#social 2015-06-23

2015-06-23 UTC
melvster, the_frey, jasnell, bblfish, edhelas, Arnaud, the_frey_, pfefferle and pfefferle_ joined the channel
bblfish and elf-pavlik joined the channel
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melvster
rhiaro: your PhD sounds interesting, does it have a title/topic?
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rhiaro
melvster: sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't... :) http://rhiaro.co.uk/2012/10/phd-informatics
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melvster
rhiaro: lol
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melvster
this part about social profiles interests me
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melvster
it seems to me in trying to implement the use cases, there would be a benefit in a common understanding of following, and in implementing following, there would be a benefit in a common understanding of profiles
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melvster
rhiaro: this post may be an interesting reference for your work : http://lj-dev.livejournal.com/683939.html
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melvster
it was the post on profiles that started off a lot of innovation leading to openid, activity streams and other technologies
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melvster
yadis was the original codename for openid
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rhiaro
Cool, thanks
bblfish joined the channel
almereyda and jasnell joined the channel
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cwebber2
hello #social
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cwebber2
where are the SIP instructions, does anyone know?
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2: i think rhiaro sent an email, and there is a short one on the agenda
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rhiaro
I assume it's just call the number and see what happens..
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cwebber2
ben_thatmustbeme: rhiaro: aha ok!
tantek joined the channel
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sandro
or you can use the webex client, on many platforms (ie use it on linux and android). And you can have it dialout to you if you want to use POTS and not pay.
tantek and almereyda joined the channel
hhalpin joined the channel
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sandro
I seem to be the only one on webex....
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sandro
NEW phone number: +1-617-324-0000 There is a meeting number: 642 112 960 The password is 'socl'. Or use the Webex app.
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hhalpin
are folks having trouble with webex?
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sandro
I just dont think anyone is trying.
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sandro
I guess I'll be on Zakim, too, telling people to move to webex.
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hhalpin
its also possible people will all just dial in at 13:00
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Loqi
I added a countdown for 6/23 1:00pm (#5698)
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sandro
And we should change the agenda to say dont use zakim
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hhalpin
i did add webex to agenda btw
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sandro
right, but you left Zakim there.
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hhalpin
yes, again i guess we should never underestimate people's ability to be confused. feel free to delete
tantek joined the channel
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sandro
ACTUALLY Zakim isnt working anyway
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rhiaro
lost track of time
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ben_thatmustbeme
hhalpin: actually you added it to last weeks agenda. i moved those changes to this week :P
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wilkie
yay I called in successfully
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh, is that you on there wilkie?
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wilkie
maaaybe??
hhalpin_ joined the channel
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sandro
+Sandro
eprodrom joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
+ben_thatmustbeme
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wilkie
+wilkie
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sandro
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 23 June 2015
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sandro
+Sandro
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Zakim
wonders where Sandro is
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ben_thatmustbeme
+ben_thatmustbeme
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Zakim
wonders where ben_thatmustbeme is
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wilkie
+wilkie
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Zakim
wonders where wilkie is
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wilkie
poor Zakim
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rhiaro
awwww Zakim is so lonely
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wilkie
rude, Loqi
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rhiaro
and Loqi is mocking Zakim..
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wilkie
I missed last week's meeting because I forgot how time zones worked. ironically, I was writing social network code.
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jasnell
attempting to join
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sandro
Hello....??? Three of us on Webex.... Now four
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cwebber2
there's an echo from someone
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cwebber2
I'm on now too
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rhiaro
cwebber what sip software did you use?
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rhiaro
cwebber2
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eprodrom
Well, that's going to be terrible
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sandro
+Sandro
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Zakim
wonders where Sandro is
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eprodrom
+eprodrom
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Zakim
wonders where eprodrom is
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eprodrom
On the phone
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sandro
+jasnell
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Zakim
wonders where jasnell is
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cwebber2
I didn't get to test SIP this time
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cwebber2
I'm hoping to next time
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cwebber2
I ran out of time
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cwebber2
tsyesika: rhiaro: I'll be interested if you have luck with the SIP stuff
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I have no idea how to connect with sip, every client I tried needs a sip address not a number. I didn't realise.
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rhiaro
is sorry for leaving it to the last mintue....
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wilkie
I can scribe
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eprodrom
Is there anyone who can scribe?
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ben_thatmustbeme
sorry, was afk
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wilkie
that's fine with me!!
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eprodrom
scribenick: sandro
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wilkie
thanks sandro
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jasnell
how many people are actually on the call??
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jasnell
there appear to be only 6
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eprodrom
PROPOSAL: approve minutes for 16 June 2015
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ben_thatmustbeme
jasnell: 6, it looks like
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eprodrom
+1
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rhiaro
apparently doesn't own a device compatible with anything so far
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rhiaro
is working on it..
