2015-06-23 UTC
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# 12:37 melvster rhiaro: your PhD sounds interesting, does it have a title/topic? # 12:43 melvster it seems to me in trying to implement the use cases, there would be a benefit in a common understanding of following, and in implementing following, there would be a benefit in a common understanding of profiles # 12:45 melvster it was the post on profiles that started off a lot of innovation leading to openid, activity streams and other technologies bblfish joined the channel
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# 15:41 rhiaro I assume it's just call the number and see what happens.. tantek joined the channel
# 16:03 sandro or you can use the webex client, on many platforms (ie use it on linux and android). And you can have it dialout to you if you want to use POTS and not pay. tantek and almereyda joined the channel
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# 16:50 sandro NEW phone number: +1-617-324-0000 There is a meeting number: 642 112 960 The password is 'socl'. Or use the Webex app. # 16:51 hhalpin are folks having trouble with webex? # 16:52 sandro I guess I'll be on Zakim, too, telling people to move to webex. # 16:52 hhalpin its also possible people will all just dial in at 13:00 # 16:52 Loqi I added a countdown for 6/23 1:00pm (#5698) # 16:52 sandro And we should change the agenda to say dont use zakim # 16:52 hhalpin i did add webex to agenda btw # 16:54 hhalpin yes, again i guess we should never underestimate people's ability to be confused. feel free to delete tantek joined the channel
# 16:55 ben_thatmustbeme hhalpin: actually you added it to last weeks agenda. i moved those changes to this week :P hhalpin_ joined the channel
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# 16:58 Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot # 17:01 wilkie I missed last week's meeting because I forgot how time zones worked. ironically, I was writing social network code. # 17:01 sandro Hello....??? Three of us on Webex.... Now four # 17:02 eprodrom Well, that's going to be terrible # 17:03 cwebber2 tsyesika: rhiaro: I'll be interested if you have luck with the SIP stuff # 17:04 rhiaro cwebber2: I have no idea how to connect with sip, every client I tried needs a sip address not a number. I didn't realise. # 17:04 rhiaro is sorry for leaving it to the last mintue.... # 17:05 eprodrom Is there anyone who can scribe? # 17:06 eprodrom scribenick: sandro # 17:07 eprodrom PROPOSAL: approve minutes for 16 June 2015 # 17:08 rhiaro apparently doesn't own a device compatible with anything so far # 17:08 wilkie there seems to be a few in irc not on call too harry joined the channel
# 17:09 harry sorry, locked self out of office - dialing in now # 17:10 cwebber2 also, I'm looking online for any evidence that there's support for SIP in webex # 17:10 sandro jasnell: I created an updated editors draft and publication candidate using the mf2 examples added back in, with a note about accuracy # 17:11 sandro jasnell: If they continue to be incorrect/unchecked we should look at removing them in the future, but we can publish like this # 17:11 tantek we need more volunteers to help fix examples! # 17:11 sandro ben_thatmustbeme: I have a large pull request queud up with corrections # 17:11 wilkie I've never successfully used SIP ~ever~ and have resorted to using skype, which is a cheap compromise for me # 17:12 sandro eprodrom: lets return to the agenda. The question of whether we can meet without certain people seems to have been addressed. # 17:12 wilkie no, with the old zakim stuff. could never get it to work. # 17:12 eprodrom RESOLVED: approve minutes of 16 June 2015 Arnaud_ joined the channel
# 17:12 harry I think W3C SIP is down, so you may want to try WebEx SIP # 17:12 harry I'd be interested if anyone got it working # 17:13 cwebber2 I couldn't find any instructions for connecting to it, if it exists # 17:13 sandro eprodrom: Any progress on open issues or actions that people want to report? # 17:13 harry There's the WebEx App, which is basically VoIP # 17:14 harry It is a good point we should have an open-source/free software SIP, I'll bring that up Systems Team # 17:14 harry ACTION: hhalpin to ask if open-source/free software SIP exists for W3C # 17:14 trackbot Created ACTION-68 - Ask if open-source/free software sip exists for w3c [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-06-30]. # 17:14 sandro jasnell: I posed a commit saying they're non-normative, etc. # 17:16 harry I mean, it's for W3C's WebEx, so it's the organization not Zakim. # 17:17 sandro jasnell: they're in there but not correct. we're ready to publish. # 17:17 tantek what about ben_thatmustbeme's