#social 2015-07-22
2015-07-22 UTC
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# 
aaronpk i'm not friends iwth you guys on facebook but RSVP if you can! https://www.facebook.com/events/878538935556649/
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# aaronpk If by chance you can put up some html on your site you can rsvp that way ;-) http://IndieWebCamp.com/rsvp but no worries :-)
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# 
melvster KevinMarks: there's some confusion about the indexical ... it's not "what you call yourself" ... you're perfectly fine to say "my name is kevin mark's homepage" ... it's about what other people are going to call you ... if other people name you in a consistent way, then the value proposition is unexpected reuse of those links, so collisions are desirable, not something to protect against ...
# 
ben_thatmustbeme thinks melvster uses a different definition of "collision"
# ben_thatmustbeme traditionally collision means the same name for more than 1 thing
# ben_thatmustbeme this is aliasing
# ben_thatmustbeme multiple names for 1 thing
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# ben_thatmustbeme rereads discussion with this new language in mind
# ben_thatmustbeme s/language/definition/
# ben_thatmustbeme i still don't see how adding #this really helps the situation though. this would cause more collisions not another alias as #this could refer to the person or the part of the page with id="this"
# ben_thatmustbeme I don't think so, primaryTopic is specific to foaf is it not?
# ben_thatmustbeme html does not
# ben_thatmustbeme and most people use that first
# ben_thatmustbeme actually 100% of the web uses html :-P
# ben_thatmustbeme so if there is a main tag on a site then range14 goes away?
# melvster ben_thatmustbeme: no, the problem is not even specific to http, it's specific to documents, your passport is a document and it has a passport id (number) ... but that passport id is distinct from the person it describes ... this is simply a question about 'if i am taking down the details of your passport, what information should I enter into my database'
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# ben_thatmustbeme yes, its a consumer problem, not a producer one. as to passport dicussion, thats a bit disingenuous as we are discussing social, better to keep it in that context. we aren't looking to solve the academic problems of a librarian. also, that example is more about storage and db schema than about any sort of naming
# ben_thatmustbeme the question is, if my homepage says in the <main> that its me the person, do you need to use anything other than the actual URL?
# ben_thatmustbeme and honestly, there are few situations where thats a problem. most of the time, you know which based on context
# ben_thatmustbeme precisely
# ben_thatmustbeme nothing is free
# ben_thatmustbeme also, not always
# ben_thatmustbeme because you are overloading #
# ben_thatmustbeme # can mean an ID on the page, or a part of the text, if using fragmention, or literally anything else if you are using JS
# melvster the great thing about http is that you can use # to divide up the page ... now an important question is ... "would you ever want to do that?" ... its a valid question ... and it may have different answers ... but if you look at the history of documents, they've almost always had some way to divide them up into different sections ... on the web the way to do that is with a #
# ben_thatmustbeme yes, we all know how # work
# ben_thatmustbeme thats by definiton, overloading.
# ben_thatmustbeme for fragmention thats a concern but we resolved it as "assume ID takes priority to fragmention"
# ben_thatmustbeme url#foo is a different url, the fragment is PART of the url, and can be processed on the server
# ben_thatmustbeme correct, the broser removes it. if the server has the url with #, it can do whatever it wants with it
# ben_thatmustbeme what you are referring to is something you want the server to know about.. are you liking the page or person question
# ben_thatmustbeme have to go catch a train
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# ben_thatmustbeme Indeed (on phone) inbound links (requests for data from the webserver) don't need the disambiguation. Meta info on the url is needed for inbound links that the server needs to read (did someone like my page or me). The problem is any value as the fragment is STILL ambiguous. You need some other info like a rel=
# ben_thatmustbeme Unless of course you state on the page what the main topic is (in indieweb it's the first h-* is considered the main topic)
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# 
AnnB Hi All -- @lehawes and I are having a SocialIG meeting ..
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# AnnB Hi Lynn ..
# Lynn Hi Ann, sorry had to reboot
# AnnB I had to do the same .. always happens right at wrong moment, eh?
# AnnB I see you coming in on WebEx.. YAY
# Lynn trying...
# ben_thatmustbeme pops his head in
# Lynn i'm there but can't hear...
# AnnB KevinMarks, we're discussing a user story about which you had comments
# AnnB ... if you're around, we'd love to chat with you
# AnnB Lynn ... look at the settings on "connected to audio" at left of webex screen
# AnnB I always have to select it, then select for my headset for both talking and microphone
# AnnB I always have to select it, then select for my headset for both talking and microphone
# AnnB (whoops, sorry for dupe)
# AnnB Hey Ben .. can you get your audio going?
# ben_thatmustbeme just listening in, cannot speak
# ben_thatmustbeme i can hear
# ben_thatmustbeme in a meeting
# AnnB cool .. ok
# AnnB trackbot, start meeting
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# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/22-social-irc
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# ben_thatmustbeme Meeting: Social Web Interest Group Teleconference
# ben_thatmustbeme guessed
# AnnB thanks ben .. I was just looking that up
# ben_thatmustbeme is all powerful :)
# ben_thatmustbeme perhaps it is important to specify that the "group" getting deleted, is really just disassociated from the group
# AnnB appears to us that the main objection, by @kevinmarks and agreed with by us, is line #11 in the original user story -- that Roger deletes the group
# AnnB we agree there needs to be some sort of 'governance" on how deletes are handled -- who gets to delete what
# AnnB lehawes: also, discussion on github between @elfpavlik
# AnnB .. and @kevinmarks is questioning whether that's pertinent to API or not
# ben_thatmustbeme that would be very useful
# ben_thatmustbeme thats why i try to listen in to the IG too
# ben_thatmustbeme AnnB: we skipped this week
# ben_thatmustbeme we are moving to every other week
# ben_thatmustbeme I think that can work. those times work much better for me
# ben_thatmustbeme the conversation i was on was about finding a vocabulary for profiles
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# ben_thatmustbeme also concern of https://xkcd.com/927/ :)
# ben_thatmustbeme yes
# AnnB lehawes: hoping Vocab Task Force can make recommendation on which vocab to use
# AnnB ... foundational for profiles
# ben_thatmustbeme the other part of the discussion was that while the vocabulary for profiles might not be important for V1 of the social API, it may be important for v1 of FEDERATION API
# ben_thatmustbeme the "social API" is you connecting to your service (use any app to connect to your service) "Federation API" would be between sevices
# ben_thatmustbeme at least thats how i understand it
# lehawes Heres the link to the July 8 meeting minutes: http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-social-minutes.html
