#social 2015-10-20

2015-10-20 UTC
bblfish, Arnaud, shepazu, jasnell, asbjornu and the_frey joined the channel
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: hey, that thing about clustering agenda items was discussed on last week's agenda and failed a vote
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eprodrom Why is it up again?
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eprodrom Putting together the agenda for the meeting is the chair's responsibility
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eprodrom And keeping the pacing of the agenda
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eprodrom AS2 takes up a lot of our time because it's the closest thing we have to an actual product
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eprodrom I'm not sure what else you'd like to talk about
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eprodrom But as a chair, it's really irritating to me to have you micro-managing how I do my job
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: it was given 1 minute, failed a vote and primary because no time to discuss
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: let's discuss it now
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ben_thatmustbeme the fact that it was entirely pushed off the agenda until the last minute was really frustrating for me
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eprodrom I don't think it was on the agenda
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ben_thatmustbeme nothing says the chair can't reorganize however they want
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ben_thatmustbeme it was, it was the first thing on it
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eprodrom Ugh, really?
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eprodrom So, you inserted something into the agenda at the top, and you wanted it discussed then?
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ben_thatmustbeme no, i inserted at the top when the agenda was first created
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eprodrom ?
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eprodrom OK
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eprodrom Well, I'm sorry we didn't get to it till the end
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eprodrom But the outcome would have been the same
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ben_thatmustbeme its okay, like i said, you were chair, you can move things around however
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eprodrom Right
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eprodrom Thanks!
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ben_thatmustbeme the point of it, was to stop things that get moved from last week to not get starved and end up at the very end again
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eprodrom So, I'm not going to be in the meeting today
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ben_thatmustbeme if we continue on the clustered format it would be the very last thing today
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ben_thatmustbeme and again, get only 1 minute at the end
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eprodrom Well, let's see if Tantek edits the agenda
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eprodrom It already has a -1 from me, but I won't be in the meeting today, so you can probably ram it through
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ben_thatmustbeme well, thats not really what i want
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ben_thatmustbeme so the problem is that if I add something to the agenda, and then someone adds 10 things to as2, as2 monopolizes the meeting
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eprodrom I'm not sure where this format that we use came from
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eprodrom I guess I'm just not sure this is the most important thing to do right now
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ben_thatmustbeme every meeting i've been in (in person) usually does that type of bulletted list, so if you don't get to something its first on the agenda in the next meeting
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eprodrom But I understand your point better
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eprodrom At last meeting PTD got inserted before the other stuff on the agenda, and during the meeting I moved it down
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eprodrom I thought this was a response to that on-the-fly agenda-editing
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eprodrom From my point of view, moving forward the documents we're actually supposed to deliver is the most important job
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, when you did that you dropped that item and the item about other call types past the closing stuff on the agenda
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ben_thatmustbeme thats why it didn't seem like it was on there
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eprodrom Gotcha
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ben_thatmustbeme actually, it would make editing on the fly easier i would guess, much easier to move things around when its only in one section
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ben_thatmustbeme but if you are -1 on it, i guess its rather moot
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eprodrom Well, let's see
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eprodrom So the idea is that we have a flat bulleted list of agenda items
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eprodrom Maybe with some tagging by topic
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eprodrom It'd probably be nice to clean up the page; they're pretty complicated right now
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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eprodrom But I'm a little worried that you don't want to talk about AS2
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: has done nice things with color coded tages in wikis before i believe
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eprodrom Since it's probably going to be the only deliverable we actually produce out of this WG
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm really hoping its not
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eprodrom I'm glad you are!
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ben_thatmustbeme as far as my email by the way, i'll certainly stick close to AS2, i just want to get some implementation experience and hopefully unify on something thats easier to go from mf2 -> mf2json -> somestandardjson
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ben_thatmustbeme PTD will help with that
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ben_thatmustbeme just need to find people willing to try some ideas out that i have
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: you seemed interested
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Loqi Eprodrom made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86051&oldid=86019
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eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: I changed my -1 to a +1 on the agenda
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ben_thatmustbeme cool, thanks
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Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86052&oldid=86051
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cwebber2 hi ben_thatmustbeme, I'm interested in further convergence and seeing such writeups, yes
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll put something together. I ideally want to just get a few base cases working of federating a like maybe which i think is probably the simplest case there can be
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ben_thatmustbeme basically webmention to notify of a new update, and than an endpoint for some standard JSON pull of an activity, that way you can use whatever you want underneath
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed, i could write one endpoint that would do the work for me and others entirely.
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ben_thatmustbeme i suppose my question would be, for mediagoblin whats your first priority for federation?
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: btw did you read the ActivityPump spec top to bottom?
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cwebber2 it may be helpful in seeing what's useful there and isn't for you.
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cwebber2 but anyway, ben_thatmustbeme we're aiming to federate information about different media posts happening so you can "subscribe" to each others' channels, we want federated commenting, and we want the ability to favorite across instances.
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: last question, is this all private data or publicly addressable? I ask because publicly addressable to start with simplifies a lot, we don't have to deal with securing anything to start with, just getting it working
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ben_thatmustbeme and i have not read all of activityPump yet, though I thought it was for client->server which I think really has different use cases
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: it's currently all public, but we promised we'd support private media in our last campaign as soon as we go the basis of federation working
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cwebber2 so soon it won't be
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: it's client->server and server<->server
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cwebber2 and uses mostly the same api for both
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: it's pretty short... read it!
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cwebber2 http://w3c-social.github.io/activitypump/
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cwebber2 note that the discovery mechanism is not permanent
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cwebber2 we will probably take a different approach, that was to get something in there for the paris F2f
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Loqi Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86056&oldid=86052
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86057&oldid=86056
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber i have a number of questions on activitypump but i'll wait until i read over everything again to make sure
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ben_thatmustbeme working at the moment at the same time
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wilkie hello all
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86058&oldid=86057
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Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86059&oldid=85942
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wilkie o/
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wilkie what is the AS2 activity for waving
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elf-pavlik "@type": [ "Activity", "ex:Wave" ] ;)
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elf-pavlik or you may need to discover this type via ex-wave-to property or something like that :D
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wilkie nice
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wilkie haha
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elf-pavlik https++ https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/lets-encrypt-enters-private-beta
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tantek present+ tantek
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aaronpk start minutes first
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sandro trackbot, start meeting
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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aaronpk present+ aaronpk
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 20 October 2015
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cwebber2 present+ cwebber
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Arnaud present+ Arnaud
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elf-pavlik present+ elf-pavlik
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tantek present+ tantek
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sandro present+ sandro
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ben_thatmustbeme present+ ben_thatmustbeme
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elf-pavlik i can scribe
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aaronpk i can scribe
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jasnell present+ jasnell
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rhiaro_ present+ rhiaro
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csarven present+ csarven
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csarven elf-pavlik That shouldn't be a problem.
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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tantek scribe: aaronpk
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aaronpk TOPIC admin
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tantek zakim, who is here?
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Zakim Present: Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika,
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Zakim ... wseltzer, akuckartz
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Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, csarven, melvster, shepazu, tantek, jasnell, bblfish, elf-pavlik, asbjornu, Arnaud, rhiaro_, kevinmarks, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme, rrika, wilkie, bret,
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Zakim ... aaronpk, tommorris_, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, bigbluehat, Zakim, dwhly, pdurbin, rhiaro, slvrbckt, tsyesika, raucao, sandro, trackbot, wseltzer_transit
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aaronpk tantek: participation is limited to members, looks good.
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aaronpk regrets from evan
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aaronpk TOPIC: approval of minutes from last week
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tsyesika present+ tsyesika
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rhiaro_ I tweaked the minutes a bit
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aaronpk https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-13-minutes
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rhiaro_ last week, right after the call
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elf-pavlik +1
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cwebber2 +1
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tsyesika +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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rhiaro_ +1
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aaronpk tantek: no edits on the wiki history, but amy says she edited the minutes from last week
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aaronpk ... no objectiions, lots of +1s,
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aaronpk RESOLVED minutes approved
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aaronpk TOPIC: face to face meeting
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01
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wilkie present+ wilkie
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aaronpk tantek: 9 people registered right now, i'd prefer if we could get everyone in the group especially everyone on the telcon to add their names
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aaronpk ... either confirm, add regrets, or if you think you might be able to attend, add yourself still and add a caveat note
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aaronpk ... that lets the organizer know that's a possibility, but if you might be able to attend please add anote
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aaronpk ... if you're for sure not able to attend, add yourself to remote if possible, or add yourself to regrets
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aaronpk TOPIC: next week telcon
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aaronpk tantek: cancelling next week's telcon since it's during TPAC
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aaronpk ... the next telcon will be Nov 3rd
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aaronpk ... chair will be Arnaud
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aaronpk Arnaud: i can do that
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aaronpk tantek: great okay
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kevinmarks present+ kevinmarks
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aaronpk TOPIC: WebEx vs Mumble
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aaronpk tantek: sandro has an update
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aaronpk sandro: we ended things last week was several people pointed out we have a mandate to make our telcon system inclusive, which requires plain telephone dialin
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aaronpk ... so mumble is off the table, but if people want something other than webex, suggest alternatives
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cwebber2 sandro: does that include dial-in internationally? :)
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aaronpk ... but it has to have at least the same functionlity, at least dial-in
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tsyesika cwebber2++
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aaronpk ... we can close this for now, but someone can prototype with others in the group if they want
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aaronpk tantek: for now, this issue is closed since Mumble doesn't have POTS support
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cwebber2 because international ability to dial in also seems a broadly accessible issue to me
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aaronpk ... if there is a counterproposal then we're open to hearing that
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tantek q?
