#social 2015-07-16
2015-07-16 UTC
bigbluehat, KevinMarks, jasnell, tessierashpool_, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme, tommorris_, bret, mattl, JakeHart, dwhly, ElijahLynn, Arnaud, shepazu_, the_frey and bblfish joined the channel
# 
melvster1 raucao: what we learnt working on webid after the first few years is was to cleanly separate the concept of identity with the concept of verification ... as the web has grown it's become less and less practical to prescribe a one auth system fits all approach to security ... so webid itself is now about how to identify, name and represent a user ... it is authentication agnostic ... other large systems like the postal service, email, and telephone often
# melvster1 also take this approach
# melvster1 PS : I think that's an important lesson for this WG to learn from too if the goal is an interoperable social API
bblfish_, jasnell, bblfish and jaywink joined the channel
# raucao it does't change the fact that you want to know who sends you something, though
bblfish, jasnell and the_frey joined the channel
# melvster1 regarding the IG call today, i've updated https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr
# melvster1 i believe the WG has approved some of the stories officially now
# melvster1 from the page we currently (from 13 user stories)
# melvster1 proposed: SoLiD 5. AP 4. IWC 4.
# melvster1 implementations: SoLiD 5. AP 0. IWC 1.
# melvster1 i believe there was some advancement on one of the use cases tho, which will be added soon
jasnell joined the channel
# melvster1 some of us working with SoLiD are now looking at implementing inbox and direct messaging
# melvster1 so hopefully getting to the half way point in user stories ... which is not bad imho given SoLiD is only 3 months old as a spec!
jasnell, Arnaud and tilgovi joined the channel
# 
ben_thatmustbeme melvster1: where do you get 13 user stories?
# ben_thatmustbeme we only have 8 approved
# ben_thatmustbeme ahh, i see, adding in 4 that have been revised on github and one that is just made up because there is an implementation
# ben_thatmustbeme which was pretty much blah on all votes and likely to not get accepted as a user story
# 
rhiaro melvster1: https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/blob/master/userstories/inbox.md gets a tick in the first table, but doesn't actually contain any content
# rhiaro http://ods.openlinksw.com/dataspace/doc/dav/wiki/ODS/ODSSWATOTutorial (linked under SoLiD-SWAT0) is a tutorial for how to use the GUI of a piece of software. Is that relevant?
# 
aaronpk i actually don't understand the organization of this page at all https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr
the_frey and KevinMarks joined the channel
# rhiaro !tell melvster1: I think I recall you asking for a list of micropub implementations to be on the WG wiki at one point? There are links to lists already here https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Candidates#Micropub_implementations
# 
Loqi Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/Candidates]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85093&oldid=83853
# Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Federation/Candidates]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85094&oldid=83963
# Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Federation/Candidates]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85095&oldid=85094
# 
jasnell fyi... would appreciate feedback on https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/191
the_frey joined the channel
# 
KevinMarks jasnell: where does "inbox" come from instead of replies? That's an email analogy, not anything any social network I have seen calls it
# KevinMarks if I search fro "replies" on google, twitter and facebook pages are top hits; I think that implies a generic understanding
# ben_thatmustbeme i think of inbox as being able to insert things from external sources, whereas a timeline is reading only
# KevinMarks not having to ark thinsg as read is a key distinction of social networks
# ben_thatmustbeme the "inbox" (generic) referenced in user stories gets really confused with "inbox" (techinical item) in pump.io
# ben_thatmustbeme feel like we need to get that all sorted out
# ben_thatmustbeme what is store for?
# KevinMarks not being an inbox is a key distinction of a social network from email
# ben_thatmustbeme was that added for soem user story?
# ben_thatmustbeme s/soem/some
tilgovi_ joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme so, do you need store if you have collection? is it really just implementation details at that point?
