#social 2015-10-13

2015-10-13 UTC
eprodrom joined the channel
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eprodrom cwebber2: you around?
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eprodrom I started writing a test driver here
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eprodrom https://github.com/evanp/a2test
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eprodrom I just threw in some basic tests from the very first example
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eprodrom There's a dummy consumer which basically fakes its way through
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cwebber2 hi eprodrom
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cwebber2 eprodrom: oh
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cwebber2 well eprodrom quit :P
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cwebber2 I understand now what he meant, I didn't before
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Loqi Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-10-13]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85926&oldid=85921
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Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-10-13]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85930&oldid=85926
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rhiaro_ Morning all. I sketched out a kind of outline of how I see things could be divided up in terms of smaller parts that can be implemented individually, and started fitting the input specs into this outline: http://rhiaro.github.io/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/socialapi
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rhiaro_ I added it to the agenda for today, but don't have much to say on it. Only that this is a potential route towards a unified standard document (or set of documents) based on the specs and implementations we currently have
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cwebber2 rhiaro: \o/
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cwebber2 unrelated, joining the credentials wg call today to see the demos of what they're doing there
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cwebber2 it might be useful to this group, trying to get a sense of overlap
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cwebber2 wow there's cool things going on here re: credentials group
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melvster1 cwebber2: yeah the credentials group is pretty awesome
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cwebber2 melvster1: yeh I'm watching their demo now
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melvster1 anyone else had problems getting webex to work on linux?
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melvster1 cwebber2: which one?
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cwebber2 melvster1: it's going over the payment-centric demo, but showing off login and etc
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cwebber2 I'm really interested in the "did:" stuff they're talking about
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melvster1 cwebber2: got a link?
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cwebber2 https://join.me/digitalbazaar
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cwebber2 melvster1: and /join #credentials on freenode
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cwebber2 call is nearing over. if you're at TPAC, they'll show it there too
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cwebber2 but this is looking *really* promising.
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melvster1 nice!
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cwebber2 melvster1: btw haven't fetched my mail yet in the last hour, but did you see my reply to you today?
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melvster1 yes, it's good stuff, ive been following that work for a few years, and it's maturing now
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melvster1 i think so yes
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melvster1 cwebber2: cool demo! it's improved since I saw it last ...
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cwebber2 melvster1: are you following their "decentralized identity" "did:" scheme stuff
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cwebber2 because that realllllly interests me
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cwebber2 DHT over https, yes please
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melvster1 cwebber2: yes, we had quite a long thread with dave longely about it ... the motivation is portability, I personally prefer http: uris but it's all good
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cwebber2 nods
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melvster1 the challenge with new URI schemes is popularizing them, that's just one more fire to fight for me, but if someone else does that, or there's a use case, I'd be happy to reuse it, otherwise http handles everything I need right now
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cwebber2 nods
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melvster1 cwebber2: glad you like the demo, there was some pushback against the credentials work
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melvster1 is there any way I can test webex before the call starts?
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aaronpk you know you don't have to use the webex client right? there's a phone number you can call as well.
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cwebber2 as long as you're in the US, yeah :)
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cwebber2 I just dial in.
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melvster1 aaronpk: I tried it a couple of times before but got a weird java error, ive dialed in with skype instead as an alternative, but would like to see if I can get webex going on linux ...
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eprodrom jasnell: when you get a chance I'd love your thoughts on the testing framework
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melvster1 I can get to the webex meeting screen: https://mit.webex.com/mw3000/mywebex/default.do?service=1&siteurl=mit&nomenu=true&main_url=%2Fmc3000%2Fe.do%3Fsiteurl%3Dmit%26AT%3DMI%26EventID%3D364255852%26UID%3D512600922%26Host%3DQUhTSwAAAAKwSvsZogyjNRaC0cuMwbs7S03YytBvbCgUV7KOYSLxVtF8_4i-fK0Vo2FWFXZMVkMNyobSzH_JBP-2JWcrDgwE0%26FrameSet%3D2%26MTID%3Dm1a2438c12d92a4f7f5778fd48f5b3001
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melvster1 but it wont let me test further, im not sure which java it wants me to install
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aaronpk you can also call the phone number from within Gmail or google hangouts
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melvster1 aaronpk: oh thanks, but only from the US, right? I think I just need to maybe install oracle java8 or something
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aaronpk no like seriously, just open up gmail and dial the number
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aaronpk it's the internet, it doesn't care where you are
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melvster1 wow, great
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melvster1 i normally do that from skype, but have to pay :)
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rhiaro_ melvster1: google voice/hangouts works fine for me, for free, from not-US
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aaronpk that was one of the nice things about google buying GrandCentral
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melvster1 ah cool, thx
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melvster1 btw working on a little app market for SoLiD : https://files.gitter.im/melvincarvalho/Fjyx/appscreen.png
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cwebber2 well
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hhalpin meeting is in 40 minutes I think
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jasnell eprodrom: saw your note, hopefully will have a chance to look today
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hhalpin If anyone is in London or nearby, there will be a great discussion at http://redecentralize.org/conference/
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hhalpin this coming weekend
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hhalpin eprodrom: Ever catch up with John Cowie from Thoughtworks?