patch to fix them? # 17:17 sandro jasnell: second issue is for MD and RDFa examples as well -- they do not necessarily reflect best practice. # 17:17 tantek ben_thatmustbeme, what's the URL of your patch to fix the examples? # 17:18 sandro jasnell: in MF2, some of the class names are just made up, not what people actually are doing. those all need to be reviewed. # 17:18 tantek for MD and RDFa - just add a warning for those too dromasca joined the channel
# 17:18 sandro eprodrom: jasnell, what's the delta from the previous WG? Is it worth doing a new version? # 17:18 harry We genereally want to publish a new WG every 3 months # 17:19 sandro jasnell: Yes. That was January. Significant changes in extended vocabulary # 17:19 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: is that ready to merge? or how long do you need to make it merge ready? # 17:19 rhiaro I'll help with fixing microformats examples, sorry I didn't get chance to look at it this week # 17:19 sandro harry: WG's are supposed to publish a WD every three months # 17:20 Zakim sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is # 17:20 Zakim On IRC I see dromasca, Arnaud_, harry, Zakim, RRSAgent, eprodrom, tantek, almereyda, jasnell, bblfish, the_frey_, Arnaud, melvster, KevinMarks, sandro, cwebber2, wseltzer, wilkie, # 17:20 Zakim ... ben_thatmustbeme, shepazu, rhiaro, raucao, kylewm, tsyesika, dwhly, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, bigbluehat, JakeHart, mattl, bret, tommorris_, tet, aaronpk, Loqi, oshepherd, # 17:20 tantek good, so we have at least two more volunteers to help fix microformats examples: rhiaro and ben_thatmustbeme and me makes three # 17:20 tantek so let's close that issue - we have 3 volunteers to fix microformats examples # 17:21 harry So assuming the microformat review is non-controversial, we could publish next week and then have a new WD out in early July # 17:21 sandro eprodrom: Can we review this new ED over the next week. # 17:21 ben_thatmustbeme tantek: not yet, it would not take much, I should be able to get it mergable tonight if I have the time # 17:21 sandro jasnell: Yes, and I can see about switching to echidna during that time. # 17:21 rhiaro is in theory connected but can't hear anything # 17:22 sandro eprodrom: I'll put the decision on the agenda for next week # 17:22 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme, multiple "natural" languages in the AS 2.0? # 17:23 sandro ben_thatmustbeme: Not sure this is an issue any more... # 17:24 sandro ben_thatmustbeme: THe need for multiuple natural languages in a single activity. No user stories include it. No systems I know that use it. I was suggesting removing it. # 17:25 sandro ben_thatmustbeme: I think it's complex enough that I don't know how to solve it. # 17:25 tantek we should drop features from AS2 that have zero presence in any user stories and zero silo equivalent feature implementations # 17:25 sandro jasnell: Multi language support is a feature of json-ld. We inherit support even if we don't say anything. This is trying to scope it a bit, to say it's only meaningul in particular cntext # 17:26 tantek we don't inherit support because we don't require consuming code to support JSONLD # 17:26 sandro .. That said, the use cases for this are fairly specific. I've used it for translation of activities # 17:27 sandro .. I see there are some issues with translation to MF2 and MD, which are more presentation oriented. # 17:27 harry I do think multiple language support is important, the W3C really wants to support internationalization in general # 17:27 sandro .. I think it's okay that some things don't translate perfectly, but I think it's important to keep it. # 17:27 tsyesika I think being able to express content in multiple languages is important for multilingual people with followers who understand different language(s) # 17:27 harry Now, the details of how it transforms into any non-normative alternative syntax is to me not a big deal. # 17:28 sandro eprodrom: Is it possible to continue using JSON-LD without this feature # 17:28 sandro ben_thatmustbeme: We don't have to mention it in the spec. I don't want it to be required. # 17:28 sandro jasnell: It's already out there, scoped to four fields. # 17:29 sandro jasnell: It's a requirement for consumers, not publishers. # 17:29 sandro jasnell: It's a bit of a pain for non-json-ld, I guess, but not that much. # 17:29 sandro ben_thatmustbeme: I'm looking for ways to simplify things for WG, reducing test cases, etc. # 17:30 sandro jasnell: I don't see it as adding much complexity. # 17:30 tsyesika I think the current state of things being able to express things in multiple languages is really useful # 17:30 sandro jasnell: As far as