#social 2015-05-26

2015-05-26 UTC
cwebber2, Arnaud, bblfish, pfefferle, jasnell, pfefferle_, the_frey, elf-pavlik, stevenroose and the_frey_ joined the channel
cwebber2 joined the channel
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cwebber2
hello #socialites
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rhiaro
yo cwebber2
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melvster
seen it
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melvster
but thanks for sharing, is interesting
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melvster
i think there's fundamental confusion about identity in that group
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jasnell
cwebber2: you around?
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cwebber2
jasnell: yup
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jasnell
looking at your as2 output again, there are a couple of issues
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cwebber2
lay 'em on me!
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jasnell
(1) your top level is an array.. it need to be a collection object
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jasnell
{"@type": "Collection", "items": [ ... ] }
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cwebber2
jasnell: ah good point :)
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cwebber2
will fix that one
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jasnell
also, since you're using the full text of each post, you should use "content" instead of "summary"
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2, can you add your stream to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Deployments ?
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: can do
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cwebber2
jasnell: yes, I "should", though technically in this case it wasn't my *script* that was wrong
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cwebber2
it was the output of the atom stream :)
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cwebber2
the atom stream generated by Pelican uses atom:summary
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cwebber2
yeah sigh indeed
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cwebber2
jasnell: I'll add a cleanup round to my own site, though I'd like to have this script correctly interpret the atom feed
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jasnell
last... using "title" is ok, but if the titles are guaranteed to not have any markup, using "displayName" would be preferred
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jasnell
title and displayName are basically equivalent except that title allows markup while displayName does not
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cwebber2
jasnell: ok, I'll switch it... I'm not sure if atom:title allows for markup or not
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jasnell
it does, using the type switch
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cwebber2
oh, so I can look at that?
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cwebber2
cool, I'll do so.
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cwebber2
luckily the sxml-match thing makes distinguishing between those eeeeeaasy
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cwebber2
nice thanks jasnell
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jasnell
if type="text", use displayName, if type="html" or type="xhtml", use title
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jasnell
if type is omitted, the default is type="text"
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cwebber2
jasnell: great!
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jasnell
other than that, the basic feed looks good!
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Loqi
giggles
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cwebber2
ok I'll deal with those
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cwebber2
jasnell: at the moment I'm converting the whole activitystreams vocabulary into classes
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cwebber2
in guile's GOOPS object oriented system, as an exercise
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cwebber2
it's helping the whole system gel in my head :)
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cwebber2
I understood it before, but I think I'm understanding it better now
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cwebber2
plus, it'll be fun to have a little scheme library for building up AS docs
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jasnell
rhiaro: are you around? :-)
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cwebber2
she might be escaping back to her hostel
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cwebber2
I was talking to her about half an hour ago and she was trying to get back, she had been rained in at a cafe
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jasnell
ah! ok
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jasnell
just looking through her post now
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jasnell
a number of things pop up immediately
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rhiaro
jasnell, back! Would love your feedback
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jasnell
looking at the first example, I see a couple of things that need to be clarified
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jasnell
most important, the distinction between the Object and the Activity
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jasnell
e.g., your statement "There has been a bit of discussion about whether things like audience targeting (to) would be better off attached to the object rather than the activity; I'm inclined to think there's no metadata related to the creating of an object that can't/shouldn't be attached to the object itself, rendering the activity redundant. I keep asking people of examples that contradict this, but so far nobody has given me one."
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jasnell
there is a subtle but important difference that is based on point of view
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jasnell
neither point of view is "more correct" than the other, they're just different and equally valid
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jasnell
consider the two sentences "this article was written by rhiaro" vs. "rhiaro posted an article"
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rhiaro
yeah, I deliberately merged them for that post to see what it would look/feel like, and to provoke feedback
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jasnell
depending on the article, these can be equivalent statements
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jasnell
but, by the same token, they can be very very different
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rhiaro
what's an example?
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jasnell
when I use the form {"@type":"Post", "actor": "http://example/rhiaro", "object": {"@type": "Article", ...} }, I'm talking about two separate things: The Article, and the Activity of Posting the Article
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jasnell
each can have their own sets of properties
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jasnell
for instance, you may have written the article a week ago but only posted it today
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2, re: "I'm converting the whole activitystreams vocabulary into classes" will instances still suport use of any properties - not defined in AS2 vocab but via extensions?
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jasnell
the article may have it's own intended audience, but the statement "rhiaro posted this article" might be directed at a *different* audience than who the article was originally targeted at
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: yes
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: this brought up a question for me btw
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jasnell
and it could be that the article wasn't even written by the same person who posted it
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cwebber2
do you need to subclass a class to extend it?
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cwebber2
or can you start tacking on extensions onto an instance of that class that aren't explicitly defined as being properties of it
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tantek
good morning #social! telcon in 40 minutes :)
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tantek
I find delegation works better than subclassing.
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tantek
jasnell - someone posting an article they didn't write is a bookmark
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tantek
or perhaps a citation
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tantek
or if its in its entirety, a repost
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tantek
all of which are posts themselves
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tantek
jumps right in without context ;)
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elf-pavlik
"In Linked Data, properties are, just as everything else, identified by IRIs and thus have global scope which implies that they have independent semantics. In contrast, properties in data models as used in common programming languages are class-dependent. Their semantics depend on the class they belong to. In data models classes are typically described by the properties they expose whereas in Linked Data properties define to which classes they belong
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elf-pavlik
. If no class is specified, it is assumed that a property may apply to every class."
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tantek
elf-pavlik: I keep hearing hydra but not seeing anyone deploy it on their personal site
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cwebber2
tantek: I was asking elf-pavlik and jasnell what the official AS2 position is on it ;)
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jasnell
rhiaro: the point is, each Activity is it's own distinct object, with it's own sets of properties that are independent of the Object of the activity
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cwebber2
I'm messing around with implementing a library for AS2 modification
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jasnell
rhiaro: make sense?
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cwebber2
AS2 reading/writing
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tantek
why take a position on something theoretical? since it doesn't have a concrete position itself.
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tantek
cwebber2++ for messing around with implementing
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cwebber2
if it doesn't, that's an answer
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 31 karma
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cwebber2
but I figured I might be missing something in the spec
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jasnell
AS2 does take a position on it, a very clear one
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tantek
cwebber2 - there's so much handwaving noise in the "social web" space that the only way to actually get things done is to do heavy filtering
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rhiaro
right, a repost of an article - whether by the same author or not - is an object of it's own with it's own post date. So it's two objects, rather than an activity and an object. But I the case for wanting a written date and a published/posted date separately makes sense
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jasnell
Activities *are* Objects,
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tantek
yeah based on experience to date, seems like we can do everything without activities, only posts. and since a simpler model is better. qed.
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rhiaro
I meant then, two post objects, rather than an activity and a post
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jasnell
they are just Objects that describe actions taken relative to other objects
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tantek
posts also = permalinks which are a Good Thing™ :)
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rhiaro
tantek: activites can have permalinks
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rhiaro
but then, are they the same as posts?
