#social 2015-06-13

2015-06-13 UTC
jasnell, bblfish, harry, tilgovi, elf-pavlik and melvster joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme so are we even meeting next week? tantek and Arnaud already expressed regrets and I don't think anyone contacted evan
#
rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: lots of people seem to be away, and there's not much by way of an agenda at https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-06-16...
#
ben_thatmustbeme there is no agenda as no one set it up
#
ben_thatmustbeme if it weren't for me being unsure if i can attend i would create one
#
ben_thatmustbeme as i have a few things to bring up but they may be better waiting for James anyway
#
ben_thatmustbeme just sent out message to that effect to the mailing list
#
melvster thanks
#
melvster I should be around on IRC even if there's no meeting
#
ben_thatmustbeme so I guess I'll float the idea here
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: which idea?
#
ben_thatmustbeme AS2 has a section on having multi-lingual support
#
melvster sure
#
melvster json ld is multi lingual
#
ben_thatmustbeme but this is unsupported by ANY use case, approved or otherwise
#
melvster all rdf serializations are
#
ben_thatmustbeme also in the social sense it would be asking posters to write their post in multiple languages
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: I cant speak for the use cases but when i was at drupal con the drupal guys said language supports in linked data was critical to them
#
melvster drupal probably powers 10% of the web
#
melvster and are keen on standards
#
ben_thatmustbeme to be clear you can still post in any language you want
#
ben_thatmustbeme this is putting multiple language versions in the same activity
#
melvster generally you will have one language e.g. @en
#
ben_thatmustbeme en: "i like this url", jp: kono URL ga suki", fr: etc
#
melvster you could do that but I suspect it would be very rare
#
ben_thatmustbeme exactly, and if its so rare, and not a use-case i would argue drop it
#
melvster more likely is in future we'll have automatic translators so a japanese person could talk to a french person : see for example http://blogs.skype.com/2014/12/15/skype-translator-preview-an-exciting-journey-to-a-new-chapter-in-communication/
#
ben_thatmustbeme we had previously resolved to drop things not useful to any approved use case, this drops something not useful to any use case at all
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: exactly, automatic translators also negate the need for posting in multiple languages
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: I thought swat0 was the only approved use case?
#
ben_thatmustbeme I believe we resolved to approve all "entirely positive" ones, but due to lack of sleep i'm not 'entirely positive' on that :P
#
melvster hehe
#
melvster oh good
#
ben_thatmustbeme seems pretty likely any entirely positive or neutral will get approved too with little or no change
#
melvster because i was struggling so far with SWAT0 because I dont really know what 'following' means and it's not defined from what I have been able to see
#
melvster ill still try and implement it
#
melvster but if there's other use cases
#
melvster maybe there are some that are easier to start with
#
ben_thatmustbeme indeed, swat0 covers a lot
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: personally I quite like language support, I like the idea of people not using english to have a great web experience with people of other languages, it's for free in JSON LD and all linked data in fact, if it was taken out of the AS2, I guess I could live with it
#
ben_thatmustbeme it can always be added back later
#
melvster maybe IBM need it, they are famous for having people in different countries
#
ben_thatmustbeme but i think its unrealistic to have people drafting messages in multiple languages
#
melvster why?
#
melvster most systems add i18n when they scale
#
ben_thatmustbeme other thing, is that if you push a non-multi-linugual post, it can be translated by the receiver. and leaves room for better translators in the future
#
melvster same applies in both
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: i18n for fixed strings works well, i18n for any string is unrealistic
#
ben_thatmustbeme and if people only write in 1 language ever, having a lang=en, or lang=fr becomes pretty useless
#
melvster why?
#
melvster how can a machine know what language something is in then?
