2015-05-26 UTC
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# 15:48 melvster i think there's fundamental confusion about identity in that group # 15:59 jasnell looking at your as2 output again, there are a couple of issues # 16:00 jasnell (1) your top level is an array.. it need to be a collection object # 16:00 jasnell also, since you're using the full text of each post, you should use "content" instead of "summary" # 16:01 cwebber2 jasnell: yes, I "should", though technically in this case it wasn't my *script* that was wrong # 16:02 cwebber2 the atom stream generated by Pelican uses atom:summary # 16:02 cwebber2 jasnell: I'll add a cleanup round to my own site, though I'd like to have this script correctly interpret the atom feed # 16:02 jasnell last... using "title" is ok, but if the titles are guaranteed to not have any markup, using "displayName" would be preferred # 16:03 jasnell title and displayName are basically equivalent except that title allows markup while displayName does not # 16:03 cwebber2 jasnell: ok, I'll switch it... I'm not sure if atom:title allows for markup or not # 16:04 cwebber2 luckily the sxml-match thing makes distinguishing between those eeeeeaasy # 16:04 jasnell if type="text", use displayName, if type="html" or type="xhtml", use title # 16:07 cwebber2 jasnell: at the moment I'm converting the whole activitystreams vocabulary into classes # 16:07 cwebber2 in guile's GOOPS object oriented system, as an exercise # 16:08 cwebber2 I understood it before, but I think I'm understanding it better now # 16:08 cwebber2 plus, it'll be fun to have a little scheme library for building up AS docs # 16:10 cwebber2 I was talking to her about half an hour ago and she was trying to get back, she had been rained in at a cafe # 16:14 jasnell looking at the first example, I see a couple of things that need to be clarified # 16:15 jasnell most important, the distinction between the Object and the Activity # 16:15 jasnell e.g., your statement "There has been a bit of discussion about whether things like audience targeting (to) would be better off attached to the object rather than the activity; I'm inclined to think there's no metadata related to the creating of an object that can't/shouldn't be attached to the object itself, rendering the activity redundant. I keep asking people of examples that contradict this, but so far nobody has given me one." # 16:16 jasnell there is a subtle but important difference that is based on point of view # 16:16 jasnell neither point of view is "more correct" than the other, they're just different and equally valid # 16:17 jasnell consider the two sentences "this article was written by rhiaro" vs. "rhiaro posted an article" # 16:17 rhiaro yeah, I deliberately merged them for that post to see what it would look/feel like, and to provoke feedback # 16:17 jasnell depending on the article, these can be equivalent statements # 16:17 jasnell but, by the same token, they can be very very different the_frey joined the channel
# 16:19 jasnell when I use the form {"@type ":"Post", "actor": "http://example/rhiaro", "object": {"@type ": "Article", ...} }, I'm talking about two separate things: The Article, and the Activity of Posting the Article # 16:19 jasnell for instance, you may have written the article a week ago but only posted it today # 16:19 elf-pavlik cwebber2, re: "I'm converting the whole activitystreams vocabulary into classes" will instances still suport use of any properties - not defined in AS2 vocab but via extensions? # 16:20 jasnell the article may have it's own intended audience, but the statement "rhiaro posted this article" might be directed at a *different* audience than who the article was originally targeted at tantek joined the channel
# 16:20 jasnell and it could be that the article wasn't even written by the same person who posted it # 16:21 cwebber2 or can you start tacking on extensions onto an instance of that class that aren't explicitly defined as being properties of it # 16:21 tantek good morning #social! telcon in 40 minutes :) # 16:21 tantek I find delegation works better than subclassing. # 16:21 tantek jasnell - someone posting an article they didn't write is a bookmark # 16:22 elf-pavlik "In Linked Data, properties are, just as everything else, identified by IRIs and thus have global scope which implies that they have independent semantics. In contrast, properties in data models as used in common programming languages are class-dependent. Their semantics depend on the class they belong to. In data models classes are typically described by the properties they expose whereas in Linked Data properties define to which classes they belong # 16:22 elf-pavlik . If no class is specified, it is assumed that a property may apply to every class." # 16:22 tantek elf-pavlik: I keep hearing hydra but not seeing anyone deploy it on their personal site # 16:22 cwebber2 tantek: I was asking elf-pavlik and jasnell what the official AS2 position is on it ;) # 16:22 jasnell rhiaro: the point is, each Activity is it's own distinct object, with it's own sets of properties that are independent of the Object of the activity # 16:22 cwebber2 I'm messing around with implementing a library for AS2 modification # 16:22 tantek why take a position on something theoretical? since it doesn't have a concrete position itself. # 16:23 tantek cwebber2++ for messing around with implementing # 16:23 cwebber2 but I figured I might be missing something in the spec # 16:23 tantek cwebber2 - there's so much handwaving noise in the "social web" space that the only way to actually get things done is to do heavy filtering # 16:23 rhiaro right, a repost of an article - whether by the same author or not - is an object of it's own with it's own post date. So it's two objects, rather than an activity and an object. But I the case for wanting a written date and a published/posted date separately makes sense # 16:24 tantek yeah based on experience to date, seems like we can do everything without