# melvster1 i didnt make that page, I was just pointed it at, and asked to fill it in ... suggest adding your improvement suggestions to the issues list on github
# melvster1 jasnell: on facebook, photos are contained on your timeline, they are also contained in a gallery
# melvster1 is implementing inbox as we speak ...
# melvster1 for me the hardest part has been to GET a list of *part* of the inbox, as opposed to, *the whole* of the inbox stream
# ben_thatmustbeme actually it FB photos are pretty heavily linked to the post of them
# ben_thatmustbeme comments are shared
# ben_thatmustbeme also trying to find a User Story that requires it
# melvster1 aaronpk: because you cant have a social web without friends (ie relationships)
# melvster1 jasnell++
# ben_thatmustbeme jasnell++ for dealing with a million questions right now
# ben_thatmustbeme lol
# ben_thatmustbeme you asked for feedback though :P
# melvster1 jasnell++
# melvster1 this ^^ (im not going to +! *every* thing he says) :)
# melvster1 jasnell: there's a user story for browsing the friendship graph ... SoLID have actually implemented this already ... the idea is that profiles have links to other profiles which become relationships (of a certain type) ... I believe indieweb have looked at "blogrolls" in the past, but I dont believe it's yet implemented anywhere
# melvster1 in SoLiD we call stores workspaces, it's where you stort stuff that you or people in your relationships want to find
# melvster1 s/stort/store
# melvster1 ie your social data
# melvster1 no
# melvster1 just for storing stuff
# melvster1 you can access control them ... but that is an advanced use case
# melvster1 yes
# melvster1 "containers" in LDP language
# melvster1 aaronpk: an API *is* a blueprint for building a system ... it exposes data for another party to interact with in order to build certain types of system
# melvster1 if doing it like facebook ... you would put photos in posts, and then put posts in a gallery
# melvster1 *i think*
# melvster1 jasnell? was album supposed to have a trialling / there?
# ben_thatmustbeme usually a "inbox" is only viewable internally (at least in most systems)
# ben_thatmustbeme would an API ever need to read that? oh, for social, not for federation i suppose
# ben_thatmustbeme still not sure inbox is a good term, its confused with "inbox" as an endpoint for others to send messages to vs "inbox" as a feed of my notifications
# ben_thatmustbeme this would be a notification feed really
# ben_thatmustbeme ? thats a pretty big difference to me, an inbox as an endpoint is write, vs an activity stream which is read
# jasnell not that unusual in practice: https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/blob/master/API.md#feed-basics
# jasnell "An activity inbox at /api/user/<nickname>/inbox. This is where the user can read posts that were sent to him/her. Remote servers can post activities here to be delivered to the user"
# melvster1 jasnell: looking at the user stories the term "inbox stream" seems to be used in conjunction with "inbox"
# melvster1 just like an activity stream is also not an activity
# melvster1 jasnell: good point, i joined this group after they were voted on, so just am trying to understand them as well as possible
# melvster1 swat0 imho was the most difficult to understand, it doesnt surprise me that it took 5 years for even an *attempt* to be made
# jasnell again, the use case here is discoverability. Where can I go to find the inbound notifications. If we feel that it is necessary to split the "where do I read my notifications" from "Where do I deliver notifications", then we can define an alternate means of discovering the "where do I deliver"
# melvster1 jasnell: that's exactly how I implemented it (in the last week) ... different use case tho (social payments)
# melvster1 i have an inbox of where i send stuff
# melvster1 and then an area where I read stuff that goes onto the screen
jasnell joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme did you use pump.io as an example for something being not unusual, when pump.io is the only one to use it?
bblfish joined the channel
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: was that a question for me? i tried to understand pump.io ... it was pretty confusing to me at least, but I think I got to the bottom of what I wanted to do ... in my implementation inbox is a discoverable place to send things ... then the person who owns the inbox gets an inbox stream ... what I had to get my head round was that the inbox has two roles line in email, one for the owner, one for the sender
# melvster1 but it's working really well now ... im starting to roll out decentralized payments
bblfish joined the channel
# melvster1 excellent: known supports webmention + JSON
# melvster1 isnt that 99% of indieweb profiles?
benwerd joined the channel
# melvster1 benwerd: do you have any stats for how many profile known supports, and how many are in the indieweb eco system?
# benwerd Known powers ~8000 websites, and by definition they're all in the indieweb ecosystem.
# ben_thatmustbeme Known++
# ben_thatmustbeme thats all?
# melvster1 benwerd: benwerd, awesome ... sorry, I should rephrase ... do you know roughly how many profiles are in the wider indieweb ecosystem (ie outside of known)
# benwerd oh. no, I have no idea, but it's significant, because of brid.gy and the wordpress plugins
# ben_thatmustbeme decentralized++
# aaronpk there's a start of a project to try to crawl and gather stats on how many sites support which features http://indiewebcamp.com/indie-stats
# melvster1 benwerd: but do you have any ball park numbers ... e.g. c. 10, c. 100, c. 1000, c. 10000 more?
# ben_thatmustbeme well, obviously more the 10, 100, 1000
# ben_thatmustbeme since known is 8000
# benwerd melvster1: it would be irresponsible of me to even guess. we don't consider our market as a startup to be "indieweb users" as such, but here's what I know -
# benwerd entire universities are jumping on board for their students, not using known
# benwerd (some are, of course, but some aren't)
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: question was *not including* known ...