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aaronpk TOPIC: Agenda format
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sandro cwebber2, *free* dialin isn't a requreiment, but it sure would be nice.
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aaronpk tantek: we had a clustered format of the agenda by topic
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86060&oldid=86058
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Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86062&oldid=86060
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Loqi Tsyesika made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86065&oldid=86059
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Loqi Scapadis made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86066&oldid=86065
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aaronpk .. there wa sa proposal to switch it to a flat FIFO agenda so that when items are added we get to everything rather than potentially getting stuck on the first cluster
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hhalpin However, I agree with cwebber2 that we should have free dial-in and dial-in that is compatible with open-source/free software.
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aaronpk .. .there was an objection from evan, but then they talked, and now evan is not objecting
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tsyesika sandro: it's not so much that there is a cost to international dialing it's just that the cost is prohibitive
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hhalpin This is simply a failure on W3C's part at this point, hopefully one we can address. I'll bring it up at our next meeting.
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aaronpk ... the chairs have talked abd we've agreed to switch to a flat FIFO format
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hhalpin Not having free calling, particularly given the widespread use of VoIP, is ultimately IMHO discriminatory
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aaronpk ... if there are any objections let us know, we'll be happty to listen to questions/issues
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tsyesika hhalpin: thanks
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hhalpin biasing meetings towards those with the income to dial-in. If someone is not technical enough to figure out VoIP, it begs the question of what htey are doing in a technical standardization committee.
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aaronpk Arnaud: it does mean if you want to add somethign to the agenda, you must always add your things to the bottom of the list
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aaronpk tantek: if you have a speicifc action item that you want people to look at or are stuck on, you can add it to the agenda explicitly
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hhalpin Thus, I fully support moving the meeting to Mumble if possible, and am happy to revisit this issue now that Ann (who previously had issues with this) is not in the WG.
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hhalpin Many open-source projects use Mumble for telecons and it works well for them.
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aaronpk tantek: looks like there's a side conversation continuing
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aaronpk ... i'm going to point out there's a free option for dialing in which I am using
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aaronpk ... which is the google hangouts application
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aaronpk ... it does allow free POTS phone calls to US phone numbers no matter where you are in the world
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cwebber2 tantek: I know tsyesika and rhiaro have been using that and it has been difficult for them
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aaronpk ... i've used this in manyu locations, so i don't actualy think there is a point about cost for the phone call
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aaronpk ... there is a free solution to making phone calls
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aaronpk ... and it's a lot easier than setting up a VOIP solution
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aaronpk TOPIC: Improvements in compatibility of IANA link relations registry with JSON-LD
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aaronpk tantek: while it's an interesting issue to discuss, i don't think it's something relevant or blocking AS2
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aaronpk ... elf is this somethign that really needs to be discussed?
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: i wanted to share a quick update
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aaronpk ... AS vocab defines properties like previous last next, thanks to this progress, you'll be able to reuse these more easily
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aaronpk ... we can reuse these from well defined link relations instead of redefining them
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aaronpk tantek: if there are specific issues on AS use of vocab they should be filed as issues on github against each vocab item
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aaronpk ... encouraging reuse tends to be good practice, but youcan capture this with specific issues and exampels on the spec
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tantek q?
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aaronpk TOPIC AS2 Hackathon
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aaronpk tantek: Now that we have the beginnings of a test suite, it would be great to get some Free and Open Source Software library implementations in major Web programming languages (Ruby, PHP, Python, JavaScript, Java, Go, Objective C). A weekend hackathon ahead of our next F2F would be great. Doodle poll here: http://doodle.com/poll/sht6vdmr73v2arfd
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cwebber2 wow nice job
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cwebber2 aaronpk: you're so on top of things!
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wilkie I wanted to do that anyway!!
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aaronpk tantek: i believe the only action being requested here interest you, answer the doodle poll
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aaronpk ... i will also point out there' sbeen an indiewebcamp hack day scheduled for the day after the F2F on Dec 3rd
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aaronpk ... also hosted at Mozilla, so if you want to extend your stay to hack on AS2 or other socialweb technology for your personal website, you're welcome to join the indiewebcamp hack day
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ben_thatmustbeme There is an IWC at MIT on Nov 7/8th as well
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tantek q?
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ben_thatmustbeme q+
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rhiaro_ https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF
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aaronpk tantek: participation is free, just show up. not just a WG event, it's open to anyone who wants to hack on their personal sites
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Loqi Wilkie made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86067&oldid=86066
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86068&oldid=86067
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aaronpk ... i believ the intent of the doodle poll is to make it open to anyone, not jsut WG members
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tantek q?
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tantek ack ben_thatmustbeme
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: i wanted to mention there's an indiewebcamp at MIT on Nov 7/8, linked in the chat
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tantek q?
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aaronpk tantek: looks like we have a pretty busy couple months coming up, good news
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aaronpk TOPIC: Social API
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aaronpk update and next steps
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rhiaro_ http://rhiaro.github.io/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/socialapi
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aaronpk rhiaro: as promised, i put togheter a document for a skeleton of what the social api could look like
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aaronpk ... kind of the shape of the socail api. the pieces of how I see the API such that tey're interoperable but not dependent on each other
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aaronpk ... your'e able to implement subsections but not necessarily all of them
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aaronpk ... allows apps to work together rather than a single app the does everything
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aaronpk ... it's obviousluy not impelmentable in its current form, and some sections have conflicting options, so i'm hoping the group can help work through this to resolve
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aaronpk ... my plan is to work through and implement each part to refine it
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aaronpk ... based on what i'm building and the other specs we've considered
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wilkie great work
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aaronpk ... (activitypump, indieweb ones, and solid)
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cwebber2 rhiaro++
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aaronpk ... i might end up makign specific proposals based on what i'm building
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cwebber2 what wilkie said
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aaronpk ... i'm open to changing the structure , it's possible i've mised some stuff others think its important
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aaronpk ... so i'd love for that to be fixed
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wilkie this gives a great roadmap for implementations
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aaronpk ... the first section is reading, social data exposed on the web ,doesn't matter how it got there
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aaronpk ... you find some, here's what to expect and how to get it
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wilkie that are still flexible about Accept
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aaronpk ... the creating/updating/deleting shoudl be self explanatory
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aaronpk ... discovery is the idea that you cn find content from a starting point, probably a user profile
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aaronpk ... specifically that someone can publish multiple feeds of content, sorted to whatever criteria you'd like, and an a[plication like a reader needs a way to find all the content the user has published
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aaronpk ... subscribing, specifically when your client is asking to be notified of updates, either to a single piece of content or a feed
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aaronpk ... this is similar to mentions, which is when you're pushed a notification but didnt' necessraily ask for it
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aaronpk ... subscribing and mentions are kind of mixed together in ActiivtyPump but are separate in indieweb protocols
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aaronpk ... i found it useful to think of kthem separately
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aaronpk ... the final section is profiles, auth is out of scope, identity is complicated and has a lot of baggage, but we basically need some document to describe the author of a document
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aaronpk ... peopel can have multiple profiles, we don't need to constrain what goes into the profiles (orgs or bots are fine)
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ShaneHudson Apologies I can't be on the call today, but just wanted to mention I'm up for the AS hackathon it is a good idea. Have put dates I can do on the doodle.
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aaronpk ... my instinct is to focus on this from the perspective of content delivery (social content)
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aaronpk ... specifically with relationships between profiles, it's easy to get bogged down by categorizing friends
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aaronpk .. but what really matters is what content is going to flow from user to users
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aaronpk ... iv'e tried to capture this from a practical point of view without getting too concerned about identity
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elf-pavlik q+ to ask about groups
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cwebber2 q+
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cwebber2 aaronpk++
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk++
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aaronpk tantek: i have adocument level question rather than a content question
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aaronpk ... what would it take to turn this into an editors draft
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aaronpk rhiaro: i was going to end the doc with a question, if this is an acceptable way forwrads, i could add this to the w3c github and respec it and call it an editor's draft and go from there
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aaronpk ... it just has some gaps and things that need to be filled but is a starting point
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tantek q?
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sandro gaps are business-as-usual for editors drafts. :-)
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aaronpk tantek: certainly editor's drafts are expected fto have issues and gaps
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tantek ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to ask about groups
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: really amazing work amy. my question goes to profile and relationships
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hhalpin q?
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aaronpk ... i remember a few years ago, were missing groups
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hhalpin q+
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aaronpk ... do you see a place for groups in the social api?
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aaronpk ... and the access control aspects
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Arnaud anyone pushing back would have the burden of coming up with a counter proposal :)
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wilkie I agree, groups are important
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aaronpk rhiaro: i completely forgot about that. off the top of my head, since you ca have collections of contents you could have collections of profiles which you could use for access control
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aaronpk ... definitely something to think about
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tantek q?
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wilkie this is a FANTASTIC start though
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tantek ack cwebber2
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aaronpk cwebber2: great work. i think this doucment will be awesome as is, you mentioned something offline, interest in doing this for activitypump
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86069&oldid=86062
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aaronpk ... i wonder if other implementers will be interested as well
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aaronpk ... where you mentioned restructuring the activtypump document in this form
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aaronpk ... are others interested in this?