activities, only posts. and since a simpler model is better. qed. # 16:24 rhiaro I meant then, two post objects, rather than an activity and a post # 16:24 jasnell they are just Objects that describe actions taken relative to other objects # 16:24 tantek posts also = permalinks which are a Good Thing™ :) # 16:24 tantek rhiaro: why give something two names for the same thing? # 16:25 elf-pavlik if Activity has "@id " than it also have 'permalink' - myself i assign URI to each activity # 16:25 tantek elf-pavlik: sounds like extra work for no gain # 16:26 jasnell ok, so it's a combination of "Article" and the existing "Post" activity type, it conflates two separate concepts: The Thing and the Activity that created the Thing # 16:26 rhiaro I understand the difference between activities and objects according to AS2, I'm just not sure they need to be different # 16:26 jasnell because while you might be able to conflate Article and Post, you cannot conflate all Activities and Object types # 16:26 tantek like saying we need activities because activities are separate # 16:27 tantek "Share" is either a terrible generic webaction # 16:27 rhiaro I think pushing around objects with all the metadata attached *might* be enough. I'm actively seeking examples where this *isn't* the case, and whilst I obviously haven't covered the entire social web yet, I'm working on it # 16:27 tantek rhiaro: the answer is no, no need for two names for things which look, and act the same # 16:27 rhiaro so when you say "you cannot conflate all Activities and Object types" I want actual concrete examples of where this is the case # 16:27 tantek rhiaro: the beauty of permalinks is that you don't need to push anything around except for the permalinks themselves # 16:28 tantek rhiaro: I'm with you I reject this assertion: "you cannot conflate all Activities and Object types" because so far we've figured out how to do so in every case in the indieweb # 16:28 rhiaro elf-pavlik: ^ experimental and doesn't do everything I need yet, was just a start # 16:28 tantek basically, shipping various kinds of posts is beating the theoretical arguments for activities abstractions # 16:28 rhiaro I haven't fully explored 'follows' yet, plan to # 16:29 tantek rhiaro: it's ok, you don't have to fully explore to deduce based on the very large preponderance of evidence # 16:29 rhiaro elf-pavlik: there's a typo in my microformats # 16:29 tantek elf-pavlik: are you posting your own notes to your own domain yet? # 16:30 rhiaro I put x-u-follow-of instead of u-x-follow-of, known issue # 16:30 rhiaro if I correct it it'll get picked up by the parser # 16:30 elf-pavlik tantek, i don't see 'notes' hight priority for me, more events and places (calendar and map) # 16:30 tantek elf-pavlik: notes are building block for all other post types # 16:30 rhiaro I'm posting travel plans now too at rhiaro.co.uk/travel # 16:31 rhiaro they're just notes with startTime, endTime, startLocation and endLocation # 16:31 tantek thus if *any* post types are a priority for you, you'll find you can implement them more quickly if you start with solving notes for your own site # 16:31 aaronpk elf-pavlik: think of "notes" as a minimum viable event and place post # 16:31 tantek plus with plain text first design, all post types start as notes # 16:31 aaronpk the note text being the plaintext fallback of any other more complex post # 16:32 jasnell tantek: excercise... model, "On May 2nd, 2015, Joe and Sally each bought three bottles of 2013 Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio" as a post that captures all the relevant semantic detail # 16:32 tantek elf-pavlik: if it's not published in HTML, it's not on the web # 16:33 jasnell in other words, I need to know that there are two actors, that they each bought something, what that something was, in what quantity, and on what dates # 16:33 aaronpk elf-pavlik: "Error: Failed to lookup view "undefined" in views directory" # 16:33 rhiaro btw jasnell I have an activitystream json at rhiaro.co.uk/activitiesjson.php. It's simple and has as little nesting as possible, using only URIs, but I think it should be spec compliant # 16:33 aaronpk just make that return the text of the posts with <br> or something :) # 16:33 elf-pavlik aaronpk, i didn't create templates to render HTML yet, not high priority for me! # 16:33 jasnell tantek: that's a cop out. imagine that the statement hasn't been posted yet so there's no url created for it yet # 16:34 jasnell I'm modeling the statement to post to an API so that the url can be created # 16:34 tantek jasnell: not worth considering such theoretical statements given the amount of concrete publishing experience we have # 16:35 jasnell but please, humor me, stretch that imagination just a bit, how would it be modeled *assuming* that it was not theoretical # 16:35 tantek nah, that's science 101, real world evidence trumps theories # 16:35 tantek I'm starting to believe that people responding with "in your opinion only" are basically admitting to defeat in a reasoned argument. # 16:35 rhiaro jasnell: could you post the AS json for that in a gist and I'll see if I can think of a post-y alternative? # 16:35 elf-pavlik tantek, as for now IndieWeb posting AFAIK can't capture difference between "eat an apple pie" and "bake an apple pie", neither "eat an apple" or "pick an apple from the tree" http://mundraub.org/ # 16:36 tantek elf-pavlik: when you start posting those as notes to your own site with permalinks, let me know so we can study them as real world examples # 16:37 rhiaro So far it sounds like it's probably two posts, one each for joe and sally, that could be combined in the UI but should be modelled separately # 16:37 tantek elf-pavlik: anyone can publish theoretical hierarchies of types - not interesting. find some permalinks and then it's worth our time, not til then # 16:38 rhiaro I'm going to post offers and requests as POSSEing to Freegle/Freecycle soonish, and I'm pretty sure they're just gonna look like posts # 16:39 rhiaro