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eprodrom hhalpin: yes
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hhalpin did you think he was acceptable as an IE?
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hhalpin If so, ping me (via email is fine) and I'll enable his account.
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cwebber2 o/ tantek, I left a message for you with Loqi
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melvster1 java8 installed, maybe webex will work now. 'Hangouts needs the Google Talk plug-in to make calls. Install the Google Talk plug-in'
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rhiaro_ melvster1: that takes like 2 seconds
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melvster1 rhiaro_: I have it on chrome, not on firefox, less worried about the time, more about what the proprietary s/w does to my machine
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melvster1 I tend to use firefox for my email, because of speed (lack thereof)
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rhiaro_ I couldn't get WebEx to work on any of my devices
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rhiaro_ Including Android phone
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aaronpk you really should be more concerned with installing java on your machine than installing the google talk plugin, given that there are actual exploits in the wild for java
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melvster1 aaronpk: yes, agree ... I'd rather not install anything
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cwebber2 especially a java application which provides all the right tools to be a trojan horse
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melvster1 totally
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melvster1 but figured getting webex working would be a good thing
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cwebber2 I think it was mentioned last call that there would be international numbers provided
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cwebber2 did that happen btw
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cwebber2 ?
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hhalpin Again, W3C is happy for us to use Mumble
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hhalpin we just need to do a call for consensus in the WG
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hhalpin add it to the agenda?
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aaronpk this is gonna be a long call
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster1: you have been on 1 call before haven't you?
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ben_thatmustbeme how did you get on that time?
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ben_thatmustbeme i would be fine switching to mummble but would -1 it until we at least try it first
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cwebber2 sure, doing a test call would be fine
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aaronpk a subset of the group could try a trial call later today or later this week
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melvster1 ben_thatmustbeme: normally use skype, I think I was on about 100 calls that way in the XG
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ben_thatmustbeme no, i meant i thought you were on a socialwg call once already
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ben_thatmustbeme i might be mistaken
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melvster1 yes, skype
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melvster1 skype lets you dial in if you have credit, which I Do
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, okay
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, you shouldn't have to pay though
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Loqi Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-13]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85933&oldid=85930
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hhalpin added mumble option to our discussion
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tantek hey cwebber2
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tantek catching up
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Loqi tantek: cwebber2 left you a message on 10/12 at 10:27am: Hey, you may wish to read this thread before the next meeting starts http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Oct/0013.html http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-10-12/line/1444670847917
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ben_thatmustbeme looks at his watch
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Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-13]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85934&oldid=85933
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jasnell will be a few minutes late to the call
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hhalpin present+ hhalpin
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hhalpin trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/13-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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aaronpk present+ aaronpk
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 13 October 2015
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hhalpin present+ hhalpin
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tantek present+ tantek
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eprodrom present+ eprodrom
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eprodrom o/ hhalpin
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ben_thatmustbeme present+ ben_thatmustbeme
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eprodrom any scribes?
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cwebber2 present+ cwebber
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kevinmarks present+ kevinmarks
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tantek cwebber2 seems like a reasonable email. Only thing I may take issue is the implied "war" - as there have been a bunch of us working very hard for many years to both get lots of interop, and to take lessons learned from various approaches and iterate / integrate accordingly.
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csarven present+ csarven
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eprodrom jasnell: are you on your way?
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eprodrom Arnaud: joined?
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rhiaro_ present+ rhiaro
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wilkie present+ wilkie
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jasnell will be there in a couple
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hhalpin My feeling is that the RDF and microformat discussion has been quite predominant, and would be good to simply call it a truce and go back to JSON for interop.
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ben_thatmustbeme we are up to 12 on the call
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hhalpin And if folks want to treat like that JSON(LD) that's good, but let's not get religious about it.
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ben_thatmustbeme Arnaud is on
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ben_thatmustbeme at least his name is there
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tantek cwebber2 we're not "done" by any measure, but I think we made a lot of progress, both in terms of approaches (e.g. simplifying RDFa to just use property instead of property & rel), and in terms of extensibility (e.g. microformats2 separation of syntax and vocabularies, and specification for how vendors can do extensions or experiments like in CSS)
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hhalpin As pragmatically, most developers will likely treat it as JSON
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Arnaud looking at the spinning "connecting..." again
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Arnaud present+ Arnaud
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hhalpin notes I've added moving to Mumble to the agenda
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tantek cwebber2 bottom line - I dislike the "war" characterization because many of us with different approaches have been spent a lot of time working hard on interop and areas of agreement.
