 karma
#
eprodrom scribenick cwebber2
#
elf-pavlik scribenick: cwebber2
#
elf-pavlik :
#
Zakim +Ann
#
rhiaro Zakim, who is on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, Sandro, harry, aaronpk, cwebber2, elf-pavlik (muted), jasnell, Tsyesika (muted), tantek (muted), ??P8 (muted), wilkie, Ann
#
Zakim + +33.6.43.93.aacc
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: let's get started. According to the agenda we have to review last week's minutes
#
cwebber2 ... I think we had an issue around our march 10 minutes
#
cwebber2 ... but those are complete now
#
rhiaro sound isn't good today, on and off
#
harry +1
#
eprodrom +1
#
wilkie +1
#
aaronpk +1
#
cwebber2 ... can we approve the march 10 minutes?
#
rhiaro +1
#
cwebber2 +1
#
Tsyesika +1
bblfish joined the channel
#
cwebber2 ... good, looks good
#
elf-pavlik +1 they had no resolutions
#
eprodrom RESOLVED: approved 10 Mar minutes
#
cwebber2 ... let's do the same for the april 14 minutes
#
jasnell +1
#
eprodrom PROPOSED: approve 14 april minutes
#
eprodrom +1
#
rhiaro +1
#
wilkie +1
#
cwebber2 +1
#
Tsyesika +1
#
aaronpk +1
#
eprodrom RESOLVED: approved 14 Apr minutes
almereyda joined the channel
#
cwebber2 ... okay good
#
elf-pavlik -0 not sure if i had time to understand all resulutions
#
cwebber2 ... nice and quick
#
tantek just the f2f missing
#
cwebber2 ... I think this means we are caught up on minutes, nice
#
Zakim + +1.509.375.aadd
#
harry we are just approving minutes
#
cwebber2 ... oh, elf-pavlik is looking to understand resolutions
#
cwebber2 ... this is just approval of minutes
#
tantek harry, any update on the f2f minutes?
#
elf-pavlik +0 if -0 stops sotmething
#
cwebber2 ... so the resolution is, approve the minutes
#
harry tantek - nope, I just got back from flu-land, need to give it another shot.
#
cwebber2 ... just trying to make sure elf-pavlik that you're okay. We don't need to stop unless you need more time to review the minutes.
#
elf-pavlik don't have mic
#
tantek get well soon harry!
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-14-minutes#Summary_of_Resolutions
#
cwebber2 AnnB: are there issues in the minutes, elf-pavlik ?
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: oh there were resolutions from 4-14, okay...
#
cwebber2 ... the question is, elf-pavlik ?
#
elf-pavlik we have just one week to object
#
cwebber2 ... I guess he's at a +0
#
cwebber2 ... so if no problem, we'll proceed
#
elf-pavlik yeah, not a big problem!
#
cwebber2 AnnB: we are still missing minutes from the f2f
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: yes that's right, I think we had a server issue
#
bblfish I suppose I have an issue on Issue-19, I put that up on for todays agenda.
#
cwebber2 harry: I had the flu but I'll get that now that I'm back to work
#
cwebber2 ... I have an open action
#
AnnB glad you're feeling better, Harry
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: great
#
AnnB can you also plz confirm the Zakim reservation, etc for socialIG?
#
cwebber2 ... next telecon is next tuesday at the same time (april 28), I believe I will chair it
#
cwebber2 ... which puts us back on our regular chair schedule
#
cwebber2 ... unless there are objections or reasons to change, let's plan on this meeting next week
ericstephan joined the channel
#
cwebber2 ... the other issue to discuss quickly is the upcoming face to face
#
cwebber2 ... want to address it, though not in the agenda, because this is usually when we address upcoming f2fs
#
elf-pavlik let's start adding things to agenda page!
#
cwebber2 ... do we have issues for the upcoming f2f?
#
harry q+
#
Zakim sees ??P8, harry on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 AnnB: the question is, what will the agenda be?
#
cwebber2 ... seems like those who were particularly active on the technical issues won't be there
#
cwebber2 ... what can we do to make it productive
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Goals_for_the_meeting
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: excellent question
#
cwebber2 ... let's look at the wiki page
#
cwebber2 ... we do have a wiki page for the event
#
cwebber2 ... we have demos on the social api candidates
#
cwebber2 ... that will be the main issue
#
eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04
#
cwebber2 harry: I think we can't get a resolution on the api because we're missing quite a few folks
#
tantek zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim tantek should no longer be muted
#
cwebber2 ... but wedo have quite a few people, including people who don't always make it to meetings, but I think we can get european input
#
tantek q+ re: demos should focus on approved user stories
#
Zakim sees ??P8, harry, tantek on the speaker queue
#
harry We still need to get written candidates for the APIs
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: I would really like to see us with written candidates at this time
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees ??P8, harry, tantek on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... we do have the activitypump candidate, which has been updated
#
eprodrom ack ??P8
#
Zakim unmutes ??P8
#
Zakim sees harry, tantek on the speaker queue
#
harry ActivityPump is now ready, micropub has been written, not sure re the rest of the approaches
#
harry ack harry
#
Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
harry Zakim, ??P8 is rhiaro
#
Zakim +rhiaro; got it
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute rhiaro
#
Zakim rhiaro should now be muted
#
sandro q+
#
Zakim sees tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro sorry, sound just went, and I'm not seeing any zakim responses
#
eprodrom ack tantek
#
Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss demos should focus on approved user stories
#
Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: while you work on that I will ack tantek
#
cwebber2 tantek: in reviewing demos from the last face to face
#
harry sandro - if you have an update on the Solid approach by the Paris f2f that would be grand
#
cwebber2 ... had a pretty good mix of candidate demos there
#
rhiaro I wasn't on the queue, I was button mashing to figure out who I was
#
rhiaro q-
#
Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... any demos should list up front which user stories they are demo'ing
#
cwebber2 ... that will show what we're accomplishing
#
elf-pavlik tantek, could you please add this comment to f2f wiki page?
#
cwebber2 ... if that doesn't show the user stories, that will be misleading
#
cwebber2 ... all our user stories involve some interaction
#
AnnB waves at ericstephan
#
cwebber2 ... so if all you're doing is something like a todo list
#
cwebber2 ... that's nothing to do with our user stories
#
ericstephan :-) Hi AnnB
#
AnnB glad you're here; sorry ..only now saw your email
#
cwebber2 ... if you're going to do a demo, please list that and what you're demoing
#
cwebber2 +q
#
Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
sandro harry, andrei's been busy writing... https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD
#
cwebber2 ... if you can't do that, don't demo
#
elf-pavlik sandro++
#
harry +1 great
#
Loqi sandro has 9 karma
#
cwebber2 ... because you aren't contributing towards doing a social api
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom ack sandro
#
Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 sandro: I just wanted to address the agenda of the meeting
#
cwebber2 ... I want to address the personal agenad
#
cwebber2 ... try to get a meeting of the minds on the issues that look to be showstoppers
#
ericstephan @AnnB no prob, it was just to obvious, that's what tripped me up
#
cwebber2 ... several things we've brought up
#
cwebber2 ... things like "we have to solve this to move forward"
#
AnnB smiles at the obvious
#
cwebber2 ... format we're posting, how we're doing extensibility, etc
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk will come
#
cwebber2 ... maybe if we can get indiewebcamp and ldp people to look at differences
#
elf-pavlik Tsyesika will also participate
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: I'll be participating by phone
#
Tsyesika i'll be at the europe f2f
#
cwebber2 ... tsyesika will be there too
#
harry great, we'll have all primary candidates!
#
bblfish q+
#
Zakim sees cwebber, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 sandro: I'm not looking for a decision given lack of people there
#
AnnB q+
#
Zakim sees cwebber, bblfish, AnnB on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... not sure we have enough stakeholders
#
elf-pavlik AFAIK rhiaro also has good grip on IndieWeb stack
#
cwebber2 ... at least look at what we need to do to show one is better than the other
#
eprodrom ack cwebber2
#
Zakim sees cwebber, bblfish, AnnB on the speaker queue
#
AnnB q-
#
Zakim sees cwebber, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom ack cwebber
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom cwebber2: as for showing demos, Tsyesika will be at the event
#
AnnB I just wanted to say we should schedule the agenda / demos, with sensitivity to time zone .. so people not attending F2F have best chance to attend remotely
#
eprodrom cwebber2: priorities have been emphasised on working on the spec rather than on implementations
#
eprodrom cwebber2: demos can be done from home, discussion of specs are helpful for f2f
#
Loqi Aboyet made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-04-21]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83744&oldid=83743
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: yes i would favor this as well, because activitypump is relatively new, a melding of several efforts
#
eprodrom ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... I would like to see that discussion process there
#
cwebber2 bblfish: sorry for having been offline for a while, was snowed under
#
cwebber2 ... yes from my perspective it will be interesting if going on what cwebber2 was saying is to see if what other people doing LDP are doing and how we understand the problem space
#
cwebber2 ... for the larger group, to see what the possibilities there are, it might be a technology everyone there is familiar with
#
elf-pavlik melvster also wants to demo some LDP / SoLiD
#
cwebber2 ... to see what the detail for what others might be, there may be things we haven't tried yet
#
cwebber2 ... good to play around with ideas from other communities and see how to do that in an LDP land
#
cwebber2 ... see if it would work
Arnaud joined the channel
#
melvster elf-pavlik: yes, booked my flights and hotel
#
elf-pavlik melvster++
#
Loqi melvster has 14 karma
#
cwebber2 ... last time we did demos, thus this time we should paint a broader picture around a certain activity
#
melvster did yet get a response about applying to join the group, hope someone could look at it :)
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: great, sounds like we have quite a bit of expectations for the upcoming event
#
cwebber2 ... tthat makes a lot of sense
#
sandro q+
#
Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... so we have a lot to go on there
#
elf-pavlik harry you will make it to Paris?
