#social 2015-07-10
2015-07-10 UTC
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# 
melvster rhairo: e.g. like in : https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/blob/master/userstories/user-posts-a-note.md
# melvster rhiaro: just want to make some progress, between activity pump and indieweb, although there's some excellent writeups and proof of concept, it seems about only 1/90 user stories is implemented so far ... if i can understand inboxes and outboxes then, maybe it's possible to find some common ground for an API
# melvster rhairo: looking at the common area in the WG (not on various project or user specific blogs/wikis) indieweb has implemented "User posts a note" so far, and I believe are very close to implementing Responses, I dont think they've implemented "User posts a file" -- so 1/2 user stories are verifyiable, if there's more, we'd love to see and learn
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# melvster rhiaro: it seems inbox and outbox are better defined in AP then in indieweb, my feeling is that the AP system is going to scale much better than webmention, with respect to being able to implement all the user stories ... so finding common ground on inboxes and outboxes seems a sensible thing to do ... im confident that if AP implement their system it's going to be a good candidate for interop
# melvster rhairo: there's nothing wrong with webmention and maybe it should be a note or something, but it's 20 year old technology, modern standards are born out of using these things, finding the limitations and extending them ... indieweb is still in the process of doing that ... AP seems to be very expressive in terms of what it can accept and produce, very open ended and extensible
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# 
ben_thatmustbeme Reading back...
# ben_thatmustbeme I think a lot of our back and forth melvster has been about inboxes/outboxes. St this point I think it's really because user stories are about functionality and those are specific technical terms
# ben_thatmustbeme Another way to say it is "follow the spirit if the user story, not the letter"
# ben_thatmustbeme By the way rhiaro I can post videos directly from my phone (mobilepub app). I believe aaron posts too
# ben_thatmustbeme I really should try out known at some point, just to see the features they keep adding
# ben_thatmustbeme Huh?
# ben_thatmustbeme Also looks like we will have SWAT0 possibly working between 3 different implementations by the end if this weekend
# ben_thatmustbeme If all goes well
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster: what do you mean?
# ben_thatmustbeme All classes can be for css
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# ben_thatmustbeme Or implementation. That might be many users
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# ben_thatmustbeme melvster: what was your confusion about u-video?
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# ben_thatmustbeme wonders by what metric melvster usese to proclaim scalability
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster: webmention is already interoping with many different softwares, SoLiD isn't one of those
# ben_thatmustbeme also, not sure that scaling would be the right term there then
# ben_thatmustbeme that was confusing
# melvster ive started a thread on the mailing list, if you think indieweb can handle inboxes (i dont think webmention can) feel free to add your thoughts ... webmention is just http post that we were using 10 - 20 years ago, it certainly has good specific use cases such as pingback, but I dont think it can handle the use cases as outlined in the WG, not on it's own at least ...
# ben_thatmustbeme has realized he should have -1'd any reference to inbox/outbox
# ben_thatmustbeme as they are technical terms, not UI ones
# ben_thatmustbeme which is what user stories should be focused on
# melvster ben_thatmustbeme: the point of the use cases is to show a wide coverage of social functionality ... not every system will be *able* to implement every use case, but that's not necessarily a reason to -1 it ... we should move on with those that CAN implement this stuff where we have rough consensus and running code ...
# 
raucao melvster: isn't it just a transport for putting something in your whatever inbox?