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Arnaud go ahead
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eprodrom scribe?
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ben_thatmustbeme \me Arnaud, i did hear you for a moment there
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rhiaro_ scribed last week, but if nobody else wants to..
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eprodrom Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim Present: Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tantek, hhalpin
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jasnell present+ james
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hhalpin Happy to scribe
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hhalpin scribe: hhalpin
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tsyesika present+ tsyesika
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-13
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wseltzer present+ wseltzer
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hhalpin topic: Approval of minutes from last week
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-06-minutes
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hhalpin +1
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cwebber2 +1
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tantek quickly skims the minutes
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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eprodrom +1
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wilkie +1
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tantek looks fine. +1
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hhalpin APPROVED: Minutes of 10-6-2015 approved
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hhalpin topic: Discussion of F2F
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01
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hhalpin eprodrom: Our agenda is developing nicely
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hhalpin ... good number of people attending
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akuckartz present+ akuckartz
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 marks himself as attending
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cwebber2 I need to find crashspace, thoug.
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hhalpin ... do we have space?
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cwebber2 though
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hhalpin tantek: I can confirm space for up to 12 without difficulty
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hhalpin ... by end of month, if we need space for more than 12 we're fine
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hhalpin ... right now, we have 6
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Arnaud we're still missing a lot of names on the wiki
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cwebber2 6 now
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cwebber2 I just added myself :)
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hhalpin I'll ask for W3C if they will support travel.
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Arnaud please, put your name, in one of the categories!
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cwebber2 \o/
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hhalpin tantek: Please add yourself as a 'maybe'
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hhalpin ... with whatever caveats you want to add
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hhalpin ... so I can gauge scope and size of room needed
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hhalpin ... also add yourself to regrets if you can't come
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ben_thatmustbeme as long as we actually get to it
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hhalpin jasnell, are you on the call yet?
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85935&oldid=85909
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85938&oldid=85937
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Loqi Cwebber2 made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85940&oldid=85876
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Loqi Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85937&oldid=85936
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Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85939&oldid=85938
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hhalpin otherwise, we can do Social API first
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hhalpin topic: AS 2.0
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hhalpin jasnell: The new version was published on Tuesday with license change
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tantek jasnell++ for publishing new AS2 docs with new license!
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hhalpin eprodrom: awesome
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Loqi jasnell has 31 karma
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akuckartz URL ?
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hhalpin ... what's next?
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tantek akuckartz, at the usual /TR I presume
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hhalpin ... if there's any other changes
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hhalpin q+
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Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack hhalpin
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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hhalpin Should we go for wider review before we push for CR?
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hhalpin Should we do this wider push before or after F2F?
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Arnaud the process requires us to have broad review before going to CR
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Arnaud it's the "virtual Last Call"
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hhalpin Indeed, noting Kevin Mark's email, looking at existing AS1.0 users
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hhalpin eprodrom: I've reached out to SugarCRM, etc.
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hhalpin ... its not so much about going to Candidate or about deciding if we go to Candidate
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hhalpin ... and that internal decision will be based on f2f
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ben_thatmustbeme q+ Just a point of clarity regarding CR
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Zakim ben_thatmustbeme, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams#implementations
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hhalpin I've started some outreach to thoughtworks etc.
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hhalpin but will aim for me, let's remember we have a deadline re outreach
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme try "q+ to say that ..."
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ben_thatmustbeme q+ to Just a point of clarity regarding CR
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack ben_thatmustbeme
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Zakim ben_thatmustbeme, you wanted to Just a point of clarity regarding CR
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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hhalpin ben: Don't we need wide review before hitting Last Call?
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hhalpin Arnaud: Yes, even though there is no "last call" step anymore
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hhalpin ... but you need to do it before CR
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hhalpin eprodrom: Do we commit to that process or decide at our F2F?
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hhalpin ... my guess is we commit at F2F
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hhalpin sandro: That decision is largely based on the amount of review beforehand
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Zakim hhalpin, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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hhalpin eprodrom: I want a number or orgs to basically agree we will be implement
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hhalpin Notes that maybe people doing outreach should put their names in the wiki after the group
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eprodrom hhalpin: still scribing?
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hhalpin yes, but trying to catch the voice
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eprodrom https://github.com/evanp/a2test
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hhalpin who is speaking?