#
ben_thatmustbeme to which part? unrealistic or
#
melvster to it being useless
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: language support isnt really part of AS2, it's part of JSON LD, this is really just documentation
#
melvster and it's optional
#
ben_thatmustbeme as I understand it, anything in AS2 spec we have to provide tests for and provide systems that use it. That means more work, and if its not used
#
ben_thatmustbeme labelling lang is fine, though that has proven to be flooded by copy-paste of lang=en in HTML
#
ben_thatmustbeme its better to default to not specifying language and have others add it optionally, than to specify the wrong language, thus if you do keep it, its important to label it very much optional. but also again, no user stories support it, and no systems that I know of yet use it
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: SoLiD uses language support, drupal uses language support, is the issue here that microformats dont support languages?
#
ben_thatmustbeme i'm not asking about solid or drupal, i'm talking AS2 and our goal of a smaller spec
#
ben_thatmustbeme lang=en is fine to set, but i'm saying its not needed
#
ben_thatmustbeme also, supporting something, and a software actually making use of it are two very different things
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: that's true, but SoLiD definitely makes use of language tags
#
ben_thatmustbeme how so?
#
ben_thatmustbeme genuinely curious
#
melvster because we take data from wikipedia and wikipedia is in many languages
#
ben_thatmustbeme not a bad idea
#
melvster that might not be a social use case, but solid isnt *only* a social platform
#
elf-pavlik labels from wikidata in multiple languages available http://googleknowledge.github.io/qlabel/
#
ben_thatmustbeme maybe propose a user story then
#
elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, i hope to get an unhosted micropub client working by tomorrow https://github.com/elf-pavlik/unmpc
#
elf-pavlik for now it will post to shared walls on https://phubble.tuxed.net/
#
ben_thatmustbeme qlabel basically makes my arguement that you don't need to have multi language, you can look words up by tools like that
#
ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik++
#
Loqi elf-pavlik has 28 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme nice!
#
melvster http://de.dbpedia.org/page/David_Beckham
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: to be clear, all you would need then is the label of the language, not posting multiple transaltions of the same text at the same time
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: we consume that kind of data, I know it's not social, but it's a person ... note the @de
#
elf-pavlik i will also try to start with delegated feed similar to https://phubble.tuxed.net/just-testing/ , i just need to add rel="feed" link to my homepage
#
rhiaro I see people posting things in two languages on facebook
#
melvster really?
#
rhiaro in the same post, with no way to label it
#
ben_thatmustbeme really??
#
rhiaro yeah, mostly greek friends
#
melvster ah
#
rhiaro who live in UK
#
rhiaro so they post the same things for home friends and university friends
#
ben_thatmustbeme i have french and japanese friends and have never seent hat
#
rhiaro I'll see if I can find a screenshot
#
rhiaro braces self, opens facebook
#
ben_thatmustbeme haha
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: and they do that without language tags... hmmmmm
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: and i'd argue thats WAY more work than any average user would do
#
ben_thatmustbeme my point is this, if you are going to post in multiple languages, its a lot of work. If you are going to say you can autotranslate that should not be done by the producer (as consumers in the future will be better at translating than consumers or producers now)
#
melvster id quite like to add an auto translator to my chat app, so knowing the language could be helpful, id really like to do it with speech and video, kind of like the alta vista babel fish ...
#
ben_thatmustbeme also, unless you are translating to ALL languages its somewhat useless. in fact any standard things like "like" "share" etc definitely do not need it alt all
#
rhiaro ben_thatmustbe: if I could read a feed through something that let me filter out languages I don't understand, I'd use that
#
rhiaro my facebook feed is like 30% languages I don't know that I skim past
#
melvster rhiaro++
#
Loqi rhiaro has 106 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: there has been no one to create such a thing thus far. more likely you'd want to translate through google translate or some other such service
#
rhiaro (because I'm already feeling bad about being on facebook, hitting translate is too much engagement)
#
ben_thatmustbeme so lang= is fine
#
ben_thatmustbeme but thats still not providing an argument for posting in multiple languages
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: could be done automatically
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: why does lang= not solve the problem, is it page wide, or tag wide, or is the problem simply that you cant have it repeated?