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wilkie
there seems to be a few in irc not on call too
harry joined the channel
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harry
sorry, locked self out of office - dialing in now
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sandro
scribe: sandro
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cwebber2
rhiaro: :(
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cwebber2
also, I'm looking online for any evidence that there's support for SIP in webex
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cwebber2
I don't see any
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sandro
jasnell: I created an updated editors draft and publication candidate using the mf2 examples added back in, with a note about accuracy
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tantek
great
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sandro
jasnell: If they continue to be incorrect/unchecked we should look at removing them in the future, but we can publish like this
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tantek
we need more volunteers to help fix examples!
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harry
thanks jasnell!
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sandro
ben_thatmustbeme: I have a large pull request queud up with corrections
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wilkie
I've never successfully used SIP ~ever~ and have resorted to using skype, which is a cheap compromise for me
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harry
wilkie, did you try SIP with WebEx?
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sandro
eprodrom: lets return to the agenda. The question of whether we can meet without certain people seems to have been addressed.
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sandro
eprodrom: so we are meeting.
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ben_thatmustbeme
sorry, didn't mean to digress there
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wilkie
no, with the old zakim stuff. could never get it to work.
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wilkie
harry: nope
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eprodrom
RESOLVED: approve minutes of 16 June 2015
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sandro
eprodrom: Minutes of 16 june approved
Arnaud_ joined the channel
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harry
I think W3C SIP is down, so you may want to try WebEx SIP
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harry
I'd be interested if anyone got it working
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cwebber2
harry: *is* there a webex SIP?
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cwebber2
I couldn't find any instructions for connecting to it, if it exists
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sandro
eprodrom: Any progress on open issues or actions that people want to report?
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tsyesika
i can't find any info on webex sip
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harry
There's the WebEx App, which is basically VoIP
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sandro
s/harry:/harry,/
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cwebber2
harry: but that's proprietary
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harry
yes, indeed it is sadly enough.
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harry
s/harry://
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jasnell
with the commit I made this morning, action-34 can be closed. http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34
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harry
Anyways, there's always @cwebber2 syntax
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harry
It is a good point we should have an open-source/free software SIP, I'll bring that up Systems Team
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cwebber2
harry, thank you!
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harry
ACTION: hhalpin to ask if open-source/free software SIP exists for W3C
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trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent
records action 1
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trackbot
Created ACTION-68 - Ask if open-source/free software sip exists for w3c [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-06-30].
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sandro
jasnell: I posed a commit saying they're non-normative, etc.
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sandro
s/posed/posted/
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harry
I mean, it's for W3C's WebEx, so it's the organization not Zakim.
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harry
Given Zakim no longer exists :)
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sandro
fixed
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sandro
topic: MF2 examples in AS2
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sandro
jasnell: they're in there but not correct. we're ready to publish.
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tantek
what about ben_thatmustbeme's patch to fix them?
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sandro
jasnell: second issue is for MD and RDFa examples as well -- they do not necessarily reflect best practice.
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme, what's the URL of your patch to fix the examples?
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sandro
jasnell: in MF2, some of the class names are just made up, not what people actually are doing. those all need to be reviewed.
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tantek
for MD and RDFa - just add a warning for those too
dromasca joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: they are not in yet, but i have a branch for mf2 fixes
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tantek
and a call for practitioners to submit fixes
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sandro
tantek, he's talking about down the road
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harry
+1 ben_thatmustbeme
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sandro
eprodrom: jasnell, what's the delta from the previous WG? Is it worth doing a new version?
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harry
We genereally want to publish a new WG every 3 months
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tantek
s/WG/WD
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sandro
jasnell: Yes. That was January. Significant changes in extended vocabulary
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sandro
.. like dropping some object types
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sandro
.. shifting around properties
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Arnaud_
I'm listening with a crippled env
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ben_thatmustbeme
current work
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: is that ready to merge? or how long do you need to make it merge ready?
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rhiaro
I'll help with fixing microformats examples, sorry I didn't get chance to look at it this week
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sandro
harry: WG's are supposed to publish a WD every three months
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Arnaud_
did you guys recorded attendees?
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eprodrom
ek-KID-na
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sandro
zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
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Zakim
On IRC I see dromasca, Arnaud_, harry, Zakim, RRSAgent, eprodrom, tantek, almereyda, jasnell, bblfish, the_frey_, Arnaud, melvster, KevinMarks, sandro, cwebber2, wseltzer, wilkie,
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Zakim
... ben_thatmustbeme, shepazu, rhiaro, raucao, kylewm, tsyesika, dwhly, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, bigbluehat, JakeHart, mattl, bret, tommorris_, tet, aaronpk, Loqi, oshepherd,
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Zakim
... slvrbckt, trackbot
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tantek
good, so we have at least two more volunteers to help fix microformats examples: rhiaro and ben_thatmustbeme and me makes three
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Arnaud_
has to be done manually now unfortunately
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tantek
so let's close that issue - we have 3 volunteers to fix microformats examples
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sandro
Arnaud, I don't have any idea how
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Arnaud_
present+ Arnaud
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harry
So assuming the microformat review is non-controversial, we could publish next week and then have a new WD out in early July
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sandro
eprodrom: Can we review this new ED over the next week.