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tantek
rhiaro: why give something two names for the same thing?
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rhiaro
^ is what I'm trying to untangle
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jasnell
be clear in the language... what is a "post"
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tantek
right, ducks
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elf-pavlik
if Activity has "@id" than it also have 'permalink' - myself i assign URI to each activity
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tantek
elf-pavlik: sounds like extra work for no gain
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jasnell
ok, so it's a combination of "Article" and the existing "Post" activity type, it conflates two separate concepts: The Thing and the Activity that created the Thing
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rhiaro
I understand the difference between activities and objects according to AS2, I'm just not sure they need to be different
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tantek
jasnell: that's a tautology
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jasnell
because while you might be able to conflate Article and Post, you cannot conflate all Activities and Object types
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tantek
like saying we need activities because activities are separate
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jasnell
such as "Share" and "Article"
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tantek
jasnell: so far we have
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jasnell
or "Announce" and "Place"
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tantek
"Share" is either a terrible generic webaction
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tantek
or it's a silo term for "repost"
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rhiaro
I think pushing around objects with all the metadata attached *might* be enough. I'm actively seeking examples where this *isn't* the case, and whilst I obviously haven't covered the entire social web yet, I'm working on it
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tantek
rhiaro: the answer is no, no need for two names for things which look, and act the same
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rhiaro
so when you say "you cannot conflate all Activities and Object types" I want actual concrete examples of where this is the case
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tantek
rhiaro: the beauty of permalinks is that you don't need to push anything around except for the permalinks themselves
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro, do you publish a Posting when you *follow* someone ?
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rhiaro
elf-pavlik rhiaro.co.uk/follows
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tantek
rhiaro: I'm with you I reject this assertion: "you cannot conflate all Activities and Object types" because so far we've figured out how to do so in every case in the indieweb
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rhiaro
elf-pavlik: ^ experimental and doesn't do everything I need yet, was just a start
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tantek
basically, shipping various kinds of posts is beating the theoretical arguments for activities abstractions
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tantek
and there's no sign of that changing
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rhiaro
I haven't fully explored 'follows' yet, plan to
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tantek
rhiaro: it's ok, you don't have to fully explore to deduce based on the very large preponderance of evidence
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tantek
we'll figure out follows as well
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rhiaro
elf-pavlik: there's a typo in my microformats
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tantek
elf-pavlik: are you posting your own notes to your own domain yet?
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tantek
(i.e. instead of / before twitter copies)
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rhiaro
I put x-u-follow-of instead of u-x-follow-of, known issue
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rhiaro
if I correct it it'll get picked up by the parser
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elf-pavlik
tantek, i don't see 'notes' hight priority for me, more events and places (calendar and map)
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tantek
elf-pavlik: notes are building block for all other post types
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rhiaro
I'm posting travel plans now too at rhiaro.co.uk/travel
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rhiaro
they're just notes with startTime, endTime, startLocation and endLocation
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tantek
thus if *any* post types are a priority for you, you'll find you can implement them more quickly if you start with solving notes for your own site
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: think of "notes" as a minimum viable event and place post
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tantek
plus with plain text first design, all post types start as notes
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aaronpk
the note text being the plaintext fallback of any other more complex post
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, plaintext fallback makes sense
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jasnell
tantek: excercise... model, "On May 2nd, 2015, Joe and Sally each bought three bottles of 2013 Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio" as a post that captures all the relevant semantic detail
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tantek
jasnell: URL?
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elf-pavlik
tantek, i started publishing some activities already curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/log/ -H "Accept: application/ld+json
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tantek
elf-pavlik: if it's not published in HTML, it's not on the web
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jasnell
in other words, I need to know that there are two actors, that they each bought something, what that something was, in what quantity, and on what dates
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tantek
jasnell: no URL to example, no need
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: "Error: Failed to lookup view "undefined" in views directory"
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rhiaro
btw jasnell I have an activitystream json at rhiaro.co.uk/activitiesjson.php. It's simple and has as little nesting as possible, using only URIs, but I think it should be spec compliant
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aaronpk
just make that return the text of the posts with <br> or something :)
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, i didn't create templates to render HTML yet, not high priority for me!
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jasnell
tantek: that's a cop out. imagine that the statement hasn't been posted yet so there's no url created for it yet
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jasnell
I'm modeling the statement to post to an API so that the url can be created
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tantek
jasnell: not worth considering such theoretical statements given the amount of concrete publishing experience we have
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jasnell
in your opinion only
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jasnell
but please, humor me, stretch that imagination just a bit, how would it be modeled *assuming* that it was not theoretical
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tantek
nah, that's science 101, real world evidence trumps theories
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tantek
real world examples > hypothetical exercises
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tantek
I'm starting to believe that people responding with "in your opinion only" are basically admitting to defeat in a reasoned argument.
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rhiaro
jasnell: could you post the AS json for that in a gist and I'll see if I can think of a post-y alternative?
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elf-pavlik
tantek, as for now IndieWeb posting AFAIK can't capture difference between "eat an apple pie" and "bake an apple pie", neither "eat an apple" or "pick an apple from the tree" http://mundraub.org/
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jasnell
rhiaro: sure, I can mock it up, give me a few
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tantek
elf-pavlik: when you start posting those as notes to your own site with permalinks, let me know so we can study them as real world examples
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tantek
until then, meh
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elf-pavlik
i'll starte including them soon in curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/log/ -H "Accept: application/ld+json"
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rhiaro
So far it sounds like it's probably two posts, one each for joe and sally, that could be combined in the UI but should be modelled separately
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tantek
elf-pavlik: anyone can publish theoretical hierarchies of types - not interesting. find some permalinks and then it's worth our time, not til then
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rhiaro
I'm going to post offers and requests as POSSEing to Freegle/Freecycle soonish, and I'm pretty sure they're just gonna look like posts
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rhiaro
with some extra properties
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tantek
rhiaro: makes sense
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rhiaro
I'm interested in cwebber2's AS-based game
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rhiaro
because that's the kind of definitely-in-social-scope thing I can see this going beyond posts, but I don't know much about
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rhiaro
and also I'm always up for a text adventure :)
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tantek
re: games - see https://twitter.com/alapapa/status/312053522755641344 - you can play chess merely with notes and replies
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Loqi
@alapapa :: ♜♞♝♚♛♝♞♜ ♟♟♟♟♟♟♟♟ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ▓ ░ ♙♙♙♙♙♙♙♙ ♖♘♗♔♕♗♘♖ #linebreaks #chess
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aaronpk
thank you Loqi lol
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tantek
again, no notion of "activity" needed
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tantek
I rest my case with permalinks to evidence as proof
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tantek
evidence = not just an opinion
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jasnell
the object types are made up because I don't want to go looking for an existing vocabulary for those types right now
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rhiaro
if you wanted to move your twitter chess to a different network, there's no markup to let the new network know what it is beyond strings, if say you discovered a text-based-chess network that could give you stats on how you play if it knows what all your moves are
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cwebber2
tantek: I guess the side of games that posts don't feel sufficient for me are those with side effects
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cwebber2
eg, removing 20 health from a goblin :)
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I think we need to have an extensible way of describing side effects DEFINITELY but I don't think it requires activities
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik has pointed out in activitypump that describing side effects is not clear though
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rhiaro
eg. posting a note with a in-reply-to has a side effect of sending a webmention
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cwebber2
for extensibility purpose
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rhiaro
yeah that's definitely something we need to work on
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tantek
rhiaro: those chess examples demonstrate the plain text design fallback
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tantek
you could of course uplevel each of those posts on your own site to notes+extrachessmarkup
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tantek
and frankly, any system that preserves notes with whitespace could accept your chess moves
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tantek
across systems
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tantek
export / import into another network etc.