because that's the kind of definitely-in-social-scope thing I can see this going beyond posts, but I don't know much about # 16:39 rhiaro and also I'm always up for a text adventure :) # 16:39 Loqi @alapapa :: ♜♞â™â™šâ™›â™â™žâ™œ
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#linebreaks #chess# 16:40 tantek I rest my case with permalinks to evidence as proof # 16:41 jasnell the object types are made up because I don't want to go looking for an existing vocabulary for those types right now # 16:41 rhiaro if you wanted to move your twitter chess to a different network, there's no markup to let the new network know what it is beyond strings, if say you discovered a text-based-chess network that could give you stats on how you play if it knows what all your moves are # 16:41 cwebber2 tantek: I guess the side of games that posts don't feel sufficient for me are those with side effects # 16:42 rhiaro cwebber2: I think we need to have an extensible way of describing side effects DEFINITELY but I don't think it requires activities # 16:42 cwebber2 elf-pavlik has pointed out in activitypump that describing side effects is not clear though # 16:42 rhiaro eg. posting a note with a in-reply-to has a side effect of sending a webmention # 16:42 rhiaro yeah that's definitely something we need to work on # 16:43 tantek rhiaro: those chess examples demonstrate the plain text design fallback # 16:44 tantek you could of course uplevel each of those posts on your own site to notes+extrachessmarkup # 16:44 tantek and frankly, any system that preserves notes with whitespace could accept your chess moves # 16:47 jasnell then say "But the latter doesn't contain the updates made to the object..." # 16:47 jasnell the simple answer is: then add those details if you need them # 16:47 rhiaro oh yeah I discussed that with chris and jessica, they suggested it might be a bug in the example # 16:48 jasnell {"@type ": "Update", "object": { "@id ": "http://example.org/post/1", "content": "this is the new content" } }# 16:48 rhiaro can you do partial updates, or do you have to ship the whole object even the properties that aren't changed? # 16:49 rhiaro (this is a general question I've been meaning to ask) # 16:49 rhiaro ie. if you exclude properties that exist in the update, does it remove them or leave them the same? # 16:49 jasnell btw, if you do not need to provide metadata about the activity itself, it's perfectly ok not to # 16:49 rhiaro if the activity doesn't even have metadata, why have it at all? # 16:50 jasnell there's nothing in AS2 that requires you to always use the Activity object # 16:50 jasnell just like there's nothing in AS2 that requires you to use all of the other object types # 16:51 rhiaro so it *would* be compliant with the current AS2 spec to just publish generic objects? # 16:51 jasnell in other words, AS2 allows you to express both statement forms, "Sally posted an article" and "This article was written by Sally" can each be represented equally # 16:52 jasnell AS2 is *just* a data format, other than defining syntax validation rules, it does not define conformant behaviors AnnB joined the channel
# 16:53 jasnell in other words, AS2 is a vocabulary, a lexicon.. it doesn't define was is "proper grammar" within any specific context # 16:53 cwebber2 it might be useful to distinguish activitypump and activitystreams there, yeah :) # 16:55 jasnell it's also important to point out that an AS2 Activity does not imply **any** side effects. It's just a statement that "Actor" liked "Object". # 16:55 cwebber2 and I'd love to embed the documentation from the AS spec into this implementation # 16:56 jasnell that's a possibility. need to bring it up as an issue then discuss hhalpin joined the channel
# 16:56 hhalpin tantek, you up for chairing this week? # 16:57 jasnell rhiaro: the fact that Activity objects do not automatically imply side effects is important, as is the fact that they are Objects AdamB joined the channel
# 16:57 hhalpin In terms of licensing, this is a much larger issue - i.e. we get patents to specs # 16:58 hhalpin so that obviously if the specs change/fork, that's an issue re the patent commits (i.e. we'd have to do them again!) # 16:58 hhalpin However, in terms of forking for the use in examples, etc. # 16:58 hhalpin The W3C is working very hard on loosening that - I think Rigo and Wendy are working with the AC and the Process CG # 16:58 jasnell when I say, {"@type ": "Like", "actor": "http://example.org/rhiaro", "object": "http://example.org/foo", "content": "this is an awesome post"}, the statement itself is an Object, just with specific semantic detail included # 16:59 hhalpin since obviously its useful to have flexibility in using the spec, as long as the patent commits are to a clear text. # 16:59 hhalpin That make sense? # 16:59 hhalpin jasnell, looks like an Activity to me. # 16:59 hhalpin trackbot, start meeting RRSAgent joined the channel
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# 16:59 Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute # 16:59 Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), hhalpin # 17:00 rhiaro jasnell, hhaplin: that reinforced to me that we don't need two separate things # 17:00 Zakim ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM # 17:00 hhalpin Jasnell, I think the 'activity' model is quite useful # 17:00 Zakim On the phone I see Ann, jasnell, +1.314.705.aaaa, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk # 17:01 jasnell rhiaro: they aren't two separate things, that's the point # 17:01 AdamB Zakim, .aaaa is AdamB # 17:01 Zakim sorry, AdamB, I do not recognize a party named '.aaaa' # 17:01 jasnell every Activity is just a specialized form of Object with specific semantic detail # 17:01 hhalpin Any volunteers with a scribe? # 17:01 hhalpin Zakim, pick a victim # 17:01 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose elf-pavlik (muted) # 17:02 Zakim sees on the phone: Ann, jasnell, +1.314.705.aaaa, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk, elf-pavlik (muted), +1.401.305.aabb # 17:03 hhalpin Scribe: aaronpk # 17:03 AdamB Zakim, aaaa is me # 17:03 hhalpin s/Arnaud/tantek # 17:03 Zakim sorry, cwebber2, I do not recognize a party named '+aacc' # 17:04 Zakim sees on the phone: Ann, jasnell, AdamB, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk, elf-pavlik (muted), ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), Sandro, tantek, cwebber2 # 17:04 Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago # 17:05 aaronpk tantek: first order of business is approval of 2 weeks ago minutes. any objections? # 17:05 aaronpk tantek: not seeing any objections and some +1s, approved minutes # 17:05 trackbot action-14 -- Harry Halpin to Set up json-ld context for namespace -- due 2014-12-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW # 17:06 aaronpk hhalpin: yeah that's been done for a while, the answer is yes eprodrom joined the channel
# 17:06 trackbot action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW # 17:06 Zakim sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't know what conference this is # 17:06 Zakim ok, tantek; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM # 17:07 Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should no longer be muted # 17:07 eprodrom Zakim, aaee is me # 17:08 aaronpk tantek: let's set the status of 34 to open, awaiting a pull request from elf # 17:08 hhalpin No updates for me on context URI, given versioning discussion. # 17:08 trackbot action-41 -- Harry Halpin to Review with wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats -- due 2015-03-10 -- CLOSED # 17:09 aaronpk tantek: did you record the conclusion in the action? # 17:09 aaronpk hhalpin: it was recorded in the issue, but not the action # 17:09 hhalpin I think it's been discussed that normative referening of microformats are OK. # 17:10 aaronpk hhalpin: the microformats issue is closed as ok to reference, the jsonld one is open in elf and sandro's hands # 17:10 Zakim aaronpk, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' # 17:10 aaronpk tantek: if it's in elf and sandro's hands we should open it # 17:10 hhalpin They got a new ACTION, happy to close the current one. # 17:10 aaronpk hhalpin: we gave them a new action, so can close the current one # 17:10 trackbot action-14 -- Harry Halpin to Set up json-ld context for namespace -- due 2014-12-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW sandro joined the channel
# 17:11 trackbot issue-38 -- Do we need to add a version number to the as context uri, to avoid breaking software when new terms are added? -- raised pfefferle joined the channel
# 17:11 aaronpk tantek: sounds like this action is not complete but has outstanding issues to resolve, fine with assigning it to sandro # 17:12 Zakim sees on the phone: Ann, jasnell, AdamB, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk, elf-pavlik (muted), ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), Sandro, tantek, cwebber2, ??P15, KevinMarks, tantek joined the channel
# 17:13 aaronpk ... 41... harry said this one is closed because it's okay to reference microformats # 17:13 aaronpk jasnell: regarding 14, that was a very specific issue abotu getting the context document at the URL, and that has been done # 17:14 hhalpin yep, I put a context document there but wasn't sure if that was right URI due to this versioning discussion # 17:14 aaronpk .. that document will need to be updated next time we publish a working draft # 17:14 ben_thatmustbeme thinks we need to remember to use correct name "issue" vs "action" as people keep flip-flopping # 17:15 hhalpin I'm happy to close 38 but in terms of a context URI, we do have a functional one # 17:15 hhalpin it may not be perfect # 17:15 trackbot action-52 -- Harry Halpin to Discuss re github -- due 2015-03-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW # 17:16 aaronpk hhalpin: we set up the github repos and clarified the difference between the official w3c repos that only the editors can contribute to, and the more free-for-all w3csocial that anyone can contribute to # 17:16 aaronpk tantek: for new people joining the group, is there a link to that clarification that we can put in this issue and on the home page? # 17:16 hhalpin I'll close it out when I make sure that's clear in wiki and in tracker # 17:17 trackbot action-60 -- Pavlik elf to Draw Follow vs. Subscribe with account having multiple feeds allowing subscription independently -- due 2015-05-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW # 17:17 aaronpk elf-pavlik: finished this today, and will send to everyone later today # 17:17 KevinMarks reading scrollback, surely chess already has a more compact text form than posting boards e2-e4 etc # 17:18 trackbot action-63 -- James Snell to Work with sandro and elf pavlik to set up new context uri -- due 2015-05-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW # 17:18 aaronpk tantek: this is the one it sounds like you were done with # 17:18 aaronpk jasnell: i think elf created this and assigned it to me # 17:18 aaronpk ... the other conversation abotu whether we need a different URI for versioning. i didn't understand why this was created # 17:19 aaronpk .. there's nothing to do except updating the context document when the draft is udpated # 17:19 aaronpk elf-pavlik: we can close it, we discussed it after the telcon last week # 17:19 trackbot issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- pending review # 17:20 elf-pavlik we can check with Erik via mailing list to verify if we can close it? # 17:20 Zakim sees on the phone: Ann, jasnell, AdamB, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk, elf-pavlik (muted), ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), Sandro, tantek, cwebber2, ??P15, KevinMarks, # 17:21 aaronpk jasnell: waiting on specific recommendations. i'm happy to accept pull requests but i haven't received any # 17:21 aaronpk .. there were comments on having the spec be structured better but no concrete