# raucao if you wish to do so
# ben_thatmustbeme or to put it another way, the terminology of a "inbox" in some software is getting confused with the more metaphysical "inbox" of any place you receive data
# raucao currently not, no
# melvster raucao: for some context https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Inbox
# raucao we'll have sth similar for kosmos notifications
# raucao but only you can put something in that box, not someone else
# raucao hmm, sounds like the type of inbox we'll also implement yes
# raucao so any standardization efforts would be great
# ben_thatmustbeme that inbox story is actually equivalent to a reader in indieweb
# raucao mostly same vocab would be nice
# ben_thatmustbeme agregates data
# raucao for the stored data
# raucao melvster: we haven't started with that feature yet, but will keep you posted
# raucao no
# ben_thatmustbeme the user story is essentially "read posts from other people in a FB stream type fashion"
# ben_thatmustbeme not to be confused with "inboxes" which is a specific item in pump
# ben_thatmustbeme so in indieweb, we have done that, its called a reader, with pubsubhubbub / polling
# ben_thatmustbeme but its not like a user has one "inbox"
# ben_thatmustbeme yeah, the spec is pretty messy, I'd like to have something much simpler
# ben_thatmustbeme i'm told its not that bad to implement, just way too much extra stuff in it
# ben_thatmustbeme huh, did melvster, did you see evan's comment on Bret's vote
# ben_thatmustbeme seems like inbox / outbox was really just to clarify incoming stream vs outgoing stream
# ben_thatmustbeme late to the party aaronpk :P
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster: so what would you classify https://ben.thatmustbe.me/activity as exactly
# ben_thatmustbeme its a page i use for my notifications of what people did to my posts / mentions of me
# ben_thatmustbeme should probably replace all of the "liked A photo" with "liked YOUR photo"
# ben_thatmustbeme etc
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# ben_thatmustbeme its meant to mimic notifications in facebook
# ben_thatmustbeme "so the inbox stream is like the notifications on facebook"
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# ben_thatmustbeme no, and no. timestamps might make sense, permalinks is not something seen in any silo i have seen
# ben_thatmustbeme FB, G+, linkedIn all have a similar stream that has no permalink for those notifications nor does it persist (they disappear over time)
# ben_thatmustbeme who says?
# ben_thatmustbeme we are not trying to be CLOSED like silos
# ben_thatmustbeme we are not trying to be walled gardens
# ben_thatmustbeme but we are certainly going to look to them for practical experience
# ben_thatmustbeme if we could get them to participate in the WG they would have tons of practical experience to contribute
# ben_thatmustbeme if they are all unifying on something its worth looking at what and why
# ben_thatmustbeme yes, that page is going ALLL the way back, i need to put some practical limit to it
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster: i don't instantly process webmentions. I have it on a cron job to avoid floods
# ben_thatmustbeme thought i'll be removing that at some point
# ben_thatmustbeme hasn't been really necessary
# ben_thatmustbeme thats all thanks to brid.gy
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster: i'm not seeing a webmention stored from you, where is your like post?
# ben_thatmustbeme ohhh, via FB
# ben_thatmustbeme yeah brid.gy only polls every once in a while
# ben_thatmustbeme it will come in eventually
# ben_thatmustbeme so i think its a processing model difference. I guess the closest model to an outbox is the user's stream
# ben_thatmustbeme so if I like something publicly, it goes to my stream on my homepage in addition to getting its own URL
# ben_thatmustbeme "pushing to someone else's inbox" is just me sending them a webmention with the URL to say "you are mentioned here, check this page"
# ben_thatmustbeme so outbox for others to agregate (the whats going on with my friends type feed) would be the homepage h-feed (it might be just referenced from the homepage as you can say rel=feed)
# ben_thatmustbeme the outbox for others to get notifications of my likes / comments / tags etc, is the actual URLs themselves (i send the URL to my "like" post to whoever's site i liked)
# ben_thatmustbeme does that make sense?
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# AnnB skimming long scrollback ..
# AnnB what's 'CIMBA'? (when I search, I get a town in Italy, Central Idaho Mountain Bike Association, ...)
# AnnB I'm also pondering these comments from Ben:
# AnnB # 07:30 ben_thatmustbeme has realized he should have -1'd any reference to inbox/outbox # 07:30 ben_thatmustbeme as they are technical terms, not UI ones
# AnnB wondering if we need to act on that observation
# AnnB as well as all the convo re: inbox / outbox
# AnnB (noting that melvster started an email thread on that)
# melvster AnnB: it's linked from https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr
# AnnB yes, I wonder aaronpk
# melvster AnnB: it's a paper written by timb, sandro, deiu and others: http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1272/paper_48.pdf
# melvster and has a full working implementation at http://cimba.co
# AnnB thanks melvster
# AnnB aha
# ben_thatmustbeme except having more than 1 implementation
# ben_thatmustbeme i have not, but its a point to bring up. would like to see other implementations of a system before its anything more than a silo
# ben_thatmustbeme not saying it couldn't have other implementations
# ben_thatmustbeme but usually thats an good test for how difficult it is to implement
# melvster does anyone know any of the folks at : http://redecentralize.org/ ?
# ben_thatmustbeme no, thought they have an interview with cwebber2 on there
# ben_thatmustbeme interesting poll 'Which app would you love to see decentralised (private, resilient, innovative)?'
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# AnnB really interesting poll results .. might inform our work, in terms of which functions to give priority