#
cwebber2 ... I'd like to go on to actions and issues
#
eprodrom ack sandro
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 sandro: yes this is a quick thing, I wonder if we can set a deadline like a week before the meeting for people to try to have a reviewed draft of their proposals and really if everyone who cares at all can review those drafts for the meeting for discussion points and etc
#
cwebber2 ... can we accept a deadline like that, and can we also commit to reading the draft in say, a week
#
elf-pavlik +1 reading submitted drafts!
#
bblfish I am happy to help with SoLiD
#
cwebber2 ... and I'm willing to commit to that on having a solid / reading a draft a week bfore
#
elf-pavlik i'll add it to next week agenda!
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: so a week before the meeting would more or less be next monday (or tues)
#
cwebber2 ... so we already have an activitypump submission
#
Tsyesika i am still working but i can do that
#
cwebber2 sandro: I hear Tsyesika is already working on the activitypump submission, can she get to that point
#
Tsyesika it's pretty close right now
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: I think it's good enough for discussion yes
#
Tsyesika i think
dret joined the channel
#
cwebber2 tantek: it would be similar for a deadline for demos
#
cwebber2 ... there may be a difference in expectations
#
cwebber2 ... if you want to demo, make a listing of what you'll demo a week before the meeting
#
cwebber2 ... anyone can do technology demos, not interesting
#
cwebber2 ... user story demos, interesting
#
cwebber2 for the record I don't agree on user demos or tech demos
#
Zakim + +1.408.335.aaee
#
cwebber2 vs
#
Zakim - +1.408.335.aaee
#
melvster FYI: I have proof of concept of : instant message / decentralized wallet / payment processor / task manager / integrations ... trying to get as much as possible ready for Paris
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: can we set a deadline on specs and demo deadlines
#
tantek melvster - which user stories?
#
elf-pavlik +1 specs -1 demos
#
cwebber2 sandro: I don't agree with deadline on demos don't think that's mportant
#
Zakim + +1.408.335.aaff
#
cwebber2 tantek: I think that's important, if you can't link to a user story on demos, do you even understand what you're doing in this group
#
cwebber2 sandro: I think you only demo something if it answers a question about one of the proposals
#
cwebber2 ... eg if I don't have an understanding on how to join a list
#
cwebber2 ... show that off
#
cwebber2 tantek: yoes, that'scoped to user storiess
#
cwebber2 sandro: but that will come up on review
#
AnnB I appreciate Tantek's effort to be focused and organized... But ".. do you even understand what you're doing in this group.. " sounds harsh to me
#
cwebber2 tantek: that's the point of voting on them, to focus the group
#
melvster tantek: i think probably a few, I could probably code up quite a few user stories on the day, if requested
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: let's step back, can we get consensus on specs ready for next tuesday
#
Tsyesika AnnB++
#
Loqi AnnB has 18 karma
#
melvster tantek: SolID really answers all the user stories
#
eprodrom PROPOSED: have specs for Social API candidates ready for review by 28 Apr 2015 meeting
#
eprodrom +1
#
Tsyesika +1 i can
#
elf-pavlik +1
#
cwebber2 +1
#
rhiaro +1
#
sandro +1
#
tantek melvster - then it should be easy to focus on and demo user stories instead of other things
#
aaronpk +1 boy do i have my work cut out for me ;)
#
ericstephan 0 I'm new no fair voting for me :-)
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: in tthis case a spec is something thatt explains the api
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
melvster tantek: im happy to demo anything anyone wants me to, or build something on the spot, or nothing at all, happy just to hang out :)
#
bblfish +1 I'd be happy to help Sandro and teams on the SoLiD
#
cwebber2 ... and demos are implementations of that api with a demo of it
#
cwebber2 ... seems like we have a strong consensus to have drafts on spec
#
cwebber2 ... don't have to be finalized
#
Loqi Estephan made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83745&oldid=83713
#
cwebber2 ... so we hope to have candidates ready
#
cwebber2 tantek: another reality, neither you nor I will be there, who will chair?
#
cwebber2 ... arnaud will chairing
#
eprodrom RESOLVED: have specs for Social API candidates ready for review by 28 Apr 2015 meeting
#
sandro bblfish, see https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD
#
cwebber2 ... it's up to him to focus the drive of it
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: that's true
#
harry It looks like W3C might fund me last minute to go to meeting, so I'll make sure this all gets transmitted to Arnaud.
#
sandro bblfish - I'm dropping off IRC now
#
bblfish thanks @sandro
#
bblfish see you on gitter
#
cwebber2 ... I think what we're proposing is that if people have proposals, out of courtesy for the group, giving people a chance to review and comment by a week is polite
#
AnnB bye sandro
#
cwebber2 tantek: agree
#
eprodrom PROPOSED: have demos for Social API candidates ready for review by 28 Apr 2015 meeting
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: as second proposal, to have demos for social api candidates ready for review
#
eprodrom +0
#
cwebber2 ... by next week
#
harry +1
#
cwebber2 +qa
#
Zakim sees a on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 er
#
cwebber2 +q
#
Zakim sees a, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 -q a
#
Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
tantek explicitly listing what user stories are to be demod
#
Tsyesika hm
#
tantek +1
#
cwebber2 AnnB: so what does that mean, voting for demos or you don't have one
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: personally I think this means showing things
#
cwebber2 ... specs
#
aaronpk +1 with explicit listing of which user stories are being demos
#
cwebber2 ... rather than demos
#
Tsyesika +0 i won't be able to build a demo for activitypump
#
sandro it's not okay to outlaw last-minute demos.
#
cwebber2 I have a counter-proposal
#
sandro if they are germaine
#
Tsyesika by the meeting
#
cwebber2 on the queue
#
bblfish q+
#
Zakim sees cwebber, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
sandro -1 as phrased... Let the chairs figure out what's germaine
#
cwebber2 tantek: you can't really evaluate a social api candidate to see what these can do
#
cwebber2 -0
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: that feeling is that this evaluation won't happen entirely at this face to face
#
cwebber2 ... I absolutely think we have to have demos, but I kinda feel like we need to get started with the specs
#
bblfish agree, this is a place to help draw the big picture of what is possible
#
cwebber2 tantek: yes I guess we have a different approach, I'd like to see that we have things working
#
cwebber2 ... especially in this space
#
cwebber2 ... we've had this convo before
#
KevinMarks https://twitter.com/zahedab/status/590562323854655488
#
Loqi @zahedab :: #ECMAScript @BrendanEich We Implement as we standardize so we don't have specs that don't implement #FluentConf
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: I agree
#
cwebber2 hey, I have an adjusted proposal
#
melvster imho SoLiD is a universal API, which should be compatible with any API this group creates, and I think could handle 90%+ of use cases
#
tantek Frankly I'm not really interested in spec / candidate API discussions that are disconnected from user stories
#
tantek melvster - so was WSDL - I don't believe in "universal APIs"
#
elf-pavlik cwebber2: when we go through specifications people can ask for clarifications on how they work with collected user stories
#
aaronpk universal APIs aren't useful, because they can do anything, they don't really do anything specifically
#
tantek and asking people for real world demos is a good way of filtering out such claims
#
tantek universalAPIs--
#
Loqi universalAPIs has -1 karma
#
aaronpk at some point you have to make a decision and write things down into an actual spec
#
aaronpk see: OAuth 2.0 spec that was eventually renamed to a "framework" because there isn't enough there
#
melvster tantek: fair enough! My goal is to show you running code on top of SoLiD, and for you to say, 'I like that, I want to use it'
#
elf-pavlik folks can you please take it easy with those rants?
#
cwebber2 -q
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry strange
#
aaronpk cwebber2: we lost you at the end
#
tantek melvster - we've had this discussion before - the user stories that are approved are on the wiki
#
cwebber2 I'm done
#
cwebber2 did you lose me entirely?
