#social 2015-08-25

2015-08-25 UTC
cdchapman, tantek_, bblfish, jasnell, almereyda, tilgovi, tantek, pfefferle, bblfish_, the_frey, the_frey_ and elf-pavlik joined the channel
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elf-pavlik rhiaro_, what do you think about this modeling of like with direct and qualified relation? https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/blob/master/verb/likes/README.md
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-08-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85411&oldid=85409
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-08-25]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85412&oldid=85411
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elf-pavlik also https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/verb/friends :)
pfefferle, bblfish, jasnell and rhiaro joined the channel
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elf-pavlik today may need to find a landline and request call back to join he conf :S https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExFAQ#How_do_I_get_a_callback_if_I_can.27t_run_a_WebEx_client.3F
tantek and pfefferle joined the channel
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: Google voice works for me, can you use that?
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rhiaro Btw will reply about the likes/relations stuff soon..
elf-pavlik, jasnell, AnnB, dwhly, tilgovi and tantek joined the channel
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AnnB slaps tsyesika around a bit with a large fishbot
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Loqi AnnB: KevinMarks left you a message on 8/20 at 7:51pm: if you don't blog, do you tweet? Because there is wirign to make tweet replies show up as comments too http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-08-20/line/1440125508841
elf-pavlik and eprodrom joined the channel
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eprodrom Hello everyone
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elf-pavlik eprodrom hi
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elf-pavlik eprodrom, sandro: i will need help from someone to dial +34 land line (i would prefer send full number on non logged channel)
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elf-pavlik afk ~5min
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AnnB Hi Evan!
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eprodrom So, I forget the URL of the tool to turn IRC logs into wiki text
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AnnB is that the tool that Amy put up?
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AnnB using Pandocticon?
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rhiaro there's a perl scribe script
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AnnB but, it just failed when I just tried it
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rhiaro that does irc->html
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AnnB oh ..
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rhiaro and pandoc.amy.gy does html->mediawiki
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rhiaro BUT
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rhiaro I killed my server this morning
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AnnB aha
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rhiaro That'll be back in a couple of hours hopefully
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elf-pavlik someone who can call back from WebEx to +34 land line please let me know and i'll send full number on private channel :)
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elf-pavlik hello AnnB & rhiaro :)
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eprodrom elf-pavlik: sorry, I have no idea how to do that
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elf-pavlik eprodrom, https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExFAQ#How_do_I_get_a_callback_if_I_can.27t_run_a_WebEx_client.3F
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elf-pavlik rswick++
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Loqi rswick has 1 karma
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tantek "You are the first person to join the meeting, Please standby"
csarven joined the channel
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elf-pavlik tantek, can you see if you can dial out? i can send you full nr on private channel if you can :)
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elf-pavlik hi csarven
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sandro is on call with Tantek
jasnell joined the channel
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sandro +Sandro
cwebber2 joined the channel
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sandro +Tantek
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tantek present+ tantek
RRSAgent joined the channel
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/25-social-irc
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eprodrom present+ eprodrom
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sandro +Sandro
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tantek present+ tantek
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: I replied to your email about liking things, finally :)
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rhiaro runs to find a room and headphones
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elf-pavlik rhiaro++
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Loqi rhiaro has 153 karma
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Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-29]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85419&oldid=85410
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Loqi Eprodrom made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-08-11-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85421&oldid=0
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eprodrom trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
Zakim joined the channel
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 25 August 2015
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Arnaud present+ Arnaud
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csarven present+ csarven
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elf-pavlik sandro could you diall out to +34 number? i can send it on private chan ...
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AnnB present+ Ann
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eprodrom present+ eprodrom
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cwebber2 present! cwebber2
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cwebber2 o/
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elf-pavlik o/
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExFAQ#How_do_I_get_a_callback_if_I_can.27t_run_a_WebEx_client.3F
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sandro I'll try, Elf
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eprodrom scribe?
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elf-pavlik sandro++
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Loqi sandro has 21 karma
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eprodrom tsyesika, problems connecting?
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AnnB I need to step away briefly; brb
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tsyesika eprodrom: trying now, sorry was a little delayed
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cwebber2 I can scribe
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ben_thatmustbeme present+ ben_thatmustbeme
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cwebber2 yep
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eprodrom scribenick: cwebber2
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jasnell present+ jasnell
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ben_thatmustbeme thats right
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-08-25
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cwebber2 eprodrom: thanks everyone for coming, I believe when we laid this out this will be the last of our summer meetings
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wilkie present+ wilkie
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rhiaro present+ rhiaro
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so we may have one more skipped meeting next week, then back on regular schedule
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cwebber2 tantek: that's what I have too
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cwebber2 eprodrom: first order of business, always nice and easy, is to review the minutes from the last meeting
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eprodrom TOPIC: approve minutes of Aug 11 2015
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cwebber2 eprodrom: which was two weeks ago
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cwebber2 eprodrom: just puttin' that topic in there
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ben_thatmustbeme +1 to approve
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eprodrom PROPOSED: approve minutes of Aug 11 2015
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-08-11-minutes
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tantek +1
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tantek (just skimmed)
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eprodrom +1
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elf-pavlik i didn't see them on wiki still 15min ago
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elf-pavlik +0
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cwebber2 eprodrom: these got posted late, just a few minutes ago, but if you can review...