# benwerd what that means is that entire student bodies will have access to indieweb tools
# benwerd largely using bridgy and those wordpress plugins
# ben_thatmustbeme benwerd, you also don't have stats when its a private install do you?
# benwerd ben_thatmustbeme: we have very loose stats, because known pings to see if there's a newer version available
# ben_thatmustbeme also worth noting that known is multi-user so there soulc be any number of users on those sites
# ben_thatmustbeme wow, my typing today
# benwerd ben_thatmustbeme - Right, we can count sites, not users
# ben_thatmustbeme s/soulc/could
# melvster1 so would it be wrong to say that majority of user profiles that implement a full indie web stack, to the extent of being able to implement WG user stories, are part of known?
tilgovi joined the channel
# melvster1 *that we know of*
# melvster1 aaronpk: just trying to understand the install base of the technology ... it looks like about 8000 profiles on known, and about up to 80 home page of varying degrees of use ... i wanted to understand what else was out there
# melvster1 if we know
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster1: 8000 sites, probably a much higher number of users/profiles in that
# melvster1 got it
# ben_thatmustbeme i don't know if there are any stats on the wordpress plugins
bblfish joined the channel
# melvster1 aaronpk: im mainly interested in the context of this group of systems that can support the user stories ...
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster1: there are tons of user stories and they were all written in one-shot passes, they are not gospel at all
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: well that may be the case, but they are relevant to this working group, implementations of user stories count, i am told ... so i was trying to understand what is out there, and where things are currently
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster1: "implementations count" does not mean "implementations of user stories"
# melvster1 aaronpk: yes I understand, for example I support indieweb and indieauth, but have not yet found a need for webmention ... or some of the other parts, because I use SoLiD for that type of use case
# ben_thatmustbeme implementing means you learned things about what works and what doesn't
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: yes exactly, this is how SoLiD developed over the years ... trying different things, finding what worked, what doesnt ... when you hit a brick wall ... so many of things I see going on today, at various times in the past we've tried, and found out more about ... some things are new and we'd like to try
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: for example about 9 years ago I started out with the "your homepage is your identity" philosophy which is really popular in indieweb ... however over time I learnt some problems with that approach and had to start from scratch, that's how webid was born
# ben_thatmustbeme what problems did you hit with that approach?
# ben_thatmustbeme homepage as identity that is
# ben_thatmustbeme and if its just range14, just pass
bblfish joined the channel
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: ive always been interested in making payments a first class citizen of the social web ... when sending money, security is a slightly higher concern, and so is making sure money goes to exactly the right place ... the other area that ive experiences is client side caching ... where you want to separate information about HTTP documents with information about things ... over the years *through implementation experience* you pick up many m
# melvster1 any learning experiences, which are hard to articulate in a paragraph
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: it doesnt make too much sense to send a payment to a homepage
# melvster1 ive always considered web 1.0 and web 2.0 a prelude to a web economy
# ben_thatmustbeme your personal preference to doing payments systems really doesn't effect the social systems though
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: as I said, 10 years of implementation experience of social is too much to articulate in a single paragraph, there's lots of tiny details ... i was giving an example because you asked, take it of leave it
# melvster1 it was just meant to be informational
# melvster1 the example I brought up before was likes, which are similar to payments ... you may like someone's homepage but not like them
# melvster1 a page about a book may have a license, but the book may have a different license ... lots of little things come up over time
# ben_thatmustbeme sigh, http-range14
# ben_thatmustbeme lets just move on
# melvster1 for me there were enough problems to merit starting over, we did start out in the same way as you guys
# ben_thatmustbeme and in practice, in actual social, people don't care to like pages, so its really not been an issue
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: pointless conversation, you have your world view, and no number of examples will shake you from it ... the only way is to do what we did 5-10 years ago and that's try to build stuff and see what brick walls you it
# melvster1 s/it/hit
bblfish joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme points to indieweb. #nonissue