I'm concerned it doesn't add complexity. # 17:31 sandro eprodrom: It sounds like we have a use case not yet captured. Is it possible to capture it? # 17:31 wilkie as an implementor, I'd feel rather bad not including support for multiple language posts, and worried that the IG was just biased to miss this use-case # 17:31 tantek as an implementer, I feel bad waiting to ship because someone required features that no one has ever built before # 17:31 sandro eprodrom: Sounds like there's some use case that maybe just needs to be captured. # 17:31 sandro tantek, jasnell says it's deployed in products # 17:32 wilkie tantek: oh tantek, you poor over-worked coder :) # 17:32 bblfish I think Ann Basseti made a case for languages and internationalisation # 17:32 tsyesika I am beginging to use this on my implementation, i have seen it used on facebook when before i closed my facebook account # 17:32 eprodrom ACTION jsnell document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in AS 2.0 # 17:32 trackbot Created ACTION-69 - Document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in as 2.0 [on James Snell - due 2015-06-30]. # 17:32 wilkie tantek: your passive aggression is on point today!! of course, what is the point if you ship something only people a lot like us can use # 17:33 tantek so there's a new use-case in More User Stories then? URL? # 17:33 harry just was going to point out W3C supports internationalization in general, see how multiple language support in past was added to XML, RDF, etc. # 17:33 tantek wilkie - what's the point in current silos who reach billions of people? clearly they must all be "people a lot like us" # 17:33 harry So I'd be worried if this was removed completely. # 17:34 harry We've had some applications - one is Samuel from OKFN from the D-CENT project # 17:35 harry The City of Helsinki plans to implement some internal social software # 17:35 harry that will also have some public-facing AS2.0 endpoints # 17:35 wilkie tantek: you are so concerned with what already exists. besides, twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case. # 17:35 sandro eprodrom: Sorry for the delay, chairs will deal with it before next week # 17:35 tantek wilkie - documentation of "twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case."? # 17:35 harry not sure if there's been any updates since? # 17:36 rhiaro I started putting together this strawman API doc thingy # 17:36 Arnaud_ if we were silent on the multilanguage issue it becomes a quality of the implementation rather than a requirement # 17:36 rhiaro is still fiddling with apps and browser extensions to try to connect # 17:36 eprodrom rhiaro, are you on the call? # 17:36 eprodrom Anyone on the call who can give an update # 17:36 sandro eprodrom: Anyone on call who can give an update # 17:36 tantek I think the last call / minutes gave a good update # 17:37 sandro harry: Last week we talked about folks brainstorming and trying to implement # 17:37 sandro harry:We need drafts by next F2F at absolute latest # 17:37 bblfish sorry, did not get around to contribute this week. It's on my list. # 17:38 sandro harry: We want people to add to Brainstorming doc # 17:38 tantek wilkie++ thanks wilkie - appreciate the reference # 17:39 harry shepazu, maybe an update from the Annotations work would be in order if possible? # 17:39 sandro tantek: Brainstorming document looks good. We need to keep encouraging progress. I'd like to continue down that path, rather than an arbitrary deadline, like 1st draft by tpac. # 17:40 sandro harry: I'm just trying to remind folks of our charter schedule # 17:40 sandro tantek: Worst thing is to publish a std prematurely # 17:40 sandro harry: I agree, but we do need to provide some evidence of progress the_frey joined the channel
# 17:41 harry It's not a PR problem, it's a management issue # 17:42 sandro sandro: The AC has a duty to review what we're doing, it's not a PR question # 17:42 harry Anyways, we are in scope, but we have had lots of groups go off charter and fail to deliver, so we just need to show signs of progress. # 17:42 sandro jasnell: How is a WD prematurely shipping a spec # 17:42 sandro tantek: The world considers a WD shipping a spec # 17:42 harry There's differences in philosophy here, the important thing is to be making progress :) # 17:43 sandro eprodrom: Our current brainstorming document isn't something that can be implemented --- we want to get something closer to implementable # 17:44 sandro cwebber2: rhiaro is working on building a straw document, micropump.md # 17:44 sandro .. needs help from solid, to be micropumplid.md :-) # 17:44 bblfish Sorry again, for not having spent time last week on this document. I am getting towards it. # 17:45 rhiaro