suggestions # 17:21 aaronpk tantek: i'm seeing a pretty long set of emails related to this so i'm not understanding the goal of this issue # 17:21 aaronpk jasnell: i've already restructred it a number of times, but it'd be great if someone had specific feedback and suggestiosns # 17:21 hhalpin I would propose without specific feedback we eventually close it # 17:22 aaronpk tantek: this issue isn't really actionalbe it sounds like # 17:22 trackbot issue-29 -- Removing Activity Types not used by User Stories -- pending review # 17:22 aaronpk .. noting that james is happy to accept PRs for specivic feedback # 17:23 aaronpk jasnell: this is not really a *lot* of work, just need to reconcile the objects in the spec with the stories we accepted # 17:23 hhalpin Upon first look over, the user types looked pretty close to what was required in user stories # 17:24 aaronpk tantek: it sounds like we accepted this and your'esaying that everyone takes an action to remove types? # 17:24 hhalpin Should probably be kept open and someone *other* than jasnell should check it # 17:24 aaronpk jasnell: i can go throguh it myself, if folks are happy with me making those decisions # 17:24 tantek " The candidates for removal are: Achieve, Claim, Reservation, Arrive, Travel" # 17:24 aaronpk tantek: the issue has a specific list of things to remove # 17:24 hhalpin Then close it out # 17:24 aaronpk tantek: then let's close this as completed, and if there is specific feedback we can look at it later # 17:25 trackbot issue-35 -- Simplify the Actor Types -- pending review # 17:25 aaronpk jasnell: we simplified them by removing half of them # 17:25 aaronpk tantek: thanks james, let's close this one as well # 17:26 trackbot issue-25 -- What syntax is (syntaxes are) to be used in the social api (eg microformats vs json-ld; form-encoding vs json-ld) -- raised # 17:26 hhalpin will note we should probably speed up if we are going to go through any of the agenda items re the API and microformats/RDF # 17:26 aaronpk tantek: we should probably accept this as part of the quetsions the group should answer # 17:26 hhalpin Again, so far it's JSON-LD mandatory, everything else is optional # 17:27 trackbot issue-25 -- What syntax is (syntaxes are) to be used in the social api (eg microformats vs json-ld; form-encoding vs json-ld) -- raised # 17:27 aaronpk eprodrom: is the question to this group is too complex? # 17:27 aaronpk tantek: the question this is asking is the group should decide what syntaxes should be used int he social api # 17:28 aaronpk .. based on some of the discussions, it's reasonable to open this and accept it assuming those folks continue forward # 17:29 trackbot issue-38 -- Do we need to add a version number to the as context uri, to avoid breaking software when new terms are added? -- raised # 17:29 aaronpk tantek: this was blocking other actions, but james you were saying this was a non issue? # 17:29 aaronpk jasnell: we discussed this before, deciding to mint this context uri back in october, we decided not to include versioning information # 17:29 Arnaud for some reason reopen is recognized but not open - even though it does the same! # 17:29 aaronpk .. it wa sdecided then to just have a URI that says activitystreams without version # 17:30 Zakim sees eprodrom, bblfish on the speaker queue # 17:30 aaronpk .. and it does mean that when we get to CR we limit backwards incompatible changes hhalpin_ joined the channel
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# 17:30 hhalpin_ Don't open issues that have been previously closed without very clear reasoning # 17:31 hhalpin_ bblfish, so we're keeping version numbers out of the URI with the current AS 2.0 draft # 17:31 aaronpk bblfish: i don't think it's a good idea to pub version numbers in namespaces # 17:32 aaronpk sandro: once we get to rec, what is the story going to be once we want to make a change # 17:32 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue # 17:32 jasnell let's not attempt to solve problems that don't exist yet. AS3 can mint a brand new URI if necessary # 17:33 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue # 17:33 aaronpk tantek: it sounds like what you're saying is there is a path forward that doesn't require version numbers # 17:33 aaronpk .. so for the purposes of this issue, i'd like to close it summarily # 17:33 aaronpk .. elf harry do you have opinions that warrant opening this? # 17:34 aaronpk elf-pavlik: to clarify, we don't talk about namespace in jsonld context, it's worth keeping this issue open because we don't have a strategy of how to manage jsonld context # 17:34 bblfish ok, so I don't know how contexts work in json-ld work # 17:34 aaronpk .. the other example is the people in the credentials group use version numbers in their context, so we can ask why they use that # 17:34 aaronpk .. it's not about hte namespace of the terms but about the jsonld context which isdifferent # 17:34 aaronpk bblfish: i think i need to find out what jsonld context are # 17:34 Arnaud seems like versioning will remain a dividing issue forever # 17:35 Zakim sees jasnell, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue # 17:35 aaronpk tantek: elf it sounds like you think this is enough of an issue that you want it assigned to you # 17:35 hhalpin_ My two cents is if we do a breaking versiioning change, we just use normal W3C process. # 17:35 aaronpk jasnell: what we're talking about is the normative context document. nothing stops implementers from creating their own modified version of it, that extends but does not modify the base terms # 17:35 aaronpk .. they can put it wherever they want, they can put it in the context URL of their implementation # 17:36 aaronpk .. using a different context URL is already possible withotu changing our default one # 17:36 aaronpk .. the fact that our default one only deals with AS2.0 vocab we aren't making any backward compatible changes to the vocab past CR, so we don't need version number there # 17:36 aaronpk .. everything elf