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jasnell
rhiaro: moving on in the examples in your post
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jasnell
you have the example:
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jasnell
"@type": "Update",
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jasnell
"object": "http://example.org/post/1"
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jasnell
then say "But the latter doesn't contain the updates made to the object..."
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jasnell
the simple answer is: then add those details if you need them
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rhiaro
oh yeah I discussed that with chris and jessica, they suggested it might be a bug in the example
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rhiaro
what would be normal? how would you do it?
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jasnell
{"@type": "Update", "object": { "@id": "http://example.org/post/1", "content": "this is the new content" } }
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rhiaro
okie dokie
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rhiaro
can you do partial updates, or do you have to ship the whole object even the properties that aren't changed?
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rhiaro
(this is a general question I've been meaning to ask)
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rhiaro
ie. if you exclude properties that exist in the update, does it remove them or leave them the same?
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jasnell
btw, if you do not need to provide metadata about the activity itself, it's perfectly ok not to
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rhiaro
if the activity doesn't even have metadata, why have it at all?
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jasnell
there's nothing in AS2 that requires you to always use the Activity object
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jasnell
just like there's nothing in AS2 that requires you to use all of the other object types
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rhiaro
so it *would* be compliant with the current AS2 spec to just publish generic objects?
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jasnell
in other words, AS2 allows you to express both statement forms, "Sally posted an article" and "This article was written by Sally" can each be represented equally
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jasnell
AS2 is *just* a data format, other than defining syntax validation rules, it does not define conformant behaviors
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jasnell
that's up to the API to define
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rhiaro
starts to see things more clearly
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cwebber2
clarity++
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Loqi
clarity has 2 karma
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jasnell
in other words, AS2 is a vocabulary, a lexicon.. it doesn't define was is "proper grammar" within any specific context
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro, 'Activity only' requirement comes from http://w3c-social.github.io/activitypump/#streams
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rhiaro
righto
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cwebber2
it might be useful to distinguish activitypump and activitystreams there, yeah :)
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jasnell
s/define was/define what
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cwebber2
jasnell: btw
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cwebber2
jasnell: one thing I really wish
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cwebber2
is that we had a dual license on tha AS spec
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jasnell
it's also important to point out that an AS2 Activity does not imply **any** side effects. It's just a statement that "Actor" liked "Object".
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cwebber2
because the w3c default license forbids modification
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cwebber2
and I'd love to embed the documentation from the AS spec into this implementation
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cwebber2
but that's LGPL incompatible
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jasnell
that's a possibility. need to bring it up as an issue then discuss
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hhalpin
waves
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cwebber2
jasnell: okay I'll raise it
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hhalpin
tantek, you up for chairing this week?
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cwebber2
jasnell: is this a w3c tracker or github issue?
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jasnell
w3c tracker
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jasnell
rhiaro: the fact that Activity objects do not automatically imply side effects is important, as is the fact that they are Objects
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hhalpin
In terms of licensing, this is a much larger issue - i.e. we get patents to specs
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hhalpin
so that obviously if the specs change/fork, that's an issue re the patent commits (i.e. we'd have to do them again!)
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hhalpin
However, in terms of forking for the use in examples, etc.
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hhalpin
The W3C is working very hard on loosening that - I think Rigo and Wendy are working with the AC and the Process CG
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jasnell
when I say, {"@type": "Like", "actor": "http://example.org/rhiaro", "object": "http://example.org/foo", "content": "this is an awesome post"}, the statement itself is an Object, just with specific semantic detail included
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hhalpin
since obviously its useful to have flexibility in using the spec, as long as the patent commits are to a clear text.
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hhalpin
That make sense?
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hhalpin
jasnell, looks like an Activity to me.
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hhalpin
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 26 May 2015
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hhalpin
Zakim, code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), hhalpin
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jasnell
hhalpin: didn't say it wasn't.
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rhiaro
jasnell, hhaplin: that reinforced to me that we don't need two separate things
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Arnaud
zakim, this is socl
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Zakim
ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
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hhalpin
Jasnell, I think the 'activity' model is quite useful
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Zakim
+aaronpk
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Arnaud
zakim, who's on the phone?
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Zakim
On the phone I see Ann, jasnell, +1.314.705.aaaa, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk
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jasnell
rhiaro: they aren't two separate things, that's the point
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jasnell
Activity derives from Object
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AdamB
Zakim, .aaaa is AdamB
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Zakim
sorry, AdamB, I do not recognize a party named '.aaaa'
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Zakim
+??P6
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, ??P6 is me
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Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
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jasnell
every Activity is just a specialized form of Object with specific semantic detail
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
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hhalpin
Any volunteers with a scribe?
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hhalpin
Zakim, pick a victim
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Zakim
+ +1.401.305.aabb
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Zakim
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose elf-pavlik (muted)
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: Ann, jasnell, +1.314.705.aaaa, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk, elf-pavlik (muted), +1.401.305.aabb
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ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, aabb is me
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Zakim
+ben_thatmustbeme; got it
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, unmute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
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Zakim
+??P8
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cwebber2
ohhhh! it's meeting time
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cwebber2
sorry, dialing in
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Zakim
+Sandro
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ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
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rhiaro
Zakim, ??P8 is me
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Zakim
+rhiaro; got it
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aaronpk
can scribe
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rhiaro
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
rhiaro should now be muted
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jasnell
cwebber2++
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 32 karma
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
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hhalpin
chair: Arnaud
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hhalpin
Scribe: aaronpk
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AdamB
Zakim, aaaa is me
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Zakim
+AdamB; got it
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Zakim
+??P10
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rhiaro
tantek was here a second ago
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aaronpk
scribenick: aaronpk
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tantek
zakim, ??p10 is me
#
Zakim
+tantek; got it
#
tantek
zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
tantek should now be muted
#
hhalpin
s/Arnaud/tantek
#
Zakim
+ +1.773.614.aacc
#
tantek
Zakim: unmute me
#
cwebber2
Zakim, +aacc is me
#
Zakim
sorry, cwebber2, I do not recognize a party named '+aacc'
#
tantek
zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
tantek should no longer be muted
#
cwebber2
Zakim, aacc is me
#
Zakim
+cwebber2; got it
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: Ann, jasnell, AdamB, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk, elf-pavlik (muted), ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), Sandro, tantek, cwebber2
#
tantek
trackbot, start meeting
#
trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
#
trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
#
Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
#
trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot
Date: 26 May 2015
#
aaronpk
tantek: first order of business is approval of 2 weeks ago minutes. any objections?