bblfish: I started adding a bit of SoLiD into the brainstorming README, I hope that helps # 17:45 sandro cwebber2: I've been doing do experiments in guile/scheme building toward activitypump # 17:48 tantek sandro: there's some very complicated things going on there # 17:48 tantek sandro: my allegiance is making something that really works well here # 17:49 tantek henry: so you want to do like LDP, join last 3 months and make a lot of comments and noise? # 17:49 tantek evan: we are done with this conversation, if you (henry) want to talk to sandro about participation in this group that's something you can do offline. # 17:49 bblfish well its worrying if sandro who is in a solid position is undermining solid # 17:49 tantek evan: we do need contributions from people interested in SoLiD contributing to the brainstorming document # 17:49 bblfish not sure if it is woth me fighting this battle alone # 17:49 tantek evan: we do want to consider it at least in principle # 17:50 harry For example, I'm still working my head around SoLID as well - and wouldn't comment on it until I have a better understanding # 17:50 cwebber2 bblfish, we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time # 17:50 shepazu thought this was the Social Web WG, not the Antisocial Web WG :P # 17:50 tantek evan: if you want to see SoLiD come out as part of the Social API then it behooves you to participate in this brainstorming # 17:50 melvster i already raised an issue to the doc last week which rhiaro fixed already # 17:50 tantek henry: it's not really interesting, I don't really see the point here # 17:50 tantek henry: trying to fight a battle where most people are trying to go the other way is a complete waste of time # 17:51 tantek harry: can we get a quick update from schepers? # 17:51 jasnell thank you for ending that particular conversation # 17:51 tantek evan: doug if you are on the call and you don't mind giving us an update # 17:51 sandro tantek, thanks for scribing. too in shock to scribe. # 17:51 bblfish it is productive for me cwebber2. I just found out that if I participate I'll get no help from Sandro. So I'd just be wasting my time. Unless others want to support me. # 17:51 harry shepazu, have time for a quick update on Annotations? When should look at the draft annotation specs? What's the dependencies? # 17:51 tantek shepazu: we separated our web annotation group into separate areas # 17:52 tantek shepazu: one is data model, given a message, what is the formatting # 17:52 tantek shepazu: our default serialization is JSONLD, you can also use turtle, some of us are interested in HTML as well, e.g. using microformats # 17:52 tantek shepazu: somehow mapping the data model to indicators in HTML # 17:52 tantek shepazu: this is basically LDP with some bits bolted on # 17:53 bblfish cwebber: > we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time < yes, I am interested in helping but only if I get more support. I am not interested in working for free for nothing. # 17:53 tantek shepazu: main difference is that LDP has a should re: default no accept headers is sent, it should be turtle, we are saying JSONLD instead with a MUST # 17:53 rhiaro bblfish, those of us who are contributing are doing so because we care about a particular technology and working for convergence, all of us 'working for free' currently # 17:53 tantek shepazu: we're about to publish that, the annotation protocol, probably next week, as a first public WD # 17:53 tantek shepazu: the 3rd thing is the range finder API # 17:53 tantek shepazu: the idea is that given any kind of text # 17:53 bblfish yes, but unless there is a team supporting me, its not helpful to work on something. # 17:54 tantek shepazu: you want to point to a particular section of text # 17:54 tantek shepazu: we made rangefinder API - sort of like a find in page API # 17:54 tantek shepazu: later on there will be a URL syntax that will take advantage of this # 17:54 eprodrom bblfish, sandro please take this discussion out of channel # 17:54 tantek shepazu: it's a way that fragmentions could be re-ified in the browser # 17:54 tantek shepazu: we have other things going on as well # 17:54 tantek shepazu: all of this is geared towards, you can put the pieces together and it will make an annotation client # 17:55 tantek sandro feel free to take over again - I just stepped in while you were speaking # 17:55 tantek sandro: I'm trying to understand how AS2 works with this # 17:55 sandro shepazu: It's a big goal NOT to conflict with what you're doing # 17:55 tantek shepazu: our goal is to not conflict, and to re-use # 17:56 sandro shepazu: If there's something that can be generalized beyond annotations, that's what we want to do # 17:56 sandro shepazu: We're just trying to put any necessary building blocks in place # 17:56 sandro eprodrom: You mentiooned the protocol, which sounds like the main overlap. Is there an ED? # 17:57 sandro eprodrom: that looks like a kind of old draft.... maybe the date's wrong? # 17:58 rhiaro q+ to ask (in irc) if the current pending IE applications ahve been looked at # 17:59 bblfish I should look at Annotations Protocol. I am sure I'd like to use it. # 17:59 sandro eprodrom: So I'll take a look at that protocol, and I hope everyone else does, too. # 17:59 tantek thank you shepazu for the overview and summary! # 17:59 cwebber2 thanks for scribing sandro (and tantek for filling in) # 18:01 sandro ben_thatmustbeme, harry's the moderator of this call right now. # 18:07 harry no worries, we are just going through IE stuff # 18:15 bblfish rhiaro the problem is not working for free, the problem is "working for nothing" tantek joined the channel
# 18:21 rhiaro It sounds like you're worried about people arbitrarily ignoring your contributions # 18:21 rhiaro For me, and others, the result we want is interoperable decentralised social web systems, one way or another. Not the elevation of a particular technology. # 18:21 rhiaro We want to make something work; nobody is going to ignore good contributions for no reason # 18:24 tantek wilkie - I've said it before and I'll say it again, really glad you are here and for all your contributions. # 18:26 bblfish Look as sandro and Harry said its a question of how one invests one's time. If Sandro and Arnaud are not here interested in working on this document, and Tantek says its not really important that anything be ready by next F2F, then one has to consider the possibility that the work they have given you is just a political game to make people do something that the group does not really want to invest in. Now I can invest my time just doing SoLiD o # 18:26 bblfish r working with a group that does not really want to work together. So I am happy to find how these things can work together, but without support I am not sure how much time I should put into this. Sandro thinks any time put into this document is too much of his time. # 18:27 bblfish I mean I can also sit back and agree with "whatever consensus the working group comes to". # 18:28 harry Lots of people in this group are working together productively, but everyone has time constraints. I would try to be more polite next time and have these kinds of conversations in private. # 18:29 bblfish Look sandro wrote above: "sandro: bblfish, don't count on me for that" # 18:32 rhiaro bblfish: Nobody is demanding you help out. If you don't have time, just say so as others have. You can still follow the group without working on the spec # 18:33 rhiaro We just have a general call for help with SoLiD, it doesn't matter particularly *who* helps # 18:48 bblfish rhiaro: yes, I understand. I am trying to find others who back supporting that document, that is who are willing to invest time in it. melvster joined the channel
# 19:44 melvster harry: what happens if the works draft isnt ready by the F2F? # 19:45 harry The AC may ask what precisely the WG is doing with its time # 19:46 melvster harry: who's the AC? I presume AS2 is a deliverable that's on track still? # 19:46 harry At W3C, we're starting to move to close groups that aren't productive. # 19:47 harry the process is exceedingly well documented in the W3C process doc # 19:52 melvster harry: ah I by AC you mean advisory committee, well imho AS2 is looking good, independent of the other deliverables elf-pavlik and tantek joined the channel
# 20:16 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed the_frey joined the channel
# 20:21 melvster rhiaro: thanks for adding the SoLiD sections to the brainstorming doc # 20:22 rhiaro melvster, does that help you see how more SoLiD sections can be added? # 20:25 melvster rhiaro: I can make some minor edits just reading thru the page # 20:25 melvster rhiaro: just a stylistic question 'We are not trying to re-standardize identity on the web' -- why RE standardize, is the implication that identity is *already* standardized someplace? # 20:26 rhiaro Oh you're reading a different doc to the one I thought # 20:26 rhiaro Well, there have been many attempts to standardize.. the_frey and bblfish joined the channel
# 20:26 rhiaro yeah the README is the 'brainstorming doc', micropump.md is ... whatever we're calling it. Strawman SocialAPI draft. # 20:27 rhiaro WebID? OpenID? various social networks trying to make their one login to rule them all? # 20:27 rhiaro Though I wrote that off the top of my head half an hour before the call tonight, don't read too much into it # 20:28 melvster rhiaro: ok great, openid is really