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aaronpk rhiaro: yeah the other thing i'm doing, i came up with this structure and I am rewriting the activitypump API in this structure, leaving the content but just changing the structure
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aaronpk ... iw ill be doing the same for solid
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aaronpk .. and then the different indieweb specs are arleady in these pieces so they just need to line up in this order
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aaronpk ... there are probably some parts that look the same when you untangle them, and then they can be put in the social API
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cwebber2 great rhiaro, awesome work!
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aaronpk ... i'm going to do it anyway but if anyone wants to help that's good too
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tantek q?
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cwebber2 q-
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro++
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tantek ack cwebber2
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kevinmarks rhiaro++
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tantek ack cwebber
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tantek ack hhalpin
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aaronpk hhalpin: it's a good beginning, i had two scoping questions
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aaronpk ... i think we'll need some sort of minimal profile social graph annotation
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aaronpk ... but i don't want this document to try to define that
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aaronpk ... the most variance is in the subscription protocols
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aaronpk ... it seems like the other thing is missing is there are two different design patterns in discovery
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aaronpk ... one is looking at link headers, whcih some developers don't know about
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aaronpk ... many people use acitivtypump without looking at link headers
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wilkie that's so true and so baffling
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aaronpk ... most social networks don't use link headers
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aaronpk ... maybe we should defined some default URL endpoints in the discovery
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aaronpk ... look at some of the work done around webfinger and host-meta
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cwebber2 and also note
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aaronpk ... i'm happy to share those over email
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kevinmarks webfinger is mostly dead isn't it?
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melvster webfinger--
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cwebber2 that we have a lot freedom in ActivityPump to adjust the way discovery is done
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aaronpk rhiaro: i agree about not defining social relationship at the api level
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hhalpin I'm going to note that vocabularies are a source of endless bike-shedding, let's not try to define in an API
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cwebber2 the stuff in there right now was rushed in for the paris F2F
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tantek q?
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aaronpk tantek: i'm going to interject based on harry's comment
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hhalpin Discovery is currently only done with Link Headers, but some folks don't use those or know about those.
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aaronpk ... regarding the suggestion to look at webfinger/host-meta, is anyone here actually implementing those in their social web technologies or solutions?
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aaronpk ... i'm askign implementers that are on the call
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wilkie negotiating has always been weird where you look for link headers, look for <link>, look for html hints somewhere else... link headers are priority though
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kevinmarks gogole dropped webfinger support https://client.webfinger.net/lookup?resource=kevinmarks%40gmail.com
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tsyesika yes, mediagoblin uses it
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cwebber2 q+
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aaronpk hhalpin: most of the large implementers who are not on the call tend to use webfinger
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aaronpk ... most platforms don't use link headers, thye just use URL patterns that are documented
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tsyesika I have no mic, but mediagoblin dos
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tsyesika *does
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hhalpin It might be useful to look at URL patterns default and that most major sites (for example, anyone that supports OpenID) uses WebFinger.
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aaronpk tantek: the reason i'm bringin this up is we've had no active participiation from implementers using these techniques, so i'm not in favor of trying to guess their needs and desires
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ben_thatmustbeme we had agreed on follow your nose for endpoints a F2F Cambridge
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hhalpin So we should at least look at this.
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aaronpk ... iwould prefer fewer things that are based on actual participants instead
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aaronpk ... there are communities here, indieweb and solid, who are actively using link headers and relations and actively not using webfingers and host-meta
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme++
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cwebber2 o/
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elf-pavlik follow your nose by including links in payload https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Oct/0057.html
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aaronpk ... the current deployment and active work is to not use webfinger
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tantek q?
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tantek ack cwebber
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hhalpin Again, the real focus for most people are using URL patterns
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aaronpk cwebber2: both mediagoblin and pump.io currently use webfinger
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aaronpk ... and diaspora
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hhalpin Anyways, people should look at it: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7033
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aaronpk ... i'm not saying i think it's the best option, but there is active federation using it
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wilkie yep, anything that stemmed from ostatus will be using it
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wilkie my implementations also do
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kevinmarks yahoo has also dropped webfinger
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aaronpk tantek: as an implementer, what's your opinion, si that worth mentioning in the social API?
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hhalpin https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6415 - Host-meta
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kevinmarks so how are you looking up things?
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ben_thatmustbeme q+
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cwebber2 q+
#
kevinmarks q+
#
aaronpk ... i'm seeing side comments in IRC, and i would request those queue up to make youre points
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aaronpk ... is webfinger a backcompat thing?
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aaronpk cwebber2: i don't have the biggest strongest opinion on this, but it's the way things are going
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aaronpk ... i know evan has expressed previous inteterest in webfinger
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tantek q?
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aaronpk ... but the activitypump we submitted for the f2f had a rough thing where we pulled jsonld out of the page, but i dont tihnk that's the best way forward
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aaronpk ... it will at least need to be supported for backcompat, but i can't speak for evan
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tantek q?
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tantek ack ben_thatmustbeme
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tsyesika cwebber++
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cwebber2 q-
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aaronpk tantek: thanks i appreciate that
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hhalpin We saw in the wild *mild* uptake of WebFinger and Host-meta, I agree it may not be the best way forward, but *only* Link Headers ignores the facts that many developers do not know what Link headers are and that design pattern is not employed by major social networks.
#
melvster FYI: webfinger JSON is not compatible with the JSON proposed in this group
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cwebber2 that's true
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cwebber2 we did say that
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: we did talk about this at f2f in cambridge and we agreed and pretty sure we had a resolution we would prefer a follow-your-nose method than a random URL
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hhalpin q+
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aaronpk tantek: that's true
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aaronpk ... that was this past march
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cwebber2 and that's why the paris f2f one had an alternate method
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cwebber2 that was FYN'ish
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cwebber2 though not a permanent one
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aaronpk ... we did resolve the group would use follow-your-nose method, to avoid well-known path methods
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aaronpk ... so i suppose that leaves us with, if there is new information since the meeting we can reopen the issue
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cwebber2 tantek: anwyay, I think tsyesika and I are flexible on this, I think we'd be happy to work with the group
#
sandro q?
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cwebber2 tantek: we might want in activitypump to provide a backwards compatible note
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tantek q?
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tantek ack kevinmarks
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aaronpk kevinmarks: webfinger has been largely abandoned as far as i can tell
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aaronpk ... the model that everything starts from eamil address was flaky to begin with
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aaronpk ... google and yahoo both dropped it already
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melvster kevinmarks++
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aaronpk tantek: do you have a citation for that?
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cwebber2 q+
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aaronpk kevinmarks: i used the webfinger.net client to look up my gmail and yahoo addresses and neither of them worked
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cwebber2 q-
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aaronpk tantek: so there's no official announcement, but based on the tests you're seeing the support gone
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wilkie I'm not sure why google or yahoo would want to use webfinger haha
#
tantek q?
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tantek ack hhalpin
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aaronpk hhalpin: i'm not saying that webfinger or host-meta is the best approach, but I do think they were added to the OpenID connect spec
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kevinmarks they're well-known urls
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aaronpk .. that being said, tho we should encourage HTTP link headers, lots of implementers don't know what link headers are
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aaronpk ... some of the main questions implementers had was where shoudl i put my endpoints, and how do i find others' endpoints
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kevinmarks we should support <a> as well as <link>
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elf-pavlik q+ to mention including links in body of response
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aaronpk ... typically there is some documentation like twitter which shows the endpoints
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aaronpk ... it may be useful to say if you're adding this to yoursite, here are some default patterns you can follow
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cwebber2 q+
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aaronpk ... that follows more clearly what implementers are used to
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kevinmarks wordpress has link headers
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kevinmarks so ~25% of the web
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aaronpk tantek: that's an interesting assertion, but i'm not sure without some evidence of where those endpoints are we can come to a conclusion
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hhalpin So, does Twitter, Facebook, or anyone else use Link Headers?
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hhalpin I think Evan began this research a while back.
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tantek q?
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hhalpin So we already have lots of data.
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kevinmarks silo.pub has instructions for adding link headers to other silos
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aaronpk tantek: counterpoint i'll provide is there are many more sites and URLs that have link headers and link rel discovery of rss/atom feeds
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aaronpk ... iw ould assert the number of sites that support that greatly outnumber all proprietary social netweork APIs combined
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hhalpin I think Link Headers are not a bad way to go and should be specified, but having some "optional" advised default end-points will help deployment.
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aaronpk ... so there are many publishesr and consumers that use feed discovery from home pages
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tantek q?
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tantek ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to mention including links in body of response
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aaronpk ... i'm presenting that to counter that developres don't know what to do with link relations
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hhalpin I think RSS/Atom feeds are slowly on their way out, sadly :(
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elf-pavlik http://ruben.verborgh.org/blog/2015/10/06/turtles-all-the-way-down/
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wilkie just do what everybody else does. do link headers, and fall back to link tags, etc.
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kevinmarks opensocial/as1 defined api paths relative to an endpoint
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tantek they (RSS, Atom) still greatly outnumber proprietary APIs
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hhalpin I'm just noticing that the main way discovery is usually done is by going for a URL
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tantek hhalpin, not for feeds
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: it seems like activitystreams and others put links in the body of responses
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tantek that's still done by follow-your-nose via link relations
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hhalpin So losing that pattern and saying "look at link headers" seems rather odd if we want deployment.