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wilkie cwebber2
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Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-13]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85941&oldid=85934
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Loqi Kmarks2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85942&oldid=85940
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hhalpin cwebber2: I discussed with Evan how to implement AS2.0 and we've started a repo for test
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hhalpin ... now after some misstarts I'm working on a validator in addition to test-suite
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hhalpin ... things are moving forward
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hhalpin eprodrom: We have at least a framework for a test-suite
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eprodrom https://github.com/evanp/activitystreams.js-test
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hhalpin ... testing the data format
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hhalpin ... requests for producing and consuming AS2.0
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hhalpin ... wrapper for AS2.0 implementation
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akuckartz Answering my own question: http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/
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hhalpin ... would like jasnell's review in particular, but want
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hhalpin ... additional review and a wrapper for java version
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hhalpin ... need to talk to TW around their implementation
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hhalpin jasnell: The java version is out of date due to lack of time
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hhalpin I think TW has some cycles for this, will be seeing them Firday
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hhalpin eprodrom: we can then do hackathons and libraries in multiple languages
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hhalpin ... right now, we have node.js
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hhalpin ... need python and an out of date java
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hhalpin ... a hackathon before the f2f would be great
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hhalpin jasnell: I'll look at it soon
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hhalpin eprodrom: multiple types on objects etc.
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hhalpin ... any github/tracker updates?
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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hhalpin jasnell: Number of issues, 8 remaining issues on github tracker
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jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues
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hhalpin ... stuff we need some resolution on, please take a look and weigh in
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hhalpin eprodrom: Some are fine-grained
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hhalpin ... a few interesting
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hhalpin ... the media/type MIME argument
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hhalpin ... can we do Editor's Choice and WG decision
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hhalpin q+
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Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
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hhalpin jasnell: lack of @id in examples, MIME type needs WG decision, etc.
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hhalpin ... the rest is more 'something that we need or not'
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hhalpin ... want comments on 208, 205, 175, and 152
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hhalpin jasnell: 152 and 205 may need WG discussion
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hhalpin ... 175 or 157
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akuckartz Issue 52 needs input!
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trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
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eprodrom ack hhalpin
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 btw I put an item under social api for this week's agenda, but accidentally put it on last week's agenda because I added it to the latest one
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hhalpin Process point - close them by f2f, so have editor state his proposal or 'don't care', and then try to get consensus on each editor proposal
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hhalpin if not, list options and do straw polls
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hhalpin topic: Social API
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hhalpin rhiaro: Map what currently exists to what implementations we have
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cwebber2 and the latest one wasn't this week's meeting up yet ;\
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cwebber2 +q
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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hhalpin ... think its a useful way to move forward
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hhalpin eprodrom: Let's get review this week
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eprodrom ack cwebber2
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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hhalpin it would be good to get a FPWD after our F2F if we have consensus
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eprodrom ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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hhalpin cwebber2: I did write an email to the call
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eprodrom https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Oct/0013.html
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hhalpin ... I was interested in whether or not AS2 should be mandatory or not
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hhalpin ... we should address this
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hhalpin ... two compoenents:
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hhalpin ... 1) One difficulty has been a cycle of conversation between microformats vs Linked Data for the last 15 years
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melvster1 linked data didnt exist 15 years ago
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hhalpin ... probably not helpful to continue to have those discussions in the WG
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster1++
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hhalpin I believe it was just RDF
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Loqi melvster1 has 3 karma
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hhalpin there has been an ongoing argument betwen RDF and microformats obviously.
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kevinmarks microformats din't either; 12 years maybe
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ben_thatmustbeme can we get back to the agenda?
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hhalpin ... we should specify a deliverable
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tantek yes KevinMarks 12 years if you count XFN in 2003
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hhalpin ... at last call we were worried that there would be no deliverables for client-server API, federation, etc.
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hhalpin ... so I think we need to agree whether or not AS2 should be mandatory to implement
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hhalpin ... then we can finally move on the API
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hhalpin ... but without that level of agreement we are having trouble moving forward
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kevinmarks +q
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Zakim sees kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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hhalpin eprodrom: What the resolution would look like?
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hhalpin cwebber2: To agree we implement to AS2.0 for whatever is sent to endpoint-to-endpoint
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hhalpin ... then we can move forward for other things we are stuck on
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hhalpin q+ kevinmarks
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Zakim sees kevinmarks on the speaker queue
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hhalpin q+
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Zakim sees kevinmarks, hhalpin on the speaker queue
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hhalpin ... tantek has figured how to map microformats to RDF's type system
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hhalpin ... that seems like a good proposal
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tantek present+ tantek
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hhalpin ... then we can figure out whether or not we can move forward
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eprodrom PROPOSAL: require AS2.0 for Social API and Federation Protocol
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kevinmarks -1
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aaronpk uh
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aaronpk -1
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cwebber2 +1
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wilkie +1
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wilkie LOL
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hhalpin cwebber2: It's not other things are not possible, but one is mandatory
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hhalpin +1
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eprodrom +1
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tsyesika +1
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melvster1 +0 need to see what AS2.0 is first (mime type will affect existing tooling)
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eprodrom ack kevinmarks
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Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
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hhalpin eprodrom: An interesting point about where dynamic is
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csarven -1
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akuckartz +0
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tantek +0 I'd like to improve AS2 more before making it mandatory for anything
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wilkie practically speaking, a good implementation will have both AS2 and render with microformats. it is practical to have one required though.