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: i would definitely write in multiple languages, in fact i've started to with my AP implementation
#
tsyesika http://tsyesika.se/feed
#
melvster im pretty sure @lang can be used all over the place
#
tsyesika that's currently hand written but i will be adding it to my software
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: google translate definitely does not have every language and for most languages it's subpar
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: lang= does solve the problem of any use i can see, its that multilanguage that i don't see use for
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: you can see people do translations into multi languages on youtube video subtitles for example
#
ben_thatmustbeme posting twice works, also, lang= does not solve mixed language posts
#
melvster got it
#
melvster oh yeah subtitles, i use them alot
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: I soon will be blogging and I want to offer it in multiple languages (probably three)
#
ben_thatmustbeme subtitles aren't posts, <video> tag already supports multi track
#
melvster opensubtitles is awesome
#
tsyesika one of which has no translator at all, another where google translate routinely maks mistakes and the other is english
#
ben_thatmustbeme tsyesika: are you doing the writing in multiple languages yourself?
#
tsyesika i am yep
#
ben_thatmustbeme impressive
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: i currently have two blogs, one in na'vi and one in english, i currently have them seporate and it's unfortunate
#
tsyesika with my new site i'm building it so it's the same code, same posts, same APIs and just offering multiple languages
#
tsyesika I'm probably going to add swedish now i'm living in sweden and using swedish on a daily basis
#
ben_thatmustbeme tsyesika: they are all of the same posts or do you ever post different content?
#
tsyesika (http://tsyesika.co.uk is my Na'vi blog) http://theperplexingpariah.co.uk is my english blog - I know the SSL cert is run out)
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: currently different but that's mainly because the software and different sites make it annoying, I plan to write all future posts in multiple languages
#
tsyesika and I've started to do that with my hand written feed for microblogging right now
#
tsyesika blogs will be also done with Activity streams and activity pump
#
ben_thatmustbeme why would it be any less difficult? just for synchronization
#
ben_thatmustbeme also, could that be done with just posting multiple times and then filter by lang=
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: here is some JSON LD for david beckham : http://dbpedia.org/sparql?default-graph-uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdbpedia.org&query=DESCRIBE+<http://dbpedia.org/resource/David_Beckham>&output=application%2Fld%2Bjson
#
melvster { "@value" : "\u5927\u536B\u00B7\u8D1D\u514B\u6C49\u59C6" , "@language" : "zh" } ,
#
melvster { "@value" : "David Beckham" , "@language" : "es" } ,
#
melvster { "@value" : "\u30C7\u30D3\u30C3\u30C9\u30FB\u30D9\u30C3\u30AB\u30E0" , "@language" : "ja" }
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: It could yes but they are the same post but in two languages
#
tsyesika so they shouldn't be two posts
#
melvster every person in wikipedia will have a file like that which we sometimes consume
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: still don't see any point to that as its just as easily done with translation. software
#
melvster or if you're tantek you'll have both an indieweb page and a wiki page :D
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: also for bilingual people, which do they post on, they also have to subscribe to two posts when they're commenting/sharing/liking?
#
ben_thatmustbeme tsyesika: you have to admit you are probably something of an edge case in that though
#
ben_thatmustbeme tsyesika: thats true, but why would i want comments in the other language?
#
ben_thatmustbeme unless you are going to translate comments for them
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: I dont really comment on edge cases, everything is an edge case from someone's perspective, just saying we use this style ...
#
ben_thatmustbeme or expect them to post multi-lingual
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: about 90% of swedes speak fluent english, they use both english and swedish on a daily basis, if they are subscribing to both posts and commenting
#
tsyesika it just seems silly to me to subscribe to effectively the same post because multiple languages are in play
#
tsyesika ben_thatmustbeme: I have also done posts where i have just in the post separator both languages by names let me find an example to link you to
#
ben_thatmustbeme tsyesika: exactly, that covers all cases
#
ben_thatmustbeme which btw, how do you put a lang= on that post?