# melvster1 sure if you dont consider interop an issue ...
# melvster1 which is essentially the definition of a silo
# ben_thatmustbeme interop is within a spec. interop between wildly different systems is not
# melvster1 ok, fair enough, but that's what i consider "siloism"
# ben_thatmustbeme as you have been told many many many times, we are not trying to make solid, pump.io, and indieweb work together is some conglomerate mess
# ben_thatmustbeme that won't work
# ben_thatmustbeme thats not the goal here
# ben_thatmustbeme we have a pile of implementations that all interop already
# melvster1 yes but at a snails pace ... you indieweb implemented 1 user story from 90 in 5 years
# melvster1 solid is 3 months old and has documented 4-5 and is working on 6-7
# ben_thatmustbeme how many software stacks do you have?
# ben_thatmustbeme also, those user stories were made rather outlandishly
# melvster1 http, linked data, websockets, SSL
# ben_thatmustbeme sorry, how many implementations
# ben_thatmustbeme that interop
# melvster1 we dont use software stacks, we just use the web
# melvster1 https is part of the web
# melvster1 you could argue whether or not websockets are ... but they probably are
# melvster1 is it a software stack?
# melvster1 is http a software stack?
# ben_thatmustbeme how many websites is solid working on?
# melvster1 we dont have stats but there are 10 different implementations for the core tech ... with #11 being worked on ... solid is only 3 months old so it's really early to say ... but actually it's just another name for "the web" ... we're basically just using w3c RECs in a logical way of putting things together ... very very little new is invented
# melvster1 there's over a billion profiles out there
# ben_thatmustbeme okay, then do you have examples of those user stories happening across tech?
# melvster1 not yet using the full SoLiD stack ... but hopefully we can build things to incentivize that
# ben_thatmustbeme not any of them?
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: yep, look at the browsable social graph user story ... there's 3-6 implementations ... and millions of profiles in the social graph
# ben_thatmustbeme not an accepted user story
# ben_thatmustbeme try again
# melvster1 nope
# ben_thatmustbeme so you have completed 0 user stories
# ben_thatmustbeme s/user stories/accepted user stories/
# melvster1 because you're on a war path to try and put another tech down ... i dont want to be part of that conversation, sorry
# melvster1 it's not a competition
# ben_thatmustbeme you are the one who keeps bringing up numbers
# ben_thatmustbeme i'm trying to say, use real numbers
# melvster1 i wanted to understand how known relates in indieweb as they have already implemented JSON
# melvster1 with webmention
# melvster1 so that's why i asked
# melvster1 if the majority of indieweb is already using JSON that's a great case for standardization
# ben_thatmustbeme no, i'm talking about number of completed user stories
# ben_thatmustbeme not the number of users
# melvster1 5 user stories
# ben_thatmustbeme facebook beats us all on that
# melvster1 going for 6-7 which is the half way mark on that page
# ben_thatmustbeme every user story requires at least 2 softwares
# ben_thatmustbeme interoperating between them
# melvster1 as i said we have 11 implementations passing the test suite
# melvster1 10 soryr
# melvster1 11 being worked on
# melvster1 for the core
# ben_thatmustbeme thats not the question. how many user stories can you point to that have been completed using more than one implementation?
# ben_thatmustbeme thats how you cound completion of user stories
# ben_thatmustbeme s/cound/count/
# melvster1 all of them
# melvster1 we have one implementation in GO, one in PHP and one in node
# melvster1 definitely the GO and node work together on all ... we have a test suite and it passes all ... php is there for most of it
# melvster1 someone is working on python
# melvster1 but i really want ruby
# melvster1 so we can have Solid gold with gems :)
# melvster1 someone is working on an android implementation too
# ben_thatmustbeme you had just said 5 minutes ago, none "okay, then do you have examples of those user stories happening across tech?"