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hhalpin kevinmarks: The fundamental disagreement is are we trying to legislate or are we trying to document
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aaronpk kevinmarks++
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rhiaro_ -1. AS2 could be SHOULD but not MUST
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Loqi kevinmarks has 173 karma
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hhalpin ... what's actually working in the wild
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hhalpin ... the point is that the microformat effort has succeeded
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eprodrom ack hhalpin
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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wilkie well, we could have servers negotiate... do they serve AS2 or just tagged html and then servers will then automatically be required to do both by not requiring one
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wilkie it's a fun fact of distributed system design
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kevinmarks microformats have a consistent JSON format for all those languages now
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tantek we do have JSON explicit in our charter for Social Syntax - just pointing that out in the hopes that we at least don't have to debate that?
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ben_thatmustbeme JSON is suggested in the charter
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csarven Charter says JSON, and possible JSON-LD as a convention.
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melvster1 "most people will drop the @context" -- why?
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aaronpk because it's not actuall necessary to get stuff done
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wilkie melvster1: because it will probably work without it, and people do that stuff all the time
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: i stand corrected
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ben_thatmustbeme s/:/,/
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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hhalpin As the author of the charter, JSON is a requirement
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hhalpin JSON-LD was optional
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hhalpin Sorry guys, but that seemed a rather obvious compromise to me
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hhalpin Particularly in terms of developer community size
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hhalpin most modern developers send JSON via HTTP APIs
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ben_thatmustbeme no, thats a fine compramise to me
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hhalpin See Go, Ruby, Django, etc.
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kevinmarks documenting is moving things forward
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eprodrom http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter
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ben_thatmustbeme i was just being specific about it
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm fine with JSON
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kevinmarks mandating things that no-one implements isn't
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csarven hhalpin Makes perfect sense to me; if JSON, a "convention" needs to be picked, and so JSON-LD is a good candidate.
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hhalpin So, we just need good mappings from mf2 (needs more work but possible) and RDF (JSON-LD solves this, but RDF folks need to stop being so pushy over fine details that most JSON devs don't care about)
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ben_thatmustbeme hhalpin++
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Loqi hhalpin has 8 karma
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cwebber2 why have we put all this time into AS2 if it isn't good enough of a structure? :\
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tantek eprodrom: if we are not comfortable requiring JSON as in the charter, we need to figure out alternative, if we are not comfortable requiring AS2, we need to figure out an alternative
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wilkie hhalpin++
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Loqi hhalpin has 9 karma
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tantek eprodrom: if we can't agree with the charter says, we need to come up with alternatives
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tantek eprodrom: I'm looking for some guidance
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hhalpin eprodrom: I'm looking for some guidance
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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hhalpin sorry, had to stop scribing for a sec to catch up with my own thought
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hhalpin eprodrom: I see a lot of -1s.
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hhalpin eprodrom: Let's try to resolve this and get a proposal we can accept.
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hhalpin I'm happy to flesh out my proposal over the next week or two in terms of RDF/mf2 interop
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cwebber2 it's fine, I realize it was kind of a bombshell :P
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akuckartz eprodrom++
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Loqi eprodrom has 27 karma
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hhalpin That being said, as a reality check, 99% of web devs use JSON, not mf or RDF
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eprodrom PROPOSAL: accept PTD as an editor's draft for continued development as part of the WG
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, bombshells are fine but maybe put it on the agenda first
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hhalpin mf has higher uptake in web-pages than any other format
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: I did, I just messed up and put it on the wrong agenda :P
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hhalpin and RDF has a sizable community as well
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kevinmarks 100% of web devs use HTML
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hhalpin topic: Type discovery
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hhalpin Yes, but NOT mf2
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cwebber2 so yeah I failed ;p
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hhalpin sorry, but that's true
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tantek issue-4
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trackbot is looking up issue-4.
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trackbot issue-4 -- Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names? -- open
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/4
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hhalpin So we can't force parsing HTML on people who see JSON as easier
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2 haha, no problem, we all make mistakes
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melvster1 kevinmarks++
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Loqi kevinmarks has 174 karma
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eprodrom https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery
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kevinmarks sure, but claiming that JSON is JSON-LD is more tendentious
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tantek action-35
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trackbot is looking up action-35.