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: not yet, it would not take much, I should be able to get it mergable tonight if I have the time
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harry
s/publish/resolve to publish
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sandro
jasnell: Yes, and I can see about switching to echidna during that time.
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rhiaro
+rhiaro
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Zakim
wonders where rhiaro is
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rhiaro
is in theory connected but can't hear anything
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cwebber2
sounds good
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sandro
eprodrom: I'll put the decision on the agenda for next week
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sandro
(everyone) sounds good
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shepazu
present+ shepazu
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rhiaro
It's telling me who is speaking though...
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rhiaro
present+ rhiaro
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eprodrom
ben_thatmustbeme, multiple "natural" languages in the AS 2.0?
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sandro
topic: Multiple Natural Languages in AS2
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sandro
ben_thatmustbeme: Not sure this is an issue any more...
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melvster
FYI : example from spec:
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melvster
"displayNameMap": {
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melvster
"en": "Martin added a new video to his album.",
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melvster
"ga": "Martin phost le fisean nua a albam."
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sandro
ben_thatmustbeme: THe need for multiuple natural languages in a single activity. No user stories include it. No systems I know that use it. I was suggesting removing it.
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sandro
ben_thatmustbeme: I think it's complex enough that I don't know how to solve it.
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tantek
we should drop features from AS2 that have zero presence in any user stories and zero silo equivalent feature implementations
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sandro
jasnell: Multi language support is a feature of json-ld. We inherit support even if we don't say anything. This is trying to scope it a bit, to say it's only meaningul in particular cntext
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sandro
.. ADL's XAPI uses it.
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sandro
.. some others do too
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sandro
.. that's AS1
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tantek
we don't inherit support because we don't require consuming code to support JSONLD
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sandro
.. That said, the use cases for this are fairly specific. I've used it for translation of activities
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tantek
kind of tired of that kind of reasoning
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sandro
.. I see there are some issues with translation to MF2 and MD, which are more presentation oriented.
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harry
I do think multiple language support is important, the W3C really wants to support internationalization in general
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sandro
.. I think it's okay that some things don't translate perfectly, but I think it's important to keep it.
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tsyesika
I think being able to express content in multiple languages is important for multilingual people with followers who understand different language(s)
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tsyesika
I would be opposed to removing it
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harry
Now, the details of how it transforms into any non-normative alternative syntax is to me not a big deal.
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sandro
eprodrom: Is it possible to continue using JSON-LD without this feature
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sandro
ben_thatmustbeme: We don't have to mention it in the spec. I don't want it to be required.
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sandro
jasnell: It's already out there, scoped to four fields.
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Arnaud_
we could be silent about it though
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sandro
jasnell: It's a requirement for consumers, not publishers.
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro
jasnell: It's a bit of a pain for non-json-ld, I guess, but not that much.
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sandro
ben_thatmustbeme: I'm looking for ways to simplify things for WG, reducing test cases, etc.
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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sandro
jasnell: I don't see it as adding much complexity.
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tsyesika
I think the current state of things being able to express things in multiple languages is really useful
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sandro
jasnell: As far as I'm concerned it doesn't add complexity.
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Zakim
sees harry, bblfish on the speaker queue
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Arnaud_
present+ jasnell
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tantek
tries to find a place to call-in
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sandro
eprodrom: It sounds like we have a use case not yet captured. Is it possible to capture it?
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wilkie
as an implementor, I'd feel rather bad not including support for multiple language posts, and worried that the IG was just biased to miss this use-case
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Arnaud_
present+ evanpro
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tantek
as an implementer, I feel bad waiting to ship because someone required features that no one has ever built before
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sandro
eprodrom: Sounds like there's some use case that maybe just needs to be captured.
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Arnaud_
present+ harry
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sandro
tantek, jasnell says it's deployed in products
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Arnaud_
present+ sandro
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wilkie
tantek: oh tantek, you poor over-worked coder :)
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tantek
wilkie - real implementors ship
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tantek
rather than "feel rather bad"
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bblfish
I think Ann Basseti made a case for languages and internationalisation
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jasnell
jsnell
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tsyesika
I am beginging to use this on my implementation, i have seen it used on facebook when before i closed my facebook account
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eprodrom
ACTION jsnell document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in AS 2.0
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trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
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trackbot
Created ACTION-69 - Document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in as 2.0 [on James Snell - due 2015-06-30].
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wilkie
tantek: your passive aggression is on point today!! of course, what is the point if you ship something only people a lot like us can use
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tantek
so there's a new use-case in More User Stories then? URL?
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harry
q- harry
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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harry
just was going to point out W3C supports internationalization in general, see how multiple language support in past was added to XML, RDF, etc.