a verification protocol, not an identity protocol (ironically given the name!) # 20:29 melvster iirc in openid you can have an http url, an xri, or an email address as your identifier # 20:29 melvster but it's a small section in one of the specs, and it's changed a lot # 20:32 melvster if that's a question, a webid isnt tied to foaf, it could be a schema.org Person, a facebook ogp person or any other type of agent (agent being the super class of people and bots) # 20:33 melvster in the webid+tls spec foaf:agent is used I think in the range of some of the vocab classes, bblfish will know better, tho there's not a real need to be that specific # 20:33 melvster tl;dr to answer the question, SoLiD can accept any type of person URI for identity # 20:34 melvster np, i only mentioned it because of the ? there, im happy to answer questions # 20:39 melvster rhiaro: re: the content reading and writing, it's quite difficult to compare SoLiD to an API ... because in SoLiD, just like the web, *any* page can be a resource for reading or for writing ... # 20:40 melvster we dont have specific inboxes and outboxes, but we could make some, if we knew what to implement # 20:42 melvster and other clients can watch that directory via a websocket # 20:42 melvster so i could fire up a directory now as easily as creating a directory on my desktop, then I could give you permission to watch it # 20:43 melvster but actually already in SoLiD you can POST AS2 to any directory, read it, or create it via PUT # 20:44 melvster it's like a super set of the functionality in the API # 20:46 melvster so perhaps we could make commonly used directories for AS2 for 'inbox' and 'outbox' # 20:46 melvster or if AS2 defines "inbox" and "Outbox" we just reuse that # 20:55 melvster tantek: would indieweb people be open to implementing inboxes and outboxes? # 20:59 melvster aaronpk: tho isnt there only so much content you can put on your homepage? # 21:00 melvster harry: We've had some applications - one is Samuel from OKFN from the D-CENT project -- pointers please! # 21:00 aaronpk yes, it falls off after a "while", only new stuff is there # 21:00 aaronpk once I have more "activity-like" things on my home page i'm going to make it paged # 21:01 aaronpk the actual pagination scheme is up to the server and opaque to clients # 21:04 melvster aaronpk: it was a proposed system (by timbl) to say that a page returns content, but also has links to a bigger data set, e.g. that its one page in a set, and how to get to the other content # 21:05 aaronpk and can be done in either the http header or in the response body # 21:08 rhiaro Presumably pump.io/ActivityPump handle pagination of the outbox and don't expect to deliver everything at once # 21:08 aaronpk melvster: I should point out that my "pagination" is not actually done by page number, but by absolute offsets, so the contents of my pages never change # 21:09 aaronpk but that is opaque to clients because they just follow rel=next/prev # 21:18 tantek melvster: up to each indieweb person and their site - if having a concept of inbox/outbox is an itch they want to scratch then they might look into it. # 21:18 tantek however, as aaronpk said, for current indieweb sites, there's no need for a separate inbox/outbox abstraction. # 21:18 tantek as webmention endpoint / homepage h-feed already satisfy the needs # 21:20 melvster tantek: yes SoLiD is the same way, *but* we could implement inbox/outbox if it was a requirement of the spec # 21:20 rhiaro I mapped webmention endpoint / homepage to inbox / outbox [in my head | on some braindump document] # 21:20 aaronpk yea that idea has been floating around for a while now jasnell and jasnell_ joined the channel
# 21:43 oshepherd aaronpk: pump.io does rel=next/prev (encoded in JSON links collection) pagination of its' collections too # 21:44 oshepherd I think for ActivityPump/ActivityStreams I prefer rel=next/prev as link headers as it removes "representation metadata" from the actual content # 21:45 melvster what I am tending to do for instant messaging is to have one container per day, each day contains all the posts for that day # 21:45 oshepherd pump.io also uses absolute pagination, fwiw (specifically you ask for all things /since/ a given object ID) # 21:48 oshepherd Absolute pagination is a MUST IMO since it's essnetial to the way some clients operate # 21:48 oshepherd (My client, Impeller, is a "sync" style client - that is, it stores a local copy of your feed like an E-Mail client does) almereyda, tantek, harry, jasnell and melvster joined the channel
# 23:39 tantek melvster - the difference is that indieweb folks implement stuff because they're scratching a personal practical itch, not because "if it was a requirement