# Lynn ann, lost your sound
# AnnB hmm .. what?
# ben_thatmustbeme AnnB: woah... WAY delayed
# ben_thatmustbeme you are like 30 seconds behind
# ben_thatmustbeme oh, i think i caught up
# ben_thatmustbeme it*
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# Lynn Ann: for profiles, work on vocabulary
# ben_thatmustbeme I agree with Kevin on that one, I think it may be a wording change on you cannot delete posts (aside from possibly internally)
# ben_thatmustbeme nods
# ben_thatmustbeme I'll see if i can get his attention off channel too
# AnnB I think we all agree on KevinMarks ' deletion question / objection
# AnnB .. we just haven't been able to confirm alternatives or have discussion with him
# 
KevinMarks morning annb, what was up?
# AnnB YO, hi!
# ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: IG call going on right now
# AnnB any chance you could dial into WebEx .. we're discussing a user story objection you had
# AnnB we all agree with you ... just not clear on how to resolve
# KevinMarks can't easily dial in at the moment, but can chat here
# AnnB ok
# KevinMarks my problem is that the story doesn't make it clear what 'deleting the group' means -
# AnnB we agree
# AnnB (lehawes is typing ... )
# KevinMarks there is an implicit silo assumption there that it is his group and the others are posting in it
# AnnB right
# ben_thatmustbeme cannot find any B.B.King lyric "too hot to hold"
# KevinMarks as opposed to posting on their own sites and the group serving as an aggregation
# AnnB hmm .. that's a different twist
# KevinMarks Amy's comment sums it up
# lehawes Here's the link to the story: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Groups
# KevinMarks no, it's he same thing - he is deleting the group - is he also deleting their posts?
# ben_thatmustbeme +1 to that
# AnnB I just read her comment
# AnnB lehawes: makes sense
# AnnB I agree to a point .. but not totally clear on how that works from a user point of view
# AnnB here's Amy's comment from her vote on Groups user story: "... perhaps the posts are attached to the users who made them, not the group itself, and it's just the aggregation of these posts that disappears rather than the posts themselves? In which case a group is a collection of users plus a collection of selected posts. "
# ben_thatmustbeme remember this says nothing about how groups work internally to a business
# ben_thatmustbeme it the idea, that posts could be deleted by and administrator within a single system
# ben_thatmustbeme yes
# AnnB s/and admin/an admin/
# AnnB question for me is WHO gets to delete WHAT
# AnnB seems OK for me to delete my own stuff, but not others' stuff
# AnnB but at the same time ... in Boeing, we only let people edit and delete for one hour ..
# AnnB ... for basic posts and comments
# AnnB ... so as to preserve the record
# AnnB ... if I'm the owner of a group, I can delete the group
# ben_thatmustbeme you should always be able to delete your own content, if there is an administrator of that user, they can delete too. a group administrator can remove the association of a post to the group perhaps, but does not own the content
# AnnB lehawes: I've seen it stipulated that everything from a group is archived before deletion
# AnnB lynn: seems like a diff between how things work in public web versus enterprse
# AnnB enterprise
# ben_thatmustbeme Anything readable on the web, can be copied, forked, etc
# AnnB yes, true
# AnnB (to both points, lynn and ben)
# ben_thatmustbeme I'll try to write up a long post on my thoughts at some point this week
# AnnB in essence we're agreeing with kevinmarks' concern about deletion
# AnnB but at the same time, it seems like there's a separate issue or POV if a group is a group, or is an aggregation of posts by individuals...??
# AnnB we need to understand that better
# AnnB we, the IG folks, that is
# KevinMarks the same dichotomy applies on the web to some extent
# ben_thatmustbeme always in favor of more meetings / more discussion
# AnnB we'd like to ask for a joint meeting with you guys, so we can get to ground on this
# ben_thatmustbeme AnnB++
# KevinMarks if Roger's group is liek a blogpost with comments on his site, it's clearer that he can delete posts and indeed thw hole thing
# ben_thatmustbeme !meme karma
# AnnB could we perhaps use one of the intermediat weeks when the WG isn't meeting ... to meet together?
# KevinMarks if it is a collection of their posts, like a storify, he can edit but not delet their orginlas
# AnnB I'm going to send an invite, hoping to make that work
# KevinMarks and if the orginals are rmeoved, whetehr they remain is fluid
# AnnB unfortunately would be 2 weeks from now
# ben_thatmustbeme good luck AnnB
# AnnB OK ... sorry but I have to run ..
# AnnB this was an interesting session .. would be soooo interesting to actually be able to talk!
# AnnB every time we discuss one of these stories, people come up with intriguing perspectives ...
# AnnB the challenge is to "get to ground" on them
# AnnB thanks so much for attending with last-minute notice
# AnnB hopefully I'll get my mom set up soon, and will be able to be more attentive
# AnnB gotta run ..
# AnnB trackbot, end meeting
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/22-social-minutes.html trackbot
# AnnB rrsagent++
# AnnB hehe ... love it
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