wants to do can already be done without making a change to the context URI # 17:36 Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: jasnell (23%), AdamB (3%), Marilyn (8%), Sandro (57%), tantek (7%) # 17:36 Zakim sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue # 17:37 hhalpin_ For application-specific apps # 17:37 aaronpk sandro: if you change the bytes in the context you use, then the consumers won't do the right thing # 17:37 Zakim sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue # 17:37 aaronpk jasnell: the spec says you can create your own context as long as you don't redefine any of thecore terms # 17:37 bblfish I suppose if we want people to read the JSON as JSON-LD then the context thing may be important for people who don't know the LD part? # 17:37 aaronpk .. i can create one context document that imports another # 17:38 aaronpk .. as long as they don't redefine one of the core terms it's all good # 17:38 Zakim sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue # 17:38 aaronpk sandro: it sounds like if we want to add more terms to the core, then they will have broken the rules for extension without knowing they did # 17:38 aaronpk jasnell: if those changes are backwards compatible then what's the problem # 17:38 Zakim sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue # 17:38 Zakim sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue # 17:39 bblfish IS this a problem to do with non JSON-LD parsers? # 17:39 aaronpk hhalpin_: until we have a good case for changing thet erms in the context dynamically, then we have a w3c process for changin.... # 17:39 aaronpk .. so the question is do we want to be able to change the terms in the base after we pass CR # 17:39 aaronpk .. i don't see a good use case for this, since the context is already extensible # 17:39 aaronpk .. if there is a good case for this then we can visit this after CR and make a note # 17:40 Zakim sees Sandro, bblfish on the speaker queue # 17:40 aaronpk sandro: i don't think we want to freeze things, since it will take at least 2 years to make any changes by that proess # 17:40 hhalpin_ I think we could discuss this indefinitely :) # 17:40 aaronpk tantek: it sounds like there is sufficient debate on this # 17:40 aaronpk .. i'm going to propose opening this and assigning to sandro # 17:41 aaronpk bblfish: i think it would be a good idea to have a debate on the mailing list about this # 17:41 elf-pavlik action: pelf document why some of JSON-LD authors use v1 etc. in context URIs # 17:41 trackbot Created ACTION-65 - Document why some of json-ld authors use v1 etc. in context uris [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-06-02]. # 17:41 jasnell -1 to opening, it's entirely unnecessary to keep open at this point # 17:41 hhalpin_ Maybe an ACTION on Sandro and elf to actually figure out a driving use-case and then edits to the spec? # 17:41 hhalpin_ It's a generic problem bblfish # 17:41 hhalpin_ regardless of whether one is using RDF or JSON # 17:41 aaronpk tantek: it's hard to not open the issue if people think there is something to debate # 17:41 hhalpin_ They can open it, but they need to have a concrete proposal. # 17:42 hhalpin_ notes we have quite a few things to discuss on the agenda - can we move on? # 17:42 Arnaud anyone is free to propose closing any dormant issue # 17:42 trackbot issue-39 -- Do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail? -- raised # 17:43 hhalpin_ that is very vague # 17:43 Arnaud and the chairs propably could probably do a bit of dusting off and come up with a list of such issues # 17:43 Zakim sees bblfish, cwebber on the speaker queue # 17:43 cwebber2 last meeting we resolved to do activities at the end, right? # 17:44 Zakim sees bblfish, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:44 hhalpin_ Happy to extend for 30 minutes but yes, we've opened a bunch of issues that need closing # 17:44 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:44 aaronpk tantek: i suggest we close issue 39 because there's no information about who it's from # 17:44 hhalpin_ In general, we should be much more parsimonious with issues # 17:44 aaronpk bblfish: usually issues are opened in other groups after debating on the mailing list # 17:44 aaronpk ..it seems like here issues are brought up before they are even debated # 17:44 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:45 hhalpin_ My suggestion would be, once we get an API document FPWD, we stop using tracker as much as possible and just move it all to github # 17:45 aaronpk .. we have "create" "add" as separate more semantically specific activities # 17:45 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:45 aaronpk .. there's obvious confusion with "post" used in other contexts # 17:45 aaronpk .. can be deprecated, doesn't cause much harm and simplifies # 17:46 trackbot issue-41 -- PubSubHubbub license clarification requires contacting current editor Julien -- raised # 17:46 aaronpk tantek: this one came up because we were mistaken about who was editing pubsubhubbub right now # 17:46 aaronpk .. there are some of us who would liek toconsider PuSH in what we're working on # 17:46 aaronpk hhalpin_: there's a normative dependency between the new version by julien and the old version # 17:47 aaronpk .. and because there's no licensing attached to the earlier one # 17:47 aaronpk .. the answer is we can reference julien's version informatively no problem # 17:47 aaronpk .. but we cannot push it in as a working draft until we clarify bradfitz commits # 17:47 aaronpk .. i'd like to request you contact julien directly to try to resolve this # 17:48 aaronpk hhalpin_: i've already done this once, bradfitz already said no # 17:48 cwebber2 > eprodrom: In previous telecons we've gone over raised issues, but that's been controversial. What I'd like to do is do that at the end of the agenda if we have time # 17:48 aaronpk hhalpin_: it doesn't matter if julien is editing, becasue it refers to a previous document that we don't