# ben_thatmustbeme "not yet using the full SoLiD stack ... but hopefully we can build things to incentivize that"
# melvster1 that was the billion user profiles
# melvster1 main adopter being facebook ... but we know they are kind of a silo ...
# melvster1 at least they are a baby step ahead of google
# melvster1 and mozilla
# ben_thatmustbeme so you do have user stories completed? show me a link
# melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: we have/will put all links in the github area ... you are welcome to verify or raise any issue if you find them ... we'll fix them, or add extra info
# ben_thatmustbeme those look to be a description of how it will work, and how to do it in one software
# ben_thatmustbeme one links to a pdf
# melvster1 well thats because there were almost no implementations when the page stared, only proposals ...
# ben_thatmustbeme you are talking about links https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr right?
# melvster1 ive raised an issue saying that we should link to implementations
# melvster1 yes
# ben_thatmustbeme just on that main page
# melvster1 i didnt make that page
# ben_thatmustbeme PR?
# melvster1 i was just invited to fill it in
# melvster1 id like to see it better orgaized
# ben_thatmustbeme go for it. beauty of github
# melvster1 not a PR, in the issue tracker
# ben_thatmustbeme still no links
# melvster1 the pdf links to a full implementation http://cimba.co/
# ben_thatmustbeme you said you had links
# ben_thatmustbeme yes, 1 software
# melvster1 actually that probably implements about 5 user stories already
# ben_thatmustbeme again, cannot implement user stories in one implementation
# melvster1 yes we have 3 implementations of every user story
# ben_thatmustbeme time to go catch a train
# melvster1 cu :)
# melvster1 in fact we have 3x3
# melvster1 because 3 on the back end
# melvster1 3 on the cllient side
# melvster1 in general
# melvster1 so that's 9
# melvster1 PHP + GO + NODE
# melvster1 then on the client side there's apps, and a generic data pane (tabulator) ... you can also use curl I suppose
# melvster1 rhiaro: they were not public then ... maybe it was a cert thing ... you can add -k to allow self signed certs
# melvster1 rhiaro; i dont know about the UI label, but if there's no ACLs it's public and accessible by curl ... if not, it's a bug, just raise an issue
# melvster1 gitter is a chat room, not an issue tracker ... we're starting to use waffle for issues
# melvster1 but that aside
# melvster1 the UI is *instead* of curl
# melvster1 you send curl *not* to the UI, but rather, to the data store
# melvster1 all resources can be create with curl too
# melvster1 just a bit more low level
# melvster1 it's like git vs a git UI
# melvster1 git command line i mean
# melvster1 you can use warp to look at the underlying workspace
# melvster1 that will also enable you to change files using a file system type UI
# melvster1 you just need to know which channel your resource is pointing to
# melvster1 cimba has channels
# melvster1 with names
# melvster1 fun, work, family etc.
# melvster1 those label may be different from the ACLs
# melvster1 just look at the data space and then see what the ACL says ... if you want something 100% public just remove all acls, but this is like chmod 777 in unix ... be careful
# melvster1 initially everything was public as default ... but there's a drive to make them private by default now, for security reasons
# melvster1 as timbl said, 'we learnt that about security the hard way'
# melvster1 not sure i made any public posts, but each post will have a hyperlink
# melvster1 just click it and it will open in warp
jasnell joined the channel
# melvster1 andrei would probably haev some
# melvster1 btw all the posts on webid.im have the same format as cimba
# melvster1 i think andrei is working on verson 1.2 of cimba so he'll the most up to date thing
# melvster1 rhiaro: https://melvin.rww.io/workspace/cimba/fun/resource_1
# melvster1 curl https://melvin.rww.io/workspace/cimba/fun/resource_1
# melvster1 <>
# melvster1 <http://purl.org/dc/terms/created> "2015-02-11T16:10:42+00:00"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime> ;
# melvster1 @prefix rdf: <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#> .
# melvster1 <http://rdfs.org/sioc/ns#content> "tryin out cimba version 1.2" ;
# melvster1 <http://w3.org/ns/mblog#author> <http://melvincarvalho.com/#me> ;
# melvster1 a <http://rdfs.org/sioc/ns#Post> .
# melvster1 andrei would probably be the quickest to be able to tell you why that is
the_frey joined the channel
# melvster1 maybe a bug crept in
# melvster1 also browser tend to be a pain and change their security settings every few weeks
# melvster1 "for your own protection" of course
# melvster1 chrome is really hard to get anything done, and ive almost given up hope already on firefox
# melvster1 i just logged in and got my list of posts
# melvster1 I can see 6 channels in my channels tab
# melvster1 you can also use https://webizen.org/ to find webizens
# melvster1 you're in there!
# melvster1 wow 2 amy's with webids :)
jasnell joined the channel