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tantek
wilkie - what's the point in current silos who reach billions of people? clearly they must all be "people a lot like us"
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harry
So I'd be worried if this was removed completely.
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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harry
We've had some applications - one is Samuel from OKFN from the D-CENT project
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harry
The City of Helsinki plans to implement some internal social software
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sandro
topic: Invited Experts
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harry
that will also have some public-facing AS2.0 endpoints
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harry
[looking for other IE]
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wilkie
tantek: you are so concerned with what already exists. besides, twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case.
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sandro
eprodrom: Sorry for the delay, chairs will deal with it before next week
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sandro
topic: Social API
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harry
We discussed the API heavily last call
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tantek
wilkie - documentation of "twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case."?
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harry
not sure if there's been any updates since?
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
rhiaro might but she isn't able to hear
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tsyesika
for what it's worth http://tsyesika.se/feed I've started manually writing my ActivityPump feed before I have got my software ready, that's using it
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tsyesika
oh we've moved on
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rhiaro
I started putting together this strawman API doc thingy
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Arnaud_
if we were silent on the multilanguage issue it becomes a quality of the implementation rather than a requirement
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tantek
+Tantek
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Zakim
wonders where Tantek is
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rhiaro
is still fiddling with apps and browser extensions to try to connect
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eprodrom
rhiaro, are you on the call?
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sandro
tsyesika, rhiaro are you on call?
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tsyesika
i'm not, i couldn't get things working sorry >.<
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rhiaro
connected on android but had no audio
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eprodrom
Anyone on the call who can give an update
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sandro
eprodrom: Anyone on call who can give an update
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tsyesika
I'm only able to participate via IRC today
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tantek
I think the last call / minutes gave a good update
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rhiaro
It's not in particularly useful shape yet
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cwebber2
eprodrom, harry, see above
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sandro
harry: Last week we talked about folks brainstorming and trying to implement
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sandro
- Doug?
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rhiaro
I'll work more on this https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md this week, hopefully with help from others :)
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tantek
thanks for the links sandro
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sandro
harry:We need drafts by next F2F at absolute latest
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shepazu
sandro?
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bblfish
sorry, did not get around to contribute this week. It's on my list.
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sandro
shepazu, I'm scribing
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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sandro
harry: We want people to add to Brainstorming doc
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shepazu
confused
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wilkie
tantek: https://support.twitter.com/articles/20172132-tweet-translation not to mention people who have multiple accounts so to have an english account
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sandro
harry: Then somehow converge it into a spec
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tantek
wilkie++ thanks wilkie - appreciate the reference
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Loqi
wilkie has 15 karma
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sandro
shepazu, sorry, your name was a paste-o
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shepazu
now unconfused
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harry
shepazu, maybe an update from the Annotations work would be in order if possible?
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shepazu
okay, if you like
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sandro
tantek: Brainstorming document looks good. We need to keep encouraging progress. I'd like to continue down that path, rather than an arbitrary deadline, like 1st draft by tpac.
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ben_thatmustbeme
tries to figure out who call in users 6, 8, and 9 are
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sandro
harry: I'm just trying to remind folks of our charter schedule
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sandro
tantek: Worst thing is to publish a std prematurely
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melvster
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 204 karma
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sandro
harry: I agree, but we do need to provide some evidence of progress
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
the_frey joined the channel
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harry
It's not a PR problem, it's a management issue
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cwebber2
hey can I make a comment :P
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sandro
sandro: The AC has a duty to review what we're doing, it's not a PR question
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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harry
Anyways, we are in scope, but we have had lots of groups go off charter and fail to deliver, so we just need to show signs of progress.
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harry
So far, the convergence is good.
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sandro
jasnell: How is a WD prematurely shipping a spec
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sandro
tantek: The world considers a WD shipping a spec
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harry
There's differences in philosophy here, the important thing is to be making progress :)
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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sandro
eprodrom: Our current brainstorming document isn't something that can be implemented --- we want to get something closer to implementable
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eprodrom
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
points out he implemented a micropub endpoint based off https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412 last weekend
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sandro
cwebber2: rhiaro is working on building a straw document, micropump.md
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sandro
.. needs help from solid, to be micropumplid.md :-)
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rhiaro
thanks cwebber2. https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md <- this is *not* the same brainstorming doc you've seen before
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bblfish
Sorry again, for not having spent time last week on this document. I am getting towards it.
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bblfish
Hope @sandro can help out too
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rhiaro
bblfish: I started adding a bit of SoLiD into the brainstorming README, I hope that helps
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sandro
bblfish, I
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sandro
bblfish, don't count on me for that
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sandro
cwebber2: I've been doing do experiments in guile/scheme building toward activitypump
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bblfish
sandro why are you on this group?
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bblfish
(just a question)
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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sandro
bblfish, to help it succeed. duh.
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eprodrom
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
wait what is going on?