#
cwebber2
+1 on approving
#
hhalpin
+1
#
aaronpk
tantek: not seeing any objections and some +1s, approved minutes
#
aaronpk
... looking at actions pending review
#
aaronpk
TOPIC: actions pending review
#
tantek
action-14
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
is looking up action-14.
#
trackbot
action-14 -- Harry Halpin to Set up json-ld context for namespace -- due 2014-12-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
aaronpk
tantek: harry anything to report on action 14?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: yeah that's been done for a while, the answer is yes
eprodrom joined the channel
#
tantek
action-34
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
is looking up action-34.
#
trackbot
action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't know what conference this is
#
tantek
zakim, this is SOCL
#
Zakim
ok, tantek; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
#
Zakim
+ +1.408.335.aadd
#
aaronpk
tantek: anything you wanted to point out, elf?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should no longer be muted
#
Zakim
+ +1.514.554.aaee
#
aaronpk
Zakim, unmute elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
#
tantek
zakim, unmute elf-pavlik
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik was not muted, tantek
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
KevinMarks
aadd is me
#
eprodrom
Zakim, aaee is me
#
Zakim
+eprodrom; got it
#
KevinMarks
zakim, aadd is me
#
Zakim
+KevinMarks; got it
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
aaronpk
tantek: let's set the status of 34 to open, awaiting a pull request from elf
#
hhalpin
No updates for me on context URI, given versioning discussion.
#
hhalpin
that's closed
#
aaronpk
action-41
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
action-41 -- Harry Halpin to Review with wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats -- due 2015-03-10 -- CLOSED
#
trackbot
is looking up action-41.
#
hhalpin
yep
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: already completed
#
aaronpk
tantek: did you record the conclusion in the action?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: it was recorded in the issue, but not the action
#
Zakim
+[IPcaller]
#
wilkie
Zakim, IPcaller is me
#
Zakim
+wilkie; got it
#
hhalpin
I think it's been discussed that normative referening of microformats are OK.
#
aaronpk
AnnB: is there confusion between 41 and 14?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: the microformats issue is closed as ok to reference, the jsonld one is open in elf and sandro's hands
#
Zakim
aaronpk, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
we can close action-14 since we have action-63
#
aaronpk
tantek: if it's in elf and sandro's hands we should open it
#
hhalpin
They got a new ACTION, happy to close the current one.
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: we gave them a new action, so can close the current one
#
tantek
action-14
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
is looking up action-14.
#
trackbot
action-14 -- Harry Halpin to Set up json-ld context for namespace -- due 2014-12-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW
sandro joined the channel
#
tantek
issue-38
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-38.
#
trackbot
issue-38 -- Do we need to add a version number to the as context uri, to avoid breaking software when new terms are added? -- raised
pfefferle joined the channel
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: sounds like this action is not complete but has outstanding issues to resolve, fine with assigning it to sandro
#
hhalpin
Sandro?
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: Ann, jasnell, AdamB, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk, elf-pavlik (muted), ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), Sandro, tantek, cwebber2, ??P15, KevinMarks,
#
Zakim
... eprodrom, wilkie
tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk
tantek: that takes us back to 14
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
... 41... harry said this one is closed because it's okay to reference microformats
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
jasnell: regarding 14, that was a very specific issue abotu getting the context document at the URL, and that has been done
#
aaronpk
.. the other issues are independent of that fact
#
hhalpin
yep, I put a context document there but wasn't sure if that was right URI due to this versioning discussion
#
aaronpk
.. that document will need to be updated next time we publish a working draft
#
ben_thatmustbeme
thinks we need to remember to use correct name "issue" vs "action" as people keep flip-flopping
#
hhalpin
I'm happy to close 38 but in terms of a context URI, we do have a functional one
#
hhalpin
it may not be perfect
#
aaronpk
tantek: action-51
#
hhalpin
:)
#
tantek
action-52
#
trackbot
is looking up action-52.
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
action-52 -- Harry Halpin to Discuss re github -- due 2015-03-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
aaronpk
tantek: action-52
#
aaronpk
s/51/52
#
aaronpk
... this was also harry
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: we set up the github repos and clarified the difference between the official w3c repos that only the editors can contribute to, and the more free-for-all w3csocial that anyone can contribute to
#
aaronpk
tantek: for new people joining the group, is there a link to that clarification that we can put in this issue and on the home page?
#
elf-pavlik
close action-52 (to close it from irc) http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
#
aaronpk
hhalpin: i can do that
#
hhalpin
I'll close it out when I make sure that's clear in wiki and in tracker
#
ben_thatmustbeme
wikifying +1
#
tantek
action-60
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
is looking up action-60.
#
trackbot
action-60 -- Pavlik elf to Draw Follow vs. Subscribe with account having multiple feeds allowing subscription independently -- due 2015-05-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
#
aaronpk
elf-pavlik: finished this today, and will send to everyone later today
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
aaronpk
tantek: thanks elf, let's close this
#
KevinMarks
reading scrollback, surely chess already has a more compact text form than posting boards e2-e4 etc
#
tantek
close action-60
#
trackbot
is closing action-60.
#
trackbot
Closed action-60.
#
elf-pavlik
trackbot++
#
Loqi
trackbot has 1 karma
#
trackbot
Sorry, Loqi, I don't understand 'trackbot has 1 karma'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
#
tantek
action-63
#
trackbot
is looking up action-63.
#
RRSAgent
sees no action items
#
trackbot
action-63 -- James Snell to Work with sandro and elf pavlik to set up new context uri -- due 2015-05-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
aaronpk
tantek: this is the one it sounds like you were done with
#
aaronpk
jasnell: i think elf created this and assigned it to me
#
aaronpk
... the other conversation abotu whether we need a different URI for versioning. i didn't understand why this was created
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
#
aaronpk
.. there's nothing to do except updating the context document when the draft is udpated
#
aaronpk
elf-pavlik: we can close it, we discussed it after the telcon last week
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
tantek
close action-63
#
trackbot
is closing action-63.
#
trackbot
Closed action-63.
#
aaronpk
tantek: okay if you both agree let's close it
#
aaronpk
TOPIC: issues pending review
#
aaronpk
tantek: only three! that's good
#
tantek
issue-16
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-16.
#
trackbot
issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- pending review
#
aaronpk
tantek: erik raised this
#
aaronpk
.. is erik on the call?
#
elf-pavlik
we can check with Erik via mailing list to verify if we can close it?