#
aaronpk ... html links in the indieweb community also put links in the body
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aaronpk ... it's not just link headers, we can use the payload in the body, so there are other options
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tantek q?
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tantek ack cwebber
#
hhalpin For internationalization and adoption, I agree Link headers are a good thing, but I think 99% of people will be expecting URL endpoints that are defined.
#
aaronpk sandro: can we do quick point of order of where we are on the agenda?
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cwebber2 I'm happy to dequeue
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rhiaro_ q+ to make proposal about API
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cwebber2 q-
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tantek q?
#
tantek ack rhiaro
#
Zakim rhiaro_, you wanted to make proposal about API
#
rhiaro_ PROPOSAL: accept this basic structure of a Social API document and continue development on w3c-social github. Have an implementable draft ready by the f2f.
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aaronpk rhiaro: i wanted to end this with a proposal
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cwebber2 I'll say it on IRC instead
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elf-pavlik +1
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aaronpk tantek: sounds like you're proposing it as an editor's draft
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aaronpk rhiaro: if that's what it sounds like sure, i'm not sure what the full process is
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aaronpk tantek: i'm going to reword your proosal slightly
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kevinmarks hhalpin: Iink headers just point to the defined api endpoints. I don't see how link headers are bad
#
tantek PROPOSAL: accept this basic structure of a Social API document as an editor's draft for the WG and continue development on w3c-social github.
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elf-pavlik +1
#
cwebber2 hhalpin: I agree with you on the general "what developers can easily pick up and go with with the tooling they have", but I think that looking at a spec and hearing "oh I can get it from here"... most devs have the tools in a django/rails/node blah blah type environment to where webfinger and link relations and etc are about equal complexity
#
sandro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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tantek +1
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cwebber2 +1
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rhiaro_ +1
#
aaronpk tantek: the progress of the draft is up to you, which is why i dropped "implementable"
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aaronpk +1
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hhalpin +1
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cwebber2 it also seems like an easy one for the group to not disagree too much over :)
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aaronpk tantek: i see a bunch of +1s
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kevinmarks +1
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wilkie +1
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cwebber2 so I'm happy to say "webfinger is backwards compatibility"
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cwebber2 and move on
#
aaronpk sandro: might be nice to aim for getting a first public WD by the f2f
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tantek RESOLVED: accept this basic structure of a Social API document as an editor's draft for the WG and continue development on w3c-social github.
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aaronpk tantek: i'm not seeing any objections at al, so i'll declare it as resolved
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aaronpk rhiaro_++
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elf-pavlik rhiaro++
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cwebber2 rhiaro++
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sandro rhiaro++
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aaronpk rhiaro: i don't know what state it has to be in for it to be a working draft but as long as someone can clear that up for me that's okay
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aaronpk sandro: there's some mechanical stuff harry and i can help with
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hhalpin Note that FPWD and Editor's drafts don't need WG consensus
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aaronpk ... from a consensus point of view it's either agreed on or noted that it's not agreed on
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aaronpk rhiaro: okay that sounds doable
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hhalpin Otherwise, there would likely never be a published FPWD :)
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tantek q?
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aaronpk tantek: in general working draft does not require all the contents to have consensus, that's how we broaden the discussion
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aaronpk TOPIC: TPAC
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hhalpin There was a request from Annotations for Social members at TPAC to attend as well
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aaronpk tantek: "Those attending TPAC will hold a Social Web breakout session on the plenary day. Please suggest agenda topics."
#
hhalpin q+
#
aaronpk rhiaro: on wednesday of next week during tpac, there's breakout sessions, and tantek Arnaud and me will be there, there will be a social web session 1 hr
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aaronpk ... if anyone wants to bring something up for the session add it to the wiki pag
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tantek ack hhalpin
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aaronpk hhalpin: there was also a request, the annotations WG is meeting and they might have some dependencies on this group
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aaronpk .. .they invited this group to their meeting
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aaronpk TOPIC AS 2 modularity
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aaronpk tantek: last week there was a straw poll of whether we should consider AS to be a requirement
#
aaronpk ... there was some active resistance and opposition
#
aaronpk .. the chairs discussed what is a good way forward
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aaronpk ... i believe sandro has a good summary to present
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aaronpk sandro: HTML clearly uses and carries and works with Javascript and CSS, but it does not have any hard dependency on them
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cwebber2 q+
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aaronpk ... it's possible to use different stylesheets, but everyone in the industry knows everyone uses javascript/css
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tantek q+
#
aaronpk ... i was hoping we could in theory have the API be separate from the social media syntax
#
aaronpk .. .that could be a good design pattern, even if we all know that what we do most of the time is use AS2
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elf-pavlik q+ re AS2.0 trying to address API concerns
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aaronpk ... chris said it seems like a failure if we don't tie the two together. i'm saying it doesn't have to be a failure, see HTML
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tantek ack cwebber
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cwebber2 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/
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aaronpk cwebber2: HTML does not link to CSS, but CSS does link to HTML everywhere
#
aaronpk ... so it's true that HTML is a foundation on which CSS sits, but CSS is dependent on HTML
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csarven SVG?
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aaronpk ... so i'm not totally sure i buy this analogy
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tantek q?
#
aaronpk tantek: i'll quickly give a counterpoint. in CSS2 it was explicitly made more modular than CSS1, CSS2 made it clear that it works on any document language, not just HTML
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hhalpin q+
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aaronpk ... acknowledged that tying CSS1 to HTML was a mistake
#
aaronpk ... we can certainly learn from that
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aaronpk ... csarven mentioned SVG. SVG was able to reuse aspects of CSS without CSS having to change
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aaronpk ... that was a good design mechanism
#
aaronpk .. .the other explicit point i wanted to add to sandro's analogy
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aaronpk ... in scripting, there were multiple alternatives you could use in HTML. all those alternatives were devleoped outside w3c
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cwebber2 tantek: ok, point taken re: css 2
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aaronpk ... our modularity is not just restricted to w3c's work, but can and should extend to allowing development outside our work
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aaronpk ... the other example of styling languages. there were multiple alternatives pursued inside w3c
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aaronpk .. when we got to XML, it could be styled with CSS or XMLFO
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hhalpin Although XSL-FO seems not to have worked out...
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aaronpk ... my experience is having those two ended up benefiting both
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hhalpin That being said, I've used XSL-FO for styling XML produced by wikis into PDFs for a textbook, it's quite fun in a very XML-centric way.
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aaronpk ... eventually yes we have a dominant styling and scripting language, but that took years to happen, and the existence of alternatives benefitted both
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tantek q?
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aaronpk ... the modular approach will benefit all our technologies the most
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tantek ack tant
#
tantek ack tantek
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aaronpk ... so to those who were -1 to requiring AS2 would want to present an alternative
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ben_thatmustbeme another reason to keep Social API and Federation API seperate
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aaronpk ...clearly there are folks who are unhappy with AS2
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aaronpk ... one way to continue AS2 is for those who were -1 to give a counter proposal
#
tantek q?
#
aaronpk ... if you have a way to define what you would like constructively instead then we can design the protocols so they are moduled
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tantek ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss AS2.0 trying to address API concerns
#
Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86070&oldid=85989
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: i already mentioned that AS is trying to address API concerns, paging and media types, i plan to create an issue listing all the API concerns that AS has to address
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aaronpk ... so we can focus ont he data
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik++
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aaronpk tantek: that sounds great
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tantek q?
#
tantek ack hhalpin
#
aaronpk hhalpin: i think the concern is if we don't have a SHOULD for some json format, multiple sides will use the aPI and won't interoperate
#
kevinmarks why does harry think microformats are anti-json?
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aaronpk ... we'l end up with lack of interoperability. rather than consider this a format war, we should try to accept one JSON based format
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: not that it's anti-json but that it won't be the same json maybe?
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cwebber2 clearly aaronpk is working on a json format and that's great
#
hhalpin It's not, that's why I'm confused re resistance to JSON formats since mf2
#
aaronpk tantek: i'm going to reiterate what sandro said. HTML did not have a SHOULD MUST or MAY for javascript or CSS, and CSS says "if you're using HTML here's what to do"
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aaronpk ... not only should we not say MUST, we should not say SHOULD either
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kevinmarks there isn't resistance to JSON
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ben_thatmustbeme hhalpin: i am going to try to come up with a standard JSON format that AS2 and MF2's JSON can both translate to
#
hhalpin Modularity that destroys inteoperability is a bad idea.
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aaronpk hhalpin: modularity that destroys interoperability is bad and i'll go on record saying that
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ben_thatmustbeme hhalpin: which btw, was inspired by your talk
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aaronpk tantek: the example given counters that, so unless we have actual harm demnonstrated we have one positive example and no negative examples
#
tantek action-35
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trackbot action-35 -- Tantek Çelik to Come up with a simple proposal for implicit typing based on property names -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
#
trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/35
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hhalpin Indeed the world shows that Javascript+HTML5 is a dominant paradigm
#
aaronpk TOPIC: actions and issues
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: you probably want to work with aaronpk on that
#
hhalpin Javascript+CSS+HTML5
#
hhalpin If there's a world where CSS is used on something other than HTML, I'd like to know
#
wilkie tbf, it would technically be possible to make a social api implementation that produces no data if all possible outputs are SHOULD haha
#
hhalpin Otherwise, it's pretty clear the example re modularity doesn't make sense
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cwebber2 wilkie: haha
#
rhiaro_ wilkie: haha, social ghosts
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: aaronpk is already exploring that, you can probably maximize efforts by working together
#
wilkie cwebber2: I like the art/philosophy of that kind of system.