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RRSAgent sees no action items
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trackbot action-35 -- Tantek Çelik to Come up with a simple proposal for implicit typing based on property names -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/35
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hhalpin however, I agree with the general goal that people who embed data into web-pages using mf seems to work well
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eprodrom tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 246 karma
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hhalpin so it should be supported, it has wider uptake
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eprodrom excellent guessing
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hhalpin tantek: We have implicit typing
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hhalpin ... we can get interop in mf2 with AS2
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kevinmarks no-one is forcing you to parse mf2, we have many parsers for you out there
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hhalpin ... its a small, modular draft
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hhalpin my point is *most* people don't use mf2 in modern webdev frameworks. They use HTTP APIs that deliver JSON
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cwebber2 rhiaroif it was the same proposal, but SHOULD instead of MUST for as2
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hhalpin tantek: My request is that the group accept it as editors draft
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cwebber2 rhiaro
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hhalpin however, my second point is the main issue is AS1 and AS2 has little uptake
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cwebber2 would that affect your response btw?
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hhalpin My point is that JSON *itself* has much wider updake than either RDF or mf2
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rhiaro_ cwebber2: I could live with SHOULD
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hhalpin so that should be a common conversion pattern
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cwebber2 rhiaro_: noted
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csarven q+ ISSUE/ACTION is not clear to me.. there is a minor gap. What are the actual implications of this to current AS2? Is ACTION-25 meant to provide an alternative (implicit)?
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Zakim csarven, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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hhalpin tantek: I would like to keep that mechanism the same
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kevinmarks no-one is arguing against JSON
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csarven q+ ISSUE/ACTION is not clear to me..
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Zakim csarven, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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csarven q+ ISSUE/ACTION is not clear to me
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Zakim csarven, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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hhalpin furthermore, it's not a small difference: it's several orders of magnitude in terms of uptake
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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csarven q+
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Zakim sees csarven on the speaker queue
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aaronpk try q+ to discuss
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csarven :)
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ben_thatmustbeme i made a quick point that i was corrected on that could have been seen as that kevinmarks
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eprodrom ack csarven
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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kevinmarks mandating the specific JSON-LD vocab that is under draft was what was being proposed
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hhalpin PROPOSAL: Take up tantek's post-type discovery as a Working Draft of the WG
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Arnaud I think this is in keeping with the trend of untyped languages like Javascript with all of its pros and cons :)
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tantek hhalpin, as an Editor's draft
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hhalpin s/Working Draft/Editor's Draft
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hhalpin csarven: The result of ACTION-35 is to change from implicit to explicit approach
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hhalpin ... so we have an algorithm to deal with implicit approach
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery
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Arnaud the claim "explicit post types that are being abandoned by modern post creation UIs" probably ought to be backed up with some references though
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hhalpin tantek: Accept the document as a work-item
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hhalpin ... that's all I'm proposing
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hhalpin ... for systems that require explicit typing it expands content they can consumer
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hhalpin ... we've had some good experience
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aaronpk Arnaud, see: facebook and twitter
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kevinmarks arnaud look at the Medium and Buzzfeed post editors if you want mainstream UI
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hhalpin I am going to note that it appears the mf2 community is the most active implementers
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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hhalpin tantek: We've had good feedback
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hhalpin csarven: We would mention that we could say "explicit" or "implicit"
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Arnaud I'm not questioning the claim, just pointing out that this ought to have a reference, your examples would work
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kevinmarks instead of a post type, they both have a series of blocks that enable you to post different content types as part fo a post
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hhalpin tantek: I would work with jasnell to see if we could do co-ordinate and browsers tend to do this
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hhalpin q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom, hhalpin on the speaker queue
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hhalpin csarven: That makes sense
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hhalpin eprodrom: This is the pattern used in micropub
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hhalpin ... with POST parameters for intended types of parameters
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hhalpin ... correct?
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hhalpin tantek: If you are an AS2 consumer that has explicit types
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hhalpin ... the micropub use-case is an explicit one
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aaronpk q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom, hhalpin, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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hhalpin ... one of the implementations is to do this
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eprodrom ack aaronpk
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Zakim sees eprodrom, hhalpin on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
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melvster1 JSON LD has implicit typing (elf posted some links to the ML)
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hhalpin aaronpk: when I receive a micropub request based on what's in it
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hhalpin ... it shows up in different feeds
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cwebber2 melvster1: yeah but the goal here is to help microformats->AS2
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cwebber2 which I think doesn't work with elf's examples
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cwebber2 in that sense it might also be helpful in getting from microformats->rdf
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cwebber2 I think?
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eprodrom http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
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hhalpin eprodrom: There's the types mentioned in a webmention, thats where these properties came from
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rhiaro_ I have my own version to decide internally how to display posts based on the properties: http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/09/post-type
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hhalpin ... are we documenting existing behavior?