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: Ann, jasnell, AdamB, Arnaud, Marilyn, aaronpk, elf-pavlik (muted), ben_thatmustbeme (muted), rhiaro (muted), Sandro, tantek, cwebber2, ??P15, KevinMarks,
#
Zakim
... eprodrom, wilkie
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
doen't look like he is in irc either
#
tantek
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
jasnell: waiting on specific recommendations. i'm happy to accept pull requests but i haven't received any
#
aaronpk
.. there were comments on having the spec be structured better but no concrete suggestions
#
elf-pavlik
i suggest setting it back to open
#
aaronpk
tantek: i'm seeing a pretty long set of emails related to this so i'm not understanding the goal of this issue
#
ben_thatmustbeme
this looks like a catch-all issue
#
aaronpk
jasnell: i've already restructred it a number of times, but it'd be great if someone had specific feedback and suggestiosns
#
ben_thatmustbeme
given the number of related emails
#
Zakim
-??P15
#
hhalpin
I would propose without specific feedback we eventually close it
#
aaronpk
tantek: this issue isn't really actionalbe it sounds like
#
eprodrom
+1
#
aaronpk
.. anyone disagree with harry's proposal?
#
tantek
close issue-16
#
trackbot
is closing issue-16.
#
trackbot
Closed issue-16.
#
aaronpk
.. let's go ahead and close it
#
tantek
issue-29
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-29.
#
trackbot
issue-29 -- Removing Activity Types not used by User Stories -- pending review
#
aaronpk
.. noting that james is happy to accept PRs for specivic feedback
#
aaronpk
tantek: this sounds like a lot of work
#
aaronpk
jasnell: this is not really a *lot* of work, just need to reconcile the objects in the spec with the stories we accepted
#
hhalpin
Upon first look over, the user types looked pretty close to what was required in user stories
#
Zakim
+??P15
#
tsyesika
Zakim, ??P15 is me
#
Zakim
+tsyesika; got it
#
tsyesika
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
tsyesika should now be muted
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: it sounds like we accepted this and your'esaying that everyone takes an action to remove types?
#
hhalpin
Should probably be kept open and someone *other* than jasnell should check it
#
aaronpk
jasnell: i can go throguh it myself, if folks are happy with me making those decisions
#
tantek
" The candidates for removal are: Achieve, Claim, Reservation, Arrive, Travel"
#
aaronpk
tantek: the issue has a specific list of things to remove
#
aaronpk
jasnell: those have been removed
#
hhalpin
Then close it out
#
aaronpk
tantek: then let's close this as completed, and if there is specific feedback we can look at it later
#
tantek
close issue-29
#
trackbot
is closing issue-29.
#
trackbot
Closed issue-29.
#
tantek
issue-35
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-35.
#
trackbot
issue-35 -- Simplify the Actor Types -- pending review
#
aaronpk
jasnell: we simplified them by removing half of them
#
aaronpk
tantek: thanks james, let's close this one as well
#
tantek
close issue-35
#
trackbot
is closing issue-35.
#
trackbot
Closed issue-35.
#
elf-pavlik
tantek++
#
Loqi
tantek has 194 karma
#
aaronpk
tantek: normally we look at raised issues next
#
aaronpk
TOPIC: raised issues
#
aaronpk
issue-25
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-25.
#
trackbot
issue-25 -- What syntax is (syntaxes are) to be used in the social api (eg microformats vs json-ld; form-encoding vs json-ld) -- raised
#
hhalpin
will note we should probably speed up if we are going to go through any of the agenda items re the API and microformats/RDF
#
Zakim
+ +33.6.43.93.aaff
#
aaronpk
tantek: we should probably accept this as part of the quetsions the group should answer
#
hhalpin
Again, so far it's JSON-LD mandatory, everything else is optional
#
eprodrom
Ugh
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
tantek
issue-25
#
tantek
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-25.
#
trackbot
issue-25 -- What syntax is (syntaxes are) to be used in the social api (eg microformats vs json-ld; form-encoding vs json-ld) -- raised
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: is the question to this group is too complex?
#
aaronpk
tantek: the question this is asking is the group should decide what syntaxes should be used int he social api
#
aaronpk
.. we haven't made this decision yet
#
aaronpk
.. based on some of the discussions, it's reasonable to open this and accept it assuming those folks continue forward
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: sorry i was mixing up 25 and 35
#
eprodrom
+1
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
open issue-25
#
tantek
issue-38
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-38.
#
trackbot
issue-38 -- Do we need to add a version number to the as context uri, to avoid breaking software when new terms are added? -- raised
#
aaronpk
tantek: this was blocking other actions, but james you were saying this was a non issue?
#
aaronpk
jasnell: we discussed this before, deciding to mint this context uri back in october, we decided not to include versioning information
#
Arnaud
for some reason reopen is recognized but not open - even though it does the same!
#
aaronpk
.. it wa sdecided then to just have a URI that says activitystreams without version
#
cwebber2
yes fall back!
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
.. and it does mean that when we get to CR we limit backwards incompatible changes
#
aaronpk
tantek: can you word that as a proposal in IRC?
#
eprodrom
q-
hhalpin_ joined the channel
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
jasnell: the proposal is don't open this issue
the_frey joined the channel
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin_
Don't open issues that have been previously closed without very clear reasoning
#
hhalpin_
bblfish, so we're keeping version numbers out of the URI with the current AS 2.0 draft
#
elf-pavlik
JSON-LD @context != namespace !
#
aaronpk
bblfish: i don't think it's a good idea to pub version numbers in namespaces
#
tantek
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
KevinMarks
only add a version number for breaking chanegs
#
aaronpk
sandro: once we get to rec, what is the story going to be once we want to make a change
#
aaronpk
... this is also a json context uri
#
elf-pavlik
let's open it!
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
bblfish: is there a way to deprecate terms?
#
hhalpin_
q+
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
sandro: foaf is not a recommendation
#
jasnell
let's not attempt to solve problems that don't exist yet. AS3 can mint a brand new URI if necessary
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: it sounds like what you're saying is there is a path forward that doesn't require version numbers
#
hhalpin_
q- hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
.. so for the purposes of this issue, i'd like to close it summarily
#
tantek
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
unmutes elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
.. elf harry do you have opinions that warrant opening this?
#
aaronpk
elf-pavlik: to clarify, we don't talk about namespace in jsonld context, it's worth keeping this issue open because we don't have a strategy of how to manage jsonld context
#
bblfish
ok, so I don't know how contexts work in json-ld work
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
.. the other example is the people in the credentials group use version numbers in their context, so we can ask why they use that
#
aaronpk
.. it's not about hte namespace of the terms but about the jsonld context which isdifferent
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
aaronpk
bblfish: i think i need to find out what jsonld context are
#
Arnaud
seems like versioning will remain a dividing issue forever
#
hhalpin_
q+
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
i can take action
#
tantek
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: elf it sounds like you think this is enough of an issue that you want it assigned to you
#
hhalpin_
My two cents is if we do a breaking versiioning change, we just use normal W3C process.
#
aaronpk
jasnell: what we're talking about is the normative context document. nothing stops implementers from creating their own modified version of it, that extends but does not modify the base terms
#
tantek
hhalpin_ I tend to agree
#
cwebber2
jasnell: I've done my part to suggest dropping something from the spec ;) https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/113
#
aaronpk
.. they can put it wherever they want, they can put it in the context URL of their implementation
#
aaronpk
.. using a different context URL is already possible withotu changing our default one
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
aaronpk
.. the fact that our default one only deals with AS2.0 vocab we aren't making any backward compatible changes to the vocab past CR, so we don't need version number there
#
hhalpin_
q?