#
aaronpk Arnaud: normaly this is the way for someone to signal you want this to be looked at by the WG
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kevinmarks JSON-LD islands in <script> are the weird thing here
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cwebber2 wilkie: no data is good data
#
tantek PROPOSE close action 35 as completed with the Post Type Discovery Editor's Draft
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elf-pavlik actions don't need formal resolutions
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cwebber2 no data complies with all specs
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hhalpin Precisely wilkie. If there is folks that disagree with JSON, then I suspect their systems will simply not be made interoperable with.
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wilkie cwebber2: you're not wrong if you don't try
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cwebber2 :)
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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aaronpk RESOLVED close action 35
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cwebber2 thanks for chairing tantek !
#
kevinmarks harry, you're strawmanning
#
elf-pavlik thanks all!
#
wilkie thanks all
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hhalpin No, I'm not straw-manning.
#
aaronpk trackbot: end meeting
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
#
Zakim As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber,
#
cwebber2 and thanks for excellent scribing aaronpk
#
Zakim ... tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika, wseltzer, akuckartz
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aaronpk hhalpin: http://www.sitepoint.com/svg-styling-with-css/
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hhalpin I think people should accept JSON and MAY accept other things
#
trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
#
kevinmarks you are inventing an objection to JSON
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: if there's no objection, then a-ok :)
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cwebber2 let's move forward!
#
hhalpin OK, then what is the objection then to agreeing on JSON?
#
aaronpk the objection isn't to agreeing on JSON, it's to AS2 specifically
#
hhalpin If the objection is 'AS2.0 is a mess' then let's fix AS2.0
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wilkie hhalpin: yeah, I agree. though I also tend to think, on that front, an implementation that doesn't have *both* AS2 and microformats to be incomplete (at the current moment)
#
csarven rhiaro++
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kevinmarks there is an objection to JSON-LD and AS2
#
hhalpin I agree it's too complicated.
#
aaronpk and JSONLD yeah
#
cwebber2 kevinmarks: btw my AS2 implemenetation doesn't require jsonld
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cwebber2 for almost all actions
#
hhalpin I also agree JSON-LD is mostly unncessary and will be ignored by non-RDF programmers
#
cwebber2 kevinmarks: but you can dive into it if you want
#
elf-pavlik bit outdated but mentions both Microformats JSON and Microformats JSON-LD https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax
#
hhalpin However, can we get mf2's algorithms to convert a mf2-marked up HTML into something that looks like AS2?
#
wilkie yeah, we have a very great opportunity to reform whatever doesn't work for AS2 right now. jasnell has asked many times for specifics on that point.
#
hhalpin It seems like this should be possible.
#
kevinmarks we can get mf2 into consistent JSON
#
cwebber2 part of the problem is that linked data / solid side is saying "More json-ld / RDF!"
#
aaronpk why is AS2 the thing we are trying to make mf2 map to?
#
cwebber2 and microformats is saying
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kevinmarks becasue we have defined adn tested parsing across many languages
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cwebber2 "no json-ld / RDF!"
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wilkie you shouldn't need JSON-LD if you don't care about extensibility
#
cwebber2 but AS2 is *already* a compromise
#
cwebber2 it's not json-ld until you want it to be
#
hhalpin I am just quite confused about what the alternative really is.
#
tantek aaronpk++ for minuting
#
kevinmarks mapping from that JSON inot your preferred JSON is totally doable, whatever that preferred json is
#
wilkie although the work to handle some subset of AS2 without a JSON-LD processor might be more work than using one
#
hhalpin If the alternative is, we'd like to ship whatever RDF data or whatever microformat we want around using the Social API, that's fine.
#
csarven hhalpin Entirely hypothetical exercise until mf2 adopts vocabulary items close to AS2. See mf /process (which is based on existing practices on the Web). The documentation on that needs a lot of work.
#
hhalpin However, systems should at least consume/produce some sort of JSON format (hopefully a revised AS2.0) otherwise I have no idea how interop will happen.
#
csarven So.. sure you can get a small subset map to AS2.. but that's about it.
#
hhalpin If the specs can't specify interop, then I don't see the point of the specs
#
hhalpin and the microformat and RDF communities will continue to be decentralized silos
#
cwebber2 csarven: if we can get a small part to map, that still might be enough for progres.
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csarven Anything is mappable if you do enough imperative programming.
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cwebber2 progress
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hhalpin with limited take up amongst the larger developer community
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cwebber2 microformats' community mostly only works within a smaller set only
#
elf-pavlik rhiaro, i couldn't find your article about mismatch in dicsussion about extensible in mf and rdf
#
cwebber2 so that's probably okay.
#
wilkie if you want A. interop and B. your specific format, then you better be ready to make a mapping. to what... though... do you map to??
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shepazu present+ shepazu
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csarven cwebber2 Sure. Not my TODO. You can call it victory with one single property mapping.
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aaronpk missed it shepazu lol
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hhalpin Indeed, it seems like it should map to JSON.
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kevinmarks I map to mf2
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rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/08/extensibility
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aaronpk shepazu: call just ended
#
shepazu lol
#
elf-pavlik rhiaro_, thanks!
#
wilkie you can't just map to mf2 unless the client understands mf2 as part of its interop plan
#
cwebber2 kevinmarks: so are you saying "unless it's mf2, I'm not interested?"
#
elf-pavlik I hope everyone had chance to read http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/08/extensibility
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kevinmarks no
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cwebber2 kevinmarks: then what are you saying?
#
hhalpin Now, if we could get mf2 to basically produce something that is minimally AS2 compatible for status updates, we'd have interop
#
wilkie it's probably possible that your client understands mf2 and a collection of other things, but maybe not all things
#
hhalpin The main issue it seems is that AS2 is too complex and has too many JSON-LD knobs
#
aaronpk hhalpin: since nothing actually uses AS2 yet why is this the canonical thing we're mapping to?
#
hhalpin I believe those should be fixed
#
wilkie and in that case, the server should look at the Accept and map to what *it* understands how to map to
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cwebber2 so
#
elf-pavlik this also makes an interesting read http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
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csarven hhalpin See ISSUE-44
#
wilkie which is why the Social API doesn't specify one particular thing, but rather SHOULD
#
kevinmarks I map arbitrary Atom to mf2 here http://www.unmung.com/
#
cwebber2 part of the goal with my python library:
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hhalpin I agree there is little uptake of AS2.0
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cwebber2 and Maybe a demo of this in december will help
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elf-pavlik <span class="p-schema-publication h-schema-BroadcastEvent">
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hhalpin That being said, there's also little uptake of mf2 or RDF
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cwebber2 prove that you can do a ton without json-ld in a library, but then, as soon as you want it
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hhalpin What we have is massive uptake of JSON, so agreeing on JSON as an interop format makes snese.
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cwebber2 you can do a ton of linked data stuff
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wilkie hhalpin: the people who do mf2 and RDF are going to disagree with you :)
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aaronpk i didn't have a chance to say this during the call, but
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hhalpin I know, but its a rather obvious point that I think both mf2 and RDF proponents are aware of.
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wilkie I think servers should handle Accept of html and json. so. mf2 and AS2.
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hhalpin I.e. look at Go, Ruby, any development environment really
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kevinmarks I map instagram to mf2 here http://www.pestagram.com/
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elf-pavlik kevinmarks, how can you tell where role-member comes from? http://prefix.cc/role
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aaronpk it's not that I have such a problem with JSON, it's that I have an issue of how AS2 seems to want to use it
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hhalpin Then let's fix AS2
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hhalpin Its obviously too complex
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rhiaro_ For anyone interested, everything I said about the social api doc today is here: https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/gh-pages/notes.md
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elf-pavlik what if different publishers use role- prefix intending different vocab?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: and if AS2 doesn't require any json-ld stuff?
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aaronpk rhiaro_: AAAGHH
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cwebber2 is that a problem?
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shepazu don't microformats and JSON(-LD) live in different parts of the representation space? unless I am sorely mistaken, microformats lives in the DOM representation, while JSON is for the interchange, so they shouldn't even overlap when they are being consumed… you can map values from one to the other, but that's orthogonal, right?
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aaronpk you mean i typed al that for nothing? lol
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rhiaro_ heh sorry aaronpk
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hhalpin Why not strip down AS2 to a more sparse syntax and keep all JSON-LD stuff totally optional?
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csarven aaronpk If you have an issue with AS2 core wanting to use JSON, what would you prefer?
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hhalpin Putting alot of what is currently in "Core" in the "Vocabulary" spec
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cwebber2 which is where AS2 almost is at thispoint...
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aaronpk csarven: no that is not what i said at all
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wilkie rhiaro_: great work, again
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csarven aaronpk Please paraphrase.
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kevinmarks there is a consistent toolset for mapping mf2 to JSON across multiple languages. People use those libs then work in JSON
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elf-pavlik how do you deal with two publishers using coliding prefix in mf2 extension?
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csarven AS2 with Core and Vocabulary makes no sense IMO.