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harry
I'm pretty sure Sandro cares :)
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tantek
I'm very confused
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harry
No one scribes for fun!
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, can you mute
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cwebber2
oops I dropped off
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cwebber2
phone crashed
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tantek
muted
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tantek
I'm VERY confused by this dialog
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tantek
sandro: I'm not a big fan of SoLiD
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tantek
sandro: there's some very complicated things going on there
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro++ not appropriate indeed
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tantek
sandro: there are other people who are
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Loqi
sandro has 15 karma
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tantek
sandro: my allegiance is making something that really works well here
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rhiaro
sandro++
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Loqi
sandro has 16 karma
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tantek
henry: so you want to do like LDP, join last 3 months and make a lot of comments and noise?
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sandro
bblfish, I wrote the LDP charter.
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tantek
evan: we are done with this conversation, if you (henry) want to talk to sandro about participation in this group that's something you can do offline.
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shepazu
bblfish--
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Loqi
bblfish has 10 karma
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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sandro
bblfish--
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Loqi
bblfish has 9 karma
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bblfish
well its worrying if sandro who is in a solid position is undermining solid
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tantek
evan: we do need contributions from people interested in SoLiD contributing to the brainstorming document
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bblfish
not sure if it is woth me fighting this battle alone
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sandro
bblfish, take that up with Tim
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tantek
evan: we do want to consider it at least in principle
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tantek
evan: for what we will come up with
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harry
For example, I'm still working my head around SoLID as well - and wouldn't comment on it until I have a better understanding
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cwebber2
bblfish, we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time
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shepazu
thought this was the Social Web WG, not the Antisocial Web WG :P
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tantek
evan: if you want to see SoLiD come out as part of the Social API then it behooves you to participate in this brainstorming
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tantek
evan: if not, then that's fine too
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cwebber2
shepazu, haha
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melvster
i already raised an issue to the doc last week which rhiaro fixed already
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tantek
henry: it's not really interesting, I don't really see the point here
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tantek
henry: trying to fight a battle where most people are trying to go the other way is a complete waste of time
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tantek
henry: if Sandro is fighting against it
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cwebber2
bblfish, this is not productive
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sandro
I am *not* fighting against it.
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tantek
harry: can we get a quick update from schepers?
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jasnell
thank you for ending that particular conversation
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tantek
evan: let's wrap up this Social API point
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tantek
evan: doug if you are on the call and you don't mind giving us an update
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tantek
schepers: sure
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sandro
tantek, thanks for scribing. too in shock to scribe.
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bblfish
it is productive for me cwebber2. I just found out that if I participate I'll get no help from Sandro. So I'd just be wasting my time. Unless others want to support me.
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harry
shepazu, have time for a quick update on Annotations? When should look at the draft annotation specs? What's the dependencies?
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tantek
shepazu: we separated our web annotation group into separate areas
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tantek
shepazu: one is data model, given a message, what is the formatting
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sandro
bblfish, that's ALSO not what I said bblfish
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tantek
shepazu: our default serialization is JSONLD, you can also use turtle, some of us are interested in HTML as well, e.g. using microformats
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tantek
shepazu: somehow mapping the data model to indicators in HTML
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tantek
shepazu: second thing
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tantek
shepazu: the annotation protocol
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tantek
shepazu: this is basically LDP with some bits bolted on
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bblfish
cwebber: > we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time < yes, I am interested in helping but only if I get more support. I am not interested in working for free for nothing.
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tantek
shepazu: main difference is that LDP has a should re: default no accept headers is sent, it should be turtle, we are saying JSONLD instead with a MUST
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rhiaro
bblfish, those of us who are contributing are doing so because we care about a particular technology and working for convergence, all of us 'working for free' currently
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tantek
shepazu: we're about to publish that, the annotation protocol, probably next week, as a first public WD
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tantek
shepazu: the 3rd thing is the range finder API
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ben_thatmustbeme
ditto to rhiaro
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tantek
shepazu: the idea is that given any kind of text
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bblfish
yes, but unless there is a team supporting me, its not helpful to work on something.
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tantek
shepazu: you want to point to a particular section of text
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bblfish
I'd just be downvoted on every important issue
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tantek
shepazu: we made rangefinder API - sort of like a find in page API
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tantek
shepazu: later on there will be a URL syntax that will take advantage of this
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eprodrom
bblfish, sandro please take this discussion out of channel
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tantek
shepazu: this is similar to fragmentions
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tantek
shepazu: it's a way that fragmentions could be re-ified in the browser
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tantek
shepazu: we have other things going on as well
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tantek
shepazu: all of this is geared towards, you can put the pieces together and it will make an annotation client
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tantek
hopes he's minuting ok
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tantek
sandro feel free to take over again - I just stepped in while you were speaking
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tantek
sandro: I'm trying to understand how AS2 works with this
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tantek
s/sandro/shepazu
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sandro
shepazu: It's a big goal NOT to conflict with what you're doing
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tantek
shepazu: our goal is to not conflict, and to re-use
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sandro
shepazu: If there's something that can be generalized beyond annotations, that's what we want to do
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sandro
shepazu: We're just trying to put any necessary building blocks in place
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sandro
eprodrom: You mentiooned the protocol, which sounds like the main overlap. Is there an ED?