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, i do something similar
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme but this actually helps clear some parts up and makes sense to me
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hhalpin tantek: All sorts of ways of doing responses, but its mainly trying to do things like distinguish between articles and notes
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eprodrom ack hhalpin
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme can we just vote on the proposal?
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hhalpin Editors draft does not mean we have consensus, just its a reasonable thing to be working on and within scope
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hhalpin usually in W3C it's a fairly low bar
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hhalpin I would vote for it as it seems useful to a particular community and necessary for interop
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eprodrom +1
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aaronpk +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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hhalpin +1
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cwebber2 +1
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tantek +1
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rhiaro_ +1
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kevinmarks +1
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wilkie +1
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sandro +1
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akuckartz +0
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tsyesika +1
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eprodrom RESOLVED: Take up tantek's post-type discovery as a Working Draft of the WG
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hhalpin RESOLVED: Accept Post-type discovery as an editor's draft
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sandro present+ sandro
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ben_thatmustbeme q+
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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hhalpin eprodrom: Can you move this to the wiki Tantek?
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hhalpin q+
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme, hhalpin on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme, hhalpin on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack ben_thatmustbeme
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Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
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tantek will do! thanks everyone
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hhalpin ben: Let's have a flat agenda
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hhalpin ... rather than devote too much to the first topic
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hhalpin s/too much/too much time
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hhalpin ben: Single items rather than going through actions
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hhalpin ... use github issues
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hhalpin ... even if it's skipping around subjets
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hhalpin s/subjets/topics
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
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tantek +1 to flat agenda - allows us more freedom to FIFO different topics and make sure we get to different topics in the order raised / added to agenda
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hhalpin I'm not on this point
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eprodrom PROPOSAL: flat agenda where we use bullet points
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rhiaro_ +1
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hhalpin tantek: CSS WG does it this way
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aaronpk +1
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wilkie +0
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hhalpin +0
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cwebber2 0
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Arnaud I have to admit not to understand what a flat agenda means
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eprodrom -1
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akuckartz -0
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eprodrom q
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Arnaud it's too bad because I'd be very interested to understand
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
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hhalpin We could run an experiment and try it once
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eprodrom ack hhalpin
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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Arnaud but we're out of time
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tantek Arnaud - see CSS WG telcon agendas as an example
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tantek posted to www-style
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sandro -1 I want phone dialin, as much as I like mumble for some things
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ben_thatmustbeme Arnaud: it would mean this would have had more time than the last minute on the call to discuss this
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Arnaud to be more explicit: the problem seems to be about time allocation
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sandro but we could try one of the other phone dialin options
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hhalpin any objections to mumble?
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Arnaud I don't know that the format of the agenda is the problem
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cwebber2 so, sounds like objections. ok!
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hhalpin What we need is mumble + phone dial-in :)
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akuckartz +1 to using open source compatible solution
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cwebber2 but
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cwebber2 I think we still need to handle the international phone version :P
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hhalpin Although notes non-US folks can't dial-in as easily
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tantek -1 I want phone dialin also like sandro
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eprodrom agenda item for next week?
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hhalpin eprodrom: lets revisit next week
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ben_thatmustbeme can it be the top of the agenda next week?
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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tantek hhalpin: I'm using Google Hangouts on iOS over wifi to make a "phone call"
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kevinmarks the workaround for no-us is to use google hangouts which does require an account, but has free us calling
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hhalpin eprodrom: meeting adjourned, talk to you next week
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tantek hhalpin++ for minuting!