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elf-pavlik eg. role-chari
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aaronpk shepazu: forget everyrthing you know about mf1. mf2 turns HTML pages into this: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/10/18/1/
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hhalpin Anyways, we need to get mf2 to produce something like AS2
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hhalpin and if AS2 has to simplify, then that's probably good for AS2
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aaronpk hhalpin: it does: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/10/18/1/
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shepazu aaronpk, ohhhh
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hhalpin Excellent!
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, how does one prevent colisions between indepedently defined properties and types?
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wilkie it'll be good to have both mf2 and AS2 (2 options is better than 1, honestly. honestly it is) and then have them map to each other.
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kevinmarks we have discussions about it, elf-pavlik
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wilkie that'd be such a great accomplishment
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elf-pavlik i can star using p3k-* prefix and make bunch of silly definitions
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hhalpin I would agree wilkie.
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wilkie to federate two syntaxes
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aaronpk shepazu: yeah that's the whole mf2 push
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hhalpin What aaronpk produced looks pretty close
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wilkie it totally doable. it's not like they are that much different haha.
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hhalpin So I imagine if we have to simplify AS2.0 to match that, that would be a great route forward
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kevinmarks here's the pthon code doing the same thing: http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fnotes%2F2015%2F10%2F18%2F1%2F&html=&pretty=on
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aaronpk shepazu: there's a good intro here http://microformats.org/2014/03/05/getting-started-with-microformats2
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hhalpin it may require some minor tweaks to mf2 and some tweaks to AS2.0, but then we'd get real interop
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wilkie people are acting like html and json are radically differen and involve some kind of moral choice. do both.
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hhalpin with is worth pain
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cwebber2 <mf2-community> There's too much json-ld in AS 2.0!
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wilkie hhalpin++
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cwebber2 <as2> Okay I made json-ld totally optional
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cwebber2 <ld-community> There's not enough json-ld/rdf in AS 2.0!
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hhalpin Again, I'd prioritize communities by their user sizes
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aaronpk good luck tantek
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hhalpin The main issue is that JSON AS2 community *is* non-existent
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csarven Which will be indistinguishable from RDFa
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cwebber2 <cwebber2> please stop the 15 year linked data / microformats war
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wilkie there is enough structure in AS2 to not require a JSON-LD processor... just like there is enough structure in MF2 to not implement the entire range of HTML semantics
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hhalpin despite JSON having by far the largest user community
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cwebber2 <mf2-community> what war
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cwebber2 <ld-community> what war
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kevinmarks harry, have a read of http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
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kevinmarks that might help
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hhalpin Will do.
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tantek hhalpin: really? I still think there are more consumers of RSS than JSON
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hhalpin I really want mf2 to talk to normal JSON, and hope AS2 just slots in as the next Atom for social sites
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csarven kevinmarks Do you feel more reassured about what you wrote every time you drop that URL?
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csarven I don't.
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hhalpin tantek: I believe that's not true
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aaronpk what is "normal json"
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hhalpin Modern web development is typically shipping JSON from HTTP APIs
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elf-pavlik kevinmarks, with schema.org it will not make colisions but what if two people define different agro- properties?
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cwebber2 csarven: that's not helpful communication
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kevinmarks the key point is that we have a consistent, specified, tested, implemented mapping from mf2 to JSON in multiple programming languages already
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hhalpin Please look at Go or any other modern programming paradigm
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rhiaro_ Soooo I have a blog post for comparing as2 with mf2 http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/05/micropubbing-with
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csarven cwebber2 I'm trying to understand what it brings to the table, it is full of FUD
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hhalpin However, there is *clearly* a place for a JSON revision to RSS/Atom
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tantek elf-pavlik: in practice no one besides the Webkit team define -webkit- CSS properties, and no one besides Mozilla define -moz- CSS properties etc.
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kevinmarks If you want to write a critique fo it, I'll read it csarven
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hhalpin If W3C can't do it, there's always IETF since that's where RSS and Atom came from.
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aaronpk hhalpin: there sure is! it's called h-feed ;)
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hhalpin ehe
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cwebber2 okay everyone
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tantek elf-pavlik, therefore, your "what if ..." is a strawman that in practice does not occur
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cwebber2 have fun
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cwebber2 I'm out for now
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hhalpin same here, another meeting!
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csarven kevinmarks Sounds good.
Loqi joined the channel
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kevinmarks harry, point me at an atom or rss feed example please
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elf-pavlik tantek, i know many projects doing open source tools for food networks, many of them didn't even know about each other
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tantek elf-pavlik, i.e. you could try defining some p3k-* properties, and they'd likely just get ignored
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aaronpk WELCOME BACK LOQI GOD SO LAZY
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86071&oldid=86070
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86072&oldid=0
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aaronpk slacker Loqi couldn't even bother showing up to the call
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elf-pavlik now if hey want to make their platforms social, they will all start 'extending' mf with food- or agro- possibly taking very different approaches
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wilkie aaronpk: it literally has only one job haha
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csarven elf-pavlik YAGNI, architecture-astronomy, academic exercise.
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elf-pavlik tantek, ignored by data server which aggregates streams of data?
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csarven Use random strings with prefixes instead.
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tantek hhalpin: note the history there re: IETF, the folks working on Atom (previously "Pie" I think) deliberately REJECTED W3C's invitation because they were afraid it would be SemWeb politicized there, and chose IETF to develop Atom to avoid it becoming SemWebified.
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kevinmarks so, harry, her's your old blog: http://www.harryhalpin.blogspot.com/
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tantek and if we look at what's happening to AS2, here in the WG, it seems their fears were not unfounded.
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kevinmarks here's it's atom http://harryhalpin.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default
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kevinmarks here's that atom as mf2 http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fharryhalpin.blogspot.com%2Ffeeds%2Fposts%2Fdefault
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tantek kevinmarks: did you discover that Atom feed by well-known-path or by follow-your-nose link relation? ;)
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kevinmarks and here's the mf2 as json http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unmung.com%2Ffeed%3Ffeed%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fharryhalpin.blogspot.com%252Ffeeds%252Fposts%252Fdefault&html=&pretty=on
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kevinmarks so if you want a JSON successor to ATOm, there we go
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kevinmarks I used the link relation
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tantek followyournose++
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Loqi followyournose has 1 karma
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tantek wellknownpath--
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kevinmarks the well-known path is http://www.harryhalpin.blogspot.com/atom.xml
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Loqi wellknownpath has -1 karma
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kevinmarks for blogspot
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csarven Entirely orthogonal
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tantek I think KevinMarks just proved that we already have a minimum viable JSON based social data syntax that is effectively already in use!
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kevinmarks harry's blog is so old it predates me adding mf1 to blogger templates
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tantek ... that is also fully backward compatible with Atom! (which helps all the existing Atom implementations - publishers and consumers)
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hhalpin Note that I tried to delete that blog, it was from 2006?
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elf-pavlik tantek, how I can use terms from http://smiy.sourceforge.net/cco/spec/cognitivecharacteristics.html# with Microformats JSON ?
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kevinmarks did you switch? http://www.harryhalpin.blogspot.com/2006/03/getting-down-to-work.html
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kevinmarks I couldn't find another blog for you, there wasn't one linked from http://www.ibiblio.org/hhalpin/
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hhalpin So, again - my point remains, mf2 and RDF both have limited uptake
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tantek elf-pavlik: what's your specific web page you're trying to markup?
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hhalpin Orders of magnitude less than HTTP URIs that produce JSON
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elf-pavlik my homepage already uses it
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hhalpin Thus, the obvious thing to do is map mf2 to JSON
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hhalpin which mf2 does
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csarven elf-pavlik e.g., p-elf-habit
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hhalpin and make sure that mapping works with AS2
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kevinmarks oh hang on https://www.w3.org/blog/author/hhalpin/
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csarven elf-pavlik e.g., p-elf-cco-habit or p-cco-habit
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csarven Whatever you want.
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hhalpin I don't blog, I have Facebook/Twitter/etc. Like most people on the planet now :)
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kevinmarks that supports mf http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fblog%2Fauthor%2Fhhalpin%2F&html=&pretty=on
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aaronpk that's still blogging, just shorter
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hhalpin The fact that my blog from 2005 that I don't use anymore supports mf is not an argument for widespread MF2 adoption
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elf-pavlik i also get closer to publishing personal data using https://github.com/OpenTransport/linked-gtfs/blob/master/gtfs.ttl
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kevinmarks mf1
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hhalpin If there is actually widespread MF2 adoption over JSON, then more people would hear about it.
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elf-pavlik u-gtfs-headsign ?
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hhalpin Again, I'd look at Google Trends here: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=JSON%2C%20microformats%2C%20RDF&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B4
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hhalpin We see clear decline of RDF, microformats constant but small, and JSON growing.
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elf-pavlik hhalpin, do you talk about serializations or vocabularies?
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elf-pavlik both RDF and microformats have JSON serializations
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hhalpin If you add in Linked Data, then you have a small community about the size of the microformats community in terms of searchs.
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elf-pavlik both of them even have two different JSON serializations
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hhalpin That is remaining constant, not growing.
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hhalpin https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=JSON%2C%20microformats%2C%20RDF%2C%20Linked%20Data&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B4
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csarven elf-pavlik Nothing prevents you from using any arbitrary string in class/rel (for obvious intents and purposes). Just don't expect that anyone else will be able to consume and use it appropriately or *understand* what it means. If you want "headsign" or something alike to have wider adoption, you have to go through the mf process and document which markup patterns are currently used on the Web. You then derive a term which resembles that. In a nutshell.