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sandro
shepazu: ... looking ....
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sandro
eprodrom: This sounds a lot like solid
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sandro
Social Linked Data
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sandro
eprodrom: It'd be good compare/contrast
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sandro
eprodrom: that looks like a kind of old draft.... maybe the date's wrong?
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cwebber2
thanks shepazu
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sandro
eprodrom: Please, people try to take a look
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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harry
q- harry
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
ack harry
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
q+ to ask (in irc) if the current pending IE applications ahve been looked at
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Zakim
sees rhiaro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
shepazu++
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Loqi
shepazu has 2 karma
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bblfish
I should look at Annotations Protocol. I am sure I'd like to use it.
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sandro
eprodrom: So I'll take a look at that protocol, and I hope everyone else does, too.
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Loqi
shepazu has 3 karma
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harry
rhiaro, the answer is "no"
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tantek
thank you shepazu for the overview and summary!
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sandro
eprodrom: AOB?
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees rhiaro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
thanks for scribing sandro (and tantek for filling in)
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cwebber2
and thanks for chairing eprodrom
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rhiaro
Thanks harry
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cwebber2
sandro++
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Loqi
sandro has 17 karma
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cwebber2
tantek++
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cwebber2
eprodrom++
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Loqi
tantek has 205 karma
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Loqi
eprodrom has 16 karma
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sandro
ADJOURN
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Arnaud_
ji am on but gotta go
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sandro
(chairs please stay)
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cwebber2
is off now
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wilkie
-wilkie
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cwebber2
have fun chairs
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ben_thatmustbeme
-ben_thatmustbeme
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Arnaud_
you can go ahdad without me
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ben_thatmustbeme
sandro, as moderator you can kick those that are still on too
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sandro
ben_thatmustbeme, harry's the moderator of this call right now.
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bblfish
sandro--
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Loqi
too much karma!
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shepazu
sandro++
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harry
no worries, we are just going through IE stuff
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bblfish
rhiaro the problem is not working for free, the problem is "working for nothing"
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bblfish
ie: for no result.
tantek joined the channel
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rhiaro
bblfish: What is the result you prefer?
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rhiaro
It sounds like you're worried about people arbitrarily ignoring your contributions
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rhiaro
For me, and others, the result we want is interoperable decentralised social web systems, one way or another. Not the elevation of a particular technology.
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wilkie
I appreciate everybody's contributions!
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rhiaro
We want to make something work; nobody is going to ignore good contributions for no reason
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rhiaro
thanks wilkie :)
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tantek
wilkie - I've said it before and I'll say it again, really glad you are here and for all your contributions.
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tantek
in code and in IRC
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wilkie
awwww :')
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Loqi
cute!
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wilkie
same for you!!
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wilkie
much <3 to the room
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bblfish
Look as sandro and Harry said its a question of how one invests one's time. If Sandro and Arnaud are not here interested in working on this document, and Tantek says its not really important that anything be ready by next F2F, then one has to consider the possibility that the work they have given you is just a political game to make people do something that the group does not really want to invest in. Now I can invest my time just doing SoLiD o
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bblfish
r working with a group that does not really want to work together. So I am happy to find how these things can work together, but without support I am not sure how much time I should put into this. Sandro thinks any time put into this document is too much of his time.
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bblfish
I mean I can also sit back and agree with "whatever consensus the working group comes to".
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harry
Lots of people in this group are working together productively, but everyone has time constraints. I would try to be more polite next time and have these kinds of conversations in private.
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bblfish
Look sandro wrote above: "sandro: bblfish, don't count on me for that"
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bblfish
( for helping out on the document )
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bblfish
he said that publically
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bblfish
and this is not the first time
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rhiaro
bblfish: Nobody is demanding you help out. If you don't have time, just say so as others have. You can still follow the group without working on the spec
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rhiaro
We just have a general call for help with SoLiD, it doesn't matter particularly *who* helps
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bblfish
rhiaro: yes, I understand. I am trying to find others who back supporting that document, that is who are willing to invest time in it.
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melvster
harry: what happens if the works draft isnt ready by the F2F?
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melvster
s/works/working
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harry
The AC may ask what precisely the WG is doing with its time
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melvster
harry: who's the AC? I presume AS2 is a deliverable that's on track still?
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harry
At W3C, we're starting to move to close groups that aren't productive.
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harry
Melvin, please read about the W3C.
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melvster
harry: thanks, will do. Sorry to take up your time.