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tantek elf-pavlik: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-08-11-minutes
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eprodrom RESOLVED: approve minutes of Aug 11 2015
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cwebber2 eprodrom: barring any other votes, I will mark this as resolved
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csarven 0 Not happy, but whatever.. lets see whatever is promised.
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elf-pavlik +0 i'll just trust the crew :)
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cwebber2 eprodrom: csarven, are you on the line? I'm not sure what you're saying
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cwebber2 csarven: yes, so I'll go along with the decision, I'm just not happy with how it turned out
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cwebber2 eprodrom: sounds good
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AnnB I'm back
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elf-pavlik sandro still tries to call out to +34 landline ...
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I understand, is that because of how it went through or the late minutes? if at a 0 I'm not going to continue working on that
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so let's move on
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cwebber2 eprodrom: another thing to discuss is the face to face
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eprodrom TOPIC: F2F Sapporo
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-29
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cwebber2 eprodrom: registration did open for TPAC in the last week or so
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cwebber2 eprodrom: if you do go, you need to register, helps to get everyone on there so we know who will be participating there
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I have regrets, we do have some remote participants
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eprodrom ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: if you will be participating remotely, that will help too
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rhiaro really wants to go to japan, come on everyone!
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cwebber2 sandro: I think I'm not going, I'm hesitant to buy a ticket until critical mass, but if we all do that it doesn't work
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cwebber2 sandro: so talking I said I'd go if enough others go
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cwebber2 sandro: so if you're waiting for critical mass, ok
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elf-pavlik sandro++
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Loqi sandro has 22 karma
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cwebber2 sandro: if you're waiting for travel approval, or if saying your deadline, maybe say that there
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cwebber2 sandro: I want people to buy tickets if there's not a meeting
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cwebber2 eprodrom: is there a possibility we won't have a meeting?
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Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85422&oldid=85391
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Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-08-11-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85423&oldid=85421
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cwebber2 eprodrom: is there a critical mass we need to have, maybe 10 participants and local?
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AnnB wondering if @tsyesika was able to get on the audio?
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elf-pavlik wseltzer hi :) could you maybe help us with dialing out to +34 landline? m> https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExFAQ#How_do_I_get_a_callback_if_I_can.27t_run_a_WebEx_client.3F
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AnnB ditto @elf?
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elf-pavlik thanks AnnB++
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cwebber2 sandro: remote people, it can be really hard to be up for all those hours
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cwebber2 sandro: in the boring you can't hear things kind of way
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cwebber2 Arnaud: let's be clear, there are 5 people listed, there may be 3 if not more people
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cwebber2 Arnaud: if that's the case it might not be worth having
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csarven Is there a min count or certain individuals/roles must be present?
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cwebber2 Arnaud: it would be helpful if people would indicate
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jasnell I will not be attending in person. Can attend remotely.
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cwebber2 Arnaud: we should make this a 2 face commit thing
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AnnB FYI, for me, flying from Seattle, with one night in Tokyo each direction, I estimate this trip would cost $3700 total (airfare, food, hotel, registration ...)
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tantek s/face/phase
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eprodrom s/2 face/2-phase/
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cwebber2 Arnaud: so if we need critical mass, we can confirm then everyone buys tickets
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csarven jasnell update the wiki please so that it is tracked.
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cwebber2 eprodrom: let's see if there's a something we can introduce to get number of commitments by a particular date
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cwebber2 eprodrom: would 6 weeks be a reasonable time commitment?
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tantek eprodrom: maybe by the next telcon?
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tantek yes we're ~9 weeks out
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cwebber2 sandro: my formal deadline is 4 weeks
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cwebber2 sandro: that was a please not a you must(?)
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elf-pavlik looks like we don't have host code needed for dialing out :'(
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cwebber2 eprodrom: that's a pretty strong date
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elf-pavlik TODO elf - help with finding it before next meeting in 2 weeks
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cwebber2 Arnaud: september 8th seems like reasonable deadline
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cwebber2 AnnB: tsyesika and elf-pavlik are waiting to dial in
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cwebber2 (???): I was never gven the host code
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elf-pavlik !tell harry we need host code to diall out from WebEx, could you please share it with sandro and chairs? thx! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-08-25/line/1440522820835
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tsyesika present+ tsyesika
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AnnB s/(???)/Sandro: /
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cwebber2 tantek: do we need a critical mass or do this in 2 weeks
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cwebber2 cwebber2: who's talking?
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elf-pavlik please don't worry we can discuss raised by me AS2.0 topics in 2 weeks
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cwebber2 sandro: could everyone please update saying what their status is doing an update to the wiki
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cwebber2 eprodrom: please do update to the wiki by end of meeting
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tantek sandro then evan
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cwebber2 eprodrom: in sep 8 meeting we'll make a decision go / no go
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AnnB @tsyesika, are you on the call?