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hhalpin So again, this is a pretty argument for JSON, and a pretty good argument that smaller communities (mf2 and RDF) should co-operate on a common syntax that does not add toooo much RDF-centric features or tooo much mf2 features
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hhalpin Standards are compromises by nature, so I expect a compromise here.
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elf-pavlik i don't want to add it to central blessed registry, i just want to agree on it among people working with public transport domain
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rhiaro_ elf-pavlik++
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Loqi elf-pavlik has 31 karma
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aaronpk then just do it
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csarven elf-pavlik Yeap.. well, you are out of luck. See mf /process
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aaronpk nothing is going to break if you randomly add a property to h-entry if you really want to
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aaronpk also you can add child objects to an h-entry and *really* not break anything
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kevinmarks that is exactly what http://microformats.org/wiki/process is designed to do
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hhalpin OK, gotta go to my next meeting, I would suggest we work out MF2->AS2 first a bit more, and let's try again.
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kevinmarks help people get to agreement
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csarven Of course nothing will break. Which is no different than doing non-mf publishing.
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elf-pavlik can an organization reserve prefix ?
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csarven No
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elf-pavlik with gtfs it may come easier to avoid independent innovation
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csarven "h-" is not some MF trademark.
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csarven So, you can use "h-" or whatever, and still not mean MF in any way.
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csarven It is just a plain string in class. Nothing more, nothing less.
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elf-pavlik but with agro- or food- i see lots of projects which may start modeling same domain indepedently and than need to converge
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csarven It is up to the programmer/consumer to figure out what the intention is with that string.
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csarven It is up to each consumer to interpret the microformats wiki if they want to understand what it means.
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elf-pavlik use case https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax/User_Stories#Converging_vocabulary_terms
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csarven Which may or may not be under a spam attack.
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kevinmarks sure - a lot fo people use u- to mean utility, so if there is an h-* around it gtes mapped to a spurious property
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ben_thatmustbeme tries to read back
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kevinmarks I had that when I marked up the guardian's html the other day
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ben_thatmustbeme graphs can be used to prove anything you like
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ben_thatmustbeme https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=php%2C%20json%2C%20html%2C%20xml&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B4
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elf-pavlik what a big problem you see with allowing to map prefixes to URLs ?
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csarven So, basically, mf expects each consumer to 1) interpret the mf wiki 2) do a bunch of imperative programming to figure things out.
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elf-pavlik so one can define that in this context p3k maps to http://p3k.io/ns/
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kevinmarks I added h-entry markup to their existing page https://gist.githubusercontent.com/kevinmarks/ed0b487635ae02e20727/raw/0b02b2fd7ca02353f6fc3bf4447fcce2bc515822/guardianstoryexamplemf2.html
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csarven So much for the declarative approach.
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kevinmarks and got some spurious properties http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgist.githubusercontent.com%2Fkevinmarks%2Fed0b487635ae02e20727%2Fraw%2F0b02b2fd7ca02353f6fc3bf4447fcce2bc515822%2Fguardianstoryexamplemf2.html&html=&pretty=on
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kevinmarks faux-block-link__overlay, responsive-ratio, faux-block-link__promote, faux-block-link__cta
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csarven Instead of letting the data describe itself.
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csarven So, if you love imperative programming, use microformats.
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kevinmarks which is not a big deal as anyone looking at the parsed output wouldn't eb looking for those properties
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csarven elf-pavlik If you map the properties to URLs, you have yourself RDFa (well almost..)
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kevinmarks not sure I see the connection there
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kevinmarks mf2 is declarative
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kevinmarks but I prefer imperative programming to imperative spec writers
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csarven kevinmarks The webpage doesn't tell you anything about what p-name is or how it could be figured out - it is anti-follow-your-nose.
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elf-pavlik how does Microformat JSON tell difference if to consider value of property u- or p- ?
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csarven So, you are forced to code.
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hhalpin I'm going to note 'follow-your-nose' - if it actually worked - would lead to basically a DOS attack as tons of 'machines' looked up your URL.
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elf-pavlik "email": "mailto:mail@alice.example"
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elf-pavlik u-email or p-email ?
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hhalpin Modern load-balancing could deal with it, but I don't think we should assume there's a magic route to 'understanding' re follow-your-nose
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hhalpin Most people just try to find docs
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: that is not a valid questions
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aaronpk the u- and p- are used in parsing the HTML
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hhalpin So URLs are fine, if centralized, extensions schemes
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tantek hhalpin - that DDOS attack did happen on W3C's XHTML DTDs by Microsoft's XML parser back in the late 1990s if you recall.
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rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: you can't go back from mf2 JSON to html
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rhiaro_ only html to json
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hhalpin Yep.
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hhalpin That is precisely what I'm recalling.
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aaronpk the u- and p- tell the parser where to get the value for the property. the result is "email":"mailto:mail@alice.example"
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csarven elf-pavlik Another thing to note is that, if you go from mf2 to JSON, all the prefixes are lost, you can't go back to the original.
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hhalpin The fact that the RDF community has not realized this simply shows they haven't had massive uptake of their tooling
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elf-pavlik ok, once we have JSON - can we tell if the string value represents URI or human intended label ?
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tantek follow-your-nose is good enough for resources on the web, no need for vocabulary (as every massively successful vocab like HTML, CSS, etc. have demonstrated)
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hhalpin That being said, URLs are obviously useful extension points
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aaronpk wait wait there are two "follow-your-nose" arguments happening here
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hhalpin Just don't expect people to actually follow them in general.
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csarven hhalpin The discussion is particularly around properties being follow-your-nose.
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hhalpin Or if they do, don't *encourage* automated follow-your-nose
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aaronpk hhalpin is saying that following URLs for property names leads to a DOS
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tantek csarven - that's deliberate - the prefixes are merely HTML parsing instructions, not anything semantic.
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csarven Not arbitrary HTTP URLs in HTML documents.
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aaronpk the totally separate issue of follow-your-nose from a home page to find other endpoints is unrelated
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csarven tantek That's perfectly fine. It is a design decision.
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elf-pavlik does value require parsing and regex to tell URI from human intended label?
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: that's a vocab question at that point
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aaronpk not a syntax/serialization question
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csarven hhalpin What tooling? Have you seen http://lod-cloud.net/
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csarven or SPARQL?
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csarven LOD cloud is based on what's crawled - mostly follow-your-nose AFAIK!
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tantek all the most succesful vocabs don't bother with URLs for each term
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elf-pavlik in JSON without using regex one can't tell difference between value of "Aaron" and "https://p3k.io"
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tantek just decent specs
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elf-pavlik we can follow our nose to second but not the first
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: nothing would ever use those two values on a property interchangably
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elf-pavlik nested vcard?
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csarven tantek Define successful.
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csarven vCard is successful, and so is FOAF
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csarven IMO
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hhalpin I define successful as massive uptake
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csarven Define massive
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hhalpin vCard is used everywhere, in for example most mobile phones
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tantek thus the "follow-your-nose" assumption of need for vocabulary terms themselves is both unfounded and false in practice, as well as potentially being an antipattern (developer/usabiliy unfriendly)
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hhalpin FOAF is not.
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elf-pavlik i thought i can put a name of organization (or person) or url
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hhalpin if you haven't realized that, you are living in an echo-chamber
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hhalpin and I suggest getting out
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wilkie lol just put the vocab in the DHT/blockchain
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csarven Right, well, lets just handwave the LOD Cloud out..
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rhiaro_ wilkie++
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tantek wilkie++ for humor. ;)
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Loqi wilkie has 21 karma
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Loqi wilkie has 22 karma
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hhalpin So, basically every OS and most modern APIs consume/produce vCard
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hhalpin that is not the case with FOAF
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: the "author" property is a good example, it would be either a string URL or an h-card object with a value that has the same string URL
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tantek Legion Of Doom?
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hhalpin The LOD cloud is great, but RDF tooling is still poor.
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csarven tantek++ KUTGW
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Loqi tantek has 248 karma
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wilkie well, if you have extensible vocab, presumedly you can request that from the server you see it from instead of a well-known.
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hhalpin Hopefully CrossCloud fixes that
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csarven hhalpin What have you tried to do with RDF?
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hhalpin I worked for Yahoo Research and build their SemSearch system
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hhalpin In course, we realized
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hhalpin 1) Most people don't use RDFa
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elf-pavlik one can't just use "author": "elf Pavlik" ?
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csarven Which years?
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hhalpin They would instead blame us for markup errors
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hhalpin 2008-2009, under Peter Mika
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: show me an example of someone who has done that ;), and no
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csarven Were you sending strict XHTML?
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hhalpin No of course not, because the world doesn't use strict XHTML
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csarven Did you get the HTML/RDFa spec wrong?
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hhalpin No, we got the spec right
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hhalpin PEOPLE failed to use RDFa like the spec
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hhalpin because the spec was complex
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hhalpin and the people didn't use RDF
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wilkie tantek: I'm here to help lol
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hhalpin They just wanted to markup their pages
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csarven If it was such a fail, I'm curious to know why GYM is interested in schema.org with RDFa.
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hhalpin So, that effort led to schema.org
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csarven Why is RDFa at the forefront and the rest is... well, the rest.