#
tsyesika https://io.theperplexingpariah.co.uk/Tsyesika/note/_QUifiy-QYaIFBhN5OlI5Q an example
#
ben_thatmustbeme also, perhaps someone should write a user story that actually takes in to account multi language, which was my original argument
#
tsyesika well i'd have support for the addition of a multi language user story
#
melvster tsyesika++
#
Loqi tsyesika has 13 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme add one to the more user stories page
#
tsyesika I will most definitely -1 any suggestion to remove the feature as it will impact me in a very direct way and I imagine a lot of others
#
tsyesika the world for the most part is multilingual
#
ben_thatmustbeme tsyesika: by the fact that we already voted to remove things not supported by any user stories (i believe the specifics was to remove anything not supported by APPROVED user stories, we can always add the functionality back later) we sort of already voted on this question
#
ben_thatmustbeme in order to keep the spec small
#
tsyesika possibly there are 90 user stories sometimes it's easy to even figure out everyway you use them and then figure out which are covered, if a user story is needed for this I will write one (I'm actually away camping in the moutains in the north of sweden all week) but once I come back
#
ben_thatmustbeme wow, everyone is away this week?
#
melvster summer holidays, im here tho ... i dont do holidays :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme tsyesika: will you be missing tuesday's call too?
#
tsyesika yep
#
ben_thatmustbeme wonders who will be left
#
melvster if google translate API was still there I could mock up a quick chat session of two people in different languages and have the user set their language
#
melvster then each talks in their own language
#
melvster but it translates for them
#
melvster germans would love this :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme Arnaud: you said you cannot make tuesday correct?
#
ben_thatmustbeme adding people to regrets for this week
#
ben_thatmustbeme even though there isn't any soft of agenda yet
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: sounds great, language labels make sense
#
melvster tsyesika: if you need help or someone to review the user story id be happy to help, at a stretch I could try and implement too
#
ben_thatmustbeme still not my point of multiple languages at the same time
#
melvster how else would transfer the message?
#
ben_thatmustbeme in 1 language
#
melvster but how would you store and display it then?
#
ben_thatmustbeme translate by api after receiving
#
melvster dynamic translation?
#
ben_thatmustbeme otherwise you are translating twice
#
melvster that doesnt suit caching well
#
ben_thatmustbeme s/translating/sending/
#
melvster because then you have to make an API call every messge
#
Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-06-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84467&oldid=84412
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: you have to do that anyway to translate
#
tsyesika melvster: ooh :) that's awesome
#
ben_thatmustbeme its just the call is made by the receiving, not the sender
#
tsyesika i think rhiaro wanted to work on a reader which would filter on language
#
tsyesika though she might be too busy
#
melvster yes but, how then do you cache/store the result, without using the second language tag? otherwise you have to use the API over and over, or have some kludge
#
ben_thatmustbeme for group chat, sure, you have to translate every line not in your language
#
melvster i working right now on mainly person to person chat, like skype or whatsapp
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: store the translated language, or store both, caching is an internal problem not an aspect of an activity stream
#
melvster i talk to a lot of people in czech or german, it would be nice to send messages to them in both formats
#
melvster store where?
#
ben_thatmustbeme also for real time chat, it was long ago agreed that live streaming like live chat, and video are not in scope for this group
#
melvster you need to send or store the result in a data structure, so we would reuse the JSON for that
#
ben_thatmustbeme looks up documentation on that
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: fine, thats intenal data structure
#
ben_thatmustbeme NOT AS2
#
melvster why?
#
melvster im arguing that it *is* AS2
#
ben_thatmustbeme we are not going to pu into a spec every possible internal field ever needed
#
melvster it's the most logical thing to do following RESTful principles
#
ben_thatmustbeme thats rediculous scope creep
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: fine, also, covered by extensions
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: it's not an internal field, it's part of JSON LD, and therefore, part of AS2
#
rhiaro omg I just remembered tantek has a post with embedded language tags
#
ben_thatmustbeme json-ld != AS2
#
rhiaro hasn't read backlog
#
rhiaro lemme find it
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: multiple?