#
KevinMarks hah
#
tantek and can you demo them with a real world site, e.g. your own personal site, and produce permalinks for all the outputs?
#
tantek otherwise it's all handwaving
#
cwebber2 did you miss my suggestion?
#
melvster yes to all
#
harry q+
#
Zakim sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-28#Next_F2F
#
cwebber2 okay, adjusted proposal, in text:
#
elf-pavlik AnnB++
#
Loqi AnnB has 19 karma
#
KevinMarks AnnB++
#
bblfish q-
#
Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
#
Loqi AnnB has 20 karma
#
cwebber2 why not show the spec, tie it to the user stories, and do demonstrations if useful of what people are asking
#
bblfish AnnB++
#
Loqi AnnB has 21 karma
#
cwebber2 AnnB: how about people show what they want to do whether demo or spec to the agenda
#
cwebber2 tantek: last time that made it bloated, how about we leave it to the chairs
#
cwebber2 ... a ton of things on the agenda
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
#
bblfish I think that's a good thing, we propose what we present, and the chairs decide
#
cwebber2 harry: I'm fine with letting arnaud handle the agenda for the f2f
#
tantek I've updated https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Agenda
#
cwebber2 ... the face to face is useful to the high level demos
#
cwebber2 ... of the specs
#
KevinMarks demos are very clarifying
#
cwebber2 ... we'll use it to solidify the activitypump, micropub things...
#
cwebber2 ... but decisions will happen *afterwards*
#
KevinMarks running code, then rough consensus
#
cwebber2 ... at a teleconf everyone can do
#
cwebber2 sandro: I agree in a sense there
#
cwebber2 ... I don't think the actual decision to pick one as-is
#
cwebber2 ... the agenda is to get everyone to understand the three candidates
#
elf-pavlik sandro+++
#
bblfish sandro++
#
cwebber2 ... so we can make the three candidates make sense
#
Loqi sandro has 10 karma
#
Loqi sandro has 11 karma
#
cwebber2 sandro++
#
Loqi Pelf made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-04-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83747&oldid=0
#
Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83748&oldid=83745
#
Loqi sandro has 12 karma
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: is it fair to say that our previous face to face was a lot of demos
#
bblfish ++ for sandro on having the agenda be that we get to know very well the APIs of each of the proposals
#
cwebber2 ... and anything that we actually come out with will be an actual evolution of one of those apis
#
cwebber2 ... are we at the point where we're convinced that most are implementable?
#
cwebber2 ... so we can hammer out the next version
#
bblfish q+
#
Zakim sees harry, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry ack harry
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 tantek: I think the latter, there's a big difference of opinion for people who are actually doing things running on their sites right now vs someday
#
cwebber2 ... I want you to understand my api proposal vs
#
cwebber2 ... we've built stuff that does this
#
cwebber2 ... disconnect in methodology
#
KevinMarks it's legislation vs documentation as usual
#
harry I feel we are circling a bit
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm a bit concerned about how I'd spend my time as an implementer, I don't like having to track evolving specs
#
harry Basically, it should be obvious - we need a single FPWD relatively soon-ish.
#
cwebber2 ... esp when we're talking about 20, 40 user stories
#
cwebber2 ... rewriting that code seems like asking a lot
#
cwebber2 tantek: I think it's a big challenge to get anything that works
#
cwebber2 ... nobody actually demo'ed a bitg user story
#
cwebber2 ... some demoed more than others
#
cwebber2 ... and some were just tech demos
#
elf-pavlik a lot of input from eprodrom and tantek who chair but will not actually participate in that F2F ...
#
bblfish q?
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
jasnell_ joined the channel
#
cwebber2 ... I don't see how we believe that anyone has built something that can implement all those user stories
#
harry q+
#
Zakim sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... there's no evidence
#
cwebber2 ... that's what people say every 5 years
#
cwebber2 ... you can do anything with my xml, whatever
#
AnnB thinks this is still useful discussion, elf-pavlik .. just like you had useful inputs to the last F2F, even though you weren't there
#
cwebber2 ... and you can't.
#
KevinMarks a universal API - HTML?
#
cwebber2 ... people are saying "you can do this" vs "show me what's owrking"
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 bblfish: I think that the previous chair was saying correctly we have limited time, of course you can say from architecture diagram whether soemthing works or not
jasnell__ joined the channel
#
cwebber2 tantek: diagrams don't make products
#
harry I think tantek is likely right there in the general sense.
#
cwebber2 bblfish: we have major linked data clouds
#
cwebber2 ... deployed by big companies, actual evidence
#
cwebber2 ... eg linked data protocol
#
cwebber2 tantek: you yourself aren't using one
#
elf-pavlik AnnB I don't see eprodrom and tantek on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Remote_Participants
#
wilkie let's just use OStatus. people use that right now lol
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: bblfish, tantek, I'm sorry
#
AnnB eprodrom++
#
cwebber2 bblfish: I'm waiting on what the specs are before I can implement
#
Loqi eprodrom has 13 karma
#
cwebber2 I'm not scribing a squabble
#
harry let's not argue here folks
#
tantek I don't believe architecture diagrams nor claims of wide enterprise deployment
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: we have questions on whether we are doing specs, demos, or both, because we have no consesnsu
#
cwebber2 put on the agenda for next week
#
harry We should do demos and spec reviews with whoever is actually there
#
harry ack harry
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... we do have items on our agenda for today
#
tantek if you have a solution that you think works, run it on your own site. if you can't do that, why should we believe you
#
harry +1 moving on agenda
#
elf-pavlik eprodrom++
#
Loqi eprodrom has 14 karma
#
cwebber2 (well we did agree to specs by monday/tues at least)
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry sorry, no updates from my end, flu had me near death last week
#
cwebber2 ... do we have any updates on open actions or issues
#
eprodrom ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB on mute?
#
cwebber2 bblfish: we all agree we can do it pragmatically
#
harry ok
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: do you have an open issue/action?
#
cwebber2 ... issue 19?
#
eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-21
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-21#Additional_Agenda_Items
#
cwebber2 bblfish: yes, thanks, I put up 19 seems to say that the conslusion was that people should send email
#
cwebber2 email, irc, wiki should work
#
AnnB q+
#
Zakim sees AnnB on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... how do we deal with if emails aren't read?
#
KevinMarks sounds liek a webmention use case to me
#
cwebber2 ... it has not been clear to me how the wiki replaces email
#
melvster harry: could you please review my request to join the group (from about 10 days ago) when you are feeling a bit better :)
#
KevinMarks wiki edits -> irc notifications
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: I think I can address this, that if there are items posted to the email address not addressed, or irc or wiki, we make sure it gets to the right people
#
harry Melvster I notified the chairs that we have some new IE applications. We'll get to it by next meeting.
#
melvster ty!
#
elf-pavlik harry++
#
cwebber2 ... so if someone were to post to the public ML to someone who has not seen it
#
Loqi too much karma!
#
cwebber2 ... makesure they see it
#
cwebber2 bblfish: okay it's not that the wiki is a callback
#
cwebber2 ... the chairs are a fallback
#
cwebber2 heh, callback, sorry
#
cwebber2 ... eg in user stories needed help on way things were going
#
harry I believe those user-story discussions are supposed to be part of the IG, not the WG bblfish
#
cwebber2 ... then we have to go through chairs
#
harry Also, note there is no responsibility of people to agree with each other, although we do aim at consensus.
#
elf-pavlik bblfish we continue with User Stories on github! https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues
jasnell joined the channel
#
cwebber2 harry: we've discussed it, it's fine if people are not reading email
#
jasnell we've spent nearly this entire call discussing process and agenda stuff
#
cwebber2 bblfish: it's in the doc that chairs must participate
#
elf-pavlik bblfish please let's move on with that, you can discuss User Stories via https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues
#
cwebber2 harry: if you want to complain, compalin to wendy seltzer
#
cwebber2 let's not spend time on this please
#
cwebber2 we are running out of time
#
elf-pavlik PROPOSAL: finish issue-19 for today
#
bblfish ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees AnnB on the speaker queue
#
harry We cannot force people to read your emails or respond to you bblfish
#
AnnB https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-21#Coordinating_with_IG
#
rhiaro AnnB++
#
harry I suggest you bring up your user-story to the IG so we can keep this WG meetings productive
#
Loqi AnnB has 22 karma
#
cwebber2 AnnB: I want to support bblfish thought though has been discused a lot
#
elf-pavlik AnnB++
#
cwebber2 ... in the IG we've discussed that people put their wiki username how they like to be communicated with
#
cwebber2 ... so fi you look at the agenda you see how we have preferred contact info
#
cwebber2 ... I had a question because I"m brand new to github, so I'm having fun with it, put stuff there and didn't get responses
jasnell joined the channel
#
cwebber2 ... it's not the same as how you communicate with the whole group, if we see that someone is not part of the thread
#
cwebber2 ... then chairs take action to ping them
#
bblfish ok, thanks
#
cwebber2 ... and gratitude to the chairs for being willing to do that!