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tsyesika AnnB: i am
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AnnB oh good
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cwebber2 eprodrom: any fixed goals for the face to face?
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cwebber2 tantek: we should at least collect agenda proposals
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cwebber2 AnnB: seems like there was good synergy at paris meeting with tech communities presenting how they were doing things
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cwebber2 sandro: the whiteboard exercise was great
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cwebber2 tantek: how do we keep that momentum going forward is one way to look at the opportunity of the next F2f
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cwebber2 tantek: a hackathon before and afterward may be the way to do it
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-29#Agenda
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ben_thatmustbeme hackathon++
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Loqi hackathon has 1 karma
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I added an agenda section to the wiki page
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ben_thatmustbeme s/tantek/sandro
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cwebber2 cwebber2: arg :)
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AnnB no worries, cwebber2
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AnnB hard to tell
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'll take an action personally to add items to agenda, see how they go from there
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cwebber2 eprodrom: hopefully that will push us on participation
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'd like to move forward on activitystreams
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eprodrom TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0
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cwebber2 eprodrom: would like to take a moment to ask jasnell to give us an update on where we are. last meeting I think we tried to discuss what possibilities there were to go forward toward a CR
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I think the challenge was closing issues on github
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-29]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85424&oldid=85419
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Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-29]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85425&oldid=85424
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Loqi Jsnell made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-29]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85426&oldid=85425
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Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-29]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85427&oldid=85426
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Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-29]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85428&oldid=85427
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cwebber2 jasnell: the primary outstanding PR right now on github is refactoring of the paging model
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cwebber2 jasnell: status of the ?? group is using the collection model as part of their api
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cwebber2 what group?
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cwebber2 jasnell: in response to that feedback I got a revised version of the model, seprating collection from individual page
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cwebber2 jasnell: PR is sitting out there right now for 3 weeks, doesn't appear to have significant review
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cwebber2 jasnell: but if folks could take a look at it...
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eprodrom https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/199
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cwebber2 jasnell: the other open PR there is the example changes that I still need to review
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so the PR with the collection changes, should we or could we discuss now? is that a good use of time?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: might move us a bit forward...
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jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/199
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cwebber2 eprodrom: if people are ok with doing that, maybe what we can do is come to a conclusion in-meeting
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cwebber2 eprodrom: and adopt/pull the PR?
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jasnell sorry, didn't see that eprodrom had already posted
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cwebber2 eprodrom: does that sound like a good way to do our time? esp if moving AS 2.0 forward, might be a good way to use next 10/15 minutes
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cwebber2 jasnell: can give a quick rundown
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cwebber2 eprodrom: sounds great
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cwebber2 jasnell: original paging model for AS2 was have collection object, collection object had array of items
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cwebber2 jasnell: had subset of collections in items
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cwebber2 jasnell: so collection object might have 10 items of next/previous items
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cwebber2 jasnell: challenge with that is the way it was defined conflated logical collection with page which they aren't
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cwebber2 jasnell: from a basic json point of view that's ok but
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cwebber2 jasnell: from a rdf point of view, not ok
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cwebber2 jasnell: we've had that feedback before but at the time chose not to persue changes
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cwebber2 jasnell: the edit at this point introduces a few new concepts
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cwebber2 jasnell: including collection page
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cwebber2 jasnell: nad now an ordered collection page variant
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cwebber2 jasnell: can still have individual, but if you want subsets, can use collection page
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elf-pavlik relevant issue from Hydra CG discussed over a year ago https://github.com/HydraCG/Specifications/issues/42
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cwebber2 jasnell: to view changes, check out branch, called revfactor-paging
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eprodrom https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/commit/beb7ced5f801050dd53b5fe9ca8d5099ec82b9d7
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cwebber2 jasnell: you can view changes in browser, they are fairly extensive
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Arnaud q+
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Zakim sees Arnaud on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack Arnaud
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 jasnell: not a huge difference, but they are moved and clarified down to the collection page level
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cwebber2 Arnaud: a comment, I'm not against current proposal but want to gie you history on LDP paging, we originally started with something similar
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cwebber2 Arnaud: Where all paging mechanism was done in content
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cwebber2 Arnaud: but we got pushback with timbl by saying you're polluting content
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cwebber2 Arnaud: so we moved all the paging stuff to HTTP headers
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elf-pavlik Arnaud++ timbl++
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Loqi Arnaud has 24 karma
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cwebber2 jasnell: and that approach involves ??? headers
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cwebber2 jasnell: like link rel previous rel next kind of thing
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eprodrom HTTP
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cwebber2 Arnaud: yes
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cwebber2 eprodrom: if you don't mind I'd like to describe AS 1.0 collections, allllmost the same as what we're describing
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elf-pavlik relevant discussion to 'polluting content' in Hydra CG list https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-hydra/2015Aug/0037.html
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cwebber2 eprodrom: this seems a huuuge step forward in clarity, making it easier for producers/consumers to manage
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cwebber2 eprodrom: giving pages their own class and reifying them, aI also like that we've maintained the ability to maintain the entire collection in the whole object
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so we haven't forced paging for collections of 5/10/15 items
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jasnell q+
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Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack jasnell
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so I for one think it's a big step forward, the big question arnaud brought up is whether we need to look closer at LDP paging
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elf-pavlik q+ re: should paging belong to API? (IRC only, sorry but WebEx host code issue got me :( )
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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Loqi *sniff*
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cwebber2 jasnell: so I view LDP paging as orthogonal; it's compatible. LDP paging is mainly off of link header, we can make use of that
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cwebber2 jasnell: we've already prototyped that it does work
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cwebber2 jasnell: so we can have collection page and still have link headers at the sme time
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cwebber2 jasnell: permit implementers to choose which they want
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cwebber2 eprodrom: whoa, that's an interesting question
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cwebber2 eprodrom: idea is we'd support LDP paging as part of collection mechanism if you so chose?