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
.. everything elf wants to do can already be done without making a change to the context URI
#
bblfish
that also makes sense
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: jasnell (23%), AdamB (3%), Marilyn (8%), Sandro (57%), tantek (7%)
#
Zakim
hears Sandro's hand up
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
can we open this issue and discuss it further?
#
aaronpk
.. the context document can live wherever
#
hhalpin_
In particular apps they can change the @context
#
hhalpin_
For application-specific apps
#
aaronpk
sandro: if you change the bytes in the context you use, then the consumers won't do the right thing
#
hhalpin_
q?
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
jasnell: the spec says you can create your own context as long as you don't redefine any of thecore terms
#
bblfish
I suppose if we want people to read the JSON as JSON-LD then the context thing may be important for people who don't know the LD part?
#
aaronpk
.. i can create one context document that imports another
#
aaronpk
.. as long as they don't redefine one of the core terms it's all good
#
hhalpin_
q?
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
sandro: it sounds like if we want to add more terms to the core, then they will have broken the rules for extension without knowing they did
#
elf-pavlik
let's open it!
#
aaronpk
jasnell: if those changes are backwards compatible then what's the problem
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
-tsyesika
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_, Sandro on the speaker queue
#
bblfish
IS this a problem to do with non JSON-LD parsers?
#
tantek
ack hhalpin_
#
Zakim
sees Sandro on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
hhalpin_: until we have a good case for changing thet erms in the context dynamically, then we have a w3c process for changin....
#
Zakim
+??P13
#
aaronpk
.. so the question is do we want to be able to change the terms in the base after we pass CR
#
tsyesika
Zakim, ??P13 is me
#
Zakim
+tsyesika; got it
#
aaronpk
.. i don't see a good use case for this, since the context is already extensible
#
tsyesika
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
tsyesika should now be muted
#
aaronpk
.. if there is a good case for this then we can visit this after CR and make a note
#
Zakim
sees Sandro on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees Sandro, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
sandro: i don't think we want to freeze things, since it will take at least 2 years to make any changes by that proess
#
hhalpin_
I think we could discuss this indefinitely :)
#
aaronpk
tantek: it sounds like there is sufficient debate on this
#
aaronpk
.. i'm going to propose opening this and assigning to sandro
#
aaronpk
bblfish: i think it would be a good idea to have a debate on the mailing list about this
#
elf-pavlik
action: pelf document why some of JSON-LD authors use v1 etc. in context URIs
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent
records action 1
#
trackbot
Created ACTION-65 - Document why some of json-ld authors use v1 etc. in context uris [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-06-02].
#
jasnell
-1 to opening, it's entirely unnecessary to keep open at this point
#
hhalpin_
Maybe an ACTION on Sandro and elf to actually figure out a driving use-case and then edits to the spec?
#
elf-pavlik
hhalpin_, i just took action
#
hhalpin_
It's a generic problem bblfish
#
bblfish
ok. need to learn more about json-ld
#
hhalpin_
regardless of whether one is using RDF or JSON
#
aaronpk
tantek: it's hard to not open the issue if people think there is something to debate
#
hhalpin_
They can open it, but they need to have a concrete proposal.
#
hhalpin_
notes we have quite a few things to discuss on the agenda - can we move on?
#
elf-pavlik
+1 enought traker for today!
#
Arnaud
anyone is free to propose closing any dormant issue
#
tantek
issue-39
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-39.
#
trackbot
issue-39 -- Do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail? -- raised
#
hhalpin_
that is very vague
#
elf-pavlik
+1 sandro
#
Arnaud
and the chairs propably could probably do a bit of dusting off and come up with a list of such issues
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
propose extending the call 30 minutes
#
elf-pavlik
+1 jasnell
#
eprodrom
jasnell: +1
#
cwebber2
last meeting we resolved to do activities at the end, right?
#
bblfish
agree close it
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin_
Happy to extend for 30 minutes but yes, we've opened a bunch of issues that need closing
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: i suggest we close issue 39 because there's no information about who it's from
#
hhalpin_
In general, we should be much more parsimonious with issues
#
aaronpk
bblfish: usually issues are opened in other groups after debating on the mailing list
#
aaronpk
..it seems like here issues are brought up before they are even debated
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
tantek
close issue-39
#
trackbot
is closing issue-39.
#
trackbot
Closed issue-39.
#
eprodrom
q-
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
tantek
issue-40
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-40.
#
trackbot
issue-40 -- Deprecate the "Post" activity -- raised
#
aaronpk
jasnell: the post activity was part of AS1.0
#
hhalpin_
My suggestion would be, once we get an API document FPWD, we stop using tracker as much as possible and just move it all to github
#
aaronpk
.. as the default activity
#
aaronpk
.. we have "create" "add" as separate more semantically specific activities
#
rhiaro
+1 Create over Post
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
.. there's obvious confusion with "post" used in other contexts
#
elf-pavlik
+1 deprecate Post
#
aaronpk
.. can be deprecated, doesn't cause much harm and simplifies
#
aaronpk
tantek: that makes sense, will open this
#
eprodrom
q-
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
tantek
issue-41
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-41.
#
trackbot
issue-41 -- PubSubHubbub license clarification requires contacting current editor Julien -- raised
#
aaronpk
tantek: this one came up because we were mistaken about who was editing pubsubhubbub right now
#
aaronpk
.. there are some of us who would liek toconsider PuSH in what we're working on
#
aaronpk
.. harry this probably involves you
#
aaronpk
hhalpin_: there's a normative dependency between the new version by julien and the old version
#
aaronpk
.. and because there's no licensing attached to the earlier one
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
.. the answer is we can reference julien's version informatively no problem
#
aaronpk
.. but we cannot push it in as a working draft until we clarify bradfitz commits
#
aaronpk
tantek: are you okay with reopening this?
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
.. i'd like to request you contact julien directly to try to resolve this
#
aaronpk
hhalpin_: i've already done this once, bradfitz already said no
#
aaronpk
tantek: because julien is editing this now
#
cwebber2
> eprodrom: In previous telecons we've gone over raised issues, but that's been controversial. What I'd like to do is do that at the end of the agenda if we have time
#
aaronpk
hhalpin_: it doesn't matter if julien is editing, becasue it refers to a previous document that we don't have any licensing on
#
cwebber2
was that for this meeting or for future meetings?
#
cwebber2
that meeting
#
hhalpin_
This has been extensively discussed with W3C before launching the WG.
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
tantek: the point is julien is the editor and the chair of the WG, so he is the one we shuld be dealingwith
#
jasnell
-1 to opening this issue at this time until it's clear new information is available
#
aaronpk
sandro: would you like me to take this?
#
aaronpk
action sandro to follow up with Julien regarding Pubsubhubbub licensing
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
trackbot
Created ACTION-66 - Follow up with julien regarding pubsubhubbub licensing [on Sandro Hawke - due 2015-06-02].