# ben_thatmustbeme indeed, though i would wonder about the skew of the polled audience
# AnnB right .. I was just looking around to see more about them
# AnnB 3 cheers for #6!
# ben_thatmustbeme huh?
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# AnnB cwebber2
# AnnB (is #6)
# AnnB (interview)
# ben_thatmustbeme oh yes
# AnnB I love the gist of that effort ... are you very much in touch with them, cwebber2?
# AnnB do you have a sense if they are very active, or have much traction?
# AnnB I see only one local chapter (Lisbon)
# AnnB before someone calls me to task, I note that the poll isn't strictly about "social"
# ben_thatmustbeme yes
# ben_thatmustbeme true
# AnnB (you know those geeks .. very particular about the bits... )
# AnnB (gotta love 'em)
# ben_thatmustbeme spending hours argueing over minutia of physics would work in a mythical world.... yeah... i know they type :D
# ben_thatmustbeme s/of/of how/
# AnnB hehe
# AnnB arguing over details is fine, it's when people get uppity that drives me nuts
# ben_thatmustbeme I won't even go into the scenes like that from Silicon Valley
# AnnB or think that just because they know something, it must be obvious to everyone else
# AnnB or that their 'truth' is THE ONE and ONLY TRUTH
# AnnB aaargh
# AnnB I do think that behavior is particularly prevalent in Silicon Valley
# AnnB my reactions are obvious
# 
KevinMarks reading all this about 'inboxes' and 'scaling' is a bit odd
# KevinMarks if you want an activity stream implementation that has been shown to actually scale in practice, you want Apache Shindig
# AnnB is that widely used, KevinMarks?
# KevinMarks the Java version was used to run Orkut and Buzz, the PHP one to run MySpace and other social netwroks
# AnnB and/or is that something that could be integrated here?
# AnnB (I'm not a developer, sorry for ignorance)
# KevinMarks so it has been shown to scale in practice to tens of millions of users
# AnnB cool
# AnnB that would be some serious 'scalage'
# AnnB I have to pull myself away to go do other work .. but, for the record, I didn't understand your response earlier ben_thatmustbeme about permalinks
# AnnB I usually like having a permalink .. what's bad about them?
# AnnB and I also didn't get your connection to them and silos
# ben_thatmustbeme AnnB, when you get back to it. I was pointing out that the UI for notifications in most silos does not have a permalink to any of those notifications. For example you might see a message "John commented on your photo" or it might be even longer "John replied 'Haha, thats great' to your message" . There is little to no need to permalink to that content. its fleeting. you want a permalink to the actual comment. If you click tnose notifications,
# ben_thatmustbeme you get to the actual post (sometimes autoscrolling to that comment). Actual posts, comments, even likes, might have a permalink, but the activity about such a comment, post, etc, rarely does.
# AnnB oh, I guess I didn't realize that permalink discussion was about permalinks to notifications
# AnnB on a quick think, seems like I'd use a perma to the whole 'ball of wax' ... original post, plus comments ... not to individual comments
# AnnB but I mostly avoid notifications of all types; makes my life much more calm
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# AnnB thanks Ben
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# 
rhiaro I'm not sure if you've seen this - I re-drafted the AP spec to look more like implementation steps: https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/blob/master/implementation.md Might help with understanding AP's inbox/outbox
# melvster rhiaro: thanks! for decentralized payments i have to get the metaphor right so that it's easier to use for developers ... it's got to be intuitive, if it matches AP that's going to be a big plus ... the thing here is that payments almost always have a 3rd party server, so i need to work out where the inbox is there, and where the notifications are (hopefully reusing the work of the WG)
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# ben_thatmustbeme normally i would agree with you, this is the only place where you can, but i don't see any reason to
# ben_thatmustbeme s/only/one of the only/
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# ben_thatmustbeme no, i'm saying that common usage has shown none
# ben_thatmustbeme at least not for UI at all
# ben_thatmustbeme specifically you don't want permalinks to things that aren't permanant
# ben_thatmustbeme notifications really aren't permanent in most systems because it would be too much data to store
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# KevinMarks is it compatible with http://indiecreddit.com/ melvster ?
# melvster KevinMarks: it's kind of decentralized to I dont decide what it's compatible with ... I only set the defaults, current default is bitcoin ... better question is how much work is it to change the currency ... probably right now an hour's work, but I suppose I'll make it a 1 line config before too long
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster: certainly I guess I was trying to say not required for those but certainly allowed
# KevinMarks it'd be very easy to 51% at the moment, yes
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