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cwebber2 jasnell: yeah we don't have to spec it, implementer can use them together if they choose
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csarven There is a tradeoff. What's the intention for paging? UI or machine consumption?
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wilkie wouldn't that need to be spec'd for interop?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: ok but if I was a consumer and trying to read a collection you published, would I have to understand both LDP paging and AS paging?
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cwebber2 jasnell: well you could understand just one
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cwebber2 sandro: how do you know which you need to understand
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cwebber2 sandro: you need both?
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elf-pavlik csarven, why do you need different pahs for machine and person? hypermedia++
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cwebber2 sandro: either the server has to emit both, or the client understands both
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I think that is something we might need to call into play...
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cwebber2 eprodrom: james, is there a way we can go...
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jasnell a client GET's a collection, it can look at the headers if it wants, use them if they are there
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Arnaud q+
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, Arnaud on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: one option is to ignore LDP paging, the other is to spec out how interop works
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eprodrom ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss should paging belong to API? (IRC only, sorry but WebEx host code issue got me :( )
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Zakim sees Arnaud on the speaker queue
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jasnell otherwise, they look for the collection paging properties in the json-ld
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cwebber2 eprodrom: elf-pavlik: you're on the q
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elf-pavlik I would like to propose leaving paging to API and not data syntax
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elf-pavlik since it deals with *interface* not modeling domains
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sandro +1 paging is an API issue
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elf-pavlik do we need it if we have direct access to dataset?
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tantek got kicked off IRC for a bit
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tantek cwebber2: that was me that asked about link prev next, not jasnell
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees Arnaud on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack Arnaud
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 cwebber2: tantek: I'm haivng trouble discerning between you, sandro, jasnell today :)
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tantek q+ to state that paging and collections are two different things. plumbing/API vs. user-level concept.
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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csarven elf-pavlik If direct access, yo ucan control that through the query mechanism for instance.
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tantek can we get a URL for that WG note Arnaud ?
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wilkie cwebber2: tantek and jasnell sound a lot alike
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cwebber2 Arnaud: I"m not arguing that we do LDP paging, it's a workingg group note, so we published it to the working group note, it's been months in the LDP workign group working on paging, and I'm looking at this saying "oh my, here we go again..."
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cwebber2 Arnaud: there are issues related to separation of concerns taht come in here
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elf-pavlik tantek, this one? http://www.w3.org/TR/ldp-paging/
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tantek cwebber2 no prob. will try to announce my presence
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cwebber2 Arnaud: this may be in line with API
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tantek elf-pavlik: I don't know - hence why I'm asking Arnaud for a citation
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cwebber2 Arnaud: and whether or not you can separating the ??
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cwebber2 Arnaud: what lead LDP group to headers is it allows it to move to a lower level(?)
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cwebber2 Arnaud: that's why we moved to this
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cwebber2 Arnaud: I'm not pushing for one, I think we should go with one rather than 2
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cwebber2 eprodrom: it looks like we're coming up with many alternative proposals
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eprodrom PROPOSED: accept PR #119
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eprodrom https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/199
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'd like to make a proposal to accept PR as documented
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eprodrom PROPOSED: accept PR #199
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jasnell +1
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elf-pavlik I would use as rulle of thumbe for social syntax: "what construct i need to express data and use it if i can download the whole dump of given dataset"
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eprodrom +1
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm not sure if we need to close off discussion, but I would like to make this what's on the floor right now
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tantek +0 haven't had time to review, but no objection, trusting editor to keep things moving forward
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elf-pavlik 0
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csarven 0 Haven't reviewed.
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rhiaro +0 haven't reviewed
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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Arnaud this seems to be progress anyway
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cwebber2 +0 haven't reviewed but I am near +1 because it sounds sensibleish?
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to state that paging and collections are two different things. plumbing/API vs. user-level concept.
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik +1 tantek
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cwebber2 tantek: I don't know if this will help, but talking about paging and collections, the paging does seem like it's a data acdess kind of low level thing
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cwebber2 tantek: so that seems like something I'm ok with that moving to the api, as opposed to that being defined in AS
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cwebber2 tantek: collections to me are much more of a user thing
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cwebber2 tantek: I'm going to post a collection of stuff
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tantek indiewebcamp.com/collection
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csarven I also think that paging seems more appropriate for the API.