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
KevinMarks
+1 to sorting this out with julien
#
aaronpk
tantek: the new information is that we should have contacted julien in the first place, not brad
#
aaronpk
.. rather than making assumptions about the spec we should have contacted the author
#
eprodrom
q-
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
action-66
#
trackbot
is looking up action-66.
#
trackbot
action-66 -- Sandro Hawke to Follow up with julien regarding pubsubhubbub licensing -- due 2015-06-02 -- OPEN
#
aaronpk
tantek: let's close the issue with the related action
#
tantek
issue-42
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-42.
#
aaronpk
issue-42
#
trackbot
issue-42 -- Dual licensing activitystreams specs with a free format -- raised
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-42.
#
trackbot
issue-42 -- Dual licensing activitystreams specs with a free format -- raised
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
hhalpin_: dual licensing has been discussion, it's beyond this WG to do anything, the answer right now is no, but the answer in the future is likely to be yes
#
aaronpk
.. there's nothing this group can do, it's a w3c issue
#
cwebber2
Arnaud: is there a link to this?
#
cwebber2
new license?
#
aaronpk
Arnaud: there's a new license doc that will allow re-use
#
aaronpk
.. in that AC meeting it was reported, so that should solve itself
#
hhalpin_
Yes, but lots of groups will do that so it's not a big deal
#
aaronpk
tantek: i asked wendy about that at the AC meeting, our charter mentions a specific license, so we'd need to do a charter modification
#
aaronpk
.. i too would like to look at the new license but we can cross that bridge when it gets to the WG
#
elf-pavlik
+1 extend call
#
aaronpk
tantek: there was a request to extend the call
#
jasnell
+1 to extend
#
cwebber2
I would be fine with extending
#
eprodrom
+1 to extend
#
cwebber2
+0, it depends on how rhiaro and tsyesika and aaronpk feel
#
aaronpk
-0 i have to go at 11
#
cwebber2
okay it's extended :)
#
hhalpin_
Aaron is also probably needed to help do API discussion
#
cwebber2
welllllllllllll, doesn't this involve aaron as part of this conversation?
#
AnnB
I also have to go, but am fine with extending
#
aaronpk
Arnaud: if you drop off the call after 11 you probably won't be able to join back, but we can continue
#
aaronpk
tantek: let's go ahead and extend
#
cwebber2
tantek: wait
#
tsyesika
aaron would need to be yep cwebber2 and hhalpin_
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Arnaud: that hasn't been a problem for me in the past
#
elf-pavlik
who can scribe?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
we did this before and I was able to get back on
#
wilkie
I can scribe
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
wilkie++
#
tantek
thanks wilkie
#
Loqi
wilkie has 12 karma
#
aaronpk
cwebber2: is aaron required for the items we have?
#
aaronpk
hhalpin_: there's the api discussion and the microformat/rdf discussion
#
wilkie
let's do it
#
tantek
scribenick: wilkie
#
tantek
topic: Social API
#
Arnaud
I think our reservation doesnt' quite end at the hour so if you fall within the extra time on the reservation you're fine
#
wilkie
tantek: that brings us to social API
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin_
aaron and rhiaro, could you intro this?
#
wilkie
tantek: who wants to go first
#
tantek
ack cwebber2
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
-tsyesika
#
rhiaro
is in a noisy room, go aaronpk
#
wilkie
tantek: let's ack cwebber2
#
tantek
ack aaronpk
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
cwebber2: my +q was from earlier. I suggest either aaron or amy go first.
#
Zakim
+??P13
#
wilkie
aaronpk: I'm going to assume people haven't read this yet
#
wilkie
tantek: assume they have read it
#
tsyesika
Zakim, ??P13 is me
#
Zakim
+tsyesika; got it
#
rhiaro
I also made some changes to it within the last hour, sorry :p
#
tsyesika
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
tsyesika should now be muted
#
tantek
(people were supposed to have read it from last week)
#
wilkie
aaronpk: my goal with this was to collect examples of what micropub would look like in json
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
tsyesika
hopes she doesn't drop off after 20:00
#
wilkie
aaronpk: to look at the parts of it that were awkward or caused 'discomfort' with people
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aaronpk (85%), Arnaud (14%), Marilyn (15%)
#
KevinMarks
read what? URL? Amy's post?
#
cwebber2
rhiaro++
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 98 karma
#
cwebber2
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 818 karma
#
wilkie
aaronpk: amy did a much thorough comparison she just published. i've only had a brief chance to look over it.
#
cwebber2
for doing these
#
tsyesika
rhiaro++
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 99 karma
#
cwebber2
also rhiaro's post is really awesome
#
tsyesika
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 819 karma
#
wilkie
aaronpk: rhiaro? anything you could add to this?
#
cwebber2
does rhiaro have voice?
#
tantek
ack rhiaro
#
Zakim
unmutes rhiaro
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: next steps on that?
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
-ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
rhiaro: just experimental. i don't really know what I could add other than it just feels like when i put micropub stuff into AS it was just objects in AS and that felt simpler
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
rhiaro: would love to hear anybody else's feedback
#
tantek
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
unmutes elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss next steps on that?
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
tantek: elf?
#
Zakim
+ben_thatmustbeme
#
wilkie
elf-pavlik: thank you rhiaro and aaronpk for working on that. I already created a few issues.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
wilkie
elf-pavlik: my question would be: "what are the next steps on this topic?"
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
tantek: response?
#
wilkie
rhiaro: I think the next steps are for people to start publishing stuff
#
tantek
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
tantek: sounds reasonable
#
wilkie
tantek: henry go ahead
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
tilgovi joined the channel
#
hhalpin_
q?
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
bblfish: there's interest in LDP being tied in
#
wilkie
bblfish: I don't see how you can get LDP tied into that
#
cwebber2
bblfish: could you help?
#
wilkie
rhiaro: I haven't thought about LDP yet. haven't had time.
#
wilkie
bblfish: is it part of your plan? are you thinking of it?
#
elf-pavlik
Pull Requests :)
#
wilkie
rhiaro: yes. I'd like to hear your opinion on this. haven't had much feedback from those involved with LDP.
#
tantek
pullrequests++
#
Loqi
pullrequests has 2 karma
#
hhalpin_
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
jasnell: there's a section on the github on this that can be expanded for comparison
#
tantek
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
s/jasnell/aaronpk
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's making noise?
#
wilkie
eprodrom: I guess I'm finding the conversation pretty interesting. I think there is definitely an intense cluster around object CRUD lifecycle (create, read, update, delete) a particular object (note etc)
#
rhiaro
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
rhiaro should now be muted
#
cwebber2
all verbs are nouns now ;)
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Arnaud (9%), Marilyn (4%)
#
tantek
cwebber2++
#
Loqi
cwebber2 has 33 karma
#
rhiaro
eprodrom: I agree, like activity vs like post are the same
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud can you try mute?