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: yes we don't want media to get in the way, we're all committed to making it work
#
cwebber2 ... we do have open issues on activitystreams
#
cwebber2 ... have about 5 minutes left to discuss
#
cwebber2 ... eg issue #31
#
AnnB so -- will y'all go put your contact preferences in your wiki User Name, please?
#
rhiaro issue-31
#
trackbot is looking up issue-31.
#
trackbot issue-31 -- Refactor "target", "origin" and audience targeting properties -- open
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/31
#
cwebber2 ... jasnell, if on call, can clarify?
#
cwebber2 jasnell: this is a 2 part question
#
cwebber2 ... we can split it up if makes it easier
#
elf-pavlik TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0
#
elf-pavlik https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-21#Activity_Streams
#
cwebber2 ... audience targeting make use of to: : bcc:
#
elf-pavlik sorry for wrong link
#
cwebber2 ... this uses target and etc allowing who gets notified
#
eprodrom q+
#
Zakim sees AnnB, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... current system is currently complicated with primary vs secondary audience
#
cwebber2 ... simplify to cc: and bcc:
#
AnnB q-
#
Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 remove to and bto
#
cwebber2 ... first change I'd like to make
#
cwebber2 ... discussion on that
#
cwebber2 ... second one has to do with target property
#
cwebber2 ... which we can have a second convo about
#
cwebber2 ... first about audience targeting
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: as someone who has info on it from a pump.io standpoint
danbri1 joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
cwebber2 ... we use the to and cc pretty consistently
#
cwebber2 ... to: is used if directly sending an activity to a particular person, direct messaging
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: eprodrom (62%), harry (9%), Ann (34%)
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute Ann
#
Zakim Ann should now be muted
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute harry
#
Zakim harry should now be muted
#
cwebber2 ... Cc: is if broadcasting, and should go into the inboxes of them, but not the "it's directly for you and you must see it"
#
cwebber2 ... this comes down to in practice that stuff that is Cc'ed goes to your feed, stuff to you goes to a direct messaging box
#
cwebber2 ... what we'd have here is the cc would have to carry the weight for both
#
cwebber2 ... we may lose the semantic of "it's directly for you"
#
cwebber2 jasnell: ok
#
cwebber2 ... I'm fine with leaving it, my goal is to simplify the vocab as much as possible
#
cwebber2 ... that's really where I'm trying to push it
#
cwebber2 ... so the q is there a way to get the same thing
#
elf-pavlik q+ re: can we leave audience targeting for when we get to federation? (IRC only)
#
Zakim sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 ... with just cc
#
cwebber2 ... a mention object/
#
cwebber2 ?
#
cwebber2 ... is there a way to use just cc but differentiate it
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: so if we use mention, that might do it
#
cwebber2 jasnell: jsut give it some thought, don't need a decision straight away
#
cwebber2 eprodrom: ok great.
#
cwebber2 ... we are at the top of the hour, best to call it
#
Zakim -jasnell
#
Zakim -tantek
#
cwebber2 ... thanks to all for participating, see you next week
#
Zakim -eprodrom
#
eprodrom Thanks all
#
Zakim -rhiaro
#
Zakim - +1.509.375.aadd
#
Zakim -Tsyesika
#
Zakim - +33.6.43.93.aacc
#
Zakim -cwebber2
#
Zakim -elf-pavlik
#
bblfish thanks
#
Zakim -aaronpk
#
wilkie thanks
#
Zakim -wilkie
#
Zakim -harry
#
Zakim -Sandro
#
Zakim - +1.408.335.aaff
#
cwebber2 I don't remember how to end the meeting
#
cwebber2 oh
#
cwebber2 trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot is ending a teleconference.
#
trackbot Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim As of this point the attendees have been +1.514.554.aaaa, Sandro, aaronpk, +1.773.614.aabb, eprodrom, jasnell, elf-pavlik, cwebber2, harry, Tsyesika, tantek, wilkie, Ann,
#
Zakim ... +33.6.43.93.aacc, +1.509.375.aadd, rhiaro, +1.408.335.aaee, +1.408.335.aaff
#
trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent I see no action items
AnnB_ joined the channel
#
Loqi Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-04-21-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83750&oldid=0
#
AnnB_ thanks a lot for good minutes, cwebber2
#
cwebber2 AnnB_: np! :)
#
harry AnnB_, we are trying to figure out what happened last week - sorry for being out with the flu.
#
harry Maria has it in her 'to-do' list for today, and I'll keep hassling her.
#
AnnB_ I know you were out .. no worries.. flu is no fun!
#
AnnB_ I'm surprised Maria is the one who handles that..?
#
tantek what happened last week?
#
tantek the doubling of bots?
#
Zakim disconnecting the lone participant, Ann, in T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
#
Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
#
Zakim ... rhiaro, +1.408.335.aaee, +1.408.335.aaff
#
Zakim Attendees were +1.514.554.aaaa, Sandro, aaronpk, +1.773.614.aabb, eprodrom, jasnell, elf-pavlik, cwebber2, harry, Tsyesika, tantek, wilkie, Ann, +33.6.43.93.aacc, +1.509.375.aadd,
#
tantek Aww AnnB, Zakim hung up on you?
#
Loqi aww
harry joined the channel
#
AnnB_ what happened last week was that Zakim did not get set up for the new IG time
#
AnnB_ they thought it was, but wasn't
#
tantek when is the new IG time?
#
AnnB_ still on Wed, but 1 hour earlier than what it was
#
AnnB_ so now, 8am Pacific
#
AnnB_ (for you and me)
#
tantek oh wow ok
#
tantek no longer conflicting with CSSWG at 9am Pacific
#
AnnB_ we had a doodle .. trying to improve for peeps in Europe
#
AnnB_ unfortunately still totally bad for peeps in Asia .. but no one in Asia responded, so ... darn
#
tantek AnnB, BTW as IG chair, you should feel free to add agenda items directly to the f2f meeting agenda and put your name on them: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Agenda
#
AnnB_ thanks
#
tantek you asked earlier about an agenda
#
AnnB_ I'm not shy, as you know
#
AnnB_ my bigger prob is getting the IG agenda together!
#
tantek and I almost turned that around in the telcon and asked - well, why are you traveling to the meeting? what do you hope to get out of it?
bblfish joined the channel
#
AnnB_ just thinking about that now .. for tomorrow.. aaack
#
elf-pavlik AnnB_ o/
#
elf-pavlik AnnB_ I would like to send out invite for Vocabulary TF telecon tomorrow, does it sound ok with you? I just had chance to catch up with minutes from last week telecon and didn't see anything about this week there
#
harry Yep, am meeting with secretary to debug want went wrong this afternoon. I am really sorry that the telecon went wrong.
#
harry My suspicion was that she did the classic Social WG/IG confusion, but not sure what happened here.
#
harry I'll ping the list as soon as I figure it out.
#
elf-pavlik harry, Jason Haag still doesn't show up on http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72532&public=1 what he should do?
#
harry Yep, we need to get the chairs to approve.
#
elf-pavlik they have parallel work in http://adlnet.gov on extensible vocabulary for xAPI (fork of AS1) and he hopefully will join Vocabulary TF meeting tomorrow
#
elf-pavlik harry, he wants to join IG and AnnB_ already approved his request together with Lynn
#
tantek harry - melvster also mentioned he is waiting for Invited Expert approval - can you check the queue for him?
#
tantek for the WG
#
harry OK, let me check the IG - for the WG we are being a bit more strict as shown on the wiki.
#
elf-pavlik harry http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/socialig/2015-03-31/line/1427829089543
#
elf-pavlik Lynn already shows up on member's page but for some reason Jason doesn't
#
AnnB_ sorry, was outside with some workers .. building a shed for my bike! wOOt!
#
Loqi giggles
#
elf-pavlik BTW Vocab-WG from xAPI will meet again this week on friday and i plan to participate in their bi-weekly meeting
#
AnnB_ haha Loqi, you're the best
#
elf-pavlik they also have Slack and GDrive folder for coordinating that work
AnnB joined the channel
#
AnnB weird... I keep getting dropped
#
AnnB anyway .. elf-pavlik, fine with me if you send out vocab TF for tomorrow
#
AnnB I was struggling with agenda
#
elf-pavlik sending now!
#
AnnB cool beans
#
AnnB I have 2 big work projects, plus I have to move office ... feeling overwhelmed
#
AnnB so that's perfect
#
elf-pavlik AnnB does the Zakim telecon works now 1500UTC ?