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cwebber2 tantek: so I'm advising we don't conflate those two
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elf-pavlik can we make straw man pool if we can move it to API ?
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wilkie +1 seems fine enough. I could see this being placed in the api instead since CollectionPage etc will be ephemeral.
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cwebber2 tantek: which might allow us to keep collection posts in activitystreams while moving paging to a different level?
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom /evans-pictures?page=2
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eprodrom /evans-pictures
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so if we have a URL like (two above) I think the core proposal would have us return a page for the first item and a collection for the second item
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cwebber2 eprodrom: obviously these are examples for proposals but not API (?)
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so even if we think paging is something API handles, that would be if we think page representations should be different than non-page representations (??) it would be useful to have object classes for both of those
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik similar proposal for Hydra *API* https://github.com/HydraCG/Specifications/issues/42#issuecomment-40717244
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cwebber2 cwebber2: I'm not totally sure I got that right eprodrom, please review
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cwebber2 eprodrom: has everyone chimed in on the proposal who will like to?
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tantek admits he's not sure he's fully understanding it, so just trying to clarify. not going to hold anything up though.
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cwebber2 is everyone chimed in who would like to make a decision?
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AnnB abstain
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elf-pavlik API may need to add AS2 independent vocabulary terms, i don't think we should shovel something in there 'just in case we need it'
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tantek justincaseweneedit--
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Loqi justincaseweneedit has -1 karma
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eprodrom RESOLVED: accept PR #199
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so we're at 10:40, we have two other AS2.0 discussions
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eprodrom TOPIC: as:Like vs as:like
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cwebber2 eprodrom: first is about likes, as:Like vs as:like
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eprodrom elf-pavlik, please explain
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elf-pavlik i couldn't join call due to missing host code for dial out :(
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cwebber2 eprodrom: elf-pavlik, please explain
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders if we should get to AnnB's agenda item since i believe it was in there first
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cwebber2 eprodrom: elf-pavlik, how would you like to proceed
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elf-pavlik i would invite everyone to read email and social-vocab illustration and prepare for discussing it in 2 weeks
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csarven He suggested earlier that we can put it off to the next meeting
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cwebber2 eprodrom: you can type or make proposal
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eprodrom elf-pavlik, how would you like to proceed? You can type, or make a proposal, or we can defer until next week
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cwebber2 eprodrom: or we can defer until next week
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elf-pavlik in *2 weeks* ?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: ok we'll move to next week
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cwebber2 eprodrom: next proposal also proposed by elf-pavlik
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eprodrom elf-pavlik, shall we move the next proposal to next week?
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Arnaud right, s/next week/next call/
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cwebber2 eprodrom: would like to move next proposal to next week
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elf-pavlik our wiki currently says "2015-09-08 Telecon (no 2015-09-01 call) chair: Tantek"
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cwebber2 eprodrom: yes I'm sorry, next call not next week
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jasnell fyi... I will not be here for the next call
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Future_Meetings
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jasnell will be attending NodeConfEU
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eprodrom elf-pavlik, waiting for your response to move on
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elf-pavlik i put it there after exchanging emails with harry on mailing list
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elf-pavlik yes lets postpone it for when we get hold of webex host code
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cwebber2 eprodrom: in absence of response, will move it to sep 8th timeframe
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eprodrom TOPIC: Social API user stories
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cwebber2 eprodrom: would like to move on to next topic about social apis user stories
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cwebber2 eprodrom: AnnB asked that we discuss these user stories
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so AnnB ?
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cwebber2 AnnB: my question was in regard to interest group, we originally understood request from working fgroup to work through esp stories with minor objections
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cwebber2 AnnB: so users could agree with user stories esp with relatively minor objections
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cwebber2 AnnB: we have to have the people who are the objectors engage
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cwebber2 AnnB: so question is, is that useful for us to do, and if yes, can we use every other working group meeting
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cwebber2 AnnB: I guess we're coming towards end of summer schedule so
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories#Entirely_Positive_or_Positive_Neutral
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cwebber2 AnnB: but is it useful for working group to try to resolve the user stories
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tantek I thought that was going to happen last week - but heard nothing
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cwebber2 eprodrom: will resolve question with a question, here's a set of user storeis which are +0 or 0 means "I don't care enough to fully object to let it go through"
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cwebber2 eprodrom: are we trying to resolve those also
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tantek http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-08-18
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cwebber2 eprodrom: or also -1 or -0s
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cwebber2 AnnB: we were focusing on "minor objections" stories
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories#Minor_Objections
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cwebber2 AnnB: when you read the objections they tend to be about language nuances rather than about whole concept of the story
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cwebber2 AnnB: so it seems relatively easy to resolve those objections
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cwebber2 tantek: in my experience many of those had loose language like "solve the problems of the whole world" which is beyond charter, so given dialogue around user stories was around "this user story was approved so we have to do everything possible around them"
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cwebber2 tantek: not sure how to resolve, but want to raise
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cwebber2 tantek: consternation around inbox problem is an example
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cwebber2 eprodrom: suggestions on how to proceed, here are examples with not all +1s but +1s and 0s
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tantek indeed we should look at the 0s
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tantek and see why
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cwebber2 eprodrom: we have not accepted those, Annb is it your understanding we can or should? i thin kwe should
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cwebber2 Annb: i'm looking for indication on what the IG should tdo that's valuable and supports the IG
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rhiaro If another batch of user stories get formally 'accepted' I'm happy to go through them and do api requirements extraction as before
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cwebber2 annb: the entirely positive are entirely positive, no objections, but the +1s or +0s, I look to you to sort this out
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cwebber2 annb: and question raised, how rigid are these, are they locked in stone or?