#
melvster i suspect ibm may also need multi language
#
melvster but they could confirm that
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: i suspect IBM uses a translation service, but yes, we can confirm
#
rhiaro view-source:http://tantek.com/2015/079/b1/dublin-core-application-profiles ctrl+f lang=
#
rhiaro it's a joke, but it's there..
#
rhiaro (en-us vs en-gb for different spellings)
#
melvster here you go:
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: internal text to the post though, not the entire post is multi-lang
#
melvster someone in this room right now
#
melvster KevinMarks_
#
melvster http://dbpedia.org/sparql?default-graph-uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdbpedia.org&query=DESCRIBE+<http://dbpedia.org/resource/Kevin_Marks>&output=application%2Fld%2Bjson
#
melvster { "@id": "http://ja.dbpedia.org/resource/\u30B1\u30F4\u30A3\u30F3\u30FB\u30DE\u30FC\u30AF\u30B9"} ] ,
#
melvster "http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#label" : [ { "@value" : "\u30B1\u30F4\u30A3\u30F3\u30FB\u30DE\u30FC\u30AF\u30B9" , "@language" : "ja" } ,
#
melvster { "@value" : "Kevin Marks" , "@language" : "en" } ]
cwebber2 joined the channel
#
melvster multiple language tags
#
cwebber2 I hear there's a language conversation going on!
#
rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: yeah I know, I thought it was worth mentioning anyway
#
rhiaro is flitting between other things, not all here
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: again, this isn't an Activity stream either, just a user profile, basically the same as hreflang
#
ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i'm arguing that having multiple languages in one activity is outside all user stories and excessive, should be removed
#
ben_thatmustbeme can always re-add later
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: I just want to clarify something about my chat system, it's actually a microblogging systems with SIOC : Posts, but I added websockets to make it realtime, if you turn off the sockets (which you can do) it's just like a traditional cimba or indieweb
#
ben_thatmustbeme or can be handled via extensions
#
cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: I'm not sure it's excessive, I think there's good reason for it... and I don't think it'll be easy to add later
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: cool
#
cwebber2 this will be something much easier to implement early on
#
ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i'd disagree, it makes no difference plus it adds extra difficulty to getting spec out
#
melvster does anyone know a free translation service, maybe I can mock something up?
#
ben_thatmustbeme cwebber it also suggests people write a post in multiple languages. any non freeform text doesn't need it. "like" and "share" its pointless
#
melvster share isnt pointless
#
melvster consider a post in 3 languages
#
melvster the reader knows your language and displays it in english
#
melvster you share to your followers
#
melvster if it's in the other languages and shared to a person with a preference it gets put in their preferred language
#
melvster so a german person sees it in german
#
melvster a chinese person in chinese
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: exactly, share activities, according to spec are JUST a URL
#
ben_thatmustbeme no language needed
#
ben_thatmustbeme "user shared this" is a static string, and should not be posted in multiple languages
#
melvster yes but didnt you see the pump API, you can inline lots of stuff with a URL
#
ben_thatmustbeme or reader should translate it themselves, its just a string lookup
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: indieweb does the same, so its just the freeform text part again
#
ben_thatmustbeme you have to manually write the post in multiple languages
#
ben_thatmustbeme which is more than 99% of people will want to do
#
ben_thatmustbeme and it can be accomplished with translation services
#
melvster unless it's auto translated
#
ben_thatmustbeme and it can be done by just writing the text twice as is done on every silo
#
ben_thatmustbeme also, future translators will be better than current ones, so better to relegate that to something that will improve with time
#
ben_thatmustbeme AND keeps the message length smaller, AND keeps the spec smaller, AND makes less work for us to pushing AS2 out the door
#
cwebber2 "like" and "share" aren't pointless, but that's a separate issue.