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harry
the process is exceedingly well documented in the W3C process doc
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melvster
harry: ah I by AC you mean advisory committee, well imho AS2 is looking good, independent of the other deliverables
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Zakim
excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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melvster
rhiaro: thanks for adding the SoLiD sections to the brainstorming doc
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rhiaro
RRSAgent, please generate minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/23-social-minutes.html rhiaro
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rhiaro
melvster, does that help you see how more SoLiD sections can be added?
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rhiaro
Also I don't know if they're correct
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rhiaro
Sorry if not! You know what to do :)
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melvster
rhiaro: yes I like it, pretty much all spot on, imho
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rhiaro
I know I left at least one '?' in there..
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melvster
rhiaro: I can make some minor edits just reading thru the page
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melvster
rhiaro: just a stylistic question 'We are not trying to re-standardize identity on the web' -- why RE standardize, is the implication that identity is *already* standardized someplace?
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rhiaro
Oh you're reading a different doc to the one I thought
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rhiaro
Well, there have been many attempts to standardize..
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rhiaro
yeah the README is the 'brainstorming doc', micropump.md is ... whatever we're calling it. Strawman SocialAPI draft.
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melvster
rhiaro: there have? could you say more?
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rhiaro
WebID? OpenID? various social networks trying to make their one login to rule them all?
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rhiaro
Though I wrote that off the top of my head half an hour before the call tonight, don't read too much into it
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melvster
rhiaro: ok great, openid is really a verification protocol, not an identity protocol (ironically given the name!)
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rhiaro
I'm still fuzzy with the details
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melvster
iirc in openid you can have an http url, an xri, or an email address as your identifier
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rhiaro
is learning
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melvster
but it's a small section in one of the specs, and it's changed a lot
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melvster
tho i think the w3c advised not to use xris in specs
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melvster
re: foaf:Agent maybe?
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melvster
if that's a question, a webid isnt tied to foaf, it could be a schema.org Person, a facebook ogp person or any other type of agent (agent being the super class of people and bots)
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melvster
in the webid+tls spec foaf:agent is used I think in the range of some of the vocab classes, bblfish will know better, tho there's not a real need to be that specific
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melvster
tl;dr to answer the question, SoLiD can accept any type of person URI for identity
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rhiaro
cool, thanks for that melvster
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melvster
np, i only mentioned it because of the ? there, im happy to answer questions
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melvster
in particular, SoLiD could use AS : Actor
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melvster
or maybe even mf2 : author
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melvster
if it has a URI
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melvster
rhiaro: re: the content reading and writing, it's quite difficult to compare SoLiD to an API ... because in SoLiD, just like the web, *any* page can be a resource for reading or for writing ...
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melvster
for example when im getting the latest posts I go
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melvster
user -> workspace -> channels -> posts
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melvster
then do a GET on that to get posts
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melvster
this is all through link following
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melvster
ie follow your nose
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melvster
we dont have specific inboxes and outboxes, but we could make some, if we knew what to implement
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melvster
we've talked about inboxes and outboxes before
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melvster
we can POST to any directory
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melvster
and other clients can watch that directory via a websocket
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melvster
so i could fire up a directory now as easily as creating a directory on my desktop, then I could give you permission to watch it
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melvster
but it's not of @type Inbox
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melvster
more opaque than that
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melvster
we could create a special type of directory
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melvster
one for activity streams
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melvster
and say, 'put all your AS2 stuff there'
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melvster
but actually already in SoLiD you can POST AS2 to any directory, read it, or create it via PUT
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melvster
it's like a super set of the functionality in the API
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melvster
so perhaps we could make commonly used directories for AS2 for 'inbox' and 'outbox'
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melvster
that could work
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melvster
or if AS2 defines "inbox" and "Outbox" we just reuse that
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melvster
we could just add those terms to AS2
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melvster
yes that works
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melvster
tantek: would indieweb people be open to implementing inboxes and outboxes?
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aaronpk
my outbox is my home page
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aaronpk
my inbox is my webmention endpoint
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melvster
aaronpk: got it
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melvster
aaronpk: tho isnt there only so much content you can put on your homepage?
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melvster
harry: We've had some applications - one is Samuel from OKFN from the D-CENT project -- pointers please!
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aaronpk
yes, it falls off after a "while", only new stuff is there
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aaronpk
once I have more "activity-like" things on my home page i'm going to make it paged
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melvster
aaronpk: it makes sense
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melvster
aaronpk: any thoughts on how to do pagination?
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aaronpk
rel=next and rel=prev
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melvster
e.g. did you see the thread about HTTP 209?