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Approved_user_stories
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tantek q+
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-29]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85429&oldid=85428
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cwebber2 eprodrom: you asked a question I wanted to make sure you were aware, we have a list of approved user stories, we 've mapped these out as the ones we've agreed to implement
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cwebber2 eprodrom: this is the magic list
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elf-pavlik we can label stories with MUST || SHOULD || MAY and make sure we have implementation for MUST and our decision don't block anything needed for SHOULD and possibly bear in mind to not block MAY
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cwebber2 eprodrom: there sis expectation that those user storeis not in those approved list we either need to resolve as rejected or accept
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rhiaro I like what elf-pavlik said
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cwebber2 eprodrom: we do need to get to a sorting process
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elf-pavlik rhiaro :)
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cwebber2 +q
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I think SWAT0 was an important one
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cwebber2 eprodrom: second one was a sorting user stories entirely postiive, we accepted all of those
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cwebber2 eprodrom: what we haven't accepted are the other ones on those page
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cwebber2 eprodrom: if there's a process, I think a process as a group would be proposing then accepting those stories
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I think it would be unlikely to do it in a different way
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: no problem
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cwebber2 AnnB: I have a quesiton, can I clarify
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elf-pavlik +q to ask if accepting a story *obligates* us to show working implementation based on delivered specs before claiming victory?
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Zakim sees cwebber, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 AnnB: so the approved user stories, I think we can see swat0, are those one and the same as the ones that were entirely positive
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cwebber2 AnnB: user posts a note, reading ((?))
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cwebber2 eprodrom: yes those were entirely positive, in july/june we voted whether to accept, and we decided to accept those ones in particular
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cwebber2 annb: yes I understood that part, what I thought was the baseline was those were the entirely postivie and swat0, I think that for future work the IG was to work on ones that weren't entirely positive
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cwebber2 annb: so we don't want to do work that's not valuable
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim sees cwebber, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 annb: seems interesting to work on, but if not valuable it's not valuable
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cwebber2 annb: also sound is breaking up fo rme, not sure for everyone else
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cwebber2 tantek: yeah, so I was going to point out regarding user stories, there's a bit of difference in how we resolve user stories than other ones, I'd look at the ones we had +1s, and why would there be 0s or -1s. if its' all +1s and +0s, what's the problem, but compared to ???? and -1s
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cwebber2 tantek: the traditional way is traditional w3c thing is if nobody objects move forward
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cwebber2 tantek: but I said that's a bad way to move forward
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elf-pavlik i'll post clear proposal by next week about labeling stories MUST || SHOULD || MAY where which comes with different implications - from more commiting to less commiting
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cwebber2 annb: a number of things were like "there's an attachment in the middle, but should it really be anywhere", that's easy to resolve
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elf-pavlik s/which/which one/
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jasnell dropping. have another call I need to prep for
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I understand that, that's a reasonable way to sort them, but there is like 100 of them
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cwebber2 annb: yeah evan, aren't the sortings that ben_thatmustbeme were like that
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elf-pavlik q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: yes but tantek is saying whether or not the ???