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hhalpin trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber,
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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Loqi hhalpin has 10 karma
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Zakim ... tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika, wseltzer, akuckartz
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/13-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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eprodrom kevinmarks: right, but some of the people don't want to use Google Hangouts
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kevinmarks sure
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kevinmarks other services offer free us calling too
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akuckartz I would like to see a system using WebRTC
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kevinmarks I just meant it is easier than getting webex working
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aaronpk i can make a webrtc to phone bridge if someone is willing to contribute a little $$
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kevinmarks I agree that WebRTC is great
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cwebber2 btw, I think kevinmarks(?) is right in that there's a component of "are we documenting the real world" vs "are we putting forward a standard to implement", and that's an unresolved part of this group
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cwebber2 though it's also notable
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ben_thatmustbeme Arnaud, eprodrom, this is actually the exact problem the proposal is trying to solve, we rush these "other items" in at the end of the meeting, if -1s result from the fact that its just the last few minutes (which is fair, we need time to discuss) anything that is in the "other items" can just get pushed off indefinitely and never given adequate time to discuss
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Arnaud ben_thatmustbeme, you could have two bullets on the agenda and spend the whole hour on the first one and you'd end up with the same frustration
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tantek akuckartz: I would too! WebRTC++
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cwebber2 federation doesn't really exist on a real scale
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aaronpk the twilio api has a webrtc bridge
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tantek but the software is just not there yet
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ben_thatmustbeme Arnaud: true, except bullet 3 would be the top of the next week
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aaronpk it costs a little per minute, but is not outrageous
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kevinmarks well, it is, but only really in chrome
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cwebber2 so it's kind of a pile of barely implemented incompatible stuff right now
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Arnaud ok, that I understand
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akuckartz tantek: I will try to make a proposal next week ;-)
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ben_thatmustbeme more like a rolling bulletted list
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Arnaud but it's not the flatness that makes that happen :)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme is right - having a flat agenda avoids the topic-starvation problem
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Arnaud you can do the same with the current format
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Arnaud just make sure you move things around
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Arnaud I think that's fair
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tantek the assumption of a flat agenda is that you discuss things in the order added
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ben_thatmustbeme this topic i actually added the the agenda as soon as the agenda was proposed, and it didn't get any discussion time this week because of the formatting
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tantek and anything not discussed rolls over to next week
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Arnaud ok
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ben_thatmustbeme s/proposed/posted
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kevinmarks so treat the agenda as a queue, with only chairs able to adjust ordering?
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tantek Arnaud the current format means AS2 issues can starve everything else
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Arnaud that's poor chairing from our part
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tantek that's the point of breaking up the clusters
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Arnaud we can and should have time limits
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tantek the clusters in the agenda make it extra work (harder) for the chairs to do anything FIFO like
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rhiaro_ Like, AS2 has one or two important items under that heading, and a bunch of stuff that's less important. But the less important stuff gets to take up time because it's all in one place at the top.
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tantek rhiaro: right
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Arnaud if we have spent too much time on AS2 we need to stop and move on
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rhiaro_ Stuff that could be discussed if time, gets discussed instead of stuff that needs to be discussed
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tantek Arnaud: or we have a flat time-ordered agenda and don't have to worry about topic-starvation
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tantek because any agenda items not addressed get addressed the next week etc.
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Arnaud ok
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Arnaud I find the name "flat agenda" not really descriptive of what you are talking about, round robbing or something like that would be better in my opinion
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aaronpk "round robining"?
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kevinmarks cwebber2: I found this quote that sums up well what I am getting at: https://kindle.amazon.com/post/HLglK_6oRhOnsiQSo829eg
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Arnaud but now that I understand I'm fine with that
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tantek Arnaud: flat in contrast to grouped
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kevinmarks linear agenda?
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tantek perhaps FIFO would be more descriptive
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Arnaud aaronk: sorry, round robin :)
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tantek to make the ordering more clear
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ben_thatmustbeme heh FIFO
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Arnaud linear, flat, are missing the point
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kevinmarks “Language is not a protocol legislated by an authority but rather a wiki that pools the contributions of millions of writers and speakers, who ceaselessly bend the language to their needs and who inexorably age, die, and get replaced by their children, who adapt the language in their turn.”
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Arnaud the point is the order
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Arnaud kevinmarks: go tell that to the French Academy :-)
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Arnaud fifo is good
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kevinmarks I don't need to; millions of French speakers already are.
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rhiaro_ Minutes correction:
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rhiaro_ [13:30:09] <hhalpin> rhiaro: Map what currently exists to what implementations we have
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rhiaro_ -> rhiaro: This is an outline of how I understand the different pieces of the SocialAPI and how they fit together or could be considered independantly, which I've started to fill with the equivalent parts of existing specs - as a potential route to convergence.
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rhiaro_ cwebber2, you were minuted as saying [13:35:38] <hhalpin> ... tantek has figured how to map microformats to RDF's type system
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rhiaro_ is that accurate to what you said?
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cwebber2 rhiaro_: I think I said something closer to "I think tantek's proposal might be able to map microformats to types"
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cwebber2 since that's my rough understanding
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-13-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85944&oldid=0
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tantek right - high level (user level) post types
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tantek I'm not claiming to know anything about RDF's type system :)
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cwebber2 tantek: do you think it could be used to map to specific AS2 vocabulary types?
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cwebber2 because that could be really helpful for convergence purposes
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tantek cwebber2: yes - and the "like" example demonstrates that https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Like_post
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cwebber2 tantek: +1
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tantek I'd rather focus on ways of interoperating than wars.
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cwebber2 +1 there too.
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cwebber2 who is right and wrong in long running disagreements preceding this group is out of scope. but how to work together is totally in scope.
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cwebber2 or at least I hope :)
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tantek I think we can make a lot of progress with the combination of documenting what's been implemented, and how to interoperate with multiple approaches.
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