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aaronpk
the actual pagination scheme is up to the server and opaque to clients
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melvster
oh yeah it's blank for me too now
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melvster
LDP has pagination I think
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aaronpk
no i have not heard of http 209
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melvster
aaronpk: it was a proposed system (by timbl) to say that a page returns content, but also has links to a bigger data set, e.g. that its one page in a set, and how to get to the other content
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melvster
ok ldp uses rel="next" too
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aaronpk
i think rel=next/prev works fine
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aaronpk
and can be done in either the http header or in the response body
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rhiaro
Presumably pump.io/ActivityPump handle pagination of the outbox and don't expect to deliver everything at once
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rhiaro
should check
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rhiaro
is busy cooking, however
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melvster
pagination is only one way to organize data
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aaronpk
melvster: I should point out that my "pagination" is not actually done by page number, but by absolute offsets, so the contents of my pages never change
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melvster
for inspiration on streams of json, activity, windowing and complex event processing, I find https://geteventstore.com/ interesting
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aaronpk
but that is opaque to clients because they just follow rel=next/prev
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rhiaro
my pagination is by month at the moment
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rhiaro
should add rel=
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tantek
melvster: up to each indieweb person and their site - if having a concept of inbox/outbox is an itch they want to scratch then they might look into it.
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tantek
however, as aaronpk said, for current indieweb sites, there's no need for a separate inbox/outbox abstraction.
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tantek
as webmention endpoint / homepage h-feed already satisfy the needs
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melvster
tantek: yes SoLiD is the same way, *but* we could implement inbox/outbox if it was a requirement of the spec
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rhiaro
I mapped webmention endpoint / homepage to inbox / outbox [in my head | on some braindump document]
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aaronpk
yea that idea has been floating around for a while now
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melvster
it's a heuristic really
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oshepherd
aaronpk: pump.io does rel=next/prev (encoded in JSON links collection) pagination of its' collections too
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oshepherd
I think for ActivityPump/ActivityStreams I prefer rel=next/prev as link headers as it removes "representation metadata" from the actual content
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aaronpk
cool. I would agree with that
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melvster
what I am tending to do for instant messaging is to have one container per day, each day contains all the posts for that day
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melvster
time forms a natural sequence
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oshepherd
pump.io also uses absolute pagination, fwiw (specifically you ask for all things /since/ a given object ID)
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melvster
like a named query?
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oshepherd
Absolute pagination is a MUST IMO since it's essnetial to the way some clients operate
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oshepherd
(My client, Impeller, is a "sync" style client - that is, it stores a local copy of your feed like an E-Mail client does)
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melvster
oshepherd: thats what I do too
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melvster
tho in the browser
almereyda, tantek, harry, jasnell and melvster joined the channel
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tantek
melvster - the difference is that indieweb folks implement stuff because they're scratching a personal practical itch, not because "if it was a requirement of the spec"
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melvster
tantek: yeah that's one thing i really like about indieweb, but if the w3c comes out with a social spec, I'll probably implement it, assuming I dont have to drop something else
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melvster
tantek: pretty much everything I implement is scratching an itch, just stuff that I found no place else so I just thought, OK, I'll build it myself
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melvster
web 2.0 can get you 80% of what you need, but it's that 20% that hurts me
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melvster
tantek: in fact the web itself was a 'scratching an itch' project
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tantek
right - which is why I think any specs the W3C develops, social or otherwise, ought to also be scratching very specific itches, or rather based on what has been *proven* by people/implementers scratching their own itches
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tantek
instead of the classic spec model of political aspirational consensus first, implementation second
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melvster
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 207 karma
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almereyda
Loqi, how much karma do I have?
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melvster
tantek: I hear what you are a saying, but I think you may be jaded from listening to opinionated people without implementation experience
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tantek
not jaded, but rather emboldened, by finding that working with implementers you can get things done, even semi-independently, without having to worry about armchair architects that don't actually build or ship anything ever
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melvster
tantek: I generally agree, but I dont take such an extreme position. There some people with great knowledge, that you can learn lots from even if they are not coding day in and day out.
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tantek
great knowledge rarely exists in the absence of great (implementation) experience
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tantek
that being said, we can learn from anyone who has an itch
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tantek
whether or not they can or do scratch it themselves
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melvster
tankek: i used to run a fantasy football forum ... everyone has an opinion but most people never will anything and will never win anything ... some people say 10%-20% have consistently good opinions, thats rare, you learn to listen to them ... most of the time this correlates well with good results back and forward ... from working on the web I do think implementation experience counts for a lot, but maybe not 100% more like 80% in my book
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melvster
on the web the other part is that you need to scale
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tantek
scaling comes with iteration
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melvster
tantek: you need a good architecture to scale, then it comes with iteration ... there are many many examples of systems that dont scale, the web is a RARE exception
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melvster
very few people ask WHY the web scales
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tantek
no you need iteration to scale. you never hear about the prematurely overarchitected solutions that never ship or are too cumbersome for the simple initial use-cases to get any uptake.
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tantek
what scales is what first succeeds, then rapidly iterates.
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tantek
succefuly sclaing architectures are evolved, not designed 100% a priori
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tantek
HTML, HTTP, and URL being prime examples, as opposed to all the massively overarchitected hypertext system designs that preceded them