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cwebber2 tantek: I was just answering annb's question
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 tantek: I was just saying, pick at ones that have ones that have more +1s, rather than "least objections"
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ben_thatmustbeme q+
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Zakim sees cwebber, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 eprodrom: sorry to do this but will jump to front of queue
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AnnB +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm going to propose we extend by 10 mintues
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eprodrom PROPOSED: 10 minute extension of meeting
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cwebber2 +1
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elf-pavlik +1
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tantek +0
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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rhiaro +1
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eprodrom ack cwebber
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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eprodrom RESOLVED: 10 minute extension of meeting
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber: i was going to say that, if the IG finds many of these are easy to resolve, I would trust the IG to find the ones that are most close to being resolvable
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rhiaro cwebber++
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Loqi cwebber has 3 karma
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rhiaro cwebber2++
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Loqi cwebber2 has 42 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe the best thing for the IG to do is to find those that are most likely to resolve, and make edits as needed and propose them back to the WG
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Responses
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ben_thatmustbeme AnnB: We were accepting the catagorization that ben_thatmustbeme was working with and we were just going down that list. I think what you are proposing is to go through the list and just find those most likely to resolve
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme if you cribe someone else you need nickname: or ... if you continue same person
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cwebber2 AnnB: that sounds good, we were accepting the categorization ben_thatmustbeme came up with, we started with the minor objection group and bring them forward
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so I gave an example of one that has mostly approval, but it had "why not do this but do text", and easy resolution is "just do text", but you do need some responsiveness from the people who did the objection
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: cwebber2
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cwebber2 AnnB: you're describing what we think is a good process, we don't want to make a resolution for tantek on how to fix it, we'd ask him how he thinks we can resolve that
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik i know, slipped
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so maybe a process we can use is that the IG will continue to go through these, and at intervals where there are issues resolved, we can bring back to the WG, and we can vote to accept / not accept
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elf-pavlik ok, just making sure so you and cwebber2 have less editing afterwards :)
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cwebber2 AnnB: main request I have from the WG, we need to talk to you
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eprodrom PROPOSED: ask the IG to continue to resolve objections and propose user stories for acceptance
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cwebber2 AnnB: we're happy to coordinate, but we need that kind of support from individual objectors
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cwebber2 eprodrom: (repeats proposal above), does that sound reasonable?
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cwebber2 AnnB: yes with the caveat that participants must help resolve
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eprodrom PROPOSED: ask the IG to continue to resolve objections with the help of WG members and propose user stories for acceptance
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cwebber2 eprodrom: how about this one ^^^
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elf-pavlik we can agree to void objection if person objecting not engages in clarifying them (via github as we agreed) in timely manner < 1 week delay
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AnnB +1
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eprodrom +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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cwebber2 eprodrom: cna I get a straw poll?
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cwebber2 +1
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rhiaro +1
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wilkie +1
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elf-pavlik +1
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csarven +1
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tsyesika +1
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sandro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme though i would say, if you don't get a response from some individuals, still propose edits, may still be worth the work put in to it
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm getting all +1s so that looks strong
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eprodrom RESOLVED: ask the IG to continue to resolve objections with the help of WG members and propose user stories for acceptance
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cwebber2 cwebber2: I agree ben_thatmustbeme, if the IG feels comfortable with ti
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so great thanks so much AnnB
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elf-pavlik AnnB++
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rhiaro AnnB: good point, I'll review
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Loqi AnnB has 29 karma
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cwebber2 AnnB: I want to also ask if anyone has a particular story to resolve, point us at it
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cwebber2 AnnB: IG is continuing,
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so ??? would be a good time to help resolve
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cwebber2 AnnB: our meeting on wedsnesays is 1 hour earlier than this, for west coast it was a bit early and in europe a bit late
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ben_thatmustbeme i thought it was 2 hours earlier
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cwebber2 AnnB: but we'll do whatever
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cwebber2 eprodrom: if you can keep us up to date as time changes
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cwebber2 AnnB: we'll ping individuals
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cwebber2 eprodrom: awesome, thanks so much AnnB
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cwebber2 eprodrom: great, well I feel like we got to a resolution here, if there are no objections would like to close up the meeting
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cwebber2 eprodrom: if that seems reasonable, thanks all for coming
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eprodrom trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
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ben_thatmustbeme q-
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik q?
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cwebber2 AnnB: thanks, and thank you eprodrom !
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/25-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: i know, same here
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elf-pavlik unless we already have clearly documented on a wiki *implications* of accepting a user story (link please?), I would like that we clearly agree on such implications and document them on wiki
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wilkie cwebber2++
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AnnB thanks cwebber for awesome scribing!
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Loqi cwebber2 has 43 karma
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eprodrom elf-pavlik, I'm sorry, you were on the queue and I didn't ack you
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cwebber2 rhiaro: where's your pandoc link again?
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AnnB oh bummer
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elf-pavlik eprodrom, no worries!
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rhiaro cwebber2: I broke it, gonna try to get it back up within the next hour!
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rhiaro I'll let you know
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eprodrom apt-get install pandoc
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eprodrom It's pretty easy to use
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: so was I
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elf-pavlik i think my comment above can help us to sync our understanding of what 'accepting a story' implies
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rhiaro that works too
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ben_thatmustbeme to exactly bring up that point
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rhiaro I put the exact command for pandoc on the wiki at one point
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme, yeesh, totally rushed through that
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2 covered most of what i wanted to say anyway
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme, elf-pavlik: I'm going to put this on the agenda for next meeting if you don't mind
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elf-pavlik eprodrom++ thanks!
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Loqi eprodrom has 25 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, sounds good to me
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elf-pavlik got to run, ciao everyone o/
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ben_thatmustbeme it was my understanding the user stories were really as a guide for developement of the APIs and are not some output of the group
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ben_thatmustbeme precisely why we voted on them without much editorial review
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: I think it's an optional output of the IG. But they're useful for deriving api requirements that are actually grounded in something
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rhiaro More useful for deriving api requirements from nowhere, at least
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-09-08#Social_API
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: that is my understanding too
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: thats where a lot of trouble came in, they were being taken as technical documentation, not as a sort of quick and dirty guide for API design
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Loqi Eprodrom made 3 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-09-08]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85432&oldid=0
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rhiaro cwebber2: pandoc.amy.gy is back up
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rhiaro if you still need it
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cwebber2 rhiaro: \o/
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Loqi Cwebber2 made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-08-25-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85434&oldid=0
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AnnB reading the log ... I see, at 9:39, that I 'slaps tsyesika around a bit with a large fishbot' ... apologies! mistakenly slapping
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AnnB then I see query from KevinMarks_, about if I tweet ..