#
wilkie
eprodrom: the difference between like-type activity and like-type post as being very small and insignificant
#
AnnB
gotta go .. bye
#
tantek
bye AnnB!
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
eprodrom: we should not ignore the rest of the scope of our user stories and over focus on CRUD type interactions
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: (pre-meeting-end, request that before you disappear that we sync up on implementation stuff)
#
rhiaro
Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim
rhiaro should no longer be muted
#
elf-pavlik
ciao Ann, we meet again tomorrow during IG call :)
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I did put up the flask thing, and I'm working on some scheme stuff on my own time too :)
#
wilkie
aaronpk: CRUD is a good place to start, I feel, but we need to move ahead of it quickly
#
eprodrom
cwebber2: thanks, I appreciate it
#
eprodrom
Sorry I haven't dug into too much
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack hhalpin_
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
rhiaro: I agree. add/remove from collections are going to be useful, but I feel most things can be reduced to Post
#
rhiaro
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
rhiaro should now be muted
the_frey joined the channel
#
wilkie
hhalpin_: I was wondering (I sent an email) if we could eventually get an editor's first draft out.
#
wilkie
hhalpin_: two ways of doing this: drive two/three into convergence, or just pick one. I'd prefer the former rather than latter.
#
eprodrom
+1
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
yeah, I agree with aaronpk re: vocab
#
rhiaro
that's what I was going to say
#
tsyesika
i also agree for what it's worth
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom, we have another point on agenda for today about that :)
#
rhiaro
usecases++
#
Loqi
usecases has 1 karma
#
wilkie
eprodrom: I hate to be the stickler, but I think that for developers outside of the call, if we publish something that doesn't say this is how we post a note, etc, but rather this is how you do a thing without tying to use-cases, I would be worried it wouldn't be actionable outside of us.
#
wilkie
eprodrom: we need some decisions around vocabulary in there
#
hhalpin_
Agreed, we'll need to tie it all the use-cases and specify examples with vocabularies *before* FPWD publication
#
eprodrom
+1 for incremental progress
#
hhalpin_
However, starting the editors' draft ASAP may help us reach that point
#
tsyesika
i think maybe we can converge on the other things and if it comes down to it we can pick a vocab
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: I agree, and I think aaronpk is right re: incremental progress
#
tantek
q+ re: vocab for editor's draft
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack q
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
-KevinMarks
#
wilkie
aaronpk: I totally agree, just need to look at places for incremental progress
#
Zakim
tantek, you wanted to discuss vocab for editor's draft
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
Let's just makes sure we don't publish the "Social API that sends a thing to a place to do some stuff"
#
wilkie
tantek: I agree if people saw an abstract draft that it would not look good
#
hhalpin_
If the big vocabulary difference is microformats vs. AS 2.0 Vocabulary, we can move to that discussion next - as I think elf was interested in RDF versions of microformats.
#
eprodrom
progress++
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
we can jump into this dicussion right now :)
#
Loqi
progress has 4 karma
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
Bravo to rhiaro tsyesika and aaronpk
#
tsyesika
hhalpin_: it's not the only difference but it's certainly a sticking point
#
elf-pavlik
topic: Aligning AS2.0 and Microformats ?
#
cwebber2
indeed!
#
wilkie
tantek: i think that it is good to give aaronpk and rhiaro and LDP people more time to discuss and converge on more concepts.
#
rhiaro
we could go forward with some decisions about vocab with some 'at risk' until a decision is made
#
hhalpin_
The question is there any sticking points in terms of syntax (HTTP CRUD and end-points?)
#
hhalpin_
I didn't see any per se
#
wilkie
tantek: would rather see that convergence
#
hhalpin_
minus the form encoding
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
tantek
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
hhalpin_: I added a bit about endpoints to the brainstorming page not long ago, for AP and MP they're basically the same
#
rhiaro
Would love someone to drop LDP into that table
#
hhalpin_
That's what I thought was well, so we're probably fine in terms minus the form-encoding of micropub
#
tantek
hhalpin_, that's ironic, because form-encoding is part of what makes micropub "micro"
#
KevinMarks
did zakim hang me up?
#
wilkie
bblfish: I wonder if the vocabulary could be put different. I think the issue is what side-effects exist for publishing some kind of thing. if you post a picture, what are you liable to deal with to do that.
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
hhalpin_: also yeah we should do better at documenting our (me aaron jessica) discussions about form-encoding and json, we've thought a bit about this
#
wilkie
bblfish: that's the one thing I feel isn't addressed here, but perhaps I just looked too quickly
#
hhalpin_
I would be happy to see form encoding, as I think developers want it, although REST folks might be unhappy
#
wilkie
tantek: hhalpin_ seems to be discussing things in irc. anything for the record?
#
Zakim
-tsyesika
#
tsyesika
ugh i dropped off
#
wilkie
hhalpin_: minus the form encoding bit there isn't much difference between micropub/pump as far as syntax
#
aaronpk
bye for now!
#
elf-pavlik
ciao aaronpk
#
Zakim
-aaronpk
#
wilkie
tantek: questions before moving to next topic?
#
Zakim
+??P0
#
tsyesika
i dropped off
#
tantek
topic: Does as:Follow result in as:Subscribe?
#
tsyesika
Zakim, ??P0 is me
#
Zakim
+tsyesika; got it
#
tsyesika
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
tsyesika should now be muted
#
tantek
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
unmutes elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
wilkie
elf-pavlik: we had this conversation on the mailing list
#
wilkie
elf-pavlik: this is about the distinction between following somebody and following their channels
#
Zakim
-tantek
#
tantek
darn it
#
wilkie
elf-pavlik: there is little clarity that if I follow somebody, what am I subscribing to?
#
Zakim
+??P3
#
tantek
zakim, ??P3 is me
#
Zakim
+tantek; got it
#
wilkie
elf-pavlik: I don't know if anybody has had a chance to look at it. I posted it quite late.
#
jasnell
following objects and subscribing to objects are exactly the same thing really
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
you can follow a person, you can follow a feed, you can follow any kind of resource
#
eprodrom
jasnell: I agree with what you say
#
wilkie
tantek: do people need to review the diagram?
#
wilkie
elf-pavlik: I think it would be helpful
#
rhiaro
jasnell: I think the question is if you follow a person and they have several feeds, how do you decide the default?
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
trackbot
Error finding 'all'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
#
wilkie
tantek: let's action that people review the diagram
#
Zakim
-ben_thatmustbeme
#
wilkie
tantek: elf-pavlik, if you could copy this agenda item forward to next week and we'll assume people have reviewed it by then
#
tantek
topic: Social Syntax
#
wilkie
tantek: that takes us to the next topic: social syntax, and subtopic: aligning as2 and microformats
#
rhiaro
"works on" is a bit strong :p
#
wilkie
elf-pavlik: I collected existing efforts and I posted awhile ago the invitation for people could subscribe to each other using these different formats
pfefferle joined the channel
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
Zakim
+KevinMarks
#
wilkie
tantek: we looked at this before and made a table of equivalences on the wiki
#
Zakim
+ben_thatmustbeme
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me