have any licensing on # 17:48 hhalpin_ This has been extensively discussed with W3C before launching the WG. # 17:48 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:48 aaronpk tantek: the point is julien is the editor and the chair of the WG, so he is the one we shuld be dealingwith # 17:48 jasnell -1 to opening this issue at this time until it's clear new information is available # 17:49 aaronpk action sandro to follow up with Julien regarding Pubsubhubbub licensing # 17:49 trackbot Created ACTION-66 - Follow up with julien regarding pubsubhubbub licensing [on Sandro Hawke - due 2015-06-02]. # 17:49 aaronpk tantek: the new information is that we should have contacted julien in the first place, not brad # 17:49 aaronpk .. rather than making assumptions about the spec we should have contacted the author # 17:49 trackbot action-66 -- Sandro Hawke to Follow up with julien regarding pubsubhubbub licensing -- due 2015-06-02 -- OPEN # 17:50 aaronpk tantek: let's close the issue with the related action # 17:50 trackbot issue-42 -- Dual licensing activitystreams specs with a free format -- raised # 17:50 trackbot issue-42 -- Dual licensing activitystreams specs with a free format -- raised # 17:51 aaronpk hhalpin_: dual licensing has been discussion, it's beyond this WG to do anything, the answer right now is no, but the answer in the future is likely to be yes # 17:51 aaronpk .. there's nothing this group can do, it's a w3c issue # 17:51 aaronpk Arnaud: there's a new license doc that will allow re-use # 17:51 aaronpk .. in that AC meeting it was reported, so that should solve itself # 17:52 hhalpin_ Yes, but lots of groups will do that so it's not a big deal # 17:52 aaronpk tantek: i asked wendy about that at the AC meeting, our charter mentions a specific license, so we'd need to do a charter modification # 17:52 aaronpk .. i too would like to look at the new license but we can cross that bridge when it gets to the WG # 17:52 cwebber2 +0, it depends on how rhiaro and tsyesika and aaronpk feel # 17:53 hhalpin_ Aaron is also probably needed to help do API discussion # 17:53 cwebber2 welllllllllllll, doesn't this involve aaron as part of this conversation? # 17:53 AnnB I also have to go, but am fine with extending # 17:53 aaronpk Arnaud: if you drop off the call after 11 you probably won't be able to join back, but we can continue # 17:54 aaronpk cwebber2: is aaron required for the items we have? # 17:54 aaronpk hhalpin_: there's the api discussion and the microformat/rdf discussion # 17:54 Arnaud I think our reservation doesnt' quite end at the hour so if you fall within the extra time on the reservation you're fine # 17:54 hhalpin_ aaron and rhiaro, could you intro this? # 17:55 wilkie cwebber2: my +q was from earlier. I suggest either aaron or amy go first. # 17:55 wilkie aaronpk: I'm going to assume people haven't read this yet # 17:55 rhiaro I also made some changes to it within the last hour, sorry :p # 17:55 tantek (people were supposed to have read it from last week) # 17:55 wilkie aaronpk: my goal with this was to collect examples of what micropub would look like in json # 17:56 wilkie aaronpk: to look at the parts of it that were awkward or caused 'discomfort' with people # 17:56 Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aaronpk (85%), Arnaud (14%), Marilyn (15%) # 17:56 wilkie aaronpk: amy did a much thorough comparison she just published. i've only had a brief chance to look over it. # 17:57 wilkie aaronpk: rhiaro? anything you could add to this? # 17:57 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 17:57 wilkie rhiaro: just experimental. i don't really know what I could add other than it just feels like when i put micropub stuff into AS it was just objects in AS and that felt simpler # 17:58 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 17:58 wilkie rhiaro: would love to hear anybody else's feedback # 17:58 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss next steps on that? # 17:58 wilkie elf-pavlik: thank you rhiaro and aaronpk for working on that. I already created a few issues. # 17:58 wilkie elf-pavlik: my question would be: "what are the next steps on this topic?" # 17:59 wilkie rhiaro: I think the next steps are for people to start publishing stuff tilgovi joined the channel
# 17:59 wilkie bblfish: I don't see how you can get LDP tied into that # 17:59 wilkie rhiaro: I haven't thought about LDP yet. haven't had time. # 18:00 wilkie bblfish: is it part of your plan? are you thinking of it? # 18:00 wilkie rhiaro: yes. I'd like to hear your opinion on this. haven't had much feedback from those involved with LDP. # 18:00 Zakim sees eprodrom, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue # 18:01 wilkie jasnell: there's a section on the github on this that can be expanded for comparison # 18:01 wilkie eprodrom: I guess I'm finding the conversation pretty interesting. I think there is definitely an intense cluster around object CRUD lifecycle (create, read, update, delete) a particular object (note etc) # 18:02 Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Arnaud (9%), Marilyn (4%) # 18:02 rhiaro eprodrom: I agree, like activity vs like post are the same # 18:02 wilkie eprodrom: the difference between like-type activity and like-type post as being very small and insignificant # 18:02 wilkie eprodrom: we should not ignore the rest of the scope of our user stories and over focus on CRUD type interactions # 18:03 cwebber2 eprodrom: (pre-meeting-end, request that before you disappear that we sync up on implementation stuff) # 18:03 cwebber2 eprodrom: I did put up the flask thing, and I'm working on some scheme stuff on my own time too :) # 18:03 wilkie aaronpk: CRUD is a good place to start, I feel, but we need to move ahead of it quickly # 18:03 eprodrom cwebber2: thanks, I appreciate it # 18:03 eprodrom Sorry I haven't dug into too much # 18:03 wilkie rhiaro: I agree. add/remove from collections are going to be useful, but I feel most things can be reduced to Post the_frey