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, "org": "W3C" and "org": "http://www.w3.org"
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elf-pavlik i can dereference second but not the first
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hhalpin csarven, RDFa is not a success by any measure
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hhalpin UNLESS you count Facebook "Like"
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: then don't deference the first
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hhalpin But then, David Recordon just considered it a convenient way to put in metadta
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csarven Again, entirely depends on what you are looking for and what your definitions are.
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hhalpin into a header, not RDF
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hhalpin I explained blank nodes to him
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hhalpin His response was "I don't care"
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elf-pavlik so i need to parse the value before knowing if i can follow my nose or not?
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tantek passes wilkie some popcorn
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hhalpin Since Facebook is not using RDF behind the scenes nor do they expect most devs/webmasters to.
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hhalpin This is all well-known.
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csarven If you are worried about blank nodes, I hate to break it to you (well maybe not), but you should check out what happens with MF2 -> RDF.
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: you should probably be sanitizing/checking any value you get from an external source anyway, yes
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hhalpin Second, I recently built a RDF website
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csarven subjects AND properties are blank nodes.
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hhalpin http://digitalsocial.eu/
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hhalpin When we switched from Postgre to RDF
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hhalpin the main effect was massive slowdown
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: "author":"file:///etc/passwd"
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hhalpin And it was very hard to find good JS and Ruby RDF tooling, even with Greg Kellogg's good work
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hhalpin that didn't suffer tremendous performance costs
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hhalpin so I still think RDF has a lot of work to be done.
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csarven hhalpin Depends on if you are putting your eggs on horizontal or vertical search.
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csarven In that case, you may have picked the wrong tech to solve your problem.
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hhalpin Exactly.
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hhalpin So, most folks use JSON, let's get used to it.
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hhalpin Maybe RDF will mature
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csarven So, WHY would you pick the wrong tech for your [problem and then blame the tech?
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hhalpin I hope it does!
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hhalpin Because again, we were investigating RDF
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aaronpk so question. if "most folks use JSON" why are all web pages written in HTML
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hhalpin to see if the tooling had improved since 2009
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csarven RDF doesn't solve everything nor does it claim that.
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hhalpin The answer was "A bit, but not much"
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elf-pavlik Greg joined recent RDFJS telecon, also https://twitter.com/laurens_d_v/status/654395341761069056
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Loqi @laurens_d_v :: The @rdfjs 'brothers' :) on stage #ISWC2015 https://twitter.com/laurens_d_v/status/654395341761069056/photo/1
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hhalpin That is not in general what you are claiming csarven
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hhalpin You are claiming in general other communities are inferior to RDF
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hhalpin That is not clearly true
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csarven If you want your data "Webby" you put RDF at the front.
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hhalpin In fact, if you look at Google Trends, RDF usage has been declining
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csarven Ton of people use relational dbs and use R2RML or whatever.
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hhalpin So, while I think the RDF community is important
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hhalpin it is NOT more important than either JSON or microformats community
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csarven I have NOT claimed that whatsoever.
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hhalpin Typically, social standards failed to come to W3C due to the feeling that people would push RDF on them
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csarven And I don't think you are aware of my MF past.
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hhalpin And their history is with RSS in particular is that 'adding' RDF hurt adoption
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csarven I fought for MF since 2005.
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elf-pavlik needs to run for another call
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hhalpin So I would expect RDF folks simply work well with others.
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hhalpin And realize their community is quite small and not representative of mainstream Web development.
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hhalpin That being said, the same goes for mf2
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csarven [citation needed]
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hhalpin Mainstream Web programming, ala Go, Ruby, etc. uses neither mf or RDF
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hhalpin I believe this is relatively obvious and should be accepted as a baseline starting point when we prioritize design decisions
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hhalpin Trying to "trick" people into using your serialization in a standard - be it mf2, RDF, whatever - doesn't work.
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hhalpin It's a known anti-pattern
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csarven RDF is a language. It is not some syntax.
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hhalpin Instead, mf2 and RDF should compromise and agree on a common JSON syntax they can consume and be happy with.
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csarven Which is precisely why it gives sufficient flexibility to use different syntaxes in different environments.
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csarven Everything is in "triples" (or quads...).
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hhalpin JSON-LD is a syntax and RDF is a language with a formal semantics, however, formal semantics are really only needed for inference, which again, *no one* uses outside the small RDF community
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csarven No one in the RDF community really cares about the syntax.
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hhalpin Even inside the small RDF community, inference is still active research
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hhalpin And mostly doesn't work well or scale
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csarven As long as you speak RDF, they can deal with any syntax.
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csarven Scale to what?
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hhalpin So, at Yahoo! we tried inference, and again with the European Commission
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hhalpin In each case, we had to build custom code for limited subsets
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hhalpin Which defeated the purpose of general purpose formal semantics
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hhalpin So, formal semantics does not equal magic
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hhalpin If anyone thinks it does, there are multiple AI classes that teach this.
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hhalpin In fact, most computer science has given up on formal semantics and moved to statistical machine-learning
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hhalpin Again, this is really obvious unless you are in an echo-chamber
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csarven Orthogonal.
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hhalpin It's not orthogonal, and pushing RDF on standards is a pretty sure way to fail.
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csarven That's your opinion.
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hhalpin RDF will suceed by its own virtues
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csarven It has.
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hhalpin Not via pushing it other communities without their consent.
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hhalpin Well, if it has most mainstream Web developers don't use it.
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hhalpin Again, standards are aimed at the 99%.
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hhalpin Not you and your friends.
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hhalpin This goes for both mf2 and RDF
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csarven All roads lead to RDF. mf2 practically comes half way there - basically the best hting that happened since mf1.
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hhalpin "All roads lead to RDF" is self-evidently not true and also the exact kind of statement that drives most reasonable developers away.
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csarven mf3 will be indistinguishable from RDFa. Mark my words.
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hhalpin For example, RDF still lacks a good first-order logic syntax.
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hhalpin It can't really do lists.
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csarven mf is not even on the map as far as having a uniform query language goes which is intended to work for decentralized web sources.
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csarven It is about a decade behind.. so if/when mf3 comes along.. it will be pretty much obsolete
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hhalpin Anyways, if you can't do lists, I don't expect you to ever really take off. RDF has been under development for 15 years, MF for 10 or so I think.
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hhalpin So again, both communities should continue to evolve
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csarven hhalpin It can do lists, but it is not fun to play with them. Again, it is not meant to work in terms of trees bug graphs.
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csarven s/bug/but
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hhalpin And for the time being, map to JSON
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melvster tantek++
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hhalpin If you really disagree with that, I suggest you think about why you are in the WG
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Loqi tantek has 249 karma
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csarven I hate to break it to you, but MF is RDF in HTML. Look it up.
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hhalpin No, it's not - and if you want to see standardization failure, I suggest GRDDL :)
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hhalpin I believe the user-base consisted entirely of about 6 people.
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hhalpin Anyways, I think the points I made are both in the charter and entirely self-evident.
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hhalpin I suggest people from mf2 and RDF settle down and agree to work with each other on a common JSON format
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csarven I don't think anyone really has an issue with that.
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csarven So I don' tsee why you are putting this out there as if we don't.
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hhalpin Yes, because some people think their favorite language is *more* special :)
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csarven Each "camp" acknowledges what the other is doing (sufficiently enough), and happy enough with JSON.
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hhalpin And push without any acknowledgement of the small size of their community for various special purpose features to be added.
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hhalpin Its really counter-productive
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hhalpin And seems more like, as cwebber put it, a religious endeavour than a standardization endeavour
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melvster csarven++
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Loqi csarven has -3 karma
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csarven There is a distinction between saying why "my" favourite text-editor, code, language is better than the other, and some commonality that we are willing ot work on.
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hhalpin So, lets keep features minimal, work with JSON, and acknowledge that mf folks have some things right, and so does RDF folks, but the world is using JSON.
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hhalpin This is self-evident.
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csarven So, just because people are FOR mf or RDF, it doesn't follow that their views are infinitely better than everytihng else -- at least I don't.
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csarven We have preferences.
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csarven The world is using HTML ;)
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melvster csarven: as DanC once said, "the important word in semantic web, is 'web'"
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csarven But happy to *exchange* JSON between endpoints or at least convert to JSON for some tasks.
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csarven melvster++
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melvster im really happy to use MF for what it does, it just doesnt do everything I need, that's where RDF comes to the rescue
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Loqi melvster has 18 karma
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csarven In this day and age, mf doesn't bring anything to the table.
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melvster i leverage MF properties as part of the indieweb community for the indieweb features, and linked data properties for those features ... both are good, but LD is just soooo much more powerful, then Im a power user, so very happy, id like everyone to use the best tools for their needs and work together
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csarven If you want some structured data in HTML, use RDFa.
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melvster yes
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melvster I also use RDFa in my profile together with microformats, the more standards, the more features you get!
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melvster Im not sure the either/or mindset is the most productive way
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melvster and >>> or
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melvster linked data interoperates with everything, that's the nicest part about it, no restrictions
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melvster tantek: agree with you re rss/atom ... there was a quite ironic shouting contest at the weekend on that topic at redentralize in london
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kevinmarks !tell hhalpin do you have the slides from https://youtu.be/BOLIuBr_2uM online?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/212
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jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/213
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jasnell cwebber2: ping
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jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/214
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jasnell https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/215