#
AnnB they're trying to make sure that it does, elf
#
AnnB (the telecon)
#
elf-pavlik did you have to do something special last week to have VoIP reservation for 1500UTC?
#
AnnB I did nothing. Harry had asked the staff to move the Zakim reservation to the new time .. and everyone thought it was set up
#
AnnB now they're checking
#
AnnB part of the prob was that Harry, coincidentally, was out sick .. so he couldn't help us in real time
#
elf-pavlik ok, in worst case we just jump to different IRC channel and request one time telecon
#
harry Yep, you may have to request a one-time telecon. We still haven't debugged it, it seems from our end it should have worked so its kinda odd.
#
elf-pavlik i'll try to address by tomorrow some of the overlap with Credentials CG and work on OpenBadges happening there, which also stays connected with xAPI developments
#
elf-pavlik http://www.adlnet.gov/tla/experience-api/xapi-cop-directory/xapi-cop-directory-list-view/entry/badges/index.html
#
AnnB you're great elf!
#
AnnB Harry -- how about cancelling it altogether, and then setting it up from scratch?
#
harry That's basically what was done - so the question is why the code didn't work.
#
harry anyways, we'll get you an answer by EOB ET today
#
elf-pavlik thanks harry++
#
elf-pavlik if you could still check if Jason needs to fill out some more forms or do anything else to appear on http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72532&public=1
#
AnnB and, we need to get Larry reinstated
#
AnnB and, also, Jessica doesn't show up in the WG participants list: https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72531
#
AnnB man, all this logistics stuff takes a lot of time, eh?
#
elf-pavlik harry, does system send some notice before removing an invited expert from the group?
#
harry yep, usually.
#
harry Of course, if the person doesn't fill in the IE form they won't be re-instated.
#
harry As they have to re-commit their patent commits
#
AnnB is that the hang-up with any of Jason, Larry or Jessica?
#
elf-pavlik do you know if Tsyesika also got automatically removed from WG? https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72531&public=1
#
AnnB that they need to fill out some forms
#
AnnB I don't think so .. I think she never showed on the list
#
AnnB I'm not clear, actually
#
Tsyesika huh
#
AnnB but rather than try to sort out what happened in the past, let's get it straight now
#
Tsyesika oh yeah for some reason i've never been on that list
#
AnnB but you're on the email list, right?
#
Tsyesika yep
#
elf-pavlik maybe same reason why Jason doesn't show up on list of IG members
#
Tsyesika i am on the mailing list
#
elf-pavlik trackbot status
#
trackbot knows about these 46 users: Ann, Reuben, Adam, John, Mark, Tantek, Bret, wilkie, Pavlik, Laurent Walter, Amy, Harry, Sandro, DUK KI, Shane, Renato, Jonathan, Paul Changjin, Geun Hyung, Jaakko, Andreas, Arnaud, Hyejin, Randall, Bill, Fabio Luciano, Alexandre, Aaron, Evan, Benjamin, Jason, Dan, Doug, Wendy, Owen, Hyunjin, dave, James, Eric, Henry, James, Claudio, Christopher, XIAOHAI, Erik, Benjamin
#
elf-pavlik Tsyesika I don't see you on list above
#
Tsyesika hm not sure
#
elf-pavlik Tsyesika what do you see when you go to https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72531/join (and authenticate)
#
Tsyesika I don't know what the process is that gets somene on that list, it was evan who vouched for me as an invited expert and he mentioned in one early meeting when i became part of the WG
#
harry The WG IE process is on the wiki
#
Tsyesika hm it says "I, Jessica Tallon, as W3C Invited Expert," then a bunch of checkboxes and then accept at the bottom
#
harry The IG process is chair's discretion
#
elf-pavlik Tsyesika looks like you need to fill out this form choosing Social Web charter something radio box :S
#
Tsyesika hm
#
Tsyesika oh at the top i somehow missed it, it says "Only AC Representative, selected Invited Experts and Staff Contacts can use this form to join or leave a group ; since you're not logged as any of those, you won't be allowed to submit this form. Additional instructions for joining this group are available."
#
Tsyesika strange
#
elf-pavlik harry ^ ?
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72531/join
#
harry Tysika, that's the wrong form.
#
Tsyesika oh i see
#
harry Again, this is all spelled out on web-page:
#
harry https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/ieapp/
#
Tsyesika looks
#
Tsyesika i've already filled that in
#
harry I'm happy to double-check database.
#
elf-pavlik harry when i go to https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72531/join i see "Already participating in the Social Web Working Group"
#
harry OK folks, this is not super-hard to understand.
#
harry When you fill out the IE form, if you are accepted you shouldn't fill it out again.
#
harry If you are not accepted yet, it's probably because the chairs haven't approved.
#
harry Most likely because we haven't had a chairs meeting in a while
#
harry If you *are* approved, then you should get an email.
#
harry If you think you've been approved but aren't sure, I'm happy to double-check database.
#
Tsyesika well i know i filled that in and evan did say i had been approved
#
harry I'll look for you in a few minutes Tsyesika, I'm in another f2f meeting now
#
Tsyesika okay no problem
#
Tsyesika thanks harry
#
Tsyesika i shall look for my IRC logs to see what evan said
#
elf-pavlik harry, Lynn after getting approval to IG received email with subject "Follow up on your W3C Invited Expert application" and link to https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72532/join
#
harry I'm pretty sure you are approved, sometimes the database is not updated,
#
harry Re Lynn, maybe he didn't fill out patent commits properly, go figure.
#
elf-pavlik i see in forward of that email: "Cc: team-ie-process@w3.org, hhalpin@w3.org"
#
elf-pavlik I all worked out for Lynn, but she received email with link to form which you just called 'wrong'
#
elf-pavlik IG - https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72532/join , WG https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72531/join
#
elf-pavlik From: <sysbot+ipp@w3.org> Date: Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 2:10 PM Subject: Follow up on your W3C Invited Expert application To: foster.j.lynn@gmail.com Cc: team-ie-process@w3.org, hhalpin@w3.org
#
elf-pavlik harry it looks like you get copy of all the emails going out to people who got approval as Invited Expert
#
Tsyesika okay by the way it was said in https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-07-minutes
#
Tsyesika one of the first things evan said
#
harry Yes, I do get copies. I am not sure why Lynn got the wrong form - there should be a button that asks if you work for a W3C member company or not.
#
Tsyesika "<evanpro> Tsyesika: we just added you as an IE so you're welcome to join the call. "
#
harry its possible the wrong button was clicked in the form, again, happy to check the database, but it is odd she got a link to the wrong form in email.
#
elf-pavlik Tsyesika did you get email from sysbot+ipp@w3.org with subject: "Follow up on your W3C Invited Expert application" ?
#
harry [just hold on folks, debugging - sending me tons of IRC messages is not going to make this faster, but slower]
#
harry Tsyekia, what is your W3C username?
#
Tsyesika Tsyesika
#
Tsyesika errr, lowercast actually i think
#
Tsyesika elf-pavlik: don't think so
#
elf-pavlik harry, you should have this email in you inbox as well since it has you in cc, even more "Regards, Harry Halpin <hhalpin@w3.org>"
#
elf-pavlik Tsyesika did you search you mailbox for it?
#
elf-pavlik from: sysbot+ipp@w3.org subject: "Follow up on your W3C Invited Expert application"
#
Tsyesika i did but i did loose some mail late last year so it's possible i don't have it unfortunately
#
Tsyesika i did recover most of them though
#
elf-pavlik ha.ry must have all the copies since he gets crazy amount of cc @|@
#
Tsyesika well, we'll see what turns up when harry can search the db
#
Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
#
harry ok, just finished IG investigation - see email, Zakim should work tomorrow for the vocabulary TF
#
harry [now looking up Tsyesika]
#
harry tyesika, you still there?
#
harry According to the database, you are a full-fledged IE in the WG and IG
#
Tsyesika i'm here
#
Tsyesika sounds good
#
harry OK, I've double-checked and just re-iniated the process just in case
#
harry So you'll get a new email that says you are a member of the WG and IG
#
harry If you could double-check to make sure you can edit the wiki (that's a good test) that would be grand. Maybe give us 30 minutes for the reset to propagate.
#
Tsyesika :) thanks!
#
Tsyesika i shall test in 30 minutes
#
harry Again, sorry - sometimes things can be a bit clunky at W3.org, our underlying tooling is from the 90s.
#
harry However, we are working on upgrading:
#
Tsyesika is it any pages in paticular? or can i just edit my user page?