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AnnB yes, I do, although not often
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KevinMarks_ given bridgy, replying to a post on twitter will show up on the post via webmention
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AnnB you said there is wiring available to make tweets show up as comments ..
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AnnB I presume that Amy (whose blog was in question) would have to implement that on her site?
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cwebber2 wseltzer: ping if you have time
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KevinMarks_ eg http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/08/extensibility#mentions
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AnnB now I see (on 8/21, at 1:08) that Amy added onto your comment, "I usually tweet my posts, so if you reply on twitter to any tweet of mine that contains a link to the post you want to reply to, your reply will get pulled through to my site as well"
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KevinMarks_ if you click on the little twitter bird above that it will show up
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KevinMarks_ (and reply to the twitter link)
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KevinMarks_ Tentek pointed out that by having a 'reply on twitter' link on his posts they end up connected tothe indieweb
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KevinMarks_ which is a neat trick
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KevinMarks_ howber, hedoesn't show the replies like amy does
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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AnnB I couldn't get the Twitter bird on Amy's blog to work ..
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AnnB then tried to find her tweet re: her post on extensibility ... to no avail
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AnnB thought I'd try replying in Twitter
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AnnB also, BTW, KevinMarks -- I saw your message (thanks to Loqi!) suggesting I get a withknown account and try this out for myself ... indeed, I should!
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Loqi you're welcome
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AnnB @rhiaro started me down that path months ago when we were at MIT ... and I never came back to it
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rhiaro hey AnnB, you still there? The twitter bird on my posts isn't there to link to the twitter copies
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rhiaro It's a shortcut for myself, so after I post to my site, I can go to it and click that to tweet the link
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rhiaro but having a reply on twitter button is probably a good idea now I'm showing replies
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aaronpk rhiaro: just linking to the tweet is enough, so people can find the twitter thread
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rhiaro AnnB, you can reply to this tweet for that post https://twitter.com/rhiaro/status/634363454724440064 (you probably want to remove some of the @mentions of other people, it's in another thread)
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Loqi @rhiaro :: @kevinmarks @AccBristol @chaals @danbri Somewhat belated, but I finally posted prompted by this conversation http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/08/extensibility
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rhiaro aaronpk: yeah, I haven't figured out how to do that easily yet
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rhiaro Since my POSSE's aren't automatic
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AnnB yo rhiaro, yes still here
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rhiaro The easiest flow right now would be post -> POSSE -> insert the syndication link into my triplestore directly
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rhiaro Don't really want to juggle the twitter api
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KevinMarks ah, I see, sorry
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aaronpk rhiaro: use bridgy publish!
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rhiaro I like to be able to tweak the tweet content by hand
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KevinMarks the way tantek has the twitter reply buttons wrapped in indie-actions would work for yours, rhiaro I think (once you have the tweet url)
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KevinMarks and as you incorporate the webmentions, it would make sense as a comment button
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aaronpk rhiaro: so basically you want an api to publish to twitter that is not the twitter api
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aaronpk say... a micropub api?
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aaronpk maybe kylewm can add twitter to https://silo.pub/
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rhiaro hah, that'd be awesome
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rhiaro but wait, wouldn't my site have to be a micropub client?
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aaronpk yeah but really all that means is you need to make a post request to silo.pub
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rhiaro Hmm, AnnB I see your tweet but bridgy hasn't picked it up
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rhiaro oh wait, i'ts in
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rhiaro too impatient
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AnnB ha!
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rhiaro it'll show up on my post sooon... just gotta fix something
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AnnB cool beans
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ben_thatmustbeme "cool beans" haven't heard that one in a while
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AnnB how about 'groovy'?
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AnnB (not really in my vocab for the last 4 years)
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AnnB I meant 40
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AnnB probly more like 50
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ben_thatmustbeme heh
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AnnB what's the modern equivalent?
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ben_thatmustbeme cool
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ben_thatmustbeme i guess
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aaronpk grool
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ben_thatmustbeme grool?
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm behind the times
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aaronpk oh i guess grool is actualy "great" and "cool"
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ben_thatmustbeme wicked cool
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ben_thatmustbeme for those of us from New England :)
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AnnB love it .. grool
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AnnB wicked cool ... wool? (doesn't quite float)
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rhiaro now you show up AnnB http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/08/extensibility#mentions
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AnnB grool!
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AnnB thanks everyone for tutoring me on all of that
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tantek reads logs
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tantek oh a new post from Amy
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rhiaro it's 5 days old, ancient in web time
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