joined the channel
# 18:04 wilkie hhalpin_: I was wondering (I sent an email) if we could eventually get an editor's first draft out. # 18:04 wilkie hhalpin_: two ways of doing this: drive two/three into convergence, or just pick one. I'd prefer the former rather than latter. # 18:06 elf-pavlik eprodrom, we have another point on agenda for today about that :) # 18:06 wilkie eprodrom: I hate to be the stickler, but I think that for developers outside of the call, if we publish something that doesn't say this is how we post a note, etc, but rather this is how you do a thing without tying to use-cases, I would be worried it wouldn't be actionable outside of us. # 18:06 wilkie eprodrom: we need some decisions around vocabulary in there # 18:06 hhalpin_ Agreed, we'll need to tie it all the use-cases and specify examples with vocabularies *before* FPWD publication # 18:06 eprodrom +1 for incremental progress # 18:06 hhalpin_ However, starting the editors' draft ASAP may help us reach that point # 18:06 tsyesika i think maybe we can converge on the other things and if it comes down to it we can pick a vocab # 18:06 cwebber2 eprodrom: I agree, and I think aaronpk is right re: incremental progress # 18:07 wilkie aaronpk: I totally agree, just need to look at places for incremental progress # 18:07 Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss vocab for editor's draft # 18:07 eprodrom Let's just makes sure we don't publish the "Social API that sends a thing to a place to do some stuff" # 18:07 wilkie tantek: I agree if people saw an abstract draft that it would not look good # 18:07 hhalpin_ If the big vocabulary difference is microformats vs. AS 2.0 Vocabulary, we can move to that discussion next - as I think elf was interested in RDF versions of microformats. # 18:08 eprodrom Bravo to rhiaro tsyesika and aaronpk # 18:08 tsyesika hhalpin_: it's not the only difference but it's certainly a sticking point # 18:08 wilkie tantek: i think that it is good to give aaronpk and rhiaro and LDP people more time to discuss and converge on more concepts. # 18:08 rhiaro we could go forward with some decisions about vocab with some 'at risk' until a decision is made # 18:08 hhalpin_ The question is there any sticking points in terms of syntax (HTTP CRUD and end-points?) # 18:08 hhalpin_ I didn't see any per se # 18:08 hhalpin_ minus the form encoding # 18:09 rhiaro hhalpin_: I added a bit about endpoints to the brainstorming page not long ago, for AP and MP they're basically the same # 18:09 rhiaro Would love someone to drop LDP into that table # 18:09 hhalpin_ That's what I thought was well, so we're probably fine in terms minus the form-encoding of micropub # 18:09 tantek hhalpin_, that's ironic, because form-encoding is part of what makes micropub "micro" # 18:10 wilkie bblfish: I wonder if the vocabulary could be put different. I think the issue is what side-effects exist for publishing some kind of thing. if you post a picture, what are you liable to deal with to do that. # 18:10 rhiaro hhalpin_: also yeah we should do better at documenting our (me aaron jessica) discussions about form-encoding and json, we've thought a bit about this # 18:10 wilkie bblfish: that's the one thing I feel isn't addressed here, but perhaps I just looked too quickly # 18:10 hhalpin_ I would be happy to see form encoding, as I think developers want it, although REST folks might be unhappy # 18:10 wilkie tantek: hhalpin_ seems to be discussing things in irc. anything for the record? # 18:11 wilkie hhalpin_: minus the form encoding bit there isn't much difference between micropub/pump as far as syntax # 18:11 wilkie tantek: questions before moving to next topic? # 18:11 tantek topic: Does as:Follow result in as:Subscribe? # 18:11 wilkie elf-pavlik: we had this conversation on the mailing list # 18:12 wilkie elf-pavlik: this is about the distinction between following somebody and following their channels # 18:12 wilkie elf-pavlik: there is little clarity that if I follow somebody, what am I subscribing to? # 18:12 wilkie elf-pavlik: I don't know if anybody has had a chance to look at it. I posted it quite late. # 18:12 jasnell following objects and subscribing to objects are exactly the same thing really # 18:13 jasnell you can follow a person, you can follow a feed, you can follow any kind of resource # 18:13 eprodrom jasnell: I agree with what you say # 18:13 wilkie tantek: do people need to review the diagram? # 18:13 rhiaro jasnell: I think the question is if you follow a person and they have several feeds, how do you decide the default? # 18:13 wilkie tantek: let's action that people review the diagram # 18:14 wilkie tantek: elf-pavlik, if you could copy this agenda item forward to next week and we'll assume people have reviewed it by then # 18:14 wilkie tantek: that takes us to the next topic: social syntax, and subtopic: aligning as2 and microformats # 18:15 wilkie elf-pavlik: I collected existing efforts and I posted awhile ago the invitation for people could subscribe to each other using these different formats pfefferle joined the channel
# 18:16 wilkie tantek: we looked at this before and made a table of equivalences on the wiki 
Loqi Hhalpin made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-05-26]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84241&oldid=84235
elf-pavlik bblfish, melvster FYI: (Identity Credentials API) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tI0CJ4wAKKPQacrxOmTtl_GQUBeVtbg8e1ZSXs2SWag/edit
jasnell hey rhiaro... I'm looking at http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/05/micropubbing-with
tantek jasnell: http://indiewebcamp.com/post defines it
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ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, aabb is me
cwebber2 jasnell: raised ithttps://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/42
KevinMarks aadd is me
trackbot Sorry, Loqi, I don't understand 'trackbot has 1 karma'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