#
harry http://w3c.github.io/modern-tooling/
#
harry Check both editing capabilities on www.w3.org/Social/WG and /Social/IG
#
harry try to edit the main homepage
#
harry [now checking Lynn]
#
elf-pavlik https://twitter.com/poulpita/status/590164327933603840
#
Loqi @poulpita :: [clapclap] amazed by the work presented by @robinberjon related to @W3C modern tooling (yess modern tooling !) http://w3c.github.io/modern-tooling/ #bravo
#
Tsyesika okay will do
#
elf-pavlik harry all fine with Lynn, please see Jason Haag
#
elf-pavlik they just both got approved at the same time and while Lynn shows up on members page Jason not
#
elf-pavlik same with list of people in IG tracker
#
harry OK, double-checking Haag
#
elf-pavlik thx!
#
harry So, what was the issue with Lynn?
#
harry You kept sending me emails about it
#
elf-pavlik i sent it to you so you see what she received after you and Ann approved both requests
#
harry According to the database, Haag is fine for the IG
#
elf-pavlik harry, he doesn't show up on list of members and in IG tracker
#
elf-pavlik and i have no clue how many databases W3C uses ;)
#
elf-pavlik no 'Jason' on http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72532&public=1
#
harry They just haven't filled out the IP form.
#
harry I would assume.
#
elf-pavlik no 'Jason' on https://www.w3.org/Social/InterestGroup/track/
#
elf-pavlik can you give me link to that IP form?
#
harry I'll talk to them directly rather than have you continually bombard elf, OK?
#
elf-pavlik harry sure
#
harry Again, the form is here: https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72532/join
#
harry IF you are approved, you should be able to fill it out.
#
elf-pavlik jhaag [10:36 PM] option for me to accept jhaag [10:38 PM] but the accept button is disabled and I can't check the boxes
#
harry Now, if people have multiple username or password issues, they need to use the username/password they registered with
#
harry Well, he's probably not logged in or using wrong username.
#
elf-pavlik can i invite him here?
#
harry I've just sent him an email saying that he has to login.
#
harry That's fine, but Im going offline in about 15 minutes
#
harry Anyways, email to remind him to login in sent, you were cc'ed.
#
harry My guess would be he forgot to login
#
elf-pavlik without login this page doesn't even show up
#
elf-pavlik try in incognito window yourself https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/72532/join
#
elf-pavlik so he must have logged in to see form he can't submit
#
ben_thatmustbeme sorry i missed the meeting today guys
#
ben_thatmustbeme and gals
#
elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme we pretty much just spoken a lot about next F2F
#
ben_thatmustbeme in the hospital with my wife (she is having contractions at 32 weeks)
#
elf-pavlik and than issue-19 striked back ;)
#
ben_thatmustbeme i knew it would
#
ben_thatmustbeme i saw the email
#
ben_thatmustbeme waste of time
#
elf-pavlik i hope they doing fine!
#
ben_thatmustbeme yes, the babies look to be staying in... hopefully for another 2 weeks
#
elf-pavlik babies++
#
ben_thatmustbeme at least
#
Loqi babies has 3 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme 3 karma?
#
harry Yep, IMHO I think people need to stop wasting time in telecons and discuss technical issues.
#
ben_thatmustbeme interesting
#
tantek harry - should we have rejected issue 19 because it was non-technical?
#
tantek we (as chairs)
#
harry No, I think our closure is fine. We have multiple channels, like most other WGs.
#
harry The underlying issue is that bblfish I think is claiming he can't communicate to you and is upset people aren't reading his emails.
danbri joined the channel
#
harry Of course, I'm sure quite a few people are simply going TL;DR to some of his emails or just autodelete some people.
#
harry I mean, its impolite and I don't encourage it, but we can't use process or an issue to force people to pay attention to each other.
JasonHaag joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme harry, i saw your response email, i think you are pretty on target, especially since (a) this all started because henry wanted to argue over a user story that has only a single +1 vote (his) and (b) it seems that throwing a link in to the agenda seems to be a good way to bring up important things to the group
#
harry Looking though the database even more for Haag, it seems the problem is that Haag has multiple user-names
#
harry At some point we should clean this up, but in the meantime I'll just make sure all usernames have the same access level.
#
elf-pavlik tantek can you join next IG Use Case telecon on May 6th 1500UTC?
#
JasonHaag thanks Harry
#
elf-pavlik Hi JasonHaag :)
#
tantek unfortunately no elf-pavlik
#
harry JasonHaag, what is your username that you actually use?
#
JasonHaag what are the usernames?
#
harry We have two Haag's in our database
#
harry So, when you login there should be a username/password somewhere asked for
danbri1 joined the channel
#
JasonHaag ok I accepted
#
JasonHaag not sure which one of me that might in your system, but that's the one I used to login just now
#
tantek harry: more to the point re: issue-19, is that I've given up on having email discussion with those that claim architecture etc. but don't actually build any of it on their own site.
#
elf-pavlik harry, JasonHaag it worked \o/ http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72532&public=1
#
harry ok, haag - we may still have problems with the two accounts, so when you figure out which username you are using email us and we'll see if we can delete the old account.
#
tantek it's just a waste of time at best, and a DoPA at worst: http://tantek.com/w/DenialOfProductivityAttack
#
harry I think you've made that clear on the phone Tantek so I think maybe bblfish will just have to learn that you two have disagreements. That's fine, as long as they don't lead to blocking progress on the spec, which I don't see this disagreement doing.
#
tantek right
#
elf-pavlik JasonHaag, thanks for dropping by and see you tomorrow at #socialig during Vocabulary TF meeting! BTW I'll read http://imsglobal.org/pressreleases/pr150421.html since it also got mentioned today by Nate Otto on Credentials CG call...
#
harry OK, do we have any other invited experts we know of that aren't showing up?
#
harry [I'm double-checking emails now]
#
elf-pavlik tantek you work with Mozilla :D ^ "IMS partners with Mozilla Foundation to accelerate adoption and interoperability of badges in the education and workforce sectors."
#
aaronpk !tell AnnB Loqi reports wiki edits to the IRC channel!
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
elf-pavlik harry, what about Tibor? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Applied_for_Membership
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/invited-experts says [ Tibor Katelbach] - vouched for by Arnaud
#
harry ok, will check on Tibor
#
elf-pavlik I remember he joined two of very early telecons and Arnaud asked him to leave since he didn't have membership
#
elf-pavlik also lately they released beta of http://www.pixelhumain.com/
danbri joined the channel
#
Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83763&oldid=83726
#
Loqi Tsyesika made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83764&oldid=83763
#
elf-pavlik harry maybe Tsyesika also just needs to submit such IP form as Jason did?
#
harry possible, Tyesika, check email
#
Tsyesika yep i got the email
#
elf-pavlik with link to a form?
#
Tsyesika yep
#
Tsyesika accepted now since i had already read though all the forms when i applied
#
Tsyesika err charters
#
elf-pavlik same link as i posted here? http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-04-21/line/1429646658990
#
Tsyesika elf-pavlik: seems i'm on http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72531&public=1 :)
#
Tsyesika elf-pavlik: yep, same link
#
elf-pavlik well, no clue what worked differently now...
#
elf-pavlik trackbot status
#
trackbot knows about these 47 users: Ann, Reuben, Adam, John, Mark, Tantek, Bret, wilkie, Pavlik, Laurent Walter, Amy, Harry, Sandro, DUK KI, Shane, Renato, Jonathan, Paul Changjin, Geun Hyung, Jaakko, Andreas, Arnaud, Hyejin, Randall, Bill, Fabio Luciano, Alexandre, Aaron, Evan, Benjamin, Jason, Dan, Doug, Wendy, Owen, Hyunjin, dave, James, Eric, Henry, Jessica, James, Claudio, Christopher, XIAOHAI, Erik, Benjamin
#
harry Tsyesika, did you accept? If so, you should be join.
#
Tsyesika i accepted both yep
#
elf-pavlik all worked out just fine this time :D
#
Tsyesika I'm on the list of members too
#
harry great
the_frey joined the channel
#
harry ok, Tibor has a 6 month invite
#
harry I remember that there was pushback from Tantek and others on his case given his software didn't exist at the time, but Arnaud wanted him approved and vouched for him, so I guess that is enough.
#
tantek harry - the fear was that he there wasn't any actual implementation / selfdogfooding
#
harry Yes, I think that may still be the case
#
tantek and thus might add to the "architecture" centric discussions
#
tantek rather than being implementation centric
#
tantek we already have too much architecture centric noise
#
harry Yep. In general 'magic architecture' discussions should be avoided.
#
tantek and it distracts from being pragmatic (using what already works today)
#
harry However, I think we should just get a FPWD we can all live with and evolve it with the code.
#
harry I hope to get to that point after the Paris F2F
#
tantek I mean for the group as a whole
#
tantek these past two telcons are big contrast
#
tantek last telcon we got numerous technical issues for AS2 resolvd
#
tantek this time, only resolutions were approving previous minutes
#
harry yep, which is why I want to keep ISSUE-19 closed
#
tantek approving non-builder non-selfdogfooding invited experts will only hurt group productivity
#
harry It just leads to arguments that take up the valuable telecon time.