#
cwebber2 I'm not insanely attached to the multi-language thing in AS2, but there are others who do care, and I'm not sure if it's wise to strip out
#
cwebber2 at any rate
#
ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i didn't mean they are useless, i meant for like and share (without text) its pointless to send in multiple languages
#
cwebber2 it's more or less already supported by json-ld right? I think? but I might be wrong.
#
cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: ah ok!
#
cwebber2 http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#string-internationalization
#
rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme, what melvster said about share is really good idea
#
rhiaro if one post has multiple languages, you see it in your first choice, you share it and your friends see it in their first choice
#
rhiaro not the "shared this" text, but the text of the original post
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: another thing that i was going to argue is that "share" isn't really very clear, its really reposting, commenting, or just plain post with a list
#
rhiaro where share=repost
#
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: fine, but again, unless the original post you are sharing supports EVERY language, its better to just rely on translations of the receiver
#
ben_thatmustbeme unless you want to just needlessly send languages to everyone that they can't read
#
rhiaro my friends who flood my timeline with greek - a lot of the time they're reposting things from their greek friends. But if the original posts had mutliple languages, and I just saw the english version regardless, that would be cool
#
melvster sometimes just 2 languages can be a big plus ...
#
ben_thatmustbeme other thing, all this can be done by requesting a specific language
#
ben_thatmustbeme and then its again an internal issue
#
ben_thatmustbeme there is no need to receive two languages
#
ben_thatmustbeme s/receive/transfer/
#
ben_thatmustbeme so if you want to have two languages fine, requesting a language is the better way about it, not always giving both
#
ben_thatmustbeme and again its ouside of as2
#
ben_thatmustbeme except maybe for making sure you can specify lang with a request
#
aaronpk maybe you should look at existing behavior, plenty of bi/multilingual people post on twitter all the time
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: same with facebook and G+
#
aaronpk twitter and facebook even provide a "translate" button which runs it through an auto-translator
#
ben_thatmustbeme rather surprised G+ doesn't thought that may be because i dismissed it as I don't want auto translate, i want it to see the multiple languages
#
ben_thatmustbeme (unless its a language i don't know at all, which isn't in my feed ever really)
#
ben_thatmustbeme oh there it is. G+ does as well
#
ben_thatmustbeme just at the end of the post, not where i expected it
#
ben_thatmustbeme small footer text
#
ben_thatmustbeme all of which work without even specifying language. just autorecognizes foreign text. probably requires looking up verious words in every dictionary
#
melvster im sure facebook would love to have this feature, translations are a relatively new thing for them, it's one of the few things you can point to where open standards are the state of the art, and other play catch up, as opposed to it normally being the other way round
#
melvster it's nice to actually be *better* than facebook in something
#
melvster rather than playing catchup
#
melvster ill see if i can make a demo, but from the arguments here, I can see the reasons to -1 removing it from the sped, Id probably be a -0.1
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: huh. Why would Facebook want this exactly? They have it just don't auto translate everything
#
melvster bing translate is new and doesnt work too well
#
melvster its perhaps facebooks least polished area
#
melvster having a lot of czech friends
#
melvster i use it a lot
#
melvster and the translations are pretty terrible
#
melvster one other thing
#
melvster all standards work is dominated by english
#
melvster many people read but do not post
#
melvster i think many foreign language speakers are intimidated by their own language skills and dont contribute
#
melvster but would be able to do so in their native language
#
melvster so a) we hear less from non english speaksers and their needs b) we get less input
#
melvster imagine if posts could be queued and there was a translation service to add text in english but you write it in your native language
#
melvster that last part was mainly an observation / aside
#
ben_thatmustbeme melvster: this is just a matter of good autotranslate. Nothing in the spec needed
#
melvster ben_thatmustbeme: I hear you, i can see both arguments
#
melvster and id love to see a good auto translate
shepazu, elf-pavlik, LCyrin and bblfish joined the channel