of the spec" # 23:41 melvster tantek: yeah that's one thing i really like about indieweb, but if the w3c comes out with a social spec, I'll probably implement it, assuming I dont have to drop something else # 23:43 melvster tantek: pretty much everything I implement is scratching an itch, just stuff that I found no place else so I just thought, OK, I'll build it myself # 23:43 melvster web 2.0 can get you 80% of what you need, but it's that 20% that hurts me # 23:43 melvster tantek: in fact the web itself was a 'scratching an itch' project # 23:47 tantek right - which is why I think any specs the W3C develops, social or otherwise, ought to also be scratching very specific itches, or rather based on what has been *proven* by people/implementers scratching their own itches # 23:47 tantek instead of the classic spec model of political aspirational consensus first, implementation second # 23:48 almereyda Loqi, how much karma do I have? # 23:48 melvster tantek: I hear what you are a saying, but I think you may be jaded from listening to opinionated people without implementation experience # 23:48 tantek not jaded, but rather emboldened, by finding that working with implementers you can get things done, even semi-independently, without having to worry about armchair architects that don't actually build or ship anything ever # 23:49 melvster tantek: I generally agree, but I dont take such an extreme position. There some people with great knowledge, that you can learn lots from even if they are not coding day in and day out. # 23:50 tantek great knowledge rarely exists in the absence of great (implementation) experience # 23:50 tantek that being said, we can learn from anyone who has an itch # 23:50 tantek whether or not they can or do scratch it themselves # 23:52 melvster tankek: i used to run a fantasy football forum ... everyone has an opinion but most people never will anything and will never win anything ... some people say 10%-20% have consistently good opinions, thats rare, you learn to listen to them ... most of the time this correlates well with good results back and forward ... from working on the web I do think implementation experience counts for a lot, but maybe not 100% more like 80% in my book # 23:55 melvster tantek: you need a good architecture to scale, then it comes with iteration ... there are many many examples of systems that dont scale, the web is a RARE exception # 23:56 tantek no you need iteration to scale. you never hear about the prematurely overarchitected solutions that never ship or are too cumbersome for the simple initial use-cases to get any uptake. # 23:56 tantek what scales is what first succeeds, then rapidly iterates. # 23:56 tantek succefuly sclaing architectures are evolved, not designed 100% a priori # 23:58 tantek HTML, HTTP, and URL being prime examples, as opposed to all the massively overarchitected hypertext system designs that preceded them
Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-06-23]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84768&oldid=84753
rhiaro melvster: sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't... :) http://rhiaro.co.uk/2012/10/phd-informatics
melvster rhiaro: this post may be an interesting reference for your work : http://lj-dev.livejournal.com/683939.html
ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i think rhiaro sent an email, and there is a short one on the agenda
hhalpin are folks having trouble with webex?
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/23-social-irc
jasnell with the commit I made this morning, action-34 can be closed. http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34
sandro looking for pictures of echidna, finds http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-y8fe8aK_QzY/Tkr5Yutx3jI/AAAAAAAABdY/4oTPtagFAEg/s400/echidna.jpg
tsyesika for what it's worth http://tsyesika.se/feed I've started manually writing my ActivityPump feed before I have got my software ready, that's using it
wilkie tantek: https://support.twitter.com/articles/20172132-tweet-translation not to mention people who have multiple accounts so to have an english account
aaronpk points out he implemented a micropub endpoint based off https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412 last weekend
bblfish Look as sandro and Harry said its a question of how one invests one's time. If Sandro and Arnaud are not here interested in working on this document, and Tantek says its not really important that anything be ready by next F2F, then one has to consider the possibility that the work they have given you is just a political game to make people do something that the group does not really want to invest in. Now I can invest my time just doing SoLiD o