#
elf-pavlik tantek we can try next time to time how much people speak, today you took quite some time to talk about next F2F
#
harry Yes, we should probably think of setting time-limits, the F2F discussion was rather pointless.
#
tantek yes elf-pavlik apologies that part was my fault for sure
#
harry I just wanted people not to be worried that we were going to make a decision at the F2F without them :)
#
tantek it was an attempt to focus the f2f on pragmatic discussions not architecture discussions
#
elf-pavlik good ping harry
#
elf-pavlik s/ping/point/
#
tantek but perhaps that is hopeless
#
tantek and I shouldn't even try
#
harry I agree that we should aim at pragmatic discussions.
#
harry We will have an architecture-heavy group showing up, but also some people at the AC we want to get involved.
#
tantek that's not going to make a good impression on other AC people
#
harry Anyways, I think we should have a chairs meeting with Arnaud to go over a draft agenda next week.
#
harry Before folks fly off, and the WG can then review the agenda in detail - the current agenda is a bit vague.
#
harry [off to fix minutes from last f2f]
#
elf-pavlik harry++
#
Loqi harry has 10 karma
#
elf-pavlik tantek I'll go to IndieWebCamp in Dusseldorf after Paris
#
tantek harry - both focusing on pragmatic discussions and building a specific agenda requires *strong* chairing
#
tantek otherwise people just blather on about whatever they queue up for
#
elf-pavlik I will most likely focus on JSON-LD serialization for microformats and will have chance to discuss with rhiaro https://github.com/rhiaro/mf2rdf
#
tantek elf-pavlik: good there should be a lot of builders at IWC Düsseldorf
#
harry well, I'm more than happy to give chairs the 'mute' button
#
tantek anyway we'll see - I'm terribly optimistic about the f2f
#
tantek but we'll see
#
elf-pavlik tantek do you see any issue with using this prefix - https://github.com/rhiaro/mf2rdf/blob/master/microformats2.owl#L1
#
tantek mf2 is a common abbreviation for microformats2
#
tantek used in libraries etc.
#
elf-pavlik i mean the URI it maps to :)
#
elf-pavlik we could also use something for XFN https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Vocabulary_TF#XFN
#
elf-pavlik http://prefix.cc/mf2
#
aaronpk elf-pavlik: http://microformats.org/terms is 404, why would you use that?
#
tantek elf-pavlik: XFN URLs are already defined on gmpg.org
#
tantek why do you want to map to another URL?
#
elf-pavlik http://prefix.cc/xfn
#
rhiaro aaronpk: the url mf2 maps to should resolve to the ontology, either the owl file directly or a human readable version
#
elf-pavlik i don't just didn' know it already has prefix
#
tantek it doesn't have prefixes, just URLs
#
rhiaro /terms was a placeholder
#
elf-pavlik added it to IG Vocabulary TF page
#
rhiaro previously I used /profile which was what tommorris used on the RDF page in the microformats wiki, but after a brief disucssion with tantek I agreed that this url didn't particularly make sense (even though it's still a placeholder)
#
tantek tommorris is the right resource to ask, but on # microformats on freenode
#
elf-pavlik tantek @prefix xfn: <http://gmpg.org/xfn/11#> . :)
#
elf-pavlik curl http://gmpg.org/xfn/11
bblfish joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik rhiaro same prefix used in JSON-LD spec http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats
#
rhiaro elf-pavlik: ah that would explain it
#
rhiaro either way, that didn't resolve either last time I checked
#
elf-pavlik some do http://microformats.org/profile/hcard
#
rhiaro oh, so I see
#
rhiaro cool
#
rhiaro be good to do the same for mf2
#
aaronpk would this work? http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
#
aaronpk that's the canonical page for h-entry
#
elf-pavlik @prefix mf2: <http://microformats.org/wiki/> .
#
elf-pavlik why not? :)
#
rhiaro sure
#
rhiaro they don't all resolve like that though
#
aaronpk they don't?
#
rhiaro p- and u- and e- mostly don't have their own pages
#
aaronpk you need them to?
#
rhiaro in order to use microformats.org/wiki/ as the base, yeh
#
aaronpk all the h- ones do http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
#
rhiaro also it would be extra good if they could also return rdf... since it's an rdf ontology, that rdf people would want to use.. :p
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#compact-iris
#
aaronpk this seems complicated
#
elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/TR/curie/
#
rhiaro aaronpk: the idea is just to give a definitive URL to each term in a vocabulary
#
rhiaro ideally the URL would resolve to some useful documentation about the term
#
rhiaro that's all
#
rhiaro ideally ideally it would return html for a human and something machine readable like rdf to a machine
#
aaronpk might be worth asking in #microformats on freenode about whether a wiki page for individual property names would be a useful thing for people
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk we talk about machines not only people
#
aaronpk emphasis on human benefits first
#
elf-pavlik machines can do more without my supervision -> my benefit :)
#
rhiaro what we're talking about is an rdf ontology, and anyone wanting to use that would find use for machine readable versions of terms. I only made it to play, I'm not that invested, but if anyone wants to use it properly it should be set up this way
#
elf-pavlik anyways, URL can return 404 and people can still use it as unique identifier
#
rhiaro connegging version is at http://vocab.amy.so/mf2 at the moment
#
elf-pavlik this way we don't end up with "do i have to register *micropub* with IANA or microformats"
#
rhiaro ooorrr not
#
rhiaro sometimes vocab.amy.so breaks :p
AnnB joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik rhiaro maybe let's just use @prefix mf2: <http://microformats.org/wiki/> .
#
elf-pavlik and everyone who needs missing page can add it :)
#
elf-pavlik we could also maybe just add to the wiki <link rel=alternate type="application/ld+json" /> and <link rel=alternate type="text/turtle" />
#
elf-pavlik and till server logs show enough requests trying to negotiate for that content type, it should work well enough
the_frey joined the channel
#
rhiaro elf-pavlik: sure
#
rhiaro good compromise
the_frey and cwebber2` joined the channel
#
aaronpk bblfish: you seem to be describing a reader!
#
aaronpk kylewm: does woodwind allow you to filter a feed by tags now?
#
kylewm aaronpk: it lets you tag feeds themselves and only view feeds with certain tags. it doesn't parse out tags on individual posts, but that would be cool
#
aaronpk ah okay! that was one of the first things I added to monocle
#
aaronpk if you did that, you could follow people's blogs here looking for only certain keywords
#
aaronpk AnnB: in reply to your question, see http://indiewebcamp.com/FAQ#How_do_you_figure_stuff_out
#
AnnB thanks, aaronpk!
#
Loqi AnnB: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 57 minutes ago: Loqi reports wiki edits to the IRC channel! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-04-21/line/1429650668051
#
AnnB it seems to me that IRC is a pretty good discussion mode
#
AnnB and you guys have developed some useful tools with loqi ... tell! and the logs .. and not sure if there's more
#
aaronpk Loqi does a neat trick in the #indiewebcamp channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-19/line/1429470080559
#
AnnB my concern was that A) I don't feel like we truly ever figured out how to discuss stuff; and B) wikis don't seem to me to be the right tool for discussion
#
AnnB (and we were being pointed at wikis for that)
#
aaronpk we've had a great experience with discussion happening in IRC and then flowing to the wiki
#
aaronpk the wiki is good for capturing summaries of conversations
#
AnnB yes -- collaborative capturing .. that's what it's good for
#
AnnB (sounds like cannibals on the loose)
#
AnnB that link you put .. is it search in IRC or some such?
#
aaronpk and Loqi is reporting edits to socialwg pages to the IRC channel, so you can always follow this channel instead of the full recentchanges w3c wiki
#
AnnB oh, I see
#
AnnB yes, we have that here, right? I do find that valuable .. it makes it very clear who's editing the wiki .. and with link if one wants to go read
#
aaronpk yep!
#
AnnB all of these tools really improve the utility of IRC as a collaboration tool
#
AnnB thanks for pointing those out
#
AnnB I'm eager to learn more, but HAVE to go work on somethign else
#
aaronpk the link I sent you is from the indiewebcamp IRC logs http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
#
AnnB I'm heavily involved in organizing a hackathon in our 737 factory
#
AnnB too darn bad all you hot dogs can't participate!
#
AnnB unfortunately I'll be in Paris
#
AnnB waaaa
#
aaronpk is there a list of members of the socialwg on the wiki somewhere?
#
bblfish hi
#
aaronpk hello!
#
aaronpk it sounds like you're basically describing a reader!
#
aaronpk check out http://reader.kylewm.com and http://monocle.p3k.io for two examples!
#
bblfish yes @aaronpk I am just saying how we can get us to all use well known readers
#
aaronpk kylewm's consumes atom and rss, mine only consumes microformats right now
#
aaronpk but both can subscribe to a pubsubhubbub feed and get realtime updates with no polling! it's pretty neat
#
aaronpk i was looking for a list of the socialwg members so I can add them all to a list in my reader
#
bblfish yes, we don't have that list. That is why I am proposing we can have a foaf:Group published on the W3C Social Web WG web site.
#
rhiaro aaronpk: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72531&public=1
#
rhiaro contact details version is behind login though
#
aaronpk rhiaro++
#
Loqi rhiaro has 57 karma
#
aaronpk it'd be great if that public list would link to people's websites
#
bblfish yes, so it needs a foaf:Group version of the above
#
aaronpk the logged-in view doesn't have website either
#
rhiaro relatedly, I wrote an irc bot the other day that grabbed people's urls from their nick via indiewebcamp irc-people page
#
rhiaro from the microformats
#
KevinMarks you can subscribe to an rss/atom feed in monocle by using unmung.com to htmlify it
#
rhiaro KevinMarks: that's handy
#
aaronpk KevinMarks: oh yeah thanks
#
KevinMarks (if you start doing that I should make it cache more)
#
aaronpk oh right we totally have a list https://www.w3.org/wiki/Irc-people
#
aaronpk although that list isn't technically scoped to the socialwg
#
aaronpk and here is everyone's URLs as a JSON list http://mf2.dev/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fwiki%2FIrc-people
#
aaronpk ack sorry bad URL: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fwiki%2FIrc-people
#
bblfish microformat is not a standard
#
bblfish we need to have standard tools to start off with
#
bblfish otherwise we leave off people like AnnB
#
aaronpk wait what?
#
bblfish well we all need to be able to use the reader of our choice. Atom is a well define format and so is foaf, which is accepted by the w3c
#
aaronpk well that wiki page is machine-readable
#
aaronpk and has everyone's personal website URLs
#
bblfish it has to be standard
#
bblfish existing standards
#
aaronpk http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
#
bblfish widely deployed ones
#
AnnB how does this leave me out?
#
bblfish don't know that microformats is a standard
#
bblfish well if you want to use off the shelf tools you have can't be writing a microformat parser to read a blog
#
AnnB and seems to me, bblfish, -- albeit, me the avowed novice -- that microformats are widely used
#
aaronpk you don't have to write a microformat parser, there are plenty
#
AnnB be open, bblfish
#
bblfish yes, not well defined though
#
AnnB this whole convo is driving me nuts
#
aaronpk that's not true anymore
#
bblfish I don't have a microformat parser
#
aaronpk http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Parsers
#
AnnB mostly cuz I have to do other, unrelated work
#
aaronpk javascript, php, ruby and python, so most of your bases are covered
#
bblfish I use java
#
bblfish and scala
#
bblfish and the question is it has to be well established
#
aaronpk the microformats-2 parsing rules are very well established
#
bblfish microformats 2 is just a spec in the making no?
#
aaronpk no
#
bblfish which standard body has adopted it?
#
aaronpk the specific vocabs are somewhat in flux, depending on the object type
#
aaronpk but the parsing is well defined
#
aaronpk anyway you're missing my entire point
#
aaronpk at the beginning I said "kylewm's [reader] consumes atom and rss"
#
rhiaro takes two seconds to set up indieauth so you can sign into Monocle or Woodwind and use that as a reader of sites that publish microformats
#
bblfish I look for W3C or IETF standards. I don't htink microformats is one of them
#
aaronpk W3C drafts can normatively reference microformats
#
AnnB bblfish, I don't think it's useful to hold out for FORMAL standards
#
aaronpk which again is not even what i am saying
#
AnnB there is also stuff that's widely used
#
bblfish why, since we have some that work
#
rhiaro is foaf actually a w3c standard? a bunch of the terms have been listed as 'testing' for years
#
bblfish foaf is actuall referenced widely in a number of w3c standards
#
aaronpk i'm saying "here is a list of people's URLs" in a machine-readable format (JSON even!) http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fwiki%2FIrc-people
#
aaronpk now go add those URLs to a reader which consumes Atom, RSS and Microformats
#
bblfish and RDF is used globally by large corporations and small ones
#
AnnB has to leave in order not to read ... be kind, be open
#
aaronpk and all of a sudden we're done!
#
aaronpk basically i'm saying most of this work you described is already done, which is great!
#
rhiaro bblfish: a lot of people's urls on that list already publish rss or atom
#
bblfish Hey AnnB I don't feel like writing just another parser, because another group decides it wants to make yet another syntax
#
rhiaro so that first post of getting a machine readable list together is passed
#
bblfish yes, so RSS and Atom is ok
#
aaronpk bblfish: for people who only publish microformats, you can use a proxy that converts that back to Atom
#
bblfish ok, so just point your blog to the proxy
#
bblfish not that difficult to do
#
aaronpk https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/?url=http://aaronparecki.com/articles
#
bblfish We already have way too many formats all doing the same thing
#
bblfish it's just jobs for the boys
#
KevinMarks roundtrip: http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2Fservices%2Fmicroformats-to-atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Farticles
#
bblfish say we agree to microformats, then someone is going to come along and invent another one
#
aaronpk btw I notice you already publish your phone number and email on your website, if you add "me" to the rel values on those you can sign in to monocle.p3k.io and reader.kylewm.com right now and try them out!
#
bblfish does microformats 2 map to RDF?
#
KevinMarks does JSON map to RDF?
#
bblfish JSON-LD does
#
bblfish not really interested in JSON, it does not solve the distributed social web problem
#
aaronpk i agree, that's why i consume and publish HTML
#
KevinMarks exactly
#
bblfish yes, and for that there is RDFa that is a standard
#
bblfish W3C standard. I have parsers for that
#
rhiaro bblfish: from my blog you can get turtle or html via conneg
#
KevinMarks so you can use GRDDL then
#
bblfish cool
#
rhiaro s/html/html+microformats
#
rhiaro they don't conflict
#
bblfish do you have a GRDDL for microformats 2 or 1 ?
#
bblfish does it work for HTML5?
#
bblfish I am fine with Conneg if you can give me an established RDF format.
#
bblfish I am also ok with established XML format like Atom - just about.
#
KevinMarks no idea GRDDL was harry's thing
#
bblfish GRDDL is a very good idea, but has not been used widely. And as specified I think it is really meant for XML, which is out
#
bblfish nowadays.
#
bblfish in any case I was just trying to get something going easily. Foaf is 11 years old, and so is RSS
#
KevinMarks looks like only grddl's for hCalendar, hCard and vote links were found: http://microformats.org/wiki/grddl
#
KevinMarks we have thinsg already going
#
aaronpk bblfish: I just laid it out for you, seems pretty straightforward
#
aaronpk also most of the work is already done
#
aaronpk in fact I may even demo this at the f2f ;)
#
bblfish yes, but I don't know why you bother with microformats when there is rdfa allready
#
bblfish it clashes with rdfa
#
bblfish and it is unlikely that either of them will ever really work well
#
rhiaro elf has used microformats and rdfa together I believe
#
bblfish because it is forcing two types of people to work together: html designers and data people
#
bblfish elf has a lot of time.
#
bblfish I'd rather read philosophy that just write parsers for the sake of it
#
bblfish there are more interesting things in life to do
#
aaronpk i agree, which is why i didn't write a parser
#
aaronpk barnaby did, and now i along with everyone else who's writing php indieweb consumers is using it
#
bblfish could be, but the indieweb community is tiny compared ot the linked data one
#
bblfish http://lod-cloud.net
#
bblfish Sorry to say that
#
bblfish one builds on pretty serious logical foundations, the other is just hackish attempts to produce machine readable markup
#
aaronpk that's cool, are any of those personal blogs or other "social" things?
#
bblfish yes foaf
#
KevinMarks RDFa was an attempt to copy microformats
#
aaronpk "The dataset must contain at least 1000 triples. (Hence, your FOAF file most likely does not qualify.)"
#
KevinMarks but it missed the simplicity part
#
aaronpk but are there any *blogs* or other short-form text posts like twitter posts?
#
bblfish As I said I don't think that marking up html in rdfa or microformats is a good idea anyway
#
aaronpk large datasets of "serious logical foundations" doesn't sound very *social* to me, which is what this WG is for
#
bblfish you're mixing the role of the person doing html and the person doing data
#
bblfish that's because you don't know much about logic aaronpk
#
KevinMarks treating HTML as a write only medium was the original mistake
#
bblfish logic is the very foundation of discussion
#
aaronpk bblfish: that sounds like a personal attack, unless you forgot a ;)
#
aaronpk it's hard to tell in text communications
#
KevinMarks while the RDF community went away trying to architect markup of data without HTML, Google